1. Hypatia 3.0

I have recently uploaded version 3.0 of my Hypatia RPN Calculator, www.hypatia-rpn.net. I'm mentioning it here because a) it’s entirely written in Phix, and b) because it’s a console program.

I know that the prevailing opinion here is that no one is interested in console programs anymore, and that therefore the fact that Phix can be used to write them is of little importance. But, (if the server statistics can be trusted) Hypatia has more than 200 downloads per month, in the past month (December 2023) for instance there were 406. What I do not get is feedback — there may be thousands of people out there who use it, who may or may not be happy with it, or there may be zero, I do not know. But, the program gets downloaded, it works, it has a lot of features that are not easily found anywhere else, and I think it is reasonably useful. That it doesn’t have a GUI is because I wouldn’t know how to write it, but also because, the way it works, it doesn’t need one. (The interface depends on video_config, get_position and position, though.)

What I’m trying to argue here is that console programs have a right to exist, that Phix is perfectly suited to create them (a few things didn’t work as I wanted with Euphoria), and that this is an important feature of Phix which I think deserves to be appreciated. Or, just let me say that I appreciate it. Thank you!

Robert

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2. Re: Hypatia 3.0

I have not tried Hypatia , but i agree the requirements for non-console windows is huge. And the list of features people accept is very small and set in their own concrete.

I write all my programs for "console", but i don't do RPN.

A clean non-scripted webpage too, like mine was.

Kat

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3. Re: Hypatia 3.0

RobertS said...

more than 200 downloads per month

Good to know.

RobertS said...

it doesn’t have a GUI is because I wouldn’t know how to write it

As it happens, am currently neck-deep in a new GUI, let me know if you'd like one, and into the bargain make it runnable in a web browser (screenshots/links would help).
Disclaimer: Will not happen overnight. Console apps usually need restructuring to run in a GUI/browser, there being no "stop the world while I accept input".

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4. Re: Hypatia 3.0

RPN isn’t a problem — you’d need 5 minutes to learn it, another 10 for Hypatia’s idiosyncratic enhancements, and after half an hour you’d wonder why anyone uses infix notation, when RPN is so much more logical and elegant. :) Hypatia’s commands and script language take more time, though, and are only worth the effort if you happen to need what you can do with them.

What I mostly wanted to say, though, is that all the posts here are about developing Euphoria and/or Phix — bug fixes, new concepts, new features, the future — no one talks about using the language, about the projects they use it for, about the programs/apps they create with it, about what Euphoria and/or Phix are good for, as they are, not in some distant future when some new features will maybe have been implemented. I also think this would get visitors and potential users more interested. Of course developers need a place to exchange ideas and discuss problems and solutions, but, through nobody’s fault, this place here doesn’t make users feel welcome — and without users, a language can hardly thrive … But I guess I start to repeat myself, so, end of rant.

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5. Re: Hypatia 3.0

petelomax said...

As it happens, am currently neck-deep in a new GUI, let me know if you'd like one, and into the bargain make it runnable in a web browser (screenshots/links would help).
Disclaimer: Will not happen overnight. Console apps usually need restructuring to run in a GUI/browser, there being no "stop the world while I accept input".

A GUI would certainly be great, particularly if it comes with a GUI IDE, like I used more than 25 years ago with Visual Basic, or like the one that Judith Evans had been working on long ago …

I honestly don’t really see the point of a program running in a browser, but that I fail to see it doesn’t mean it isn’t a good thing, so, yeah!

Hypatia, though, is text-based to its core — giving it a GUI would just be a cosmetic operation that hardly seems worth the effort, unless you change the whole concept until it becomes a different though not necessarily more useful program (which neither I nor anyone else is ever going to write).

Anyway, yes, sure, while I’m glad to have found in Phix such a great tool for creating console programs, I’d certainly welcome the possibility to easily create GUI programs, too — thank you for working on it!

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6. Re: Hypatia 3.0

RobertS said...

What I mostly wanted to say, though, is that all the posts here are about developing Euphoria and/or Phix — bug fixes, new concepts, new features, the future — no one talks about using the language, about the projects they use it for, about the programs/apps they create with it, about what Euphoria and/or Phix are good for, as they are,

I cannot speak for anyone else, but after receiving feedback here, i'd go and delete megabytes of source code i had proudly written. For instance, the code for sharing variables' content in real time between independently running OE programs, i deleted it all. That forever put an end to me making a small Ai. I have not written any code in any language since.

Kat

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7. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

I cannot speak for anyone else, but after receiving feedback here, i'd go and delete megabytes of source code i had proudly written.

This is very sad. What kind of feedback can do this? And, it makes me wonder if I should be glad that I do not get feedback, or it might have this effect on me, too …? I'll take it as a warning, thank you!

Robert

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8. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

For instance, the code for sharing variables' content in real time between independently running OE programs,

FWIW there are (were?) a few competing implementations of this. I still have mine, based on top of my threads.eu library + BSD sockets (which in turn was based on the use of fork() )

katsmeow said...

I cannot speak for anyone else, but after receiving feedback here, i'd go and delete megabytes of source code i had proudly written. i deleted it all.

Indeed, your experience seems to be unique. Or more accurately, your response.

katsmeow said...

I have not written any code in any language since.

I think this kind of drives the point home - if it's just feedback from one place regarding one set of code (e.g. a library, etc) written in one language, why stop altogether? There are online communities for different flavours of BASIC, for Delphi, even for things based on the mIRC scripting language.

katsmeow said...

That forever put an end to me making a small Ai.

Kat

It's been so long that my memory is blurry, but I think it's worth pointing out that I seem to remember the mIRC-based Tiggr being around for quite some time after this.

RobertS said...

This is very sad. What kind of feedback can do this?

Without naming names, there was a very opinionated fellow who had a habit of stating on the IRC channel some things very bluntly. Things like "seems pretty useless to me" and "is such an incompetent chanop". Like, no filter at all. (In this guy's defense though, he was a tween (preteen) when he wrote this.)

I wouldn't condone such behaviour, but I'd hope that most of us could also be able to push thru and continue doing what we enjoy despite encountering such things.

RobertS said...

And, it makes me wonder if I should be glad that I do not get feedback, or it might have this effect on me, too …? I'll take it as a warning, thank you!

Robert

And for the record it's been at least a decade since that fellow has been around, if memory serves correctly. The other thing might be having to deal with highly opinionated members of the Dev Team - but I believe nowadays only Greg and myself - and petelomax as an honorary member - are active here on this forum. And I don't do much dev anymore, so if you can get along with Greg and Pete, you should be fine.

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9. Re: Hypatia 3.0

Jim and i disagree a lot. There's 2 other devs still around : Ryan and Euphoric.

Granted a lot of the best talent left, and due to upgrades over the years in OE, a lot of their code no longer runs.

Tiggr's mirc code greatly suffered the delete button. I still have the databases, but there's no code to use them, and no user interface on irc or http now. Every time i used my irc.e, i remembered the way it was greeted over the years on this forum.

Kat

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10. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

Jim and i disagree a lot. There's 2 other devs still around : Ryan and Euphoric.

Ah, good point. euphoric started the other thread, quite embarassing that I forgot to mention him.

ryanj - well would love to see him on here again. I don't think he's posted since June 2023, https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/137921.wc

katsmeow said...

Granted a lot of the best talent left, and due to upgrades over the years in OE, a lot of their code no longer runs.

Another good point.

katsmeow said...

Tiggr's mirc code greatly suffered the delete button. I still have the databases, but there's no code to use them, and no user interface on irc or http now.

Actually, that's not so bad. I remember this quote - "give me your flowcharts, and I still won't understand your tables. give me your tables, and I won't need your flowcharts, I'll be able to figure it out myself."

Not that I personally would take or ask for the Tiggr databases, but it's a hopeful sign.

katsmeow said...

Every time i used my irc.e, i remembered the way it was greeted over the years on this forum.

Kat

I have a vague recollection of this. As I described in https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/137611.wc there was a lot of competition by other devs on the dev team who later never finished the project. In retrospect, the effort might have been better spent polishing your irc.e and getting it ready to be added to the stdlib, but hindsight is 20/20

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11. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

… so if you can get along with Greg and Pete, you should be fine.

Thank you, I am fine! I just wish there would be more talk here about things that get actually done with Euphoria/Phix — who actually uses it, and how, and why, and for what purposes? This might draw and inspire potential new users more than all the discussions of possible new features in some future releases?

Btw, I've just uploaded Hypatia 3.2 — www.hypatia-rpn.net — can't help it, when a new idea pops up in my head, whether anybody needs it or not, I have to implement it …

Robert

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12. Re: Hypatia 3.0

RobertS said...

... I just wish there would be more talk here about things that get actually done with Euphoria/Phix — who actually uses it, and how, and why, and for what purposes? This might draw and inspire potential new users more than all the discussions of possible new features in some future releases? ... Robert

Hallo Robert
this is what I'am working on (playing with)blink

https://github.com/andizk4kx/ArduLink/blob/main/img/screenshot_main.jpg
https://github.com/andizk4kx/ArduLink

Small program that communicates with an Arduino via Modbus. This is not really a project. Rather, it is old parts put together under a new hat. It's easier for me to use the old stuff than to start from scratch. The hat here is Phix and in particular the cffi system (which helped me with Windoes and the 64bit world) and the object orientation that allows me to try out new concepts. I am mainly interested in object orientation in Phix.

Thanks to Pete Lomax for Phix. Thanks to Deepl for the translation (my English is getting worse and worse)blink

Andreas

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13. Re: Hypatia 3.0

andreasWagner said...

Small program that communicates with an Arduino via Modbus.

Fascinating! Looks great, and so utterly different from anything that I've ever done, or know anything about (including OO and C). But that's what I had meant — seeing what different things can be done with Euphoria/Phix might make people interested in the language, or inspire them to do more with it. I hope we'll see some more here, though it would be nice to have a place where code and programs written in Euphoria/Phix could be presented and viewed, as was the case in the good old days of Euphoria 2 and 3 …

And yes, DeepL is amazing, how did we ever do without it?

Robert

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14. Re: Hypatia 3.0

andreasWagner said...

Small program that communicates with an Arduino via Modbus.

Modbus is a Google thing now? So you cannot talk directly to an Arduino with OE on a windoze computer? I am confused, because Wikipedia says Modbus is (was?) a Modicon thing (Modicon no longer existing), which uses ethernet or almost any serial protocol? Why can't i find such a thing on Ebay?

RobertS said...

And yes, DeepL is amazing, how did we ever do without it?

Well, i wrote a translator for Tiggr, that used several online services as resources. Tiggr's interface was on irc, of course, and i wrote a http client in mirc for tapping the internet. A difference between the online services vs Tiggr is Tiggr could download data and learn from it, such as trapping phrases rather than do literal translations. German, Spanish, Portuguese, English, Italian. Just another block of code i deleted years ago.

Kat

PS : i just tried to upload code to show how i got along way back in the olden daze, but OE's pastebin crashed.

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15. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

PS : i just tried to upload code to show how i got along way back in the olden daze, but OE's pastebin crashed.

Embarrassing indeed. (For the devs/website maintainers, that is.)

andreasWagner said...

Small program that communicates with an Arduino via Modbus.

katsmeow said...

I am confused, because Wikipedia says Modbus is (was?) a Modicon thing

Looks like it currently is an OSI standard.

katsmeow said...

(Modicon no longer existing)

Seems like Modicon's successor Schneider Electric still maintains a FAQ page about it though: https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA168406/

katsmeow said...

Modbus is a Google thing now?

Certainly they seem to have a lot of stuff related to it, such as https://code.google.com/archive/p/simple-modbus/ and https://code.google.com/archive/p/modbus-tk/

katsmeow said...

So you cannot talk directly to an Arduino with OE on a windoze computer? which uses ethernet or almost any serial protocol?

I should think it's possible. From the instructions on here one can use Python to talk to an Arduino, and the library used (PySerial) is specfically mentioned as supporting windoze: https://projecthub.arduino.cc/ansh2919/serial-communication-between-python-and-arduino-663756

Given the same OS, I can't see anything special about Python that'd allow it to talk to a serial port better than Eu.

katsmeow said...

Why can't i find such a thing on Ebay?

Well, Modbus itself is just a protocol, not even software, whereas typically I think Ebay sells more of physical products. Though I have bought software on Ebay before.

RobertS said...

And yes, DeepL is amazing, how did we ever do without it?

katsmeow said...

Well, i wrote a translator for Tiggr, that used several online services as resources.

Yep, I remember things like Babelfish quite fondly.

katsmeow said...

Tiggr's interface was on irc, of course,

Also remembered quite fondly.

katsmeow said...

and i wrote a http client in mirc for tapping the internet.

mirc I remember far less fondly.

katsmeow said...

A difference between the online services vs Tiggr is Tiggr could download data and learn from it, such as trapping phrases rather than do literal translations. German, Spanish, Portuguese, English, Italian.

Adding something complimentary on top of and beyond what the original servicers could do.

katsmeow said...

Just another block of code i deleted years ago.

Kat

Gone the way of Babelfish, Altavista, etc.. and likely just as obsolete by now.

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16. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Why can't i find such a thing on Ebay?

Well, Modbus itself is just a protocol, not even software, whereas typically I think Ebay sells more of physical products. Though I have bought software on Ebay before.

But there is https://github.com/andizk4kx/ArduLink/blob/main/eumodbus.e , so the next step to making a dollar with OE would be to sell a working OE app to talk with a programmed Arduino?

Kat

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17. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

But there is https://github.com/andizk4kx/ArduLink/blob/main/eumodbus.e , so the next step to making a dollar with OE would be to sell a working OE app to talk with a programmed Arduino?

Kat

As good a plan as I've ever heard.

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18. Re: Hypatia 3.0

RobertS said...

And yes, DeepL is amazing, how did we ever do without it?

Robert

Some of us did things like

https://openeuphoria.org/pastey/359.wc

But i still cannot use OE to get a notice the water pump is running, or the battery charger shut off, or it's raining, or the microwave is done, or the cellar is at 34°F, or etc... or to send control code back to those systems.

Kat

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19. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

But i still cannot use OE to get a notice the water pump is running, or the battery charger shut off, or it's raining, or the microwave is done, or the cellar is at 34°F, or etc... or to send control code back to those systems.

Kat

Hey, at least if you can get it done with mirc, amrite?

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20. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

But i still cannot use OE to get a notice the water pump is running, or the battery charger shut off, or it's raining, or the microwave is done, or the cellar is at 34°F, or etc... or to send control code back to those systems.

Kat

Hey, at least if you can get it done with mirc, amrite?

Mirc does not have a way to communicate with the real world either, except for keybd, mouse, sounds. Trying to write out through windows just seems impossible, what with no one doing it. And hacking the keybd by putting a relay across each key is extremely slow.

Kat

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21. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

Some of us did things like

https://openeuphoria.org/pastey/359.wc

But i still cannot use OE to get a notice the water pump is running, or the battery charger shut off, or it's raining, or the microwave is done, or the cellar is at 34°F, or etc... or to send control code back to those systems.

Kat

I don't know your need but if you want to interact with a dedicated server via an API, some of us have written code to drive a REST API from the client side. Mine is based on libcurl.

Jean-Marc

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22. Re: Hypatia 3.0

Nevermind.

Kat

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23. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jmduro said...
katsmeow said...

Some of us did things like

https://openeuphoria.org/pastey/359.wc

But i still cannot use OE to get a notice the water pump is running, or the battery charger shut off, or it's raining, or the microwave is done, or the cellar is at 34°F, or etc... or to send control code back to those systems.

Kat

I don't know your need but if you want to interact with a dedicated server via an API, some of us have written code to drive a REST API from the client side. Mine is based on libcurl.

Jean-Marc

Ok, i have thought about it for a day, and still cannot see how this lets you know if a pump is running or how much current it is pulling. Or how much water is in the open tank, or it's timpucher. Or any other situation i have mentioned. I see no connection between me writing code and the state of the remote 8055/6522/74_245/574 chips.

Or how this is the correct thread for a long-dead beaten horse.

Kat

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24. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

Ok, i have thought about it for a day, and still cannot see how this lets you know if a pump is running or how much current it is pulling. Or how much water is in the open tank, or it's timpucher. Or any other situation i have mentioned. I see no connection between me writing code and the state of the remote 8055/6522/74_245/574 chips.

Or how this is the correct thread for a long-dead beaten horse.

Kat

https://sigma-shop.com/ has USB, ethernet, and RF433 sensors and relays, all you have to do is write a Euphoria program which can read and write a COM port.

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/tank-level-sensors/

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/current-sensors/

https://www.eeci.com/usb.htm <- analog to digital usb

https://www.swiftsensors.com/

Most of these will cost around $50 to $100 per sensor. The same thing can be done with a $3 ESP8266, a cheap sensor, and WIFI. You know how to parse a web page to extract data that you show on there.

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25. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

Ok, i have thought about it for a day, and still cannot see how this lets you know if a pump is running or how much current it is pulling. Or how much water is in the open tank, or it's timpucher. Or any other situation i have mentioned. I see no connection between me writing code and the state of the remote 8055/6522/74_245/574 chips.

Or how this is the correct thread for a long-dead beaten horse.

Kat

So if I understand well, you are looking for an Arduino or Raspberry Pi board with so called "hats" to gain control over non driven electronic circuits, like this Automation HAT for Pi:

https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/automation-hat?variant=30712316554

Jean-Marc

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26. Re: Hypatia 3.0

Thank you for that. But that's over $200 for a Pi plus hat plus power plus case plus fan/heatsinks and one lan port for each set of three relays, and no parport connection! Then it's still not remotely operated, i would still need to goto the cellar to check the Pi readout, at which point i don't need the Pi plus keybd plus lcd screen down there to check the water level down there.

How is it that OE can check the status of which buttons i press on this keybd without spending $200 to build a separate computer with 8 GB of ram on a new linux computer running Python?

In 1984 i had two 19" 3U rack boxes full of cards hooked to a C64, but i cannot run a cussed thing from any wintel computer i have.

Kat

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27. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

Thank you for that. But that's over $200 for a Pi plus hat plus power plus case plus fan/heatsinks and one lan port for each set of three relays, and no parport connection! Then it's still not remotely operated, i would still need to goto the cellar to check the Pi readout, at which point i don't need the Pi plus keybd plus lcd screen down there to check the water level down there.

How is it that OE can check the status of which buttons i press on this keybd without spending $200 to build a separate computer with 8 GB of ram on a new linux computer running Python?

In 1984 i had two 19" 3U rack boxes full of cards hooked to a C64, but i cannot run a cussed thing from any wintel computer i have.

Kat

The computer (especially Windows computers) became an appliance 20-30 years ago.

First reason: computers are too expensive to let them anywhere near "danger". Electricity is dangerous. Two more reasons: people are stupid, and manufacturers hate to get lots of fried computers returned for "warranty repairs". Another reason: not very many people want to do things like this, so there's no incentive to get UL approval for something that you'll only sell occasionally. And most people who do buy stuff like this have to meet requirements of the NEC.

You can buy industrial controllers which meet code and are UL approved. This gets expensive fast: https://www.plctable.com/plc-hardware-components/ https://ww2.awc-inc.com/product/siemens-6es72141bg400xb0-cpu/1479007

If you aren't afraid to DIY, look at the Arduino Leonardo - 20 digital I/O,( 7 can do PWM for motor speed control or light dimming) and 7 analog inputs. $16 at Amazon. This can send text to your computer as if it was a HID keyboard, so you could read the status of the various ports, and whatever text you wanted to your Eu program, e.g. value of one or more inputs...etc. Of course these inputs are limited to 5 volts. So you're going to need to design sensors that won't fry stuff with higher voltages.

Bi-directional*may* be possible - read as if it was a keyboard, and write to ports on the Leonardo, but it's probably easier to use a second Leonardo or other Arduino along with optical-isolated relays to do the output handling.

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28. Re: Hypatia 3.0

irv said...

This can send text to your computer as if it was a HID keyboard,

That lets out digitizing the outputs of Tektronix 5a26/5a14 in real time at 20Msps.

irv said...

optical-isolated relays to do the output handling.

I have boxes of relays and low-level signal transformers, and reels of optocouplers and 8/16bit latches. Etc. I've been known to drill aluminum blocks, secured to ground, with Ne-2 bulbs at one end and phototransistors at the other end, for when it mattered. And strings of 100k resistors. Or using generator/invertor to float off ground when leaks were inevitable.

What i cannot figure out is why https://openeuphoria.org/docs/std_io.html is useless except with DIN-9 connectors and MS-DOS. This is the time of USB and 64bit Windows.

Kat

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29. Re: Hypatia 3.0

irv said...

Arduino Leonardo

Based on the ATmega32U4 which Tiggr has data on. Clean up the database drool, Jimcbrown!

ATmega32U4= [!what][!avr] The low-power automotive Atmel 8-bit AVR RISC-based microcontroller featuring 32KB self-programming flash program memory, 2.5KB SRAM, 1KB EEPROM, USB 2.0 full-speed/low speed device, 12-channel 10-bit A/D-converter, and JTAG interface for on-chip-debug. The device achieves up to 16 MIPS throughput at 16 MHz. 2.7 - 5.5 Volt operation.

Some things i can do, some things i cannot do.

Kat

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30. Re: Hypatia 3.0

irv said...

This can send text to your computer as if it was a HID keyboard,

katsmeow said...

What i cannot figure out is why https://openeuphoria.org/docs/std_io.html is useless

Err? Seems like that should work. I can enter text from my keyboard all the time and have it read by stdio.

I also think irv's extremely thorough explanation on why modern computers are deliberately handicapped in terms of things like direct access to these sort of things, makes a lot of sense and is quite relevant.

katsmeow said...

What i cannot figure out is why https://openeuphoria.org/docs/std_io.html is useless except with DIN-9 connectors

This is the time of USB

In fact I use Eu with my USB keyboard all the time, and have no problem with this. I just let the OS do all the work and present the input as stdin to Eu.

katsmeow said...

and MS-DOS.

Kat

This one I understand the least, considering that OE has not supported MS-DOS for quite a good few years.

katsmeow said...

Based on the ATmega32U4 which Tiggr has data on.

ATmega32U4= [!what][!avr] The low-power automotive Atmel 8-bit AVR RISC-based microcontroller featuring 32KB self-programming flash program memory, 2.5KB SRAM, 1KB EEPROM, USB 2.0 full-speed/low speed device, 12-channel 10-bit A/D-converter, and JTAG interface for on-chip-debug. The device achieves up to 16 MIPS throughput at 16 MHz. 2.7 - 5.5 Volt operation.

Some things i can do, some things i cannot do.

Kat

Yup, will wait to see what you do with this.

katsmeow said...

Clean up the database drool, Jimcbrown!

Ha, nice one. I knew you still had a database (by some perhaps nonstandard definition of "database") somewhere!

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31. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

Err? Seems like that should work. I can enter text from my keyboard all the time and have it read by stdio.

I also think irv's extremely thorough explanation on why modern computers are deliberately handicapped in terms of things like direct access to these sort of things, makes a lot of sense and is quite relevant.

katsmeow said...

What i cannot figure out is why https://openeuphoria.org/docs/std_io.html is useless except with DIN-9 connectors

This is the time of USB

In fact I use Eu with my USB keyboard all the time, and have no problem with this. I just let the OS do all the work and present the input as stdin to Eu.

In both cases, i mean as a generic interface, not specifically made for only a Centronics printer or 102-key HID.

One great reason i had for data logging was an intermittant electrical issue with my 35 year old car. A few days ago it became less intermittant, and the car had to be carried home. If i had the logger, i'd be able to rewind events and get a clue closer to the problem. While parked on the side of the highway, two local morons stopped, both agreed the camshaft wasn't turning, neither thought to open the filler cap and simply look at the rocker arms to verify they were wrong. Neither could figure that the pistons moving with valves hung open would be very noisey. It reminded me of the way a committee here must decide if i know what i want and if it's a good idea or not. No one has a whatever, so having one must be a stupid idea. 640k is enough for anyone. Like me talking about cell phone in 1975, the rebuttal was no one has one, and you could always use the pay phone down at the gas station.

Kat

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32. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

Yup, will wait to see what you do with this.

Nothing. Not a thing. If i figure out the Leonardo stuff, i still have nothing on the wintel machine to receive from or talk to the Leonardo, because it's not a keybd. And Irv thinks i'll hook a spark plug wire into something designed for 3.3v, or maybe someone will, so i should be denied access. Even if that means OE not having any generic interface which i asked for, because *i* asked for it.

Kat

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33. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...
jimcbrown said...

Yup, will wait to see what you do with this.

Nothing. Not a thing. If i figure out the Leonardo stuff, i still have nothing on the wintel machine to receive from or talk to the Leonardo, because it's not a keybd. And Irv thinks i'll hook a spark plug wire into something designed for 3.3v, or maybe someone will, so i should be denied access. Even if that means OE not having any generic interface which i asked for, because *i* asked for it.

Kat

I don't want to lecture anyone or appear pushy, but every Arduino offers a "generic interface", a virtual com port that can be used like a normal physical one, i.e. anyone can communicate with an Arduino via the USB port.
https://www.arduino.cc/reference/en/language/functions/communication/serial/
This is how the Arduinos are programmed with the Arduino IDE. You only need a serial library for OE. http://rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?win=on&keywords=serial
Or use Modbus via the Com port, as in my toy project. However, my toy project does not work with OE only with Phix. I have added a circuit diagram. (I am not a Picasso.)
https://github.com/andizk4kx/ArduLink/blob/main/uno/ArduLink.pdf

Andreas

Or you can take a look at this. Ready to use solutions.
https://www.electronic-software-shop.com/lng/en/hardware/

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34. Re: Hypatia 3.0

andreasWagner said...

Or you can take a look at this. Ready to use solutions.
https://www.electronic-software-shop.com/lng/en/hardware/

Thank you, Andreas!

I was excited to see the USB-µPIO , this is using the same words i have used before, many years ago. Have you interfaced with these using Phix or OE, or Eu?

I sent email to the company to ask more questions. I saw the mention of LPT only once, and the speed of their ADC and usb combination is merely 8ms per sample.

I interfaced 100's of channels at one time to the C64, it blows my mind the modern computer is so limited!

Kat

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35. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

I interfaced 100's of channels at one time to the C64, it blows my mind the modern computer is so limited!

Kat

Ditto. I mean, irv did explain why very well, but knowing the reason why doesn't make the fact of it any less mind-blowing in this case.

jimcbrown said...

Yup, will wait to see what you do with this.

katsmeow said...

Nothing. Not a thing. If i figure out the Leonardo stuff, i still have nothing on the wintel machine to receive from or talk to the Leonardo, because it's not a keybd.

Oh well. Hopefully andi's reference helps out here (or perhaps replaces it altogether?)

katsmeow said...

And Irv thinks i'll hook a spark plug wire into something designed for 3.3v, or maybe someone will,

I think it's more the second one (that someone else will - I mean you can find YouTube videos of folks trying to eat Tide pods online, so spark plug wires and 3.3v might be too much of an ask).

katsmeow said...

No one has a whatever, so having one must be a stupid idea.

Again, more about protecting the Tide pod eaters.

Also I suspect that you're a unique market of one - which is cool, but alas less profitable for businesses. A lot of good ideas are unprofitable, sadly.

katsmeow said...

so i should be denied access.

More like you were collateral damage than a deliberate target.

katsmeow said...

Even if that means OE not having any generic interface which i asked for,

katsmeow said...

In both cases, i mean as a generic interface, not specifically made for only a Centronics printer or 102-key HID.

So this is where my lack of recent windoze experience (something I'm otherwise thankful for) is a problem. On nix, OE has a really good generic interface - it's so easy to redirect stdin and stdout to some other kind of nonstandard device because of the builtin support from the OS for that kind of stuff.

katsmeow said...

because *i* asked for it.

Kat

You asked, and irv provided. You asked again, and andi provided. (Granted, hardware rather than an OE library or other OE code, but even so, this means for this fortnight, your score is two for two.)

katsmeow said...

One great reason i had for data logging was an intermittant electrical issue with my 35 year old car. A few days ago it became less intermittant, and the car had to be carried home. If i had the logger, i'd be able to rewind events and get a clue closer to the problem. While parked on the side of the highway, two local morons stopped, both agreed the camshaft wasn't turning, neither thought to open the filler cap and simply look at the rocker arms to verify they were wrong.

Ouch.

katsmeow said...

Neither could figure that the pistons moving with valves hung open would be very noisey.

Double ouch.

katsmeow said...

Like me talking about cell phone in 1975,

Luckily folks like Martin Cooper of Motorola were way ahead of you back on 1973/04/03.

katsmeow said...

the rebuttal was no one has one,

That's why mobiles can call landlines

katsmeow said...

and you could always use the pay phone down at the gas station.

Dumb. What if you're stranded in the Arizona desert and don't know how to get to the nearest gas station (or had a leak and now don't have enough gas to get there, or had multiple flat tires) and leaving your car without water is now a life threatening task? Ditto for folks stranded in a snowdrift in the middle of a major snowstorm.

katsmeow said...

640k is enough for anyone.

Kat

In fairness to Gates, he never actually said that.

katsmeow said...

It reminded me of the way a committee here must decide if i know what i want

I'm not sure if that was ever the case. It's more like, the committee here didn't know what you wanted because each member would say that that individual member understood what you wanted, but then it turned out everyone on the committee had a completely different idea of what you wanted, and couldn't come to a compromise on that point.

Well, not just regarding you. On basically everything related to Eu and OE.

katsmeow said...

and if it's a good idea or not.

To quote a former Enron executive, the best revenge is success.

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36. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...
andreasWagner said...

Or you can take a look at this. Ready to use solutions.
https://www.electronic-software-shop.com/lng/en/hardware/

Thank you, Andreas!

I was excited to see the USB-µPIO , this is using the same words i have used before, many years ago. Have you interfaced with these using Phix or OE, or Eu?...

No, the company has its own software and a graphical development environment including compiler (ProfiLab-Expert).
As I said, a ready-made solution.

katsmeow said...

...I sent email to the company to ask more questions. I saw the mention of LPT only once, and the speed of their ADC and usb combination is merely 8ms per sample.

I interfaced 100's of channels at one time to the C64, it blows my mind the modern computer is so limited!

Kat

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37. Re: Hypatia 3.0

It's not ready-made solution for the problem as i described it. First obvious issue is the data is stored (um, is it stored?) and displayed only as they see fit, i cannot munge it, make decisions on it, using OE. Second, unknown if the acquisition time or usb transit time can be improved, at the moment ADC is only 125 samples per second, pretty far from the solution i was looking for. I am pretty sure my camera uploads images on usb faster than one byte every 8ms (6.7 hours for a 3MB image? no.). Third, with 5bit ports, time to send 8bits to/from an 8bit DAC chip (or anything else) will be doubled, and for a 16bit ADC, as supplied in a "ready-made solution" itself, takes 4x longer than it should (send 5bits + 5bits + 5bits + 1bit).

To me, the simplest attachment would be a shift register and a set of latches: data in and data out. (And some support and glue logic.)

Nitpick it away Jimcbrown.

Kat

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38. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

Nitpick it away Jimcbrown.

Kat

I wasn't going to, as I don't have too much regarding this topic, but since you insist, who am I to refuse?

katsmeow said...

It's not ready-made solution for the problem as i described it.

Yeah, think andi was just saying it had a ready-made solution for andi's own uses, and hence that's why andi hasn't explored trying OE/Phix with it yet.

katsmeow said...

First obvious issue is the data is stored (um, is it stored?) and displayed only as they see fit, i cannot munge it, make decisions on it,

Hmm. Seems like this sort of thing should be possible if a full compiler and IDE environment is provided.. Might need more details from andi on how to make use of them to do this.

katsmeow said...

Second, unknown if the acquisition time or usb transit time can be improved, at the moment ADC is only 125 samples per second, pretty far from the solution i was looking for. I am pretty sure my camera uploads images on usb faster than one byte every 8ms (6.7 hours for a 3MB image? no.).

Third, with 5bit ports, time to send 8bits to/from an 8bit DAC chip (or anything else) will be doubled, and for a 16bit ADC, as supplied in a "ready-made solution" itself, takes 4x longer than it should (send 5bits + 5bits + 5bits + 1bit).

Sounds legit. Wonder if multiple devices and parallizing helps here (for example having 1000 devices and wiring them all up might let you send 125,000 samples per second or a 3MB image in under 10 seconds).

katsmeow said...

To me, the simplest attachment would be a shift register and a set of latches: data in and data out. (And some support and glue logic.)

Alas, this statement is beyond my ability to nitpick away.

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39. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Like me talking about cell phone in 1975,

Luckily folks like Martin Cooper of Motorola were way ahead of you back on 1973/04/03.

Mobile radio transmission was frequently handed off between fixed land stations routinely with aircraft and ships, but it was manual because the zoned land stations had no transparent cross links. No need to discuss that with you, of course.

Did you have a cell phone in 1975?

Was your sterio remote controlled in 1975?

Were you driving an electric car in 1975?

At any point since 1975, had you programmed a computer system to interact with humans as if it was human, and real humans were unsure if your system was human or not? Were you giving this any thought in 1975?

Kat

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40. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

Like me talking about cell phone in 1975,

jimcbrown said...

Luckily folks like Martin Cooper of Motorola were way ahead of you back on 1973/04/03.

katsmeow said...

Mobile radio transmission was frequently handed off between fixed land stations routinely with aircraft and ships,

Sounds more like a bigger beefier version of walkie talkies. This differs fromm what Martin Cooper did in 1973 (being able to successfully dial a number on a prototype mobile phone and have a conversation with someone on a landline).

katsmeow said...

but it was manual because the zoned land stations had no transparent cross links. No need to discuss that with you, of course.

Well, strictly not needed, but would be an interesting discussion to have, of course.

katsmeow said...

At any point since 1975, had you programmed a computer system to interact with humans as if it was human, and real humans were unsure if your system was human or not?

Kat

So .. 1975 or anytime after. Including right now, this very second, and even beyond (i.e. into the distant future).

So, yes then.

katsmeow said...

Were you .. in 1975?

Only if I could go and pull a Mary Sutton.

Still, interesting questions. I'll extend these to ask if *anyone* from that year fit the bill.

Mary Sutton said...

Did anyone have a cell phone in 1975?

Yes, at least in the prototype stages. See Martin Cooper above.

Mary Sutton said...

Was anyone driving an electric car in 1975?

Sadly not Andreas Flocken, who died in 1913, or more than two decades after inventing them. But the Enfield 8000, which came out in 1973, suggests that there were at least a couple of folks doing this in 1975.

Mary Sutton said...

Was anyone's sterio remote controlled in 1975?

Is stereo meant here?

If yes, then perhaps not. The first stereo proper with a remote control was B&O Beomaster 2400, but that came out in 1977, two years too late.

That said, if we can define this more broadly, say to include TVs and old fashioned radios, then the answer is almost certainly yes. The Philco Mystery Control was available back in 1939, and Robert Adler's Zenith Space Command was developed for televisions less than twenty years later, in 1956.

Mary Sutton said...

... programmed a computer system to interact with humans as if it was human ...

Was anyone giving this any thought in 1975?

Yes, definitely. Joseph Weizenbaum, who invented ELIZA back in the 1960s, would later publish a book called "Computer Power and Human Reason" in 1976.

Kenneth Colby also wrote a similar program, PARRY, in 1972 and this was almost certainly still an area of activity for him a meager three years later.

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41. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Like me talking about cell phone in 1975,

jimcbrown said...

Luckily folks like Martin Cooper of Motorola were way ahead of you back on 1973/04/03.

I wasn't in any position to compete with anyone, but i knew such a thing was possible, i had read nothing on feasability.

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Mobile radio transmission was frequently handed off between fixed land stations routinely with aircraft and ships,

Sounds more like a bigger beefier version of walkie talkies. This differs fromm what Martin Cooper did in 1973 (being able to successfully dial a number on a prototype mobile phone and have a conversation with someone on a landline).

I cannot imagine TWA (for example) buying aircraft and talking to airport towers on "beefy walkie talkies".

I'll bet Martin Cooper was not the first, considering "ham" radio. But i wasn't concerned with "one of the trancievers in the communication being mobile*, i was timing distances passing by a land radio on the interstate, spacing of towers needed, the ERP needed, etc.. I was also being laughed at.

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Were you .. in 1975?

Only if I could go and pull a Mary Sutton.

Still, interesting questions. I'll extend these to ask if *anyone* from that year fit the bill.

Well, i did ask you. Re Mary Sutton, i'm waiting on the movie.

How about more recent, did you develop and use and demo to others, a prepared capsaicin spray that did not act like Mace, and did eliminate pain on human skin that barely tolerated touch, tell a pharmacist, who quickly retired and went to work for a new biotech firm, which then , you prolly know the end of that story? Much like strtok.e and irc.e, i got squat.

Kat

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42. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

I wasn't in any position to compete with anyone,

Fair point.

katsmeow said...

but i knew such a thing was possible, i had read nothing on feasability.

Good point. The Iridum Satellite Phone showed that practical feasibility of such things were still difficult even late into the '90s, sadly.

jimcbrown said...

Mobile radio transmission was frequently handed off between fixed land stations routinely with aircraft and ships,

Sounds more like a bigger beefier version of walkie talkies. This differs fromm what Martin Cooper did in 1973 (being able to successfully dial a number on a prototype mobile phone and have a conversation with someone on a landline).

katsmeow said...

I cannot imagine TWA (for example) buying aircraft and talking to airport towers on "beefy walkie talkies".

But i wasn't concerned with "one of the trancievers in the communication being mobile*,

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. The point I was trying to convey was the ability to dial a number from a mobile or radio device and reach someone out of range of the signal.

katsmeow said...

I'll bet Martin Cooper was not the first, considering "ham" radio.

Again, ham radio isn't relayed the way phone calls are.

katsmeow said...

i was timing distances passing by a land radio on the interstate, spacing of towers needed,

I'm glad you brought up ham radio. This sort of stuff wasn't new in general since it needed to be considered for ham radio and other mobile radio transmissions - though I suppose a cell phone moving on an interstate would have brought forth some novel differences of degree.

katsmeow said...

the ERP needed, etc..

What's ERP?

katsmeow said...

Were you .. in 1975?

jimcbrown said...

Only if I could go and pull a Mary Sutton.

katsmeow said...

Well, i did ask you.

Alas, I have nothing to add to the above on that point.

katsmeow said...

Re Mary Sutton, i'm waiting on the movie.

Well, a made-for-TV one did come out nearly a quarter of a century ago.

katsmeow said...

How about more recent, did ... develop and use and demo to others, a prepared capsaicin spray that did not act like Mace, and did eliminate pain on human skin that barely tolerated touch,

Well, a topical cream rather than a spray. And I suppose I shouldn't take any credit, as it's more of a generational family recipe. Of course, these sort of things have been known since at least the 1950s, and perhaps even earlier, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163725820302746#::text=Following%20more%20than%20100%[K]ciceptive%20sensory%20nerves%20by%20the

katsmeow said...

tell a pharmacist, who quickly retired and went to work for a new biotech firm, which then , you prolly know the end of that story?

Probably, https://seekingalpha.com/article/23696-the-biotech-industry-30-years-of-failure-

I mean, it's telling that one can attempt to search for a biotech firm that got rich by selling pain-relief capsaicin sprays and not find anything.

katsmeow said...

Much like strtok.e and irc.e, i got squat.

Well, at least I understand why strtoke.e and irc.e got squat. I mean who offers money and things to computer files? They only exist in the physical realm in the most meager and abstract way, let alone have the capacity to feel and desire things.

katsmeow said...

i got squat.

At best, it is starting to sound like you might have had some good ideas that you developed independently of other inventors and researchers - in a time when information flowed more slowly - and could have reasonably believed that you thought of it originally, only to face bitter disappointment when it turned out that someone else got there first. Multiple times.

At least, if nothing else, you can now rub it in your 1975 detractors' faces that "i was right, you were wrong, i told you so" and such.

katsmeow said...

I was also being laughed at.

Kat

Reminds me of https://www.wright-brothers.org/History_Wing/Aviations_Attic/They_Wouldnt_Believe/

But, to paraphrase a famous quote to be gender neutral, those who have the last laugh, laugh best.

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43. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

Again, ham radio isn't relayed the way phone calls are.

Ham radio was being connected to phone lines before mobile phones were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopatch

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

the ERP needed, etc..

What's ERP?

Effective Radiated Power. Why it mattered: my car didn't look like it had anything but an AM radio in it, due to apparent lack of transmitter antenna.

PS: in case: you didn't understand the need for lack of transmitter antenna ; at one point in history, those who sold drugs recognized law enforcement vehicles by the 2-way communications equipment (make, model, etc didn't matter). Also, CB equipment might have a good resale value on the black market. Suspect antennas were damaged in various ways.

jimcbrown said...

I mean, it's telling that one can attempt to search for a biotech firm that got rich by selling pain-relief capsaicin sprays and not find anything.

So they made a bucket of money and quit. The stuff is still being made. And i thought the less physical water base was a plus for non-contact application.

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Much like strtok.e and irc.e, i got squat.

Well, at least I understand why strtoke.e and irc.e got squat. I mean who offers money and things to computer files? They only exist in the physical realm in the most meager and abstract way, let alone have the capacity to feel and desire things.

I didn't specify money as the sole component of "squat". For strtok.e, i did get attacked for straying from the Eu religion of atoms, and the mention of strings. For irc.e i got worse. Remember when DLL didn't imply dynamic de-linking of a library, and truely dynamically linking to a library any time besides startup? Remember string execution?

Kat

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44. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

Again, ham radio isn't relayed the way phone calls are.

katsmeow said...

Ham radio was being connected to phone lines before mobile phones were. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopatch

I stand corrected. Though it does seem less practical - e.g. can't be on hold on the phone through an autopatch since music can't be transmitted over ham. (I'd also be skeptical if autopatches would still work today, due to phone control signals now moving out of band, but that doesn't rule it out being a practical alternative in the '70s.)

katsmeow said...

Effective Radiated Power. Why it mattered: my car didn't look like it had anything but an AM radio in it, due to apparent lack of transmitter antenna.

PS: in case: you didn't understand the need for lack of transmitter antenna ; at one point in history, those who sold drugs recognized law enforcement vehicles by the 2-way communications equipment (make, model, etc didn't matter). Also, CB equipment might have a good resale value on the black market. Suspect antennas were damaged in various ways.

Ah, good to know.

jimcbrown said...

I mean, it's telling that one can attempt to search for a biotech firm that got rich by selling pain-relief capsaicin sprays and not find anything.

katsmeow said...

So they made a bucket of money and quit.

You removed the relevant part of my reponse here, so I'll reinclude it.

IOW, they probably lost everything including their pants and then quit.

katsmeow said...

The stuff is still being made.

Of course. A patent filed in 1975 would have expired at the new millenium. Even if it was filed a decade and a half late, the patent would still have been expired by over a decade at this point.

(I'm a bit puzzled here actually as I can't find any such patent. Perhaps they attempted to file one and it was rejected based on prior art. Which would be another reason why they lost their pants.)

katsmeow said...

And i thought the less physical water base was a plus for non-contact application.

A bit confused by this as a) most sprays of this kind are heavily water based from what I understood and b) doesn't the spray need to come into contact with a person's skin to take effect there?

jimcbrown said...

I mean who offers money and things

katsmeow said...

I didn't specify money as the sole component of "squat".

Me either, that's what the "and things" part meant.

katsmeow said...

Remember when DLL didn't imply dynamic de-linking of a library, and truely dynamically linking to a library any time besides startup?

I guess this must have been a windoze change or something. Glad I'm on nix.

katsmeow said...

Remember string execution?

Kat

Yep, sure do: https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/127219.wc and https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/127661.wc

katsmeow said...

For strtok.e, i did get attacked for straying from the Eu religion of atoms, and the mention of strings. For irc.e i got worse.

My memory has dimmed, but I recall that Rob Craig said the predecessor of Eu (which he did for his disseration) had strings as atoms. I recall getting into a somewhat heated discussion with Derek Parnell waaay back as well on the idea of treating strings as atoms instead of sequences. (This later evolved into the seq-op operations that I came up with.)

So at the very least, I can relate.

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45. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

And i thought the less physical water base was a plus for non-contact application.

A bit confused by this as a) most sprays of this kind are heavily water based from what I understood and b) doesn't the spray need to come into contact with a person's skin to take effect there?

They didn't sell a spray, they made, and it's still made, a creme or lotion that requires dolloping and spreading, and for some unknown reason, "rubbing into the skin". I made a spray.

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Remember when DLL didn't imply dynamic de-linking of a library, and truely dynamically linking to a library any time besides startup?

I guess this must have been a windoze change or something. Glad I'm on nix.

Nope, in an effort to execute strings, i tried compiling new code with variables into a dll, and a running program load it and execute it. When done with it, unload it. I discovered a memory leak in OE that way. AFAIK, it was never fully fixed.

Kat

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46. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

They didn't sell a spray, they made, and it's still made, a creme or lotion that requires dolloping and spreading, and for some unknown reason, "rubbing into the skin". I made a spray.

Ah, that explains why I couldn't find a patent! As I stated earlier, creams of this sort were being sold commerically since at least 1950 ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163725820302746#::text=Following%20more%20than%20100%[K]ciceptive%20sensory%20nerves%20by%20the ) so there's no way they had a valid patent on it in 1975 or later.

katsmeow said...

Remember when DLL didn't imply dynamic de-linking of a library, and truely dynamically linking to a library any time besides startup?

jimcbrown said...

I guess this must have been a windoze change or something. Glad I'm on nix.

katsmeow said...

Nope, in an effort to execute strings, i tried compiling new code with variables into a dll, and a running program load it and execute it. When done with it, unload it. I discovered a memory leak in OE that way. AFAIK, it was never fully fixed.

Kat

Ah, yes, found it!

https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/136418.wc

To quote myself from a few years ago,

jimcbrown said...

Afraid not. It only happened on windoze,

While it's true that it was never fully fixed in OE, I did offer a ray of hope here:

jimcbrown said...

I suspect that the issue would not be present on Phix

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47. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

I suspect that the issue would not be present on Phix

Nah mate, leave me out of it! The eval() function has been eagerly used a round number of times
in the 30 months since it was released, either that or the design was absolutely perfect, the
documentation flawless and crystal clear, and there were no bugs of any kind in it whatsoever.

Also, my attitude to dlls is that if you are going to build one from Phix code then 99.999% of
the whole point is so it can be called from some other programming language, hence there are
no plans to ever let it return "a phix sequence" - not that there is any problem serialising
such to a string and reconstructing from that on receipt, unless playing with "big data".
[You could peek/poke raw values into ipc memory, but that cannot hold phix sequences either.]

There is a potential issue in that any routines defined in a dll must be somehow marked as
invalid by the close_dll(), perhaps slightly more of an issue should any of them have been
turned into a call_back() - abandoning integer rids might perhaps help with that.

Fourthly and of course any other program trying to use a dll you are rebuilding won't work.

I struggle to comprehend how it is easier to construct working source code rather than just
write more flexible static code... and the wee little matter of testing it adequately...

In light of those five, rebuilding a dll/so mid-run is (imo) an utter insanity, and that is before
you consider the inevitable execution stalls that will occur when your AV kicks in.

Of course Phix is open source and I am not telling anyone they cannot add that sort of thing
to Phix themselves, just that I will not be participating, though o/c I would take a second
look at an actually working demo that incontrovertibly proves it has merit.

The worst thing anyone should be accusing me of here is refusing to do their work for them.

PS:

jimcbrown said...

It only happened on windoze,

That surprises me, I would have thought that M_DEFINE_C in be_machine.c always returning c_routine_next++;
would be an issue... unless it was always returning -1?

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48. Re: Hypatia 3.0

petelomax said...
jimcbrown said...

I suspect that the issue would not be present on Phix

Nah mate, leave me out of it! The eval() function has been eagerly used a round number of times
in the 30 months since it was released, either that or the design was absolutely perfect, the
documentation flawless and crystal clear, and there were no bugs of any kind in it whatsoever.

I am sorry, but i ran into the real world, which was bound to happen, seeing as how i got into programming because something in the real world needed computer control (And the vic20 and c64 did that wonderfully. And i doubled the amount of machine code in mine. And for the early 1980's the speed was darned good!). Mechanics can take one only so far. But as i see no way i can use OE or Phix to contact the real world and see what's going on ("see", yeas, in 1984 i had a video camera connected to a C64), or to administer instructions to the real world, all the programming features one could ask for and use are going to be less than watching a carpentry how-to video on youtube. I not only have a pile of idle winxp boxes from the Tiggr-cluster, but a small pile of i5 win7 boxes which i got more recently when i had a hope some kind of OE interface to the physical world could be had by usb or sata. I have simply stopped all programming since.

Kat

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49. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

I am sorry, but i ran into the real world, which was bound to happen,

Yep, happens.

katsmeow said...

some kind of OE interface to the physical world could be had by usb

Yeah. Ironically, it'd be easier now. If libusb.info had existed back in the day, jeremy_c would have knocked out a simple wrapper around that libusb lightning fast, and then we'd have one on both nix and winders.

katsmeow said...

But as i see no way i can use OE or Phix to contact the real world and see what's going on

or to administer instructions to the real world,

Key words being "i can use". I accept your desire to avoid nix, C, etc.. but for other folks who may read this thread, I'd like to point out for posterity that such things are possible with Eu for those who don't have the same restrictions.

katsmeow said...

And the vic20 and c64 did that wonderfully.

It's almost a shame that you didn't get into the FOSS nix world - which much better captures the open spirit of the 70s/80s computing scene - and instead stuck it out in winders, where there has been a very strong trend to locking this stuff down (you know, for all the people who'd eat tide pods and stuff).

On the plus side, the Mega64 ( mega64.org ) and the Ultimate-64-MK2 ( ultimate64.com/Ultimate64 ) are both available for pre-order - and they'll include USB support!

Sometimes, when everyone keeps telling you how its supposed to go, you should just go and do your own thing.

katsmeow said...

I have simply stopped all programming since.

Mechanics can take one only so far.

Kat

On a positive note, at least it sounds like you haven't stopped all mechanics (which is what you were doing in the beginning, before coding) so perhaps you still have your first love.

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50. Re: Hypatia 3.0

Since you show the need to keep this open, Jim,

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

I have simply stopped all programming since.

Mechanics can take one only so far.

Kat

On a positive note, at least it sounds like you haven't stopped all mechanics (which is what you were doing in the beginning, before coding) so perhaps you still have your first love.

Well, i mean mechanical control of machinery, such as if it senses it's hotter than outside and above a threshold and before a time, turn on a fan. That's a whopper of a problem to solve without electronics.

For instance, For various reasons, i paid a mechanic to replace the 20 year old timing belt etc on the car engine last year. I expected it to last 10 years. Last week, the timing belt broke. This tends to bend valve stems, and score guides and seats, and even punch holes in pistons. So now i need to make a space i can tear down this engine at least to measure the internal damage. I have an near-identical engine for parts, but it's only a year younger than the damaged one, altho it has not moved in the last 12 years. So unless it's in near perfect condition it's barely good economics to use parts from it. Either way, there's no computer control of the valves, and the rest of the car is still 36 years old.

One year, the truck got infested with a possum and mice. Someone i was relying on for protection from neighbor's dogs decided to threaten me with dogs if i poisoned the rodents. By the time i got rid of the someone, and the rodents, the animals had eaten into spark plug wires and fuel lines, and when i went to start the truck, it erupted into a ball of fire. Yesterday i bypassed all the chewed and melted gasoline/vacuum lines and got it running (idling) on propane. So, new steel gasoline lines and fuel pump ordered. The automatic transmission i paid to have rebuilt a year before the fire, didn't go into gear yesterday. I don't rebuild automatics, it's not cost-effective for me to buy the tools. I sought for a manual transmission for many years. And if it runs normally on gasoline again, it needs new tires, at $200 each.

I cannot afford to buy another vehicle. I have no way to get to grocery, dentist, etc.. I put down money on a place in another state to move to, but that's not possible now, and i do not get the money back.

Re the dogs, a subject Euphoric rode me for years about on this forum, well, last year six of them killed and ate all his goats, and then in November one dog topped it off by killing his 3 month old human grandson.

And i'm 67 years old. I'd rather be programming computers to do interesting things, and have a nice garden, and resume a few other hobbies (which would definitely save me money and might make me money). Instead i do only what i must (for lack of time and money), and beg for (and offer to pay for) bits of software (such as a usb lib) which i never get. <rhetorical>There's like 50 ways to compile OE now, right?</rhetorical>

Kat

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51. Re: Hypatia 3.0

Sorry, but you are the one who bought a consumer-grade computer desgned to deliver "content" - YouTube and Amazon shopping - instead of a commercial-grade one designed to operate sensors and machinery.

You are the one who insists on using an operating system that was never stable enough nor designed to do what you want it to do.

You made a choice to reject any information or advice from people who are actually building and using things that do what you claim you want to do.

No one to blame but you, is there?

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52. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

the plus side, the Mega64 ( mega64.org ) and the Ultimate-64-MK2 ( ultimate64.com/Ultimate64 ) are both available for pre-order - and they'll include USB support!

Everything is out of stock, and no news since August 2022, 18 months ago.

And if i got everything they sell, i'd have a system totally incompatible with OE and the modern wintel hardware i have.

Mega64.com has no relation to the Commodore 64, it's about 3 "party guys".

Kat

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53. Re: Hypatia 3.0

irv said...

Sorry, but you are the one who bought a consumer-grade computer desgned to deliver "content" - YouTube and Amazon shopping - instead of a commercial-grade one designed to operate sensors and machinery.

Sorry, but what commercial grade computer do you mean that does not have the same usb and sata and lan ports this one has? Plus, due to hardware, i was able to use a consumer grade C64 to monitor an industrial Modicon , and provide hourly and shift prinouts, and a sliding time window thru the latest database of over 100 sensor inputs to it. The Modicon vendor was unable to provide that data, the machine oem that made the machine was clueless, and IBM said the Modicon inputs could not be monitored and declined the job.

irv said...

You are the one who insists on using an operating system that was never stable enough nor designed to do what you want it to do.

Then why is it every nix user i know is down more than i am? Why is it more people use windows at home than any other OS?

irv said...

You made a choice to reject any information or advice from people who are actually building and using things that do what you claim you want to do.

No one to blame but you, is there?

You are right, i should never have started with Euphoria, because it is all those things you just put down Windows for. It's unstable, buggy, and isn't designed to do anything but virtual online stuff.

Kat

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54. Re: Hypatia 3.0

katsmeow said...

has no relation to the Commodore 64, it's about 3 "party guys".

Kat

That's why I didn't mention it. I find myself wondering why you did...

katsmeow said...

Everything is out of stock, and no news since August 2022, 18 months ago.

Ouch! Guess we missed the window on this. Here's hoping that they'll have something soon.. Ultimate64 promises to be available sometime in 2024.

Or Plan B, grab it from ebay, https://www.ebay.com/itm/166201644466?itmmeta=01HPJRXKYH0ARWVB2CDN7KNHK3&hash=item26b263d5b2:g:PTwAAOSwkF9knd9I&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwJxqqzPAqqamhht69p%2FAZQUkCaRBd8B2T1zo5oEPQcybggjj0FCDlT7mM0ySvFYx5yX3uGCqWakRarf7jS1mlqBZK%2BujmFn%2BPSguVz6TLsTlD3%2FbR9nqp3HIPw5J0ZvQ5giuzCbq6x8IXxf%2BrYWGldBV%2FpeBfE1ggUgd0m%2FPY%2FwovQOxB%2BRiSRCepu1geOuXbK6UFxwpSYnCRJcSKkQkTbOezK3kIxL6lScpNt3Q0nExAcSHwulT%2F3q4%2FhoncV96Zw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9a_9ti0Yw

katsmeow said...

And if i got everything they sell, i'd have a system totally incompatible with OE and the modern wintel hardware i have.

Even so, the right tool for the right job, eh? OE on nix with C glue doesn't work for you due to an adversion to nix and to C, while OE on windoze doesn't work due to the limitations that get placed on those systems.

Also, I wouldn't think they're totally incompatible. Ultimate64 supports USB and ethernet, so I'd think there must be some way to network it to windoze boxen if you'd prefer that sort of thing.

irv said...

Sorry, but you are the one who bought a consumer-grade computer desgned to deliver "content" - YouTube and Amazon shopping - instead of a commercial-grade one designed to operate sensors and machinery.

katsmeow said...

Sorry, but what commercial grade computer do you mean that does not have the same usb and sata and lan ports this one has?r

For example, there are lots of cheap chromebooks and the like that mostly fit this bill. It's not just windoze that's the problem.

But I think this might comment might also have been made in light of my suggestion for C64 compatible systems and hardware. If that worked for you in the past, and is still available, it's reasonable to ask why it wouldn't work for you now. (I will note though that you have since answered this - it's because it's out of stock and you have some worries about integrating it with windoze.)

irv said...

You are the one who insists on using an operating system that was never stable enough nor designed to do what you want it to do.

katsmeow said...

Then why is it every nix user i know is down more than i am?

You don't know me? I have uptimes of over a decade now.

katsmeow said...

Why is it more people use windows at home than any other OS?

I .. doubt this is still true. iOS and Android are both nix derivatives, and I think more folks use them than a traditional desktop or laptop.

If we restrict to the traditional systems and to devs, then I think this is still not true - what I've seen is that MacBooks rule in the ICT sector. And OS X is another nix derivative.

irv said...

You made a choice to reject any information or advice from people who are actually building and using things that do what you claim you want to do.

No one to blame but you, is there?

katsmeow said...

You are right, i should never have started with Euphoria, because it is all those things you just put down Windows for. It's unstable, buggy, and isn't designed to do anything but virtual online stuff.

Kat

Well, the nix version is a bit better in some regards here. But again, the right tool for the right job - if a C64 (or a modern version like Ultimate64) can get the job done more easily...

Eu started as an MS-DOS only language, and considering that it had things like assembly support and other low level stuff in it (that made stuff like direct hardware access possible) (well with the right libraries at least) this was a decision that almost certainly made sense at the time. But now Eu has long left its DOS roots and the windoze and nix beasts are beasts of a very different nature.

katsmeow said...

Since you show the need to keep this open, Jim,

Me?? I mean, you're the one that keeps responding with unrelated ancedotes about dogs and stuff.

katsmeow said...

Re the dogs, a subject Euphoric rode me for years about on this forum, well, last year six of them killed and ate all his goats, and then in November one dog topped it off by killing his 3 month old human grandson.

Yeah, somehow I don't think any of this happened to C. K. Lester. I must be parsing wrong.

On a more serious note, I think there's a lot to be learned here, so it's useful for this to go on a bit more.

katsmeow said...

Well, i mean mechanical control of machinery, such as if it senses it's hotter than outside and above a threshold and before a time, turn on a fan. That's a whopper of a problem to solve without electronics.

Oh, so you have no interest in mechanical engineering at all outside of this aspect? Just the controls part interests you? Hmm, that is indeed a different kettle of fish then...

katsmeow said...

For instance, For various reasons, .. car .. truck ..

Well, this seems more like you are just trying to keep your car and truck running MacGuyver style, with chewing gum and duct tape, metaphorically speaking.

katsmeow said...

I cannot afford to buy another vehicle. I have no way to get to grocery, dentist, etc.. I put down money on a place in another state to move to, but that's not possible now, and i do not get the money back.

And i'm 67 years old.

I'm reminded of what you said earlier in this thread about real life.

katsmeow said...

I'd rather be programming computers to do interesting things,

If you can get ahold of a few Ultimate64s then perhaps that bit is still possible.

katsmeow said...

Instead i do only what i must (for lack of time and money), and beg for (and offer to pay for) bits of software (such as a usb lib) which i never get.

Offering to pay for? Honestly I'd suggest against that, considering what else you wrote concerning your finances. Better to save up for a new van that can get you out of state. (I've been looking into vanlife myself for a while now, incidentally.)

katsmeow said...

<rhetorical>There's like 50 ways to compile OE now, right?</rhetorical>

Kat

^ This

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55. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...
katsmeow said...

Instead i do only what i must (for lack of time and money), and beg for (and offer to pay for) bits of software (such as a usb lib) which i never get.

Offering to pay for? Honestly I'd suggest against that, considering what else you wrote concerning your finances. Better to save up for a new van that can get you out of state. (I've been looking into vanlife myself for a while now, incidentally.)

Didn't Irv say it was my decision? I cannot accumulate money as fast as prices are rising, etc.. The problem with van life is there is no place you can legally exist without approval and permitting rules by someone else. However, in a van, you can get away from neighbors and their drunken cussing, trash fire smoke, dogs, and guns (as long as the van keeps running). That said, if you need to replace the alternator belt or brake pads on your van, there is virtually no place you can legally do that. And the neighbor's dogs can legally stop you even if you own the land you want to do that work on.

Kat

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56. Re: Hypatia 3.0

jimcbrown said...

Offering to pay for? Honestly I'd suggest against that,

katsmeow said...

Didn't Irv say it was my decision?

Yes, and indeed it is. Never meant to imply otherwise.

katsmeow said...

I cannot accumulate money as fast as prices are rising, etc..

A problem that most are dealing with right now. Hence the suggestion to try and spend less (maybe you still can't accumulate fast enough to meet rising prices, but I'd gather that even in that case more accumulation is probably still more advantageous).

katsmeow said...

However, in a van, you can get away from neighbors and their drunken cussing, trash fire smoke, dogs, and guns (as long as the van keeps running).

Exactly why I suggested it.

katsmeow said...

That said, if you need to replace the alternator belt or brake pads on your van, there is virtually no place you can legally do that.

My understanding is that other vanlifers try to find free campsites for situations like these (e.g. Black Rock Road campsite in Littlefield, Arizona).

Sometimes you can get luckly and get permission to park a broken down van in the parking lot of an auto shop as well. E.g. https://www.thevanimals.com/advanture/how-to-repair-your-camper-van-or-rv-while-traveling

katsmeow said...

The problem with van life is there is no place you can legally exist without approval and permitting rules by someone else.

Yep, even with campsites you need to follow the rules and there are owners or stewards with the power to kick you out. And you can't just drive all day and all night on the highways.

Unless it's on land you also own. But in that case...

katsmeow said...

And the neighbor's dogs can legally stop you even if you own the land you want to do that work on.

Kat

Yep. Most vanlifers don't own land, I suspect for this very reason. So if the neighbors cause problems, they can just up and leave without notice.

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