1. inpout32
- Posted by andreasWagner 2 weeks ago
- 535 views
Forked from Re: Mind blowingly impressive.
I am not seeing the Ultimate64 as being a step forward to getting the lawn mower to take a step forward.
Kat
That comes as a bit of a surprise (the lawn mower I mean, since this is the first time you mentioned it).
I'm curious if it's specifically the lawn mower step that you saw it not working (which might be a good example of sneaking in a "move the goal posts" sort of thing), or did you see an issue with the earlier steps discussed too (like turning a fan on the roof, or stuff related to your car engine)? In the car engine case I'm curious as to why that wouldn't have been mentioned earlier in the other thread when it was first brought up.
And i am curious about you assuming i'd be divulging every detail of my life and aspirations. Saying anything only muddies the waters, and this has happened many times! Watch another example....
There's some generic pata-to-ram modules floating around.
If you have any good links, I would love to learn more about this. A few searches couldn't find anything useful...
... and presto, you have gone off on web searches to prove i have no knowledge of this, and it will be a primary methodology of how i desire to interface to the computer. Until, someone remembers i said "relay", and in the methods of today, that means "plugging a relay directly into the desktop computer's motherboard". Holy carp!
Ok, take it so far off in left field
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1312&_nkw=pata++ram+module&_sacat=0
that you totally escape the point of the freaking OS sending and recieving communications from a device plugged into it. Me mentioning the usb/sata-pata-ram-dual-port-ram = pseudo-parport interface as the sole method of communications? Well, whatever it takes!, but i didn't need to do that to comm with this keybd or vga lcd screen!
(At this point I think it's fair to say that Euphoria/Phix almost certainly simply ain't gonna play any part in the solution you seek.)
Are you both saying that desktop computers and windows has "advanced" so far that it's no impossible for communications on sata, usb, old fashioned serial or parports? Then how the heck are my mouse, my keybd, my cameras, my thumb drives, and the dsl modem communicating with the computers?!?
Agreed. It's a shame that Euphoria/Phix must be tied to windoze for this particular user to be useful, since Linux in particular makes it really easy to directly access physical memory like so:
mem = open("/dev/mem", "rw") [snip]
And at this point i am cussing out loud. Very loud.
In the olden daze i'd bit bang the parport. From Apple, zx80, vic20, C64, 8086, 80286, all could do this. NOW, we are too cussed "advanced".
Kat
https://github.com/ellysh/InpOut32
https://www.highrez.co.uk/Downloads/InpOut32/
Maybe that will help. or is at least a starting point.
I have not tested it. I don't even have a computer with a 'real' serial or parallel port to test it on. And no interest in it either. From what I've seen it shouldn't be too difficult to write a wrapper for euphoria or phix.
Andreas
2. Re: inpout32
- Posted by katsmeow 2 weeks ago
- 532 views
Thank you Andreas.
It smells like linux. Instead of "include filename", i must know C++, .NET, .VB and Visual Studio compilers and DLLs, and how to "wrap" in OE. There's not enough hours in the day. The one webpage even mentions it won't run unless it is installed under a 2GB memory location, which i have no hope of setting up.
One other point i feel the need to mention, it cannot be encrypted, just to make life easier for me. If this means i must use a hacked keybd and mechanical relays and slow a 8-core 4Ghz machine down to below 100 bytes per minute, so be it.
Kat
3. Re: inpout32
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) 2 weeks ago
- 530 views
And i am curious about you assuming i'd be divulging every detail of my life and aspirations.
And I am curious about you assuming that I'd ask you to be divulging every detail of your life and aspirations.
I simply stated that request because that knowledge helps me determine what might and might not be relevant or helpful to you. Naturally I respect your desire for privacy and do not require a response to every question asked or statement made - but also keep in mind that the less we (the community here) knows, the less effectively we are able to assist you.
With that in mind, I'll reiterate my request for clarification, so I can see how the Ultimate64 or a similar device can be made to work - or failing that what other alternative options may exist. Again though - will respect a non-response in the interests of your time and privacy - but hey, don't say that I didn't try to help!
I'm curious if it's specifically the lawn mower step that you saw it not working (which might be a good example of sneaking in a "move the goal posts" sort of thing), or did you see an issue with the earlier steps discussed too (like turning a fan on the roof, or stuff related to your car engine)? In the car engine case I'm curious as to why that wouldn't have been mentioned earlier in the other thread when it was first brought up.
There's some generic pata-to-ram modules floating around.
If you have any good links, I would love to learn more about this. A few searches couldn't find anything useful...
... and presto, you have gone off on web searches to prove i have no knowledge of this,
Not at all, I'm not sure how one jumps from "couldn't find anything useful" to "prove .. have no knowledge". If anything, the opposite was true - I was asking for help from you to fill the information gap (so that I could in turn assist you better).
Saying anything only muddies the waters, and this has happened many times!
I mean sure, but I wonder if that's describing you mostly. Like in the above - really how did you make that jump in meaning?
Watch another example....
and it will be a primary methodology of how i desire to interface to the computer.
Hmm, Good point - I didn't mean to imply that this would be the primary method, but I can see how a reasonable person might get that impression. Mostly I was just astonished at the irony (since Linux really does make it so so so easy to use that method).
Ok, take it so far off in left field
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1312&_nkw=pata++ram+module&_sacat=0
Me mentioning the usb/sata-pata-ram-dual-port-ram = pseudo-parport interface as the sole method of communications? Well, whatever it takes!,
Ah gotcha. So basically the ebay searches are of devices that are essentially USB flash sticks - except they connect via PATA rather than USB (so minus the USB part). I think I have an idea of what you meant now - to connect the PATA to the computer on one hand, but then to somehow modify the device so that it's able to connect and talk to what you're really interested in downstream and pass that along.
(At this point I think it's fair to say that Euphoria/Phix almost certainly simply ain't gonna play any part in the solution you seek.)
Are you both saying that desktop computers [...] has "advanced" so far that it's _now_ impossible for communications on sata, usb, old fashioned serial or parports?
In a word, no. See below:
Agreed. It's a shame that Euphoria/Phix must be tied to windoze for this particular user to be useful, since Linux in particular makes it really easy to directly access physical memory like so:
mem = open("/dev/mem", "rw")
[snip]
And at this point i am cussing out loud. Very loud.
...why? It's pure Eu, no C, the only nixism is in one file name. And even that can be changed - would prefer a DOS-style open("MEM:") along the lines of the old open("COM1") and such?
Are you both saying that desktop computers and windows has "advanced" so far that it's no impossible for communications on sata, usb, old fashioned serial or parports?
Until, someone remembers i said "relay", and in the methods of today, that means "plugging a relay directly into the desktop computer's motherboard". Holy carp!
that you totally escape the point of the freaking OS sending and recieving communications from a device plugged into it.
but i didn't need to do that to comm with this keybd or vga lcd screen!
In the olden daze i'd bit bang the parport. From Apple, zx80, vic20, C64, 8086, 80286, all could do this. NOW, we are too cussed "advanced".
Kat
I think "advanced" is the wrong term here. More like, Windoze locked things down to only the chosen few (C coding device driver developers) to protect the tide pod eaters.
The male-dominated thread is telling me windose is unable to gets(), getkey(), puts(), or call bat file to do similar i/o or whatever physical device that is not bolted to the mobo.
I think the only accurate part of this is the term "male-dominated" ;)
thread is telling me windose is unable to gets(), getkey(), puts(), or call bat file to do similar i/o or whatever physical device that is not bolted to the mobo.
Well obviously windoze is able to do it. I'm sure you've used a USB mouse and keyboard with windose, ergo windoze is able to do it.
And that i am not typing on a keybd with a serial link to the OS
See what I wrote above regarding USB keyboards and windoze;
and OE is a figment of my imagination.
Quote please?
Furthermore, since the keybd doesn't really exist in real life, i cannot use anything similar, of perhaps a different shape and speed, with relays or CdS cells or mosfets or crosspoint chips, to put the ascii bit pattern of "A" onto a serial usb cable into the computer for OE to gets() and then puts() to the screen, which in my imagination is on a different serial wire, so i can see and supposedly verify the magic happened, and in my wildest nitemares OE can make if-then-else or while() decisions on whether to show me the "A" or something else.
Obviously you can - in fact you already suggested a method below. Just you were displeased with doing things via that method since it was slower than you would like.
Maybe i should put relay contacts across every numeric key on this magic keybd [...] and glue CdS cells to places on the monitor [...] and i can read the light and dark under each cell as a bit!
I guess .. whatever works?
I think it will be stupidly slow, especially compared to writing to a file on a sata-3 hdd,
I can't disagree, but again ... whatever works I guess?
And why must i explicitly tell you what each use is that i put the bit pattern to?
I can't think of a reason.
And how can you complain about OE/Phix's falling market share with a requirement like that?
I guess, no requirement, therefore no complaint?
Are you going to explain to me the speed difference between a mechanical relay and an ecl chip?
No.
Did i ask you to do that?
No.
Is such in the AUP for windose or OE or Phix or any cussed thing?
Not that I'm aware of.
Why must you be told what device that relay or ram interface or light bulb is seen by?
If anything I'd suggest this would be superfluous to the point of actually reducing our helpfulness (as we'd have to weed through a lot of details to get to a good answer when a brief summary would have done so).
Mostly I just wanted to understand why a USB and ethernet supporting modernized Commodore64 clone couldn't do the job today, when the original Commodore64 was able to do it back in the 1980s.
It worked in the 1940's, surely the computers have not advanced such that this cannot work?
Sadly I feel that you may be overestimating the tide-pod eaters of the 21st century.
but wth, it beats trying to CUSSWORDS you have made getting data about using windows now as impossible to get and use
Tide pod eaters. What can I say?
Thank you Andreas.
It smells like linux.
How? Why? The website and github clearly state it's for Windoze.
as the secrets of the 100 flavors linux.
Kat
Speaking of which - the diversity of linux is beneficial to the ecosystem as a whole. Especially in terms of my employment (that is, keeping me employed). ;)
.VB and Visual Studio
That's hilarious, as if Visual Studio and linux belong in the same paragraph.
Instead of "include filename", i must know C++, .NET, .VB and Visual Studio compilers and DLLs, and how to "wrap" in OE.
The .NET and .VB are just examples, and C++ and Visual Studio compilers are just for development of the dll / driver itself.
Really you just need to know about DLL hell and how to wrap DLLs in OE (or Phix?).
There's not enough hours in the day.
Well, it's windoze. I can't blame you.
The one webpage even mentions it won't run unless it is installed under a 2GB memory location, which i have no hope of setting up.
I double checked that - if you can install and use it, it seems just the open("/dev/mem") feature won't work beyond that limitation. But other ways to talk to parport io and et al seem like they should still work - such as DlPortReadPortUshort.
One other point i feel the need to mention, it cannot be encrypted, just to make life easier for me. If this means i must use a hacked keybd and mechanical relays and slow a 8-core 4Ghz machine down to below 100 bytes per minute, so be it.
Kat
Yeah. Sadly it seems like the driver, while potentially a good solid choice in the past, has been unsupported since 2015.
Then how the heck are my mouse, my keybd, my cameras, my thumb drives, and the dsl modem communicating with the computers?!?
Someone among those C coding device driver developers wrote some C code to make it happen on Windoze... what can I say? It's been long apparent that Windows should have been named Losedows because Windows isn't a WIN but a major LOSE!
4. Re: inpout32
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) 1 week ago
- 383 views
Really! Sure beats "download zip file to c:\Euphoria\ and unzip there, and you're ready to go!".
Well, I'd argue that this is the web server/CGI equivalent.
In orden to run cgi-bin programs on a web server, I have copied /std folder inside /public_html/cgi-bin
But then, we've had 25 years of advancement since the olden daze.
Kat
In fairness, if we look back at what was going on roughly in that timeframe on this forum regarding using web servers, this is what we find:
https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/92573.wc https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/92575.wc https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/93014.wc
Considering how badly things worked back then, this really can be considered an improvement...
5. Re: inpout32
- Posted by katsmeow 6 days ago
- 281 views
But then, we've had 25 years of advancement since the olden daze.
Kat
In fairness, if we look back at what was going on roughly in that timeframe on this forum regarding using web servers, this is what we find:
https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/92573.wc https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/92575.wc https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/93014.wc
Considering how badly things worked back then, this really can be considered an improvement...
And to be fair, i wrote a threaded httpd in mirc.
And an ftp uploader to a php webpage server, making dynamically created webpages here for serving from there.
And i built a cnc-able pcb driller, no way to connect it to OE.
So yea, i think i have pushed a lot of the limits of OE.
If i was coming across OE today, i'd pass it by.
There's just no way i can use OE to turn off the air conditioner.
Kat
6. Re: inpout32
- Posted by jmduro 6 days ago
- 267 views
And to be fair, i wrote a threaded httpd in mirc.
And an ftp uploader to a php webpage server, making dynamically created webpages here for serving from there.
And i built a cnc-able pcb driller, no way to connect it to OE.
So yea, i think i have pushed a lot of the limits of OE.
If i was coming across OE today, i'd pass it by.
There's just no way i can use OE to turn off the air conditioner.
Kat
From Windows, you're right. From Linux it's another affair. I drive my pellet stove with OE either from a Raspberry Pi or from a virtual machine on my Asustor NAS.
I must say to be fair that there is a micro-server (WPalaControl) connected to my pellet stove in between, but I could also drive a relay through a hat on my Raspberry Pi.
Jean-Marc
7. Re: inpout32
- Posted by jmduro 6 days ago
- 263 views
And to be fair, i wrote a threaded httpd in mirc.
And an ftp uploader to a php webpage server, making dynamically created webpages here for serving from there.
And i built a cnc-able pcb driller, no way to connect it to OE.
So yea, i think i have pushed a lot of the limits of OE.
If i was coming across OE today, i'd pass it by.
There's just no way i can use OE to turn off the air conditioner.
Kat
From Windows, you're right. From Linux it's another affair. I drive my pellet stove with OE either from a Raspberry Pi or from a virtual machine on my Asustor NAS.
I must say to be fair that there is a micro-server (WPalaControl) connected to my pellet stove in between, but I could also drive a relay through a hat on my Raspberry Pi.
Jean-Marc
Even from Windows I can drive my pellet stove via the API of the micro-server. I could also drive any domotic device though an API.
Jean-Marc
8. Re: inpout32
- Posted by irv 5 days ago
- 222 views
This whole discussion is ridiculous.
Microsoft makes money by selling something that millions of people think they need.
Very few think they need to connect anything to a computer except a keyboard and a mouse. Therefore, neither Microsoft nor the consumer computer industry have any interest in making specialized interfaces, nor are they interested in having to support those kinds of things when people plug the wrong thing in and burn up their new computer.
Those that DO have a need to connect esoteric stuff to a computer simply choose industrial platforms, hardware and interfaces for their particular need. Costs more, because of the lower demand and need for higher quality equipment and better, safer design.
I don't think Microsoft cares if they lose 1 customer.
Especially one whose main goal in life is to never be satisfied.
9. Re: inpout32
- Posted by petelomax 4 days ago
- 194 views
Amazing that an adult cannot learn what most middle-school girls and boys manage to do with just a few days of tinkering.
I'm thinking it isn't inability, it's unwillingness to give up an opportunity to complain about how unfair the world is.
In fairness, though, afaict no-one has ever posted a demo of anything (remotely) similar on this forum or its predecessor or in the archives, in now 31 years.
Maybe something along the lines of oh dear, another pointless link. I suppose some part of it must be Euphoria/Phix, to justify it being here, but otherwise
it doesn't matter if it is on Windows, Linux, RasperryPI, Arduino, ESP8266, or whatever. That, btw, is the gauntlet being thrown down.
10. Re: inpout32
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) 3 days ago
- 138 views
I suppose some part of it must be Euphoria/Phix, to justify it being here, but otherwise
it doesn't matter if it is on Windows, Linux, RasperryPI, Arduino, ESP8266, or whatever.
In fairness, though, afaict no-one has ever posted a demo of anything (remotely) similar on this forum or its predecessor or in the archives, in now 31 years.
Actually, there are a number of examples on this forum (of using Eu to communicate with an rPi, Arduino, etc), including this one from irv himself.
https://openeuphoria.org/forum/131017.wc#131017
But see also other examples,
https://openeuphoria.org/forum/123941.wc#123941 https://openeuphoria.org/forum/125793.wc#125793
Even one from ryanj, https://openeuphoria.org/forum/m/123448.wc
Maybe something along the lines of oh dear, another pointless link.
So granted, I can't say for sure that any of the above controlled a table lamp (but some of what folks were trying to do was left vague ("let Euphoria programs communicate with hardware based on the Propeller chip") so maybe it's covered?
I think that's part of the problem here though. What katsmeow wants this to be used for seemingly keeps changing (car engine monitoring? turning on a fan on a roof? driving a lawn mower?), so even if someone were to devote all the effort to fixing one aspect, a more complex one would arise.
Now that's actually fine. One's needs will change and grow over time. But the inability of a few folks to keep up with ever growing needs and requirements should not be confused with the ability/inability of OE/Phix (and even Eu 3.1 with the right combos) to do I/O to Arduinos/rPis/etc.
That, btw, is the gauntlet being thrown down.
And has the challenge been met in your opinion?
I'm thinking it isn't inability, it's unwillingness to give up an opportunity to complain about how unfair the world is.
I guess the point I'm trying to put emphasis on here is that it isn't OE/Phix/Eu3 that has an issue.
Rather these things are doable if you use Eu with either X or Y, or else you can do Z instead, but then we have this person who doesn't want to do or use any of X, Y, or Z.
Amazing that an adult cannot learn what most middle-school girls and boys manage to do with just a few days of tinkering.
To be fair, it's this bit that really got to me:
It's a shame that Euphoria/Phix must be tied to windoze for this particular user to be useful, since Linux in particular makes it really easy to directly access physical memory like so:
mem = open("/dev/mem", "rw")
snip
And at this point i am cussing out loud. Very loud.
11. Re: inpout32
- Posted by petelomax 3 days ago
- 132 views
And has the challenge been met in your opinion?
Yep, 'cept now I suppose I really ought to go and find some cheap gadget to buy and have a play with...
I also forgot about WindowsSerialPortAccess and LinuxSerialCommunicationLibrary.
Can anyone think of a fun cheap little idea for me to try?
12. Re: inpout32
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) 1 day ago
- 71 views
I don't know if anyone noticed but I have been working on an experimental ARM64 build. I have it working on a Raspberry Pi CM4 inside a uConsole which yes (gasp) runs Raspberry Pi OS
Most of the work has been done on the Pi itself. For some reason the build is segfaulting when run on GitHub's action runner environment but not on the Pi or my normal development machine.
This should make it easier to support modern Raspberry Pi running any Debian-based Linux operating system. But getting support for embedded devices like Arduino and Pi Pico is a much bigger ball of wax.
I will continue to work at it as time allows. ARM64 support is one of my main goals towards shipping Euphoria 4.2. Being able to work anywhere from on my uConsole will make this easier. (It's a really handy device.)
-Greg
13. Re: inpout32
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) 1 day ago
- 62 views
I don't know if anyone noticed
I didn't. Consider another mind blown.
but I have been working on an experimental ARM64 build.
I will continue to work at it as time allows.
Really cool to see!
Most of the work has been done on the Pi itself. For some reason the build is segfaulting when run on GitHub's action runner environment but not on the Pi or my normal development machine.
Wow, I didn't know github offered ARM64 support yet! Nice.
ARM64 support is one of my main goals towards shipping Euphoria 4.2.
-Greg
Really pleased to hear this. I'll keep my fingers crossed, please keep up the good work!
14. Re: inpout32
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) 10 hours ago
- 34 views
Wow, I didn't know github offered ARM64 support yet! Nice.
They don't! 
I'm cross-compiling all six platforms (linux-arm, linux-arm64, linux-x86, linux-x64, windows-x86, windows-x64) on a traditional x86_64 instance using the upstream compilers from Debian.
I suspect the other builds would also fail if the ARM64 build didn't die first. They're running in parallel so it's mostly a race condition. He who fails first fails hardest.
I need to reproduce it locally first, which I've not done yet. The output of the segfault crash indicates it's something to do with map:put()?
-Greg
15. Re: inpout32
- Posted by petelomax 8 hours ago
- 28 views
The output of the segfault crash indicates it's something to do with map:put()?
I didn't look too hard, but I thought it was a "switch op do" statement - and wondered why the op parameter was declared object rather than integer(/enum).
