1. What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> Feb 04, 1999
- 514 views
It was suggested [ apologies to whoever as I don't have the original ] that the name Euphoria is one of the problems, not sounding serious enough. There is one, and only one, way to give Euphoria credibility in the current world of computer science, rename version 2.1 to ... E++ <<hugely wide grin>>
2. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Boehme, Gabriel" <gboehme at MUSICLAND.COM> Feb 04, 1999
- 456 views
"Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> wrote: >It was suggested [ apologies to whoever as I don't have the original ] >that the name Euphoria is one of the problems, not sounding serious >enough. > >There is one, and only one, way to give Euphoria credibility in the >current world of computer science, rename version 2.1 to ... > >E++ > ><<hugely wide grin>> <Gasp>! Actually, this is a really good idea. The anti-C crowd would have a fit, of course, but it's concise and spiffy-looking. "E++" also implies that it's more advanced than C++, which doesn't hurt, either. I wouldn't object to this at all. Gabriel Boehme
3. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by C & K L <candkNOSPAM2ME at TICNET.COM> Feb 04, 1999
- 466 views
I think an 'E' programming language already exists... "Boehme, Gabriel" wrote: > "Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> wrote: > > >It was suggested [ apologies to whoever as I don't have the original ] > >that the name Euphoria is one of the problems, not sounding serious > >enough. > > > >There is one, and only one, way to give Euphoria credibility in the > >current world of computer science, rename version 2.1 to ... > > > >E++ > > > ><<hugely wide grin>> > > <Gasp>! > > Actually, this is a really good idea. The anti-C crowd would have a fit, of > course, but it's concise and spiffy-looking. "E++" also implies that it's > more advanced than C++, which doesn't hurt, either. > > I wouldn't object to this at all. > > Gabriel Boehme
4. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Raude Riwal <rauder at THMULTI.COM> Feb 05, 1999
- 478 views
I understand for E . and occasionally agree. But why "++" ? does it mean classes,methods,...and structures ? Oh, not again... ...maybe E** (it's not beautiful) Seriously, how do you feel the name Euphoria? Here in france, we don't matter with names, because they almost *never* mean anything. fortran? pascal? C? algol? lisp? that are just letters put together. The difference is the reputation : some languages are *known* to be serious. Euphoria is greek, like many scientific or technical stuff; the meaning suggests it's fun (isn't it?); it sounds more or less like Eudora, which is well-known. If the name makes people laugh: it's the right name. Don't name it Lachrimae. ---------- From: Bown, John To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Subject: What's holding Euphoria back ? Date: Thursday 4 February 1999 19:13 It was suggested [ apologies to whoever as I don't have the original ] that the name Euphoria is one of the problems, not sounding serious enough. There is one, and only one, way to give Euphoria credibility in the current world of computer science, rename version 2.1 to ... E++ <<hugely wide grin>>
5. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> Feb 05, 1999
- 472 views
>Seriously, how do you feel the name Euphoria? Here in france, we don't >matter with names, because >they almost *never* mean anything. fortran? pascal? C? algol? lisp? that are >just letters put together. Fortran = FORmula TRANslation Pascal named after Blaire [Blaize?] Pascal C = Crap ( Actually evolved from BCPL, to B, to C - AFAIR ) Algol = ALGOrithmic Language Lisp = LISt Processing Cobol =COmmon Business Oriented Language Ada = Named after Linda's sister ) Should have been called 18++ ?? ) I personally have no problem with the name "Euphoria", I suggested E++ as a bit of a joke, but it does seem to be what everyone else is doing to hype their own languages ( Note Microsofts Java became J++ ! ) As Gabriel said, it would really upset the C++ crowd; as they say in the UK, ther's nothing like extracting the urine I agree that the RDS home page could do with a re-vamp. The Euphoria name logo looks like a child of two [ apologies to children of two ] made it. My recommended steps for success ... 1) Confirm a name / make a logo ( Times New Roman chiseled on grey marble block appeals to me ) 2) Get the web site up to a good 'commercial appearance' 3) Point out it's free / only 500K download 4) Keep the 'sexy, fun etc' stuff, but on a 'personal users' page 5) Start plugging in Byte magazine, Computing, Dr Dobbs etc etc 6) Keep mentioning the Free word 7) Downplay the 'interpreted' nature ( easy as BIND produces .EXE 8) Plug the MS-DOS / Win32 compatibility lots PS : I forgot to thank RDS for the efforts in getting the manuals into HTML for v2., I tried it myself with v2.0 and it was a long, long, hard slog. Until you've tried it you don't realise the effort involved - well done to RDS.
6. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Lewis Townsend <keroltarr at HOTMAIL.COM> Feb 05, 1999
- 477 views
John Bown Wrote: >My recommended steps for success ... > >1) Confirm a name / make a logo ( Times New Roman chiseled on grey >marble block appeals to me ) >2) Get the web site up to a good 'commercial appearance' >3) Point out it's free / only 500K download >4) Keep the 'sexy, fun etc' stuff, but on a 'personal users' page >5) Start plugging in Byte magazine, Computing, Dr Dobbs etc etc >6) Keep mentioning the Free word >7) Downplay the 'interpreted' nature ( easy as BIND produces .EXE >8) Plug the MS-DOS / Win32 compatibility lots These sound like good ideas to me except the first one. The words "chiseled" and "marble block" imply rigidity and inflexability to me. This does not at all discribe Euphoria. "Grey" sounds boring and monochromatic which again is unlike Euphoria. The conotations I get from those statements may be very different from what others get but I think that the visual and text of a website should reflect the products qualities and traits. I kinda like the magenta colors of the web site but I agree the graphics could stand some reworking. I think the Euphoria logo should look like it tastes good, smells good, and even feels good to touch. It should look pliable enough to be molded into any shape or form which to me symbolizes what all programming languages are about (the ability to create anything- and Euphoria has the consistency that makes this very easy). It should also look solid enough that it couldn't be ripped appart or mixed up ("Uehprioa") meaning that you must follow the rules (more-so than even other languages) but without many sharp edges implying that these rules are not painful to follow. In short the Euphoria logo should be an artistic masterpiece full of symbolic meaning and emotional stimulation. Sorry if I've waxed too phylosofical on you all but This thread about the graphical needs of the Euphoria web site seems MUCH more interesting to me than the one on structures, arrays and the like. However, I wonder if the person that stated that the Euphoria web site contained "garrish colors" thought about the designer of said web site. Also the person that compared the logo artist's work to that of a two-year-old probably never considdered the FEELINGS of said logo artist. Sincerely, Lewis Townsend keroltarr at hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
7. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Leung, Ying-Kit" <Ying-Kit.Leung at CAN.XEROX.COM> Feb 05, 1999
- 474 views
Try to make it a compiler and add the ability to use libraries. (I mean its own libraries). Thanks!
8. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> Feb 08, 1999
- 470 views
>However, I wonder if the person that stated that the Euphoria web site >contained "garrish colors" thought about the designer of said web site. >Also the person that compared the logo artist's work to that of a >two-year-old probably never considdered the FEELINGS of said logo >artist. > >Sincerely, >Lewis Townsend >keroltarr at hotmail.com > I hold my hand up there; apologies to anyone who I offended.
9. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Ad Rienks <kwibus at DOLFIJN.NL> Feb 14, 1999
- 483 views
Greetings to all, Although I'm about a week late with this response, I would like to add = my opinion to the discussion of the 'outside appearance of Euphoria'. There have been a lot of complaints about the name, the web site, the l= ogo etc. as being not serious enough. Other people would giggle or grin= if you said your program was written in Euphoria. But, let me ask you, was it a good program? Was it easier to write it i= n Euphoria than in another language? Why else did you write it in Eupho= ria? If it's a good program, that does what it has to do, with a good user i= nterface, who cares in what language it was written? I think that you yourself as a programmer are looking to be taken serio= us, independant of the language you're writing in. If people aren't tak= ing you serious, is that because of yourself, the programs you produce,= or the programming language they are written in? Is the name really an issue? There are quite some serious programmers, = most of them scientists, writing programs in 'Python'. The language is = named after a British comic TV program. Very comic indeed, but totally = weird, and not to be taken serious in the way you define the word. I think I understand the message Robert Craig is giving to the world: I= f you want to have fun programming, if you want to be simple, safe and = sexy, use Euphoria. The language itself should be taken very serious, just because it is fu= n programming it, especially if you come from another language that's n= ot that funny. And to programmers that are making fun of Euphoria I would say: Go ahea= d, keep on programming in your not-so-funny but very serious languages,= and let us have a laugh when you struggle with undetectable bugs, memo= ry leaks and the like all through the night. And if you really want a new name for Euphoria, what about 'Ease&Fun', = or something the like? Regards, Ad Rienks | Gratis e-mail en meer: http://www.dolfijn.nl/ | Een product van Ilse: http://www.ilse.nl/
10. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Quality <quality at ANNEX.COM> Feb 15, 1999
- 475 views
Boehme, Gabriel <gboehme at MUSICLAND.COM> wrote: >"Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> wrote: > >>It was suggested [ apologies to whoever as I don't have the original ] >>that the name Euphoria is one of the problems, not sounding serious >>enough. >> >>There is one, and only one, way to give Euphoria credibility in the >>current world of computer science, rename version 2.1 to ... >> >>E++ >> >><<hugely wide grin>> > ><Gasp>! > >Actually, this is a really good idea. The anti-C crowd would have a fit, of >course, but it's concise and spiffy-looking. "E++" also implies that it's >more advanced than C++, which doesn't hurt, either. > >I wouldn't object to this at all. > >Gabriel Boehme With all respect Gabriel this is a BAD idea for several reasons... 1. There already is a language called "E" so that's a dead end before we start. We could call it "E32++v2.1" but I think not ... 2. The term "C++" is used to denote object oriented capabilities vs plain old "C". While true OOP would be cool in Euphoria it just isn't there now so the name would be misleading and disappoint people looking for something more advanced than C++. 3. The C++ crowd looking for something more advanced would take one look at the syntax and run screaming in terror... it is way to simple for their tastes. 4. Even if all the above were not true it would only be a matter of time before "E++" was superceded by a language called "F++". In fact, When I program I sometimes use a some similar languages such as "F+++!", "D+++!", and "S+++!". When I really have a difficult project I break out the super-language... "*&@% $*(& $^%$*( F+++$~% *(&^ 87 @ * (#&^) !!!!" <grin>
11. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Quality <quality at ANNEX.COM> Feb 15, 1999
- 479 views
Raude Riwal <rauder at THMULTI.COM> wrote: >Here in france, we don't matter with names, because they almost *never* mean anything. fortran? pascal? C? algol? lisp? that are just letters put together. Raude you should be ashamed of yourself... Not only do you not capitalize France to show respect for your country's name, but you apparently know nothing of your country's history either... Pascal is named after one of the world's greatest mathemeticians, Blaise Pascal, a native son of France. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Pascal.html
12. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Quality <quality at ANNEX.COM> Feb 15, 1999
- 478 views
Noah.. you sent this to my private email instead of the mail-list... -----Original Message----- From: noah smith <nhs6080 at unix.tamu.edu> To: Quality <quality at ANNEX.COM> Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 10:45 AM Subject: re: Re: What's holding Euphoria back ? >I just downloaded euphoria 2.1, and a bunch of winlib32 resources, including Cuny's winlib32. But every time i try to run an .exw, i get a "can't find C:\windows\desktop\euphoria.exw". > >I do not have this file anywhere on my computer. > >thx. > >snortboy > >
13. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Boehme, Gabriel" <gboehme at MUSICLAND.COM> Feb 15, 1999
- 475 views
Quality <quality at ANNEX.COM> wrote: >4. Even if all the above were not true it would only be a matter of time >before "E++" was superceded by a language called "F++". In fact, When I >program I sometimes use a some similar languages such as "F+++!", "D+++!", >and "S+++!". When I really have a difficult project I break out the >super-language... >"*&@% $*(& $^%$*( F+++$~% *(&^ 87 @ * (#&^) !!!!" > ><grin> <ROTFLOL>!!!!! Actually, the more I think about it -- and the more I read the alternative name ideas -- the more "Euphoria" stands out as a unique and memorable name. So I guess I'm going to reverse my position and say that the name "Euphoria" is just fine and doesn't need to be changed at all. Sure, some programmers may still laugh; but when *they're* using the languages listed above, *we'll* be the ones who have the last laugh! :) Euphoria Phorever :) Gabriel Boehme
14. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Jiri Babor <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ> Feb 16, 1999
- 472 views
Quality wrote: >Raude Riwal <rauder at THMULTI.COM> wrote: >>Here in france, we don't matter with names, because they almost *never* >mean anything. fortran? pascal? C? algol? lisp? that are just letters put >together. > >Raude you should be ashamed of yourself... Not only do you not capitalize >France to show respect for your country's name, but you apparently know >nothing of your country's history either... Pascal is named after one of the >world's greatest mathemeticians, Blaise Pascal, a native son of France. > >See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Pascal.html Why did you not respond to Raude in his native tongue? I will not even hazard a guess. And it may be a good idea to spell check your own piece when you criticise somebody else's spelling. jiri
15. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Raude Riwal <rauder at THMULTI.COM> Feb 16, 1999
- 489 views
Of course I knew that, what I wanted to say is that the name has few significance for the developper, and for his boss... Blaise Pascal was not only a mathematician, but also a philosoph (? is it english ?) and collaborated to the "Encyclopedie" with Diderot, Rousseau and many others. I thought it was not that interesting on this list, and apologize to have been so short... -No shame for france, cause I'm a true proud breton ... but that's another debate My first name is Riwal, we have the stupid habit to put the last first. sorry. Evit Breizh da viken Riwal Raude rauder at thmulti.com ---------- From: Quality To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Subject: Re: What's holding Euphoria back ? Date: Monday 15 February 1999 19:32 Raude Riwal <rauder at THMULTI.COM> wrote: >Here in france, we don't matter with names, because they almost *never* mean anything. fortran? pascal? C? algol? lisp? that are just letters put together. Raude you should be ashamed of yourself... Not only do you not capitalize France to show respect for your country's name, but you apparently know nothing of your country's history either... Pascal is named after one of the world's greatest mathemeticians, Blaise Pascal, a native son of France. See http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Pascal.html
16. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Quality <quality at ANNEX.COM> Feb 16, 1999
- 475 views
Jiri Babor <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ> wrote: >Why did you not respond to Raude in his native tongue? I will not even hazard a >guess. And it may be a good idea to spell check your own piece when you >criticise somebody else's spelling. jiri 1. Because I don't speak French (very well). 2. Because he posted in English to begin with. 3. While you are correct that I did not spell check, I was not criticizing his spelling but rather the lack of simple respect of capitalizing his country's name (or any name for that matter). I know that I publicly flamed Raude, and I would like to publicly apologize for that. I am sorry for my outburst Raude, it was unprofessional. I just am saddened by the lack of historic perspective that is no longer taught in programming classes these days... A lot of Computer Science graduates seem to have not even a basic understanding of how computer languages have evolved and all the hard work that went into giving them the power they now enjoy. Q.
17. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Boehme, Gabriel" <gboehme at MUSICLAND.COM> Feb 17, 1999
- 484 views
Quality <quality at ANNEX.COM> wrote: >I just am saddened by the lack of historic perspective that is no longer >taught in programming classes these days... A lot of Computer Science >graduates seem to have not even a basic understanding of how computer >languages have evolved and all the hard work that went into giving them the >power they now enjoy. This has been a concern of mine as well. It seems to me -- at least in the U.S., perhaps this is also true elsewhere -- that Computer Science (and much of the educational system) is only concerned with teaching the "how to"s, and not much, if any, of the hows and whys. Many of today's fast-paced computer degrees reward those who can easily memorize all the contradictory rules that have become part of a language (such as C), but doesn't reward those who try to examine *why* it works the way it does, or how it came to be that way. While you don't *need* to learn the history or the concepts behind a language to program in it, the degree to which these things are ignored is appalling. Since many CompSci students don't know or understand the history of programming, they don't know *why* one language is better than the other, or *how* languages have developed in the past and may develop in the future. Many come to like a language simply Because That's The Language Everybody Uses, So It Must Be The Best. This lack of interest in the whys and hows is also, IMO, part of why Euphoria's been having a hard time getting its due. For today's programmers to understand what makes Euphoria so revolutionary, they would have to understand how it changes the way they can program -- they would have to know the whys and hows behind the way they currently program in other languages to understand the fundamental changes they can make to their approach in Euphoria. But because today's programmers are locked into rule-memorization -- with little or no understanding of the concepts and ideals at work -- they don't get it. They would simply look at the superficial aspects of the language, and complain about the lack of a flashy Windows interface, lack of their pet feature(s) from some other language, etc. Not that these are irrelevant or unimportant -- indeed, *I'd* sure love to see a flashy Windows interface for Euphoria -- but focusing exclusively on superficial differences can cause them to overlook what's actually there. Instead of learning and discovering what makes Euphoria Euphoria, they'd simply put it down because it isn't Visual Basic, or because it isn't C, or because it isn't Java. And there's obviously no easy solution for this one. In many programmers' minds, a language can't possibly be any good if it isn't supported by some huge company. This may partially be a support thing -- nobody wants to write important programs in a language that'll disappear from the face of the earth the next week -- but it's also very much a lack of understanding. If the programmers would look at Euphoria for what it *is*, rather what it *isn't*, there would be more interest. But it's easier to code on autopilot, with methodologies and rules fixed. Especially with today's detail-filled, increasingly complex languages -- they've got their hands full just *learning* the features of the languages they supposedly already know, so why in the world would they bother learning an entirely different language which actually forces them to change some of their methods and assumptions about programming? This is the frustration I feel when trying to introduce Euphoria to other programmers. They just don't look at it closely enough to understand what makes it so revolutionary. They're comfortable with what they already know, and don't want to learn some useless, interpreted, no-flashy-windows-interface language that's still primarily DOS-based. I can try imploring them to look beyond the superficial, describe to them the concept and power of sequences, the ecstacy of freedom from semicolons, etc., etc. But paradigms don't budge easily -- like glaciers, they shift VEEEERRRY slowly. And only when they have to. The recent posts about getting Euphoria into programming classrooms is definitely a step in the right direction. Show them the language while their minds are still open enough to look at all the possibilities, while it can still have a formative influence on the way they program, and on the way they *think* about programming. I discovered Euphoria on the internet at around the same time I was learning new programming languages at college, and the fact that I was being exposed to many new languages definitely helped me to learn Euphoria more quickly, as well as recognizing how unusual and unique it was compared to all the other languages. Anyway, I guess that's sort of my long frustration vent. Am I right on the money? Or am I way off the mark? Gabriel Boehme
18. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> Feb 18, 1999
- 466 views
>In many programmers' >minds, a language can't possibly be any good if it isn't supported by some >huge company. This may partially be a support thing -- nobody wants to write >important programs in a language that'll disappear from the face of the >earth the next week -- but it's also very much a lack of understanding. If >the programmers would look at Euphoria for what it *is*, rather what it >*isn't*, there would be more interest. I chose to use Euphoria because of what it offered; overcoming the 64K/640K barrier with sequences has allowed me to port ( rewrite ) the text editor which I had written in TurboBasic which had hit the memory limit brick wall. I had decided to live with this dead-end development because I didn't want to, and couldn't be bothered to, learn C ( too much to do , too little time ) to rewrite and then I stumbled on Euphoria by chance. I only really jumped at Euphoria because it offered me a solution to my problem at that time and this is the best reason for learning a language; because you need to, which is still why I'm not that familiar with C ! It was a 'surfing accident' that led me to Euphoria and a fluke that I found it was a solution to what I wanted ( if ED.EX hadn't existed I perhaps wouldn't have thought of using it to re-code the editor ). I nearly missed Euphoria which would have been a shame ( still not finished the editor yet ! ), how many others are also missing it ? Getting it wider acclaim, especially in the classroom, is the first step forward. It may be a slow process but the user base does appear to widening.
19. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Ralf Nieuwenhuijsen <nieuwen at XS4ALL.NL> Feb 18, 1999
- 475 views
>Getting it wider acclaim, especially in the classroom, is the first step >forward. It may be a slow process but the user base does appear to >widening. The problem with the 'big' customers, is, I think, that it has no name. Say company X has to write some code for eh.. say a telephone company (y2k related, for example) .. then what would happen, if they even choose to do so in Euphoria ? The 'client' will say, 'no way' .. because no body knows Euphoria, and they would be tight up to company X for future support, or eventually need a rewrite in a completely new language. Thats one of the bottle necks. So, people just knowing the name, is crucial. Watch a few commercials, and you'll notice they arent really saying anything, except that one word that they want you to remember. They emphasize it, you only know the name of the product, you almost never remember the contents of the rest of the 'message'. You could call it brainwashing, but thats simply why Java did make it in a very short time. But there's more. For new unknown language to survive there have to be a number of problems, where they really set the current crowd apart. So, that, financially the choice for Euphoria would be big. Java was platform independent and completely OO. THere was no other way to program completely platform independednt in such a high level safe way. And OO was pretty much a hype. Other than that, they kept it as much C as possible so the jump wouldnt be big for C programmers. It was simply a really smart strategy, the choice for language features, the name, the fact they everybody knew the name, cuz netscape and MS had to explain why we needed to download another 10 mb browser update for the latest futures. Esspecially this association with browsers is how they got that little attention they wanted. Ralf And no there's nothing constructive in this mail, only explenoraty. I hate marketing, and will not give any advise on how to brainwash, other than: don't.
20. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Grape Vine <chat_town at HOTMAIL.COM> Feb 18, 1999
- 481 views
You gave me a idea....If some one(i dont think me) could port the netscape browser to E and then make a new pulg in type(just a E file that can call and work with and in the browser) that could get alot of people start in new ideas for web site design....I know i would ~love~ toy be able to use E in making FX for my web site...I could do things better(in my mind) and faster then in java(im told it is slow). I could be a tokenize version of E(program in normal E then convert and compress it for faster downloading for surfing)...Would not realy be that hard to tokenize E(or so i think)...Im not sure what the law is bout the use and such of the souce for NS but it could be a great way to get people to use a form of E. My mind is racing at what could be done....I dont get me wrong...im not a MS basher but i do think some of what they do just to make sure that some one uses there programs(mainly the stuff that happend with the OGL and D3D stuff) that if only NS suported this form of E and if it truly gave people something better, faster and easier to use then ...what was i saying? i have no clue where i was going with that...I'm just saying soem one should try this..I my self have no clue but maybe someone on the list does? Grape Vine >>Getting it wider acclaim, especially in the classroom, is the first step >>forward. It may be a slow process but the user base does appear to >>widening. > > >The problem with the 'big' customers, is, I think, that it has no name. Say company X has to write some code for eh.. say a >telephone company (y2k related, for example) .. then what would happen, if they even choose to do so in Euphoria ? The 'client' >will say, 'no way' .. because no body knows Euphoria, and they would be tight up to company X for future support, or eventually >need a rewrite in a completely new language. > >Thats one of the bottle necks. So, people just knowing the name, is crucial. Watch a few commercials, and you'll notice they >arent really saying anything, except that one word that they want you to remember. They emphasize it, you only know the name of >the product, you almost never remember the contents of the rest of the 'message'. You could call it brainwashing, but thats >simply why Java did make it in a very short time. > >But there's more. For new unknown language to survive there have to be a number of problems, where they really set the current >crowd apart. So, that, financially the choice for Euphoria would be big. > >Java was platform independent and completely OO. THere was no other way to program completely platform independednt in such a >high level safe way. And OO was pretty much a hype. Other than that, they kept it as much C as possible so the jump wouldnt be >big for C programmers. It was simply a really smart strategy, the choice for language features, the name, the fact they >everybody knew the name, cuz netscape and MS had to explain why we needed to download another 10 mb browser update for the >latest futures. Esspecially this association with browsers is how they got that little attention they wanted. > >Ralf > >And no there's nothing constructive in this mail, only explenoraty. I hate marketing, and will not give any advise on how to >brainwash, other than: don't. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
21. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Raude Riwal <rauder at THMULTI.COM> Feb 19, 1999
- 483 views
About the browser: that would be great. Let us call it Euzilla ! But about the plug-ins, you should not forget those who will access your site with Apple or Linux. I'm not satisfied with java too, but any platform has it... so we need X-Euphoria for linux, another for Beos, one for Atari and another for Amiga (I would like a small PC-XT version too for my HP200LX.. That's the price for A M$ Free World ... Riwal Raude rauder at thmulti.com ---------- From: Grape Vine To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU Subject: Re: What's holding Euphoria back ? Date: Thursday 18 February 1999 20:50 You gave me a idea....If some one(i dont think me) could port the netscape browser to E and then make a new pulg in type(just a E file that can call and work with and in the browser) that could get alot of people start in new ideas for web site design....I know i would ~love~ toy be able to use E in making FX for my web site...I could do things better(in my mind) and faster then in java(im told it is slow). I could be a tokenize version of E(program in normal E then convert and compress it for faster downloading for surfing)...Would not realy be that hard to tokenize E(or so i think)...Im not sure what the law is bout the use and such of the souce for NS but it could be a great way to get people to use a form of E. My mind is racing at what could be done....I dont get me wrong...im not a MS basher but i do think some of what they do just to make sure that some one uses there programs(mainly the stuff that happend with the OGL and D3D stuff) that if only NS suported this form of E and if it truly gave people something better, faster and easier to use then ...what was i saying? i have no clue where i was going with that...I'm just saying soem one should try this..I my self have no clue but maybe someone on the list does? Grape Vine
22. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by "Bown, John" <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> Feb 19, 1999
- 455 views
> >You gave me a idea....If some one(i dont think me) could port the >netscape browser to E and then make a new pulg in type(just a E file >that can call and work with and in the browser) I'd thought about the role of Euphora as a replacement for Java; it would certainly be a lot easier to use, however, the problem of take-up would occur; I haven't even got ShockWave installed and a lot of people might be a little unhappy about having to load the Euphoria Engine just to view a web page ( "Why can't they use Java, like everyone else ?" ). That said, Euphoria would undoubtedly run a lot quicker than Java I'm sure. Rather than rewrite NS ( and then port it to all platforms Linux, Mac etc ); why not concentrate on Plug-Ins for browsers ? I know it can be done with IE at least. I would seriously suggest not implementing a browser as the danger is that MS will come up with some new fangled concept which you than have to implement, which may be hard, Hmm, I wonder why MS do this ? DHTML is now a standard AFAIR but does anyone really think that will stop MS creating its own variants ?
23. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Grape Vine <chat_town at HOTMAIL.COM> Feb 19, 1999
- 475 views
I agree...Thats why i said to tokenize it...so a apple can recive the same file as my Intel machine and it calls the correct code for that machine....The way java works...I do think that NS has been ported to a apple..not sure but if so then some one who knows apple programing( i have never used a apple for programming)..As for the X-Euphoria... Pick a differnt name...I have used linix and i dislike all that X stuff... But if thats the name that 'sells'(gets ppl to use it..i dont know if this would be some thing you want to make money on or not.. you want ~everyone~ to use it) PS im not done thinking what i was saying...i lost my train of though in a huge derailment...all i can think now is 'kill barney'.. Grape.. >About the browser: that would be great. Let us call it Euzilla ! >But about the plug-ins, you should not forget those who will access >your site with Apple or Linux. I'm not satisfied with java too, but >any platform has it... so we need X-Euphoria for linux, another >for Beos, one for Atari and another for Amiga (I would like a >small PC-XT version too for my HP200LX.. >That's the price for A M$ Free World ... > >Riwal Raude >rauder at thmulti.com > > ---------- >From: Grape Vine >To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU >Subject: Re: What's holding Euphoria back ? >Date: Thursday 18 February 1999 20:50 > >You gave me a idea....If some one(i dont think me) could port the >netscape browser to E and then make a new pulg in type(just a E file >that can call and work with and in the browser) that could get alot of >people start in new ideas for web site design....I know i would ~love~ >toy be able to use E in making FX for my web site...I could do things >better(in my mind) and faster then in java(im told it is slow). I could >be a tokenize version of E(program in normal E then convert and compress >it for faster downloading for surfing)...Would not realy be that hard to >tokenize E(or so i think)...Im not sure what the law is bout the use and >such of the souce for NS but it could be a great way to get people to >use a form of E. My mind is racing at what could be done....I dont get >me wrong...im not a MS basher but i do think some of what they do just >to make sure that some one uses there programs(mainly the stuff that >happend with the OGL and D3D stuff) that if only NS suported this form >of E and if it truly gave people something better, faster and easier to >use then ...what was i saying? i have no clue where i was going with >that...I'm just saying soem one should try this..I my self have no clue >but maybe someone on the list does? > >Grape Vine > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
24. Re: What's holding Euphoria back ?
- Posted by Grape Vine <chat_town at HOTMAIL.COM> Feb 19, 1999
- 501 views
First..If you use our version of NS then the E is load right along with java...People would not even know(cept of corse b\y the outstanding quality of the page) that ppl were using E...the only people that would know is the one who dont have it...eg anyone using any MS browser...=)...or a none E enabled one....I dont care what MS says is the newest thing to suport...Im not here to serve them...Ther are alot of pages out there that are MS only...And they did that so people ~had~ to use there browser ...Yes i agree a plug in would be easier..i have no clue how to do this as i have never tried ... Ill look into it some time... Grape >>You gave me a idea....If some one(i dont think me) could port the >>netscape browser to E and then make a new pulg in type(just a E file >>that can call and work with and in the browser) > >I'd thought about the role of Euphora as a replacement for Java; it >would certainly be a lot easier to use, however, the problem of take-up >would occur; I haven't even got ShockWave installed and a lot of people >might be a little unhappy about having to load the Euphoria Engine just >to view a web page ( "Why can't they use Java, like everyone else ?" ). > >That said, Euphoria would undoubtedly run a lot quicker than Java I'm >sure. > >Rather than rewrite NS ( and then port it to all platforms Linux, Mac >etc ); why not concentrate on Plug-Ins for browsers ? I know it can be >done with IE at least. > >I would seriously suggest not implementing a browser as the danger is >that MS will come up with some new fangled concept which you than have >to implement, which may be hard, Hmm, I wonder why MS do this ? >DHTML is now a standard AFAIR but does anyone really think that will >stop MS creating its own variants ? > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com