1. RE: Future of Euphoria
Hi Dan,
Over the years I think I have sent 3 or 4 emails with pretty much
the same topic ("Euphoria's Future") or something very similiar!!!
Point 1:
If your seriously interested in earning a living programming learn
as many languages as you can. Learn some of the popular ones very
well (like Java, Visual Basic, C++ or Delphi). If you have time left
over play with Euphoria as much as you like :)
The point is don't count on Euphoria being a popular professional
language.
Point 2:
My view is ... if you want to make Euphoria more popular create
something that will impress other people. This can include ...
* Software of any kind, (games, business apps, utilities, libraries,
web apps).
* A Web page(s) - there are lots of things you can write about like:
1. An in depth review of contributed software in the archive, screen
shots, instructions, comparisons with similiar software.
2. Getting started guide.
3. A tutorial on any area of programming ... a good one would be how
to use DLL's and shared libraries!
4. How to write games
... just being a little bit silly ...
if Doom or Quake had of been written using Euphoria how popular would
it be now???
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
dm31 at uow.edu.au wrote:
> Srry if you get this twice. I sent in half a day ago and still haven't
> got it back.
>
> The Future for Euphoria
>
> I first started Euphoria 3 years ago and had come from a background of
> Basic, ASM and Pascal. Althought I could see the advantages of this
> langauge, I wasn't sure on how much could actually be achieved with
> it. With time my respect for Eu grew greatly with librarys like
> truecolr.e, asm.e, and through some of the games (like lemon). Last
> year I was used Eu for my major project in Software Design &
> Development (A new "Higher School Certificate" course) where it was
> worth 40% of my mark for the year. I really needed time profile to
> optimise my program (it was 20+ printed pages) and since I could not
> afford the Complete Ed, I asked if the school could purchase it.
> Before they would agree I had to convince the teacher that I would
> benefit by using this as a opposed to Delphi 4 like most of the other
> students. After downloading heaps from the contrib page I finally
> convinced him (Rob will know the guy as Brett Hughes).
>
> My Grandfather works at Kaz Computing in Australia as a programmer. He
> got interested in Eu after seeing me use it, so I made a CD with
> Euphoria with some of the more popular librarys and games.
>
> I can't speak for all the you, but being young I would like to think
> that I can make a living with Euphoria just like a programmer using
> C++ can. Rob has done a fantastic job with Euphoria with it truly
> world-wide, but I sure most people would agree, that for Euphoria to
> go to the popularity of the more know languages is that Euphoria needs
> to more widely know in the programming community, and hence have more
> programmers.
>
> First, I believe that there should be a second standard zip that can
> be downloaded with the Euphoria Pub. Ed. with some of the most used
> librarys and programs, such as WinLib all setup for you. That we,
> people who join Euphoria can easily download libraries the will most
> probilibly be of use, and hence more likely to continue using
> Euphoria.
>
> I have found two companies that may be of use in making Euphoria
> 'Bigger'
>
> The first is a company called 'SoftWrap' It provides a way of
> distributing your program to a large market of users through such
> things as magizines. You wrap your software in the Softwrap installer,
> then Softwrap distributes it. The installer gives you two options,
> enabling you two distribute a trial version, if the user wishes to
> purchase the full version, they then pay by credit card and recieve a
> code to activite the full version installion. This could be used to
> distribute Euphoria, or programs that we write with it. (They take
> less then 10% of the profits, more profits, less % taking)
>
> The second company is Asynchrony. It's a company that is acts as a
> very large meeting point for all people in software development. You
> make, or join a project, finish the software and Asynchrony will do
> all the marketing and sell and give you a large cut of the profits. I
> joined back in it's beta days and quite like it's layout and format.
> The only thing is that the programmers that are their are all C++, VB
> or Delphi. Maybe we could make Euphoria a presence their and start
> some Euphoria projects.
>
> Ah, well. Just so ideas to think about. Let me hear you comments
>
> Regards,
> Dan McG
>
> ps
>
> to see what I'm talking about visit
>
> www.softwrap.com ?? i think
>
> www.asynchrony.com
>
>
>
2. RE: Future of Euphoria
Thank you for your help.
Best regards,
Chris
On Sun, 26 May 2002 12:47:48 +0000, Ray Smith wrote:
>
>Hi Dan,
>
>Over the years I think I have sent 3 or 4 emails with pretty=
much
>the same topic ("Euphoria's Future") or something very=
similiar!!!
>
>Point 1:
>If your seriously interested in earning a living programming=
learn
>as many languages as you can. =A0Learn some of the popular ones=
very
>well (like Java, Visual Basic, C++ or Delphi). If you have time=
left
>over play with Euphoria as much as you like :)
>The point is don't count on Euphoria being a popular=
professional
>language.
>
>Point 2:
>My view is ... if you want to make Euphoria more popular create
>something that will impress other people. =A0This can include ...
>* Software of any kind, (games, business apps, utilities,=
libraries,
>web apps).
>* A Web page(s) - there are lots of things you can write about=
like:
>=A01. =A0An in depth review of contributed software in the archive,
>screen
>shots, instructions, comparisons with similiar software.
>=A02. =A0Getting started guide.
>=A03. =A0A tutorial on any area of programming ... a good one would=
be
>how
>to use DLL's and shared libraries!
>=A04. =A0How to write games
>
>... just being a little bit silly ...
>if Doom or Quake had of been written using Euphoria how popular
>would
>it be now???
>
>Ray Smith
>http://rays-web.com
>
>
>dm31 at uow.edu.au wrote:
>>=A0Srry if you get this twice. I sent in half a day ago and=
still
>>haven't
>>=A0got it back.
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0The Future for Euphoria
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0I first started Euphoria 3 years ago and had come from a
>>background of
>>=A0Basic, ASM and Pascal. Althought I could see the advantages=
of
>>this
>>=A0langauge, I wasn't sure on how much could actually be=
achieved
>>with
>>=A0it. With time my respect for Eu grew greatly with librarys=
like
>>
>>=A0truecolr.e, asm.e, and through some of the games (like=
lemon).
>>Last
>>=A0year I was used Eu for my major project in Software Design &
>>
>>=A0Development (A new "Higher School Certificate" course) where=
it
>>was
>>=A0worth 40% of my mark for the year. I really needed time=
profile to
>>
>>=A0optimise my program (it was 20+ printed pages) and since I=
could
>>not
>>=A0afford the Complete Ed, I asked if the school could purchase=
it.
>>
>>=A0Before they would agree I had to convince the teacher that I=
would
>>
>>=A0benefit by using this as a opposed to Delphi 4 like most of=
the
>>other
>>=A0students. After downloading heaps from the contrib page I=
finally
>>
>>=A0convinced him (Rob will know the guy as Brett Hughes).
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0My Grandfather works at Kaz Computing in Australia as a
>>programmer. He
>>=A0got interested in Eu after seeing me use it, so I made a CD=
with
>>
>>=A0Euphoria with some of the more popular librarys and games.
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0I can't speak for all the you, but being young I would like=
to
>>think
>>=A0that I can make a living with Euphoria just like a programmer
>>using
>>=A0C++ can. Rob has done a fantastic job with Euphoria with it=
truly
>>
>>=A0world-wide, but I sure most people would agree, that for=
Euphoria
>>to
>>=A0go to the popularity of the more know languages is that=
Euphoria
>>needs
>>=A0to more widely know in the programming community, and hence=
have
>>more
>>=A0programmers.
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0First, I believe that there should be a second standard zip=
that
>>can
>>=A0be downloaded with the Euphoria Pub. Ed. with some of the=
most
>>used
>>=A0librarys and programs, such as WinLib all setup for you. That=
we,
>>
>>=A0people who join Euphoria can easily download libraries the=
will
>>most
>>=A0probilibly be of use, and hence more likely to continue using
>>
>>=A0Euphoria.
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0I have found two companies that may be of use in making=
Euphoria
>>
>>=A0'Bigger'
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0The first is a company called 'SoftWrap' It provides a way of
>>
>>=A0distributing your program to a large market of users through=
such
>>
>>=A0things as magizines. You wrap your software in the Softwrap
>>installer,
>>=A0then Softwrap distributes it. The installer gives you two=
options,
>>
>>=A0enabling you two distribute a trial version, if the user=
wishes to
>>
>>=A0purchase the full version, they then pay by credit card and
>>recieve a
>>=A0code to activite the full version installion. This could be=
used
>>to
>>=A0distribute Euphoria, or programs that we write with it. (They=
take
>>
>>=A0less then 10% of the profits, more profits, less % taking)
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0The second company is Asynchrony. It's a company that is acts=
as a
>>
>>=A0very large meeting point for all people in software=
development.
>>You
>>=A0make, or join a project, finish the software and Asynchrony=
will
>>do
>>=A0all the marketing and sell and give you a large cut of the
>>profits. I
>>=A0joined back in it's beta days and quite like it's layout and
>>format.
>>=A0The only thing is that the programmers that are their are all=
C++,
>>VB
>>=A0or Delphi. Maybe we could make Euphoria a presence their and=
start
>>
>>=A0some Euphoria projects.
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0Ah, well. Just so ideas to think about. Let me hear you=
comments
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0Regards,
>>
>>=A0Dan McG
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0ps
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0to see what I'm talking about visit
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0www.softwrap.com ?? i think
>>
>>
>>
>>=A0www.asynchrony.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
3. RE: Future of Euphoria
Hi, I'm new here, and would like to contribute what I know to the following
subject:
>Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 12:47:48 +0000
>From: Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
>Subject: RE: Future of Euphoria
>...Point 2:
>My view is ... if you want to make Euphoria more popular create
>something that will impress other people. This can include ...
>* Software of any kind, (games, business apps, utilities, libraries,
>web apps).
>* A Web page(s) - there are lots of things you can write about like:
> 1. An in depth review of contributed software in the archive, screen
>shots, instructions, comparisons with similiar software.
> 2. Getting started guide.
> 3. A tutorial on any area of programming ... a good one would be how
>to use DLL's and shared libraries!
> 4. How to write games...
>Ray Smith
To show a timely example of this timely point, consider that I emailed
Euphoria's official email addy from the Eu site a couple days ago and
received this reply (including my question at top):
************BEGIN EMAIL TRANSCRIPT*****************
> Do you have a list of (notable) end-user stand-alone .exe progams which
> might represent what has and can be done with Euphoria ?
Impressive DOS Games:
LemonHeads (5Mb)
OidZone
Go through the 900+ file Archive,
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/archive.htm
looking at the programs that have the highest
"MicroEconomy" money - the little happy face symbol.
Those are (by and large) the best programs (or libraries).
To save space, some are not in .exe form, so you'll need to
install Euphoria first to run them. With the registered version
of Euphoria, you can make any program into a stand-alone .exe.
Some games and finished programs didn't get much
MicroEconomy money because, while impressive,
they aren't particularly useful to the programmers who do the voting.
Regards,
Rob Craig
**************END EMAIL TRANSCRIPT*****************
I have to say that this doesn't quite cut the mustard, and, although I was
very interested in Euphoria as a simpler alternative to the C+'s to learn
(I have learned BASIC and LISP only), I'm not too convinced that it's worth
my investment of time to learn if I wish to create professional
applications.
I cannot say that you'll succeed very well in attracting attention if you
don't have anything to attract attention with; furthermore, having to d/l
and install Euphoria just to see what it can do outside of Euphoria is
mighty backwards in reasoning, not at all an impressive feat for a
programming language, and even presumes Euphorian knowledge -YIKES!!!!
Certainly having at least an excellent installer and editing environment (I
point out a freeware HTML editor, "1st Page 2000" as comfortable ideal to be
aspired to) would be a nice start.
If you are concerned about Euphoria's future, you might want to take heed to
what Mr. Rob Craig has pointed out. A quick suvey of the work done in
Euphoria shows lots of programs about programming Euphoria, with, evidently,
only two impressive DOS games to show for it all.
(I mean no offense to the respective pogrammers, but DOS games are no longer
considered impressive by the general public, nor by professional
programmers.)
You may have argument to this, but that's exactly as it appears to the
outsider.
I'll be honest and tell you that I took one look at the 'officially
sponsored' editor and said "I'm not going to spend six months or a year in
this working environment just to be able to create an appropriate working
environment just so I can THEN begin work on an actual application - I'd
rather learn C++ with all that time since it's a given that I'll be able to
accomplish what I wish with it."
I think this is very unfortunate, since a simpler and versatile alternative
to the stringent and difficult languages would certainly be welcome by many,
I would think. Anything which teaches or shows about Euphoria is on the
Euphorian site ... and there's really nothing there. The language is easily
understandable and logicly simple enough, but, to tell the truth, I can't fi
gure out how to actually USE it! LOL call me an idiot, but the actual
Euphorian language is simple as pie and seems to have a short learning
curve, but I'm totally confounded as to what these xxx.e's are and .exw's
are and everything seems to open in DOS or DOS-editor environments and WILL
SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING IT'S THE 21ST CENTURY ALREADY!!!!
-Archetype aka Richard Skenderian
4. RE: Future of Euphoria
- Posted by dm31 at uow.edu.au
May 26, 2002
Thanks to those who replied.
Ray,
Be assured that I already have, and still are currently doing what
you suggest in your first point. The languages that I have learnt are
as follows:
GWBASIC
QBASIC
VB
TurboPascal
Delphi (ver 4)
Assembly (I used TASM)
Turing (A Canadian language that that isn’t that useful, but was the
first language I learnt)
SQL
HTML
Euphoria
In addition, I am doing a Maths\CompSc degree, which means that I am
learning JAVA and C++.
I’m not relying on Euphoria to provide me with my future income,
just trying to gauge if it is worth the time to continue with
Euphoria.
Igor,
Thanks for your reply; I understand where you are coming from.
Everett L. (Rett) Williams,
Your reply was taking in the good faith that it was intended. Yes,
I did Advanced English in High School, and have part of a University
Degree. I have be extremely lazy with my posts in that I do not read
what I have typed, and have rushed everything. Doing Tae Kwon Do,
being a goalkeeper for a Youth Grade soccer team, as well as doing a
combined degree has left me with very little time)
I will put more effort in the quality of my posts. Quoting from
‘Yogi’, “You observe a lot by watchingâ€.
J. Brown,
You have same good points in your reply.
Richard Skenderian,
I have to agree with some of the points that you have made.
Although LemonHeads is a nice game, (I played it myself) I must say
that the majority of development in Euphoria seems to be the
development of extra ‘features’ for Euphoria, not for the
‘outside world’ as such. Just to list some examples, take the
numerous IDE programs and Win32Lib. I not saying that these are bad
things, just that this is ALL that we seem to be doing. We have
Win32Lib, Exotica and Judith’s IDE, so we SHOULD be able to create
some outstanding games and software for the ‘outside world’.
Humbly yours,
Daniel McGrath
5. RE: Future of Euphoria
- Posted by dm31 at uow.edu.au
May 26, 2002
Sorry, I forgot to ask. Did anyone look at www.asynchrony.com
Dan
6. RE: Future of Euphoria
Well said Richard :)
Chris
archetype at synaptiq.com wrote:
> Hi, I'm new here, and would like to contribute what I know to the
> following
> subject:
>
> >Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 12:47:48 +0000
> >From: Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
> >Subject: RE: Future of Euphoria
> >...Point 2:
> >My view is ... if you want to make Euphoria more popular create
> >something that will impress other people. This can include ...
> >* Software of any kind, (games, business apps, utilities, libraries,
> >web apps).
> >* A Web page(s) - there are lots of things you can write about like:
> > 1. An in depth review of contributed software in the archive, screen
> >shots, instructions, comparisons with similiar software.
> > 2. Getting started guide.
> > 3. A tutorial on any area of programming ... a good one would be how
> >to use DLL's and shared libraries!
> > 4. How to write games...
> >Ray Smith
>
> To show a timely example of this timely point, consider that I emailed
> Euphoria's official email addy from the Eu site a couple days ago and
> received this reply (including my question at top):
> ************BEGIN EMAIL TRANSCRIPT*****************
> > Do you have a list of (notable) end-user stand-alone .exe progams which
> > might represent what has and can be done with Euphoria ?
>
> Impressive DOS Games:
> LemonHeads (5Mb)
> OidZone
>
> Go through the 900+ file Archive,
> http://www.rapideuphoria.com/archive.htm
>
> looking at the programs that have the highest
> "MicroEconomy" money - the little happy face symbol.
> Those are (by and large) the best programs (or libraries).
> To save space, some are not in .exe form, so you'll need to
> install Euphoria first to run them. With the registered version
> of Euphoria, you can make any program into a stand-alone .exe.
>
> Some games and finished programs didn't get much
> MicroEconomy money because, while impressive,
> they aren't particularly useful to the programmers who do the voting.
>
> Regards,
> Rob Craig
> **************END EMAIL TRANSCRIPT*****************
>
> I have to say that this doesn't quite cut the mustard, and, although I
> was
> very interested in Euphoria as a simpler alternative to the C+'s to
> learn
> (I have learned BASIC and LISP only), I'm not too convinced that it's
> worth
> my investment of time to learn if I wish to create professional
> applications.
>
> I cannot say that you'll succeed very well in attracting attention if
> you
> don't have anything to attract attention with; furthermore, having to
> d/l
> and install Euphoria just to see what it can do outside of Euphoria is
> mighty backwards in reasoning, not at all an impressive feat for a
> programming language, and even presumes Euphorian knowledge -YIKES!!!!
> Certainly having at least an excellent installer and editing environment
> (I
> point out a freeware HTML editor, "1st Page 2000" as comfortable ideal
> to be
> aspired to) would be a nice start.
>
> If you are concerned about Euphoria's future, you might want to take
> heed to
> what Mr. Rob Craig has pointed out. A quick suvey of the work done in
> Euphoria shows lots of programs about programming Euphoria, with,
> evidently,
> only two impressive DOS games to show for it all.
> (I mean no offense to the respective pogrammers, but DOS games are no
> longer
> considered impressive by the general public, nor by professional
> programmers.)
> You may have argument to this, but that's exactly as it appears to the
> outsider.
>
> I'll be honest and tell you that I took one look at the 'officially
> sponsored' editor and said "I'm not going to spend six months or a year
> in
> this working environment just to be able to create an appropriate
> working
> environment just so I can THEN begin work on an actual application - I'd
> rather learn C++ with all that time since it's a given that I'll be able
> to
> accomplish what I wish with it."
>
> I think this is very unfortunate, since a simpler and versatile
> alternative
> to the stringent and difficult languages would certainly be welcome by
> many,
> I would think. Anything which teaches or shows about Euphoria is on the
<snip>
7. RE: Future of Euphoria
Hi,
I'd like to respond to two points you made:
> > I cannot say that you'll succeed very well in attracting attention if
> > you
> > don't have anything to attract attention with; furthermore, having to
> > d/l
> > and install Euphoria just to see what it can do outside of Euphoria is
> > mighty backwards in reasoning, not at all an impressive feat for a
> > programming language, and even presumes Euphorian knowledge -YIKES!!!!
You are 100% correct. I did a quick look around the archive myself
and there is very little (almost zero) end user applications
available.
It would be a nice little project for someone to create a web page
that highlights "the best" Euphoria applications with links and/or
direct downloads.
If no one does it in I might add a page called "euGems" to my web
site.
Only applications/Games/whatever that a user can run without any
Euphoria knowledge should be used.
> > I'll be honest and tell you that I took one look at the 'officially
> > sponsored' editor and said "I'm not going to spend six months or a year
> > in
> > this working environment just to be able to create an appropriate
> > working
> > environment just so I can THEN begin work on an actual application - I'd
> > rather learn C++ with all that time since it's a given that I'll be able
> >
> > to
> > accomplish what I wish with it."
I have sent many emails about the editor/installer for Euphoria in
the past. As far as I'm aware the current Windows Installer is very
good. I'd be interested if you had any problems with that.
The editor has been problematic for along time.
The biggest problem/feature of Euphoria is that it is cross platform.
An "Official" Euphoria editor "should" work on all platforms.
Personally I think Windows/Linux would be enough ... but Windows alone
is not enough.
Since there are no "solid" cross platform GUI's available in Euphoria
it is near impossible to write a cross platform editor or IDE.
Which brings me to my major "wish" ... a cross platform GUI library!
> > I think this is very unfortunate, since a simpler and versatile
> > alternative
> > to the stringent and difficult languages would certainly be welcome by
> > many,
> > I would think. Anything which teaches or shows about Euphoria is on the
I can feel the frustration in your words ... and believe me I have
felt very frustrated myself with Euphoria in the past.
Euphoria seems like (and is) an amazing language that is missing a
few features which would skyrocket it's popularity.
And to make it even worse no one "seems" to care!
This isn't true of course ... but you can easily be mislead into
thinking it.
As I think Igor and Lucius said before ...
if you want to use Euphoria that's great ... we will be hear to
help ... if you don't then goodbye and good luck!
Euphoria is a community language meaning if you want something then
about the only way you will get it, is if you do it yourself.
If your interested in writing complex apps "quickly and easily" with
interfaces to things like web technologies and databases then Euphoria
probably isn't for you.
If you want to have fun programming ... Euphoria is definitely for you!
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
8. RE: Future of Euphoria
David Cuny wrote:
> Ray Smith wrote:
>
> > Since there are no "solid" cross platform GUI's available in
> > Euphoria it is near impossible to write a cross platform editor
> > or IDE. Which brings me to my major "wish" ... a cross platform
> > GUI library!
>
> I've made this point before: in my highly biased opinion, wxWindows is
> simply
> the best cross-platform library that's out there:
>
> http://www.wxwindows.org
>
> wxWindows runs under Windows, Linux, OS X, and even DOS. It even wraps
> Scite,
> a color-coding editor:
>
> http://www.scintilla.org
>
> This would make it simple to create a cross-platform editor for
> Euphoria.
>
> I know that wxWindows can be used in a C scripting language, since I've
> used
> it to write my own cross-platform interpreter, wxBasic:
>
> http://wxbasic.sourceforge.net
>
> which is (excepting for some C++ glue) written in plain old C.
>
> I made an attempt to write a version of "wxEuphoria", but ran into
> trouble
> getting the C++ compiler to handle the Euphoria source. But I'm not
> really a
> C/C++ wizard, and makefiles leave me baffled, so I ran into a brick wall
>
> pretty quickly.
>
> If someone is interested in creating wxEuphoria, I'd be glad to lend a
> hand.
>
> -- David Cuny
I've looked at wrapping wxWindows in the past but I suspect my C/C++
and makefile knowledge is far behind yours (I'm certain of this after
looking at wxBasic!).
I've looked at wrapping the FLTK cross platform toolkit and actually
got a fair bit of it working but it lacks much in the way of widgets. It
has no tree, grid or list view controls. Maybe I'll return here
if my other attempt doesn't work out ...
FLTK does have a simple "editor" control but I don't think it's worth
the effort to wrap a complete GUI library just to make an editor!
The FOX GUI cross platform toolkit was my last attempt and I managed
to create a very basic window and button in Euphoria but that's as far
as I progressed. FOX has a much broader array of Widgets, with trees,
grids, MDI etc and is an excellent toolkit. It has one benefit over
wxWindows as it sits directly on top of XWindows and is much smaller.
The big stumbling block in wrapping FOX is that it is "highly" object
oriented and I'm not sure how to wrap it correctly for Euphoria.
I have stayed away from wxWindows as I have been waiting (and hoping!)
that one day I'd read my email and see a message from Mr Cuny with
an announcement of his success in wrapping wxWindows!!!! :)
If anyone has any ideas on how to wrap OO libraries in Euphoria I'd
be very happy to hear them.
If anyone is interested I'll try and describe the problems that exist
in trying to wrap OO libraries.
Regards,
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
9. RE: Future of Euphoria
Just incase anyone is interested in the x platform GUI URL's:
FLTK can be found at:
http://www.fltk.org
FOX can be found at:
http://www.fox-toolkit.org/
fox screen shots at:
http://www.fox-toolkit.org/screenshots.html
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
10. RE: Future of Euphoria
-------Phoenix-Boundary-07081998-
Hi David Cuny, you wrote on 5/23/02 2:39:06 AM:
>I've also moved away from a number of the Euphoria philosophies.
>For example, passing by reference is not supported in
>Euphoria. Yet it's essential to much of the code that I write.
>So instead, I have to create a global to hold my
>sequences, and then pass the index into that global. That is, instead of:
>
> procedure foo( sequence s )
> s[Name] =3D "Foo"
> s[Age] =3D 32
> end procedure
>
>(which won't work), I'd end up writing something like:
>
> global sequence the
>
> procedure foo( index i )
> the[index][Name] =3D "Foo"
> the[index][Age] =3D 32
> end procedure
>
>Virtually all my programs would end up with some scheme like this to get
>around the pass by reference problem.
>
>And don't get me started on 'compare()'...
>
>Not being able to link into C libraries was also a pain. It forced many
>things to be 'reinvented' for Euphoria when a free C library with that
>functionality already existed.
>
>With the release of the source code, there's a different problem: I can't
>release an "improved" version of Euphoria without significant limitations.
>I
>understand the reasons for this, and I'm *very* happy that Robert chose to
>release the source code. But for me, it's just not worth the hassle.
>
I would just like to agree with this 100%. I spent much time on BLISS to
add pass-by-reference to Euphoria, but it doesn't really seem worth
the effort, and so has largely been abandoned. Euphoria remains an
excellent 'toy' language (no disparagement intended!), but lacks
features necessary for programming-in-the-large.
I keep thinking that whats necessary is a two-level language --
Euphoria-basic is simple, complete, fast and powerful
Euphoria-extended adds PBR, structures, strings, objects, etc.
Karl Bochert
-------Phoenix-Boundary-07081998---
11. RE: Future of Euphoria
Hi again,
First, my apologies for the length contained here-in.
Writing is a bad habit of mine. I really need to stop.
>From: Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
>Subject: RE: Future of Euphoria
>I did a quick look around the archive myself and there is very
>little (almost zero) end user applications...a nice little project ...
>Only applications/Games/whatever that a user can run without
>any Euphoria knowledge should be used.
Yes, this would be most excellent for people like me (see below for
description), and very likely others, too.
>As far as I'm aware the current Windows Installer is very
>good. I'd be interested if you had any problems with that.
The installer worked perfectly in Windows ME.
I apologize, as, by the term "installer", I actually was thinking about the
entire installation process. This would include documentation and anything
necessary to get the user up-and-running with the language as expediently as
possible.
I was unable to get Euphoria working such that I could work with the
language itself. I also mentioned that my familiarity with programming was
only BASIC and a derivitive of LISP - though I don't think I said it was
over 12 years ago. Both these languages were ready out-of-the-box per se,
and I was immediately able to work with the languages themselves.
It's embarrassingly frustrating, but different people do have their
individual strengths and weaknesses.
I have seen that it is true that all people have something unique and
valuable to offer; this, I think, is the very premise of open-source. There
is nothing wrong at all with catering to an individual's unique weaknesses
to be able to share in their unique strengths.
As such, it makes sense to have complete directions and instructions in the
simplest possible terms so even an idiot can get started; that 'idiot' might
be a programming genius. I'm adept at the English language, since I've
placed it in a logical contextual framework, but that doesn't mean a
superior programmer is. Someone might not have a tremendous intelligence,
but a great deal of tenacity, and so may accomplish something important
which no-one else will. Etc..
.
>I can feel the frustration in your words ... and believe me I have
>felt very frustrated myself with Euphoria in the past.
>Euphoria seems like (and is) an amazing language that is missing
>a few features which would skyrocket it's popularity.
>And to make it even worse no one "seems" to care!
>This isn't true of course ... but you can easily be mislead into
>thinking it.
It seems that everyone is frustrated with most everything in the
computer/technology world! It does seem, however, given a binary
fundemental placed into a fairly inert hexidecimal format, that higher-order
languages built on this should be able to do anything one wishes.
Oddly, I agree that Euphoria seems amazing, but I'm unable to express
exactly why I think this. What features are missing?
>As I think Igor and Lucius said before ...
>if you want to use Euphoria that's great ... we will be hear
>to help ... if you don't then goodbye and good luck!
Well, no-one can rightly argue with that, and shouldn't, as no-one's under
any obligation to help anyone.
The problem is that I don't know enough to know if I want to use Euphoria.
This may or may not be true for a lot of people as well. I can only suspect
that is is true.
If you don't want to help in this decision-making process, then that's a
different story all-together; I simply assume that the people who create the
language would want to educate others about it.
For any given unknown, x:
The statement:
"If you want to use x, great, we will help; if you don't, then goodbye!"
is really:
"if (x), then x, else if (not x), then y. end else. end if."
So, to Igor and Lucius et al; I understand your sentiment of non-obligation,
but am unable to process such statement as provided.
Debugging ... null set, (x); null set, (not x); undefined variable, x.
Certainly it's wonderful to have the very makers of the language willing to
help. Obviously you can't help everyone all the time, though, especially if
Euphoria becomes more popular - which is all the more reason to organize
things for new folk to Euphoria and individuals who are newer to
programming. Again, I would think that these people are valuable. Having
the resource of this community to offer assistance is a huge attraction.
>Euphoria is a community language meaning if you want something
>then about the only way you will get it, is if you do it yourself.
This confuses me; on one hand there has been expression to to be inclusive,
but here you are being exclusive. In which ways is Euphoria inclusive and
exclusive, communal and popular?
The only thing I expect is to be able to learn a language and be able to
write anything with it.
>If your interested in writing complex apps "quickly and easily" with
>interfaces to things like web technologies and databases then
>Euphoria probably isn't for you.
TTTT (To Tell The Truth), I don't know enough to know this. Further, I'm
unable to learn outside of contextual understanding, so I am unable to learn
things like HTML, and would be unable to do the things you've mentioned,
since they require learning by rote, which is incomprehensible to me. I
would have to write the database or web-technology in order to interface
with it. Generally; if I can't create or re-create it as a whole concept,
then I cannot understand or use it.
If Euphoria CAN do what other languages can do, and if it IS amazing and a
viable alternative, then I very well may want to undertake the *immense*
task of dedication to learning it. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who
learns a programming language to a fluent degree has undertaken a very large
project and has made a huge commitment of their time and resources.
Allowing people to know if they want to make this commitment to learning
Euphoria is only educational - and facilitative for everyone - and seems to
make complete sense.
As far as databases: I've been wanting to make my own 3-dimensional
inter-relational database engine for about 10 years. This project would be
my main project. This would take the end-result form of an open-matrix
inter-relational database engine which other programs, templates, and GUI's
could overlay upon. The current concept comes from an Alesis QS-8
synthesizer I have which uses an assignable-matrix engine to create
modulation programming. Though simple, it is extremely powerful. In fact,
it's so powerful, you don't need anything else for the purpose.
Is creating an open-matrix inter-relational database engine to drive other
programs possible with Euphoria?
I'm interested in Euphoria because of many things, including its
non-prescribed field-length feature, which is quite luxurious, and anything
else is merely to be tolerated by comparison.
Given the projects I would undertake, I know I'll always end up having to
work from scratch anyway.
In the end, I presume I need to generate binary hexidecimal or something
very basic such that a computer can understand it. (Is this what a compiler
does? Such is my knowledge.) If a higher-order language is flexible and
open-ended to allow me to do whatever I want - all the better, I would
think.
Is Euphoria able to do this?
>If you want to have fun programming ...
>Euphoria is definitely for you!
a) Programming = n%fun + m+m(p-n)%frustration +
q+q(q+n/q(m+m(p-n)))%undefinable.
where:
n = constant(zero)
m = inverse of known accomplishments
p = perceived monetary reward
q = perceived ego reward + (body temperature in Fahrenheit - hours per day
of free time)
Thanks again,
Archetype aka Richard Skenderian
12. RE: Future of Euphoria
--- Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au> wrote:
> If anyone has any ideas on how to wrap OO libraries in Euphoria I'd
> be very happy to hear them.
> If anyone is interested I'll try and describe the problems that exist
> in trying to wrap OO libraries.
I think I might have some ideas, since I think I've already done some of this.
COM stuff is basically the same as C++ (OO). What are the problems you've
found?
Matt Lewis
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
13. RE: Future of Euphoria
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: a.tammer at hetnet.nl [mailto:a.tammer at hetnet.nl]
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2002 20:25
> To: EUforum
> Subject: Re: Future of Euphoria
>
>
> For Derek : This shell_frame_work is
> meant to be my open and unlimited contrib to Eucom. Don't
> ever tell me again you don't like to be in my 'club' , 'cause
> you would tell me you don't like to be in EuCom, where both
> of us are equal members!!!
>
What on earth are you on about? What "club"? What did I actually say, as
opposed to what you think I might have said?
I am offended and angered by your attack on me, and quite frankly, I'll tell
you what ever I damn well please - OKAY! Where do you get off being the
arbiter of free speech?
And what's this about "equal members". Are you implying that some people
subscribed to this forum are more equal that others? If so, that is
preposterous.
Do you, by any chance, happen to know Mike the Spike? The similarities are
starting be amazing. That person is also from NL, though your spelling is
better.
Coincidently, I'm working on a project for a Dutch bank at the moment -
ain't it a small world.
Your "shell_frame_work" will be just as welcome as every other contribution
to the Euphoria community. Sharing one's endeavours and findings is a 'good
thing' in my opinion. Everyone can benefit from open sharing. 'Closed'
sharing tends to benefit some more than others. It is all relative, of
course, and my opinion is just that - an opinion and not necessarily fact.
------------
Derek.
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14. RE: Future of Euphoria
>I am offended and angered by your attack on me, and quite=
frankly,
>I'll tell you what ever I damn well please - OKAY! Where do you=
get off being
>the arbiter of free speech?
Whoa! I think this is the first time I have seen Derek lose his=
cool. I leave here for a few months, come back, and all heck has=
broken lose.
Derek do not let this guy get you worked up, obviously that is=
his intention and you are bigger than that. If you ask me he is=
playing with a 3 card deck, and one of those cards is a joker.
Antoine I personally think your comments to Derek and the forum=
was uncalled for. If you have a personal disagreement with=
someone, then maybe you should resolve your indifferences in=
private.
Chris
15. RE: Future of Euphoria
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher B [mailto:president at insight-concepts.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2002 10:23
> To: EUforum
> Subject: RE: Future of Euphoria
>
>
>
> Whoa! I think this is the first time I have seen Derek lose
> his cool.
Thanks Chris. I've obviously been sucked in. I've gotta stop working long
hours 
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16. RE: Future of Euphoria
Hey, what ever happened to the Spike? Haven't heard his ranting around
here for a while.
I would agree with Chris here, Derek. Not worth your time.
Everyone, let's remember that Derek is working on win32lib basically for
free. Yeah, I know there's micro economy money but you can only buy so
many registered copies of Euphoria. :)
BTW, there will be no animosity or harsh words at EuCon...it just won't
be tolerated. Still taking votes on exact location of EuCon. Derek
never responded to my question about us all staying at his house...but
can you blame him?
I might not be posting here too much in the future. I'm thinking about
becoming a plumber. You know you can get $125USD for going to someone's
house on a holiday for 1/2 hour and clearing their sewer line? Ask me
how I know...
Derek, keep up the GREAT work!
J
Derek Parnell wrote:
> Do you, by any chance, happen to know Mike the Spike? The similarities
> are
> starting be amazing. That person is also from NL, though your spelling
> is
> better.
17. RE: Future of Euphoria
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonas Temple [mailto:jktemple at yhti.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 29 May 2002 12:12
> To: EUforum
> Subject: RE: Future of Euphoria
>
>
>
> Derek
> never responded to my question about us all staying at his
> house...but can you blame him?
That was a joke, right? Please? I'm still in favour of Thailand,
Taihei or the Maldives.
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18. RE: Future of Euphoria
- Posted by a.tammer at hetnet.nl
May 28, 2002
Hi Derek,
You mentioned the word club yourself as first one in a mail to me=
Derek, Sorry to have to tell you.
Remember the item where I asked people to listen to the why on my=
rash decision to leave EuCom?,
remember your own answer where you told me, that you didn't like=
to be in my 'club' . The tone of it
didn't sound too well in my ears to put it very mildly. Then I=
did an IOU to all who would listen. If Rob took
it off the forum after 2 days, as I requested, I'll be happy=
enough to provide it to you, because you're
among the people I really value, both of us seem to be somewhat=
short-fused alas.
Antoine
19. RE: Future of Euphoria
Derek,
Yes, it was definitely a joke!
The Thailand option sounds good...but I'm ashamed to admit I can't place
Taihei or Maldives. This is probably an indication that I slept through
most of geography.
Jonas
Derek Parnell wrote:
> That was a joke, right? Please? I'm still in favour of Thailand,
> Taihei or the Maldives.
