1. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
Juergen Luethje wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
> > You have obviously not been in the chat room..
> > It is extremely beneficial.
>
> [...]
>
> > We are also in the initial phase of establishing a coders organization,
> > to help with standardizations, and upping the quality and of the
> > contributions, and hopefully the language in general.
>
> That sounds important, so why not doing it here, in the "main"
> community?
>
Eventually, it will be, but like I said earlier, not much actually gets
done through here. At least not in terms of collaborative efforts. Once
it's established, and well organized, and we've worked out the kinks.
Everyone will be invited to participate.
Also, because collaboration within the mailing community is minimal, and
the whole reason people are in the mailing list and not in the chatroom,
is because they don't have time, which also means they don't have time
to devote to a cooperative project.
Besides, it's been tried, and failed.
> > Things are actually _happening_ in there, instead of just thinking up
> > ways for other people to make euphoria the invincible wonder language,
> > and then passing the buck.
> >
> > No attack on anyone intended, but that's the way it is. I've been a part
> > of this mailing list for over 3 years, and I see the same thing happen
> > all the time. We bitch, we come up with a plan, and that's the end of
> > it. And I'm no different. We all wanna have our say, but we're all to
> > busy to do anything about it, or else "it's Robert Craig's problem".
>
> I don't understand what this has got to do with the medium chatting vs.
> mailing.
There was no versus.
Chatting and mailing are two completely different, independent mediums.
I was not inferring that the mailing is not as useful as the
chatroom, but that the chatroom _does_ have relevance.
Mostly, I'm just sick of seeing the same bickering, and nothing come of
it. This current EuForum fiasco "What we need" has been going on for
years, and has not changed one bit. I'm just as guilty as everyone else,
but I sought out the chatroom, so that I might actually be able to DO
something about it, instead of just talking about it.
Took the EuForum at least 3 years to bicker about not having a chatroom,
before someone finally got fed up.
Both are useful, and is why I'm am a part of both. The mailing list is
good for getting mass opinions, and for a knowledge database.
The chatroom is good for realtime help, and for peer interaction.
The fact that the mailing list is docile, is nothing unusual, it's a
characteristic of the community style.
The mailing list is abstracted interaction, not to mention an extremely
drawn out, tedious process of communication, _especially_ when
considering trying to coordinate a group project.
The chatroom is immersed interaction, meaning, I can tell you, "it
doesn't work", then you can say "well, why not, what error did it give
you!? what line number? how am I supposed to know what the problem is,
if you don't give me any specifics?", I say "oh duh! :P XXX error, on
line blah".
3 lines of communication...
a potential week of emailing.
a few minutes in the chatroom.
(ya, you laff at my example :). but it happens all the time!)
There is also the benefit of realtime previewing of code in progress.
I can be working on a project, and show off a chunk to someone, and
often, others will spout out a better way.
Not only do I get the better method, but I also get a detailed
explanation of why it's better, and if I still don't understand, the
person is right there, and can fully explain it to me. In the duration
of this process, I'm not wasting days, figuring out why I should change
my code, or how to adapt to the new code.
Information exchange is tenfold, if not more.
Again, I never said EuForum is not good. It's just not suitable for much
more than a general msg board, with the added benefit that you can have
the msg's delivered, instead of having to view them online.
EuForum is a resource, the chatroom is a tool.
Anyways, excuse my ranting... :/
Everyone also needs to understand that the difference is also
preference. Most people can't participate in a chatroom on a regular
basis, others can't communicate well through turn based msg'ing.
For myself, I am lucky enough to have the freedom to be in the chatroom
during work, so I am generally there most of the day. I've learned more
about EU, and coding in general, not to mention all kinds of other
aspects of computer tech, since March, than I have in the entire 3 years
I've been using EU and participating in the mailing list.
Chris
2. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
> The fact that the mailing list is docile, is nothing unusual, it's a
> characteristic of the community style.
As a prime example of what I'm talking about. How many of you replied to
the "Popularity Contest"? How many of you are gonna sit there on yer
tush and say "yeah, what a great idea", and how many of you are gonna
actually get out of yer chair, and stand up for what you want!?
This idea is NOT a new idea. I've proposed it before, a _few_ times
already. There is no reason we can't do it, except for the fact that
either:
A:// people are too lazy to care
B:// due to the nature of the mailing list, we can't collaborate well
enough to decide on anything
C:// people simply _don't_ care
I think I saw a total of 3 or 4 replies, and none of them offered their
donations, only 'better' ideas. It doesn't matter how good the idea is,
if that's all it will ever be.
Prove me wrong.
Chris
3. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
On 14 Nov 2002, at 9:46, Chris Bensler wrote:
>
> > The fact that the mailing list is docile, is nothing unusual, it's a
> > characteristic of the community style.
>
> As a prime example of what I'm talking about. How many of you replied to
> the "Popularity Contest"? How many of you are gonna sit there on yer
> tush and say "yeah, what a great idea", and how many of you are gonna
> actually get out of yer chair, and stand up for what you want!?
>
> This idea is NOT a new idea. I've proposed it before, a _few_ times
> already. There is no reason we can't do it, except for the fact that
> either:
> A:// people are too lazy to care
> B:// due to the nature of the mailing list, we can't collaborate well
> enough to decide on anything
> C:// people simply _don't_ care
>
> I think I saw a total of 3 or 4 replies, and none of them offered their
> donations, only 'better' ideas. It doesn't matter how good the idea is,
> if that's all it will ever be.
Donations? of code? of ideas?
D:// people figure the idea will be shot down so why bother?
Kat
4. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
Any response is better than no response.
How is anyone supposed to know if there is anything good (or bad)to be
had, if nobody pipes up, in either direction.
The lack of response, for whatever reason, is also a docile approach,
and produces the same effect.
Chris
Derek Parnell wrote:
> Or I didn't think much of the idea to get excited about it, so I decided
> to
> keep quiet and let those who it did interest discuss it. Sheeesh!
>
> ----------------
> cheers,
> Derek Parnell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Bensler" <bensler at mail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 8:46 PM
> Subject: RE: New Euphoria Users Website
>
>
> >
> > > The fact that the mailing list is docile, is nothing unusual, it's a
> > > characteristic of the community style.
> >
> > As a prime example of what I'm talking about. How many of you replied to
> > the "Popularity Contest"? How many of you are gonna sit there on yer
> > tush and say "yeah, what a great idea", and how many of you are gonna
> > actually get out of yer chair, and stand up for what you want!?
> >
> > This idea is NOT a new idea. I've proposed it before, a _few_ times
> > already. There is no reason we can't do it, except for the fact that
> > either:
> > A:// people are too lazy to care
> > B:// due to the nature of the mailing list, we can't collaborate well
> > enough to decide on anything
> > C:// people simply _don't_ care
> >
> > I think I saw a total of 3 or 4 replies, and none of them offered their
> > donations, only 'better' ideas. It doesn't matter how good the idea is,
> > if that's all it will ever be.
> >
> >
> > Prove me wrong.
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
5. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
Chris Bensler wrote:
> > The fact that the mailing list is docile, is nothing unusual, it's a
> > characteristic of the community style.
>
> As a prime example of what I'm talking about. How many of you replied to
>
> the "Popularity Contest"? How many of you are gonna sit there on yer
> tush and say "yeah, what a great idea", and how many of you are gonna
> actually get out of yer chair, and stand up for what you want!?
>
> This idea is NOT a new idea. I've proposed it before, a _few_ times
> already. There is no reason we can't do it, except for the fact that
> either:
> A:// people are too lazy to care
> B:// due to the nature of the mailing list, we can't collaborate well
> enough to decide on anything
> C:// people simply _don't_ care
>
> I think I saw a total of 3 or 4 replies, and none of them offered their
> donations, only 'better' ideas. It doesn't matter how good the idea is,
> if that's all it will ever be.
>
>
> Prove me wrong.
>
>
Chris:
We are on this list because YOU wanted to move to this list !
Here is an excerpt from and old post that I qoute.
-------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:53:13 -0500
From: Robert Craig <rds at RAPIDEUPHORIA.COM>
Organization: Rapid Deployment Software
Subject: Moving The List
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Chris Bensler set up a mailing list called EUforum
at topica.com and he invited me to check it out.
Over the past several days, I've tested all the features
and it looks very good. It has an archive with searching,
a Web interface for posting or viewing messages,
plus the usual immediate, or digested e-mail distribution
and posting. It has everything that this list has.
-------------------------------------------------------
What was the point of moving to this list ? You argued that
it would improve the list at that time and now you want to
create another list.
Not every user is interested in everything that you are
interested in. You seem to think that you are the only person
on the list who has correct method of doing things and the
other users can't collaborate well enough to decide on anything.
Some of your code is same type of code that was used in libraries
that I and many users wrote 3 years ago, so what is so new about
your contributions ?
Fragmenting the list is not helping Euphoria or any user on
this list.
Bernie
6. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
First of all, did you notice that in your excerpt, Robert Craig said I
'invited' him? I am by no meas any kind of authority, nor do I choose
to be. To infer that Robert Craig was overly swayed by _my_ complaining,
doews not say much about him. i'd like to think that he is quite a bit
more intelligent than that.
The choice to move to Topica was not mine. Granted it was my suggestion,
but after all the bickering about moderation, and the flame wars that
couldn't be stopped.. things needed to be done.
I took time out of my schedule to find a better solution, did YOU?
Just because I offer something, that does not mean that is the 'LAW'.
(BTW, FYI, the population of the EU mailing list jumped almost %50
within a 1/2 year of moving to Topica.)
BUT it sure would be NICE if people at least responded. In whatever
form. It's bad enough I have to wait sometimes more than 2 weeks to get
a reply to a common question( or at least to peice together the info
I've gotten from the mailing list). It really sucks, when you are trying
to do something for the benefit of everybody, and noone can even take
the time to say, nah.. Instead, I have to wait 2 or 3 weeks before
realizing that noone cares.
Noone is fragmenting anything..
Whatever offshoots of the EuForum community there are, have little to do
with me. If you are talking about the chatroom in general, it is not an
alternative for the mailing list, it is a supplemental tool.
And I didn't say that people had to agree with what I say. If that was
the case, there wouldn't be much point in saying it, would there?
I could really care less if other people get free stuff from RDS.
I know that more than half of the mailing list, are not registered
owners of EU, so I can understand them feeling "out of place" to comment
on an idea like the "Popularity Contest".
But there are more than enough registered users, and I'm SURE, that
more than half of us don't even use our RD$ donations. Myself included,
which is what prompted the idea in the first place.
So what's the big deal? Who cares if the idea IS a bust? Are we gonna be
hurt for trying? At least if we TRY, we have a chance of success.
In any event, it seems pretty ironic that we all want Robert Craig to do
something about the language, but not many of us have attempted to take
any initiative.
Yes, I know that time is a factor. but there are still things we can do,
instead of just inventing ideas, and then throwing them away.
Chris
Bernie Ryan wrote:
>
> Chris Bensler wrote:
> > > The fact that the mailing list is docile, is nothing unusual, it's a
> > > characteristic of the community style.
> >
> > As a prime example of what I'm talking about. How many of you replied to
> >
> >
> > the "Popularity Contest"? How many of you are gonna sit there on yer
> > tush and say "yeah, what a great idea", and how many of you are gonna
> > actually get out of yer chair, and stand up for what you want!?
> >
> > This idea is NOT a new idea. I've proposed it before, a _few_ times
> > already. There is no reason we can't do it, except for the fact that
> > either:
> > A:// people are too lazy to care
> > B:// due to the nature of the mailing list, we can't collaborate well
> > enough to decide on anything
> > C:// people simply _don't_ care
> >
> > I think I saw a total of 3 or 4 replies, and none of them offered their
> > donations, only 'better' ideas. It doesn't matter how good the idea is,
> > if that's all it will ever be.
> >
> >
> > Prove me wrong.
> >
> >
>
> Chris:
>
> We are on this list because YOU wanted to move to this list !
> Here is an excerpt from and old post that I qoute.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:53:13 -0500
> From: Robert Craig <rds at RAPIDEUPHORIA.COM>
> Organization: Rapid Deployment Software
> Subject: Moving The List
> To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
>
> Chris Bensler set up a mailing list called EUforum
> at topica.com and he invited me to check it out.
> Over the past several days, I've tested all the features
> and it looks very good. It has an archive with searching,
> a Web interface for posting or viewing messages,
> plus the usual immediate, or digested e-mail distribution
> and posting. It has everything that this list has.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> What was the point of moving to this list ? You argued that
> it would improve the list at that time and now you want to
> create another list.
> Not every user is interested in everything that you are
> interested in. You seem to think that you are the only person
> on the list who has correct method of doing things and the
> other users can't collaborate well enough to decide on anything.
> Some of your code is same type of code that was used in libraries
> that I and many users wrote 3 years ago, so what is so new about
> your contributions ?
>
> Fragmenting the list is not helping Euphoria or any user on
> this list.
>
> Bernie
>
>
>
7. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
Personally I like the language and community the way they are. IMHO, if
Robert felt threatened by the competition enough to be afraid of his
business failing, I expect he would take whatever initiative necessary
to increase the size of the community. No programmer worth their mettle
is going to say that Euphoria is the perfect language for every task.
We all know its shortcomings, as much as we all know its strengths.
Based on the comments, or lack thereof, from RDS, I must conclude that
Robert is satisfied with the business as it stands and is not in any
hurry to inspire an explosive growth in the user base. I'm inclined to
agree. If or when that changes, I'll be the first to jump on board.
Michael J. Sabal
>>> bensler at mail.com 11/14/02 12:42PM >>>
In any event, it seems pretty ironic that we all want Robert Craig to
do
something about the language, but not many of us have attempted to take
any initiative.
Chris
8. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at mail.com>
Nov 14, 2002
-
Last edited Nov 15, 2002
I understand your perspective Michael, and it's not often I have seen
you jump on the bandwagon in terms of the periodic rants that happen.
But regardless of that fact, not everyone agrees, and is why we end up
with these spuradic outbursts of brainstorming. People wanting to make
something better out of euphoria.
I personally, would rather not see any ranting, but instead see people
committing to acheive the goals themselves. Obviously this is up to the
indiviudal to decide.
The entire stem of this discussion is the fact that I for one, am one of
those, who do want to see Euphoria live up to it's potential. Simply
put, I realized quite a while back, that the chatroom is more
productive. In terms of code output, and general enthusiasm for the
language. This is MY cup of tea, maybe not yours, which is why we have
BOTH a mailing list, AND a chatroom, not either/or.
By having the chatroom, I have a place to vent myself, without causing
(all this) contention. This entire discussion would be a matter of 15
minutes to 1 hour in the chatroom. Instead of 2 days.
Not to mention, I would get my point across, without being miscontrued,
and getting into heated arguments.
Some of us are not satisfied to sit by and watch such a great language
fall further and further behind the rest of the programming world.
If I sold you a bicylce, with one wheel, and you didn't complain. The
next time you came in, do you think you would get a bike with 2 wheels,
if I still have that one-wheeled bike? You better bet yer booty that yer
gonna be stuck with that same unicycle again. I'll save the proper
equipment for those who are going to complain, and make my life
otherwise difficult. What motivation does Robert Craig have, to improve
EU, if noone ever complains?
Do you think Bill gates will ever take the initiative to make MS Windows
compatible with linux, and other OS's?
He MAY be considering it now, or in the future, because of the growing
popularity of non-mainstream OS's. The development of these other
systems, for the most part, is directly relevent to the rebellion
against MonopolySoft.
Chris
Sabal.Mike at notations.com wrote:
> Personally I like the language and community the way they are. IMHO, if
> Robert felt threatened by the competition enough to be afraid of his
> business failing, I expect he would take whatever initiative necessary
> to increase the size of the community. No programmer worth their mettle
> is going to say that Euphoria is the perfect language for every task.
> We all know its shortcomings, as much as we all know its strengths.
> Based on the comments, or lack thereof, from RDS, I must conclude that
> Robert is satisfied with the business as it stands and is not in any
> hurry to inspire an explosive growth in the user base. I'm inclined to
> agree. If or when that changes, I'll be the first to jump on board.
>
> Michael J. Sabal
>
> >>> bensler at mail.com 11/14/02 12:42PM >>>
> In any event, it seems pretty ironic that we all want Robert Craig to
> do
> something about the language, but not many of us have attempted to take
>
> any initiative.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
9. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
Nov 14, 2002
-
Last edited Nov 15, 2002
Kat wrote:
> Somewhat larger, even 2megs, isn't "bloated" compared with Visual Basic.
>
> We accept more features will make the interpreter larger, but like i
> said, how
> many new computer users can fit anything they do onto a floppy, so how
> likely are they to consider "floppy" a form factor for a whole computer
> programming language?! Last time i looked at new pre-built computers, i
> could get hotswap-HD/ZIP/DVD/CD drives as standard items, but a floppy
> was special option.
you made your comments basically the same time I made mine :)
see the "past present and future of Euphoria" message I just posted
for I more in depth discussion.
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
10. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
Nov 14, 2002
-
Last edited Nov 15, 2002
Chris Bensler wrote:
> > The fact that the mailing list is docile, is nothing unusual, it's a
> > characteristic of the community style.
>
> As a prime example of what I'm talking about. How many of you replied to
>
> the "Popularity Contest"? How many of you are gonna sit there on yer
> tush and say "yeah, what a great idea", and how many of you are gonna
> actually get out of yer chair, and stand up for what you want!?
[snip]
The eu community is as good as it is bad.
I don't know the details but from a guess I'd say that there are about
25 regular contributers to the mailing list.
People quoting 200, 300 or 400 subscribers are missing the point,
only about 25 people actually use it (post to it - or contribute!).
I encourage Chris to continue his approach at drumming up support
for furthuring Euphoria (I think he said something like "it's better
to try and loose than not try at all" ... not an exact quote but
similiar, I agree with him)
Many others have tried and failed ... and many have moved on to
other languages because of the lack of enthusiasm from other users.
Many are happy with what Euphoria is ... and don't see a need for
change. That's great.
But as I said way back when these threads started ...
if Euphoria isn't what you want now, and you personally can't change
it the way you want it. Then most likely it won't happen.
... so everyone is free to make their own choices.
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
11. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
On 14 Nov 2002, at 19:46, Chris Bensler wrote:
<snip>
> The entire stem of this discussion is the fact that I for one, am one of
> those, who do want to see Euphoria live up to it's potential. Simply
> put, I realized quite a while back, that the chatroom is more
> productive. In terms of code output, and general enthusiasm for the
> language. This is MY cup of tea, maybe not yours, which is why we have
> BOTH a mailing list, AND a chatroom, not either/or.
<snip>
> Some of us are not satisfied to sit by and watch such a great language
> fall further and further behind the rest of the programming world.
>
> If I sold you a bicylce, with one wheel, and you didn't complain. The
> next time you came in, do you think you would get a bike with 2 wheels,
> if I still have that one-wheeled bike? You better bet yer booty that yer
> gonna be stuck with that same unicycle again. I'll save the proper
> equipment for those who are going to complain, and make my life
> otherwise difficult. What motivation does Robert Craig have, to improve
> EU, if noone ever complains?
But what can those of us do who want to push Eu into the 21st century?
Drop Eu and go exclusively to Bach, yet submit the applications to the
contribs pages as Eu programs? Each write our own interpreter and leave
Eu?
Kat
> Do you think Bill gates will ever take the initiative to make MS Windows
> compatible with linux, and other OS's?
> He MAY be considering it now, or in the future, because of the growing
> popularity of non-mainstream OS's. The development of these other
> systems, for the most part, is directly relevent to the rebellion
> against MonopolySoft.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> Sabal.Mike at notations.com wrote:
> > Personally I like the language and community the way they are. IMHO, if
> > Robert felt threatened by the competition enough to be afraid of his
> > business failing, I expect he would take whatever initiative necessary
> > to increase the size of the community. No programmer worth their mettle
> > is going to say that Euphoria is the perfect language for every task.
> > We all know its shortcomings, as much as we all know its strengths.
> > Based on the comments, or lack thereof, from RDS, I must conclude that
> > Robert is satisfied with the business as it stands and is not in any
> > hurry to inspire an explosive growth in the user base. I'm inclined to
> > agree. If or when that changes, I'll be the first to jump on board.
> >
> > Michael J. Sabal
> >
> > >>> bensler at mail.com 11/14/02 12:42PM >>>
> > In any event, it seems pretty ironic that we all want Robert Craig to
> > do
> > something about the language, but not many of us have attempted to take
> >
> > any initiative.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
>
>
12. RE: New Euphoria Users Website
My proxy at office would not let me connect to any sort of chat room,
and I can't bypass it because I'm on a local network. And I've no
Internet connection at home; when I buy a new computer this wil
hopefully change.
I don't know if many people there are in the same sort of situation. If
so, the chat room could even unexpectedly turn out to be harmful to Eu
community, because it splits it.
CChris
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:33:18 +0000
> From: Chris Bensler <bensler at mail.com>
> Subject: RE: New Euphoria Users Website (Was Re: Re: What we really need...)
>
> You have obviously not been in the chat room..
> It is extremely beneficial.
>
> And is the only place where I have ever been able to _realistically_
> collaborate on anything.
>
> heaps.e, clib.e, structs.e, tcp.e, sharedmem.e, Simple RichEdit, Insert
> Bitmaps, Bass, BassMod, HawkNL, Rich Editor, stack.e
>
> ..and lots of others that I can't think of...
> ... are _all_ _direct_ products of the chatroom
>
> Even the fore-mentioned contribs pale in comparison to some of the
> things that are _actually_ going on in there.
>
> Most of these were extensively tested before ever reaching the general
> EU community, and through ease of realtime communication, were able to
> voice even insignificant opinions about any given project, instantly,
> and have it fixed, instantly, and have it updated, practically
> instantly.
>
> There are also some *big* projects in the works in there. They haven't
> been released, so it's not my place to name anything.
>
> I currently use a whole suite of libraries, as my standard programming
> set, all developed through cooperatives efforts, made possible through
> the chatroom. Including an extensive, stable, win32 API thin-wrapper set
> that I haven't had to modify once since July.
>
> We are also in the initial phase of establishing a coders organization,
> to help with standardizations, and upping the quality and of the
> contributions, and hopefully the language in general.
>
> Things are actually _happening_ in there, instead of just thinking up
> ways for other people to make euphoria the invincible wonder language,
> and then passing the buck.
>
> No attack on anyone intended, but that's the way it is. I've been a part
> of this mailing list for over 3 years, and I see the same thing happen
> all the time. We bitch, we come up with a plan, and that's the end of
> it. And I'm no different. We all wanna have our say, but we're all to
> busy to do anything about it, or else "it's Robert Craig's problem".
>
> I for one actually _do_ want to see euphoria succeed, and the chatroom
> was the very first step.
> We have an average count of 12 users, the majority of the time, and
> there are different people everyday. Of the regular visitors, we have
> _all_ collaborated on projects, and ARE collaborating on projects.
>
> It would be nice to see quite a bit more, but hey, in comparison to the
> size of active eu community, I think that's pretty good. I'd like to see
> %5-10, instead of just %3 though.
>
> Chris
>
> C. K. Lester wrote:
> > > > > How about EuForge ?
> > > >
> > > > Can we all have our own directories? Run our own programs? etc...?
> > >
> > > I don't know, it's not mine. Remember, when i registered the #euphoria
> > > channel (twice!!) no one came to it, so i was d$%med if i was going to
> > > register a domain, i'd have run everyone off of it just by owning it!
> >
> > Obviously a chat room is far less needed right now than a full-blown
> > EUPHORIA developer's web site (of course, with newbie and expert
> > sections).
> > You have to have users in the tens of thousands across the globe before
> > a
> > chat room would become worthwhile.
> >
> >
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>
