1. Black Plague + Eu concerns
Hello there,
I ended up getting a flu of sorts which im now calling the Black Plague
because it's so nasty :)
In the down time, i've been thinking about Pete Lomax's solution to
'allocate_string' and memory management using Euphoria, but now im
reading about something that sounds rather alarming here on the forum...
That is, MS's new "Vista" (previously "Longhorn"). This sounds like
something that could take our code we now have (in Euphoria) and turn
it into a pile of useless garbage. On the other hand, if this was
treated just like a new 'Platform' perhaps Rob could come up with
a new Euphoria for that platform too? Did anyone ask him yet?
I know it might take a while for MS's new takeover, but i find they
are relentless when it comes to marketing and this new system is
a big trick to grab and keep more of the market as usual. I dont think
it can be stopped, and Linux dev is too slow to keep up, but if Rob
can begin to support the new 'platform' perhaps this would help?
So i repeat: did anyone ask Rob about support for Vista yet?
Take care,
Al
And, good luck with your Euphoria programming!
My bumper sticker: "I brake for LED's"
2. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Al Getz wrote:
>
> Hello there,
>
> I ended up getting a flu of sorts which im now calling the Black Plague
> because it's so nasty :)
>
> In the down time, i've been thinking about Pete Lomax's solution to
> 'allocate_string' and memory management using Euphoria, but now im
> reading about something that sounds rather alarming here on the forum...
> That is, MS's new "Vista" (previously "Longhorn"). This sounds like
> something that could take our code we now have (in Euphoria) and turn
> it into a pile of useless garbage. On the other hand, if this was
> treated just like a new 'Platform' perhaps Rob could come up with
> a new Euphoria for that platform too? Did anyone ask him yet?
>
> I know it might take a while for MS's new takeover, but i find they
> are relentless when it comes to marketing and this new system is
> a big trick to grab and keep more of the market as usual. I dont think
> it can be stopped, and Linux dev is too slow to keep up, but if Rob
> can begin to support the new 'platform' perhaps this would help?
> So i repeat: did anyone ask Rob about support for Vista yet?
>
>
> Take care,
> Al
>
> And, good luck with your Euphoria programming!
>
> My bumper sticker: "I brake for LED's"
>
I think you are overly concerned... If you think about it, programs using .NET
are referred to as "managed code" because it runs in it's own protected memory
'sandbox'. But if you think about it, we've been running our own kind of
"managed code" in Euphoria for years.
At least that's how I see it. Am I missing something besides the bloated IDE's
and runtimes?
Anyway, there are far too many 3rd party apps out there that MS works hard to
maintain compatibility for. As a result, Euphoria will continue to be easily
maintained and supported. If not, MS wouldn't have much of a future and they
know it.
It took supporting 64 bits for MS to finally rid itself of 16-bit stuff...
-- Brian
3. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Al Getz wrote:
>
> Hello there,
>
> I ended up getting a flu of sorts which im now calling the Black Plague
> because it's so nasty :)
>
> In the down time, i've been thinking about Pete Lomax's solution to
> 'allocate_string' and memory management using Euphoria, but now im
> reading about something that sounds rather alarming here on the forum...
> That is, MS's new "Vista" (previously "Longhorn"). This sounds like
> something that could take our code we now have (in Euphoria) and turn
> it into a pile of useless garbage. On the other hand, if this was
> treated just like a new 'Platform' perhaps Rob could come up with
> a new Euphoria for that platform too? Did anyone ask him yet?
>
> I know it might take a while for MS's new takeover, but i find they
> are relentless when it comes to marketing and this new system is
> a big trick to grab and keep more of the market as usual. I dont think
> it can be stopped, and Linux dev is too slow to keep up, but if Rob
> can begin to support the new 'platform' perhaps this would help?
> So i repeat: did anyone ask Rob about support for Vista yet?
>
>
> Take care,
> Al
>
> And, good luck with your Euphoria programming!
>
> My bumper sticker: "I brake for LED's"
>
Hello Al ,
I'm sorry to here about your virus problem (joke) I know some of those flues can
be real nasty. I had one that literally knocked me out for 2 weeks awhile
back.
Now I get that flu shot every year.
Anyway, glad to hear you're back to keep up the good work.
Don Cole,
SF
4. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Al Getz wrote:
...
> I know it might take a while for MS's new takeover, but i find they
> are relentless when it comes to marketing and this new system is
> a big trick to grab and keep more of the market as usual. I dont think
> it can be stopped, and Linux dev is too slow to keep up, but if Rob
> can begin to support the new 'platform' perhaps this would help?
> So i repeat: did anyone ask Rob about support for Vista yet?
Sort of early to talk about support. Microsoft has already dropped
many of the promised features of Longhorn, if the beta is any indication.
IOW, their marketing droids may have promised more than their programmers
can deliver. Not because they aren't good programmers - that remains to be
seen - but because common sense gets in the way.
Think about this logically - Longhorn Vista (the view a bull sees)
is going to be installed on new computers. If it won't run legacy apps,
then people are going to be very upset. Instead of spending $thousands
to upgrade those apps (which would probably come with new bugs), it
will be *much* more tempting to just buy your new computer *without*
an OS, and figure out how to install your old OS. More people learning
how to crack XP's install is not what Microsoft wants.
Or worse, from Mr. Gates' point of view, they might be tempted to switch
to Mac or even Linux. I can imagine some high-end software companies
actually encouraging their customers to switch:
"Well, it may take months to convert our program to run with Vista,
but we can upgrade you to our Mac version for only $?.99 today."
No doubt somebody at Microsoft has figured this out already, so I think
there'll be full support for legacy stuff.
One of the big excuses people use for not switching to a safer OS such
as Linux is the 'retraining' problem. Microsoft does not want to make
this argument moot. So don't expect any dramatic changes. Maybe some
eye candy, and a few useful features borrowed from other OS's, like
tabbed browsing and transparent windows.
As for Linux development, I don't know why you think it's slow. Most of
the neat new features in IE7 *already exist* in Linux browsers, like Firefox.
And, unlike Windows bugs, Linux bugs get fixed quickly.
5. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Al Getz wrote:
> In the down time, i've been thinking about Pete Lomax's solution to
> 'allocate_string' and memory management using Euphoria, but now im
> reading about something that sounds rather alarming here on the forum...
> That is, MS's new "Vista" (previously "Longhorn"). This sounds like
> something that could take our code we now have (in Euphoria) and turn
> it into a pile of useless garbage. On the other hand, if this was
> treated just like a new 'Platform' perhaps Rob could come up with
> a new Euphoria for that platform too? Did anyone ask him yet?
>
> I know it might take a while for MS's new takeover, but i find they
> are relentless when it comes to marketing and this new system is
> a big trick to grab and keep more of the market as usual. I dont think
> it can be stopped, and Linux dev is too slow to keep up, but if Rob
> can begin to support the new 'platform' perhaps this would help?
> So i repeat: did anyone ask Rob about support for Vista yet?
Don't worry. As long as there's a C/C++ for Longhorn/Vista,
there will be a Euphoria too.
Judging by all previous Microsoft Windows upgrades,
I think you can assume:
- it will be delivered late
- it will prove to be more "hype" than substance
- it will be a smaller improvement than people were led
to believe
- there will be fear that existing code won't work,
but those fears will prove to be unfounded. After
a quarter century, most DOS programs run fine on XP.
I think the WIN32 API will be safe for at least that long.
Also, you shouldn't assume that Microsoft is going to
have a stranglehold on the industry forever. Look what happened
when IBM, which dominated the PC world in the mid-80's, tried to
get everyone to upgrade to PS/2 and OS/2. The industry and the public
decided to keep the existing standards, and IBM was left out in the cold.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
6. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Aug 04, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 05, 2005
Robert Craig wrote:
>
> Al Getz wrote:
> > In the down time, i've been thinking about Pete Lomax's solution to
> > 'allocate_string' and memory management using Euphoria, but now im
> > reading about something that sounds rather alarming here on the forum...
> > That is, MS's new "Vista" (previously "Longhorn"). This sounds like
> > something that could take our code we now have (in Euphoria) and turn
> > it into a pile of useless garbage. On the other hand, if this was
> > treated just like a new 'Platform' perhaps Rob could come up with
> > a new Euphoria for that platform too? Did anyone ask him yet?
> >
> > I know it might take a while for MS's new takeover, but i find they
> > are relentless when it comes to marketing and this new system is
> > a big trick to grab and keep more of the market as usual. I dont think
> > it can be stopped, and Linux dev is too slow to keep up, but if Rob
> > can begin to support the new 'platform' perhaps this would help?
> > So i repeat: did anyone ask Rob about support for Vista yet?
>
> Don't worry. As long as there's a C/C++ for Longhorn/Vista,
> there will be a Euphoria too.
>
Correct, Microsoft still supports their MFC (Microsoft Foundation Class) library
with their Visual C++ compiler. Visual C++ is now a hybrid Native and MSIL
compiler. Its 2005 version will support the current ISO C++ and CLR .NET v2.0
specification.
Win32 and COM development will still be 100% supported, even emulated DOS will
be available. However, if you wanted to make use of WinFX with Euphoria, one of
three things must happen first:
1) Euphoria for Windows to become a object-oriented .NET enabled language, with
a seperate byte code compiler to produce MSIL, it would have to be completely
compliant with the latest CLR specification.
2) A .NET bridge for Euphoria, that would wrap the .NET runtime into C++
compiled DLLs, then an additional Euphoria wrappers for those DLLs.
3) An Euphoria to MSIL translator, that would effectively convert normal
Euphoria code to Microsoft IL, to be executed by their JIT compiler.
The first option is the recommended, but any of these would be very complex &
difficult/daunting task, especially since Euphoria is not even an object-oriented
language, were as .NET is an advanced fully object-oriented platform like Java.
All these options would require the .NET framework redistributable runtime too.
> Judging by all previous Microsoft Windows upgrades,
> I think you can assume:
>
> - it will be delivered late
>
Winter 2006, maybe delayed a couple of months further. Beta 1 is out now.
That will be 5 years after the release of Windows XP in 2001. Normally a new
Microsoft OS comes out every 2 to 3 years. WinFS (next generation Windows file
system), MSH (Microsoft Command Shell), along with any major fixes and
improvements will all be available in a future service pack for Windows Vista.
> - it will prove to be more "hype" than substance
>
> - it will be a smaller improvement than people were led
> to believe
>
Windows Vista is promised to be a change as big as Windows 95 was to 3.1,
perhaps even bigger. Beta 1 already proves that for the most part, even though
many key features are missing, and is full of bugs. Microsoft wants a OS that is
comparable but different than Apple's MacOS X Tiger, which I believe is currently
the ultimate operating system.
Visit these sites for in depth information on Windows Vista:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Longhorn
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/Windows_Vista.html
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/basics/default.mspx
> - there will be fear that existing code won't work,
> but those fears will prove to be unfounded. After
> a quarter century, most DOS programs run fine on XP.
> I think the WIN32 API will be safe for at least that long.
>
I think Microsoft assumes that by 2008, virtually all new development on Windows
Vista will be with WinFX. Plus much more development with the .NET framework on
Windows 2000 and XP. WinFX will be the new native platform for developing rich
client + server side applications and web services, and the only way to go if you
wish to take advantage of Vista and beyond. People will have a choice of many
languages to choose from, just look at these .NET enabled languages:
http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx, and many more are to come; Euphoria
can be one of them! WinFX will also be available for download to Windows 2000,
Windows Server 2003, and Windows XP users to widen the availability to a much
larger user base.
> Also, you shouldn't assume that Microsoft is going to
> have a stranglehold on the industry forever. Look what happened
> when IBM, which dominated the PC world in the mid-80's, tried to
> get everyone to upgrade to PS/2 and OS/2. The industry and the public
> decided to keep the existing standards, and IBM was left out in the cold.
>
Computers as you know them today wont last forever, probably not even 4 decades
into this century.
Microsoft will continue to have hold on the desktop market, while Linux has hold
on the server side. However with the introduction of Windows Longhorn Server, it
is likely to see more businesses returning back to Windows. Several are already
doing this, such as Regal Entertainment Group in Los Vegas. Using a 10-year Net
Present Model, they relized that Windows Server System would significantly lower
thier Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) than using Red Hat Linux.
Realize that .NET will eventually find a place in the UNIX world too: Linux,
BSD, MacOS X. Mono is an open-source, cross-plaform implementation of the CLR
that is not affiliated with Microsoft. Currently only C# is supported, but an
Visual Basic.NET compiler is being developed and in alpha stage at the moment.
Microsoft is working on the v2.0 specification of their shared-source ECMA Common
Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the ECMA C# language specification code named:
Rotor, that is the core of the .NET framework, which is to build on Windows XP,
FreeBSD, and MacOS X. I believe Mono and dotGNU was made possible in part by
Rotor.
Visual Basic 2005 will be a big improvement, and become a more viable option
with the introduction of generics, operator overloading, XML comments, IsNot
operator, partial types, "My" namespace, "Continue" statement :P, continue & edit
debugging feature, and more. It is important to realize that VB6 and VB.NET are
two very different languages, and support for each other exists only in the
boundary of a .NET namespace: Microsoft.VisualBasic.dll.
> Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> <a href="http://www.RapidEuphoria.com">http://www.RapidEuphoria.com</a>
>
Regards,
Vincent
----------------------------------------------
___ __________ ___
/__/\ /__________\ |\ _\
\::\'\ //::::::::::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
\::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::|
\::\','/::/ |::| \::\\|::|
\::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::|
\::,::/ |::| \:::::|
\___/ |__| \____|
.``.
',,'
7. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by Jason Gade <jaygade at yahoo.com>
Aug 04, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 05, 2005
<snip microsoft fanboyism>
feh!
================================================================
"Actually, I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."
- Tom Tomorrow
j.
8. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by irv mullins <irvm at ellijay.com>
Aug 04, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 05, 2005
> Visual Basic 2005 will be a big improvement,
Meaning people will no longer laugh *out loud* when
you say you use it?
9. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by Mannequin <mannslists at invigorated.org>
Aug 04, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 05, 2005
Jason Gade wrote:
>
> <snip microsoft fanboyism>
> feh!
>
> j.
I agree with this post. It looks like you can add another to the ranks of
victims to Micro$oft's marketing million$.
-Mannequin.
My Euphoria works:
wxPetals - http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip
10. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Aug 04, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 05, 2005
Mannequin wrote:
>
> Jason Gade wrote:
> >
> > <snip microsoft fanboyism>
> > feh!
> >
> > j.
>
> I agree with this post. It looks like you can add another to the ranks of
> victims to
> Micro$oft's marketing million$.
>
>
> -Mannequin.
>
> My Euphoria works:
> wxPetals - <a
> href="http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip">http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip</a>
>
Well considering that I have yet to ever buy anything from Microsoft (Windows XP
came with my machine, there are free alternatives to Visual Studio IDEs,
Microsoft games were given to me as presents, etc.) I dont consider myself victim
to their marketing schemes. Depite their "evilness", their new products are
improving in quality; IMHO that is really all that should count to consumers.
Windows Vista Professional will probably be the first product *I* buy from
Microsoft.
What I am victim of is, purchasing Rapid Deployment Software (RDS) products:
v2.4 Translator, and v2.4 Interpreter. At least I got my free downgrade to v2.5
products. I am however happy that I purchased the v2.5 source code just in case
Robert ever lets go of the source license. If done so, Euphoria could have a
chance to climb itself out of that deep hole RDS has dug it. But then again, I'm
not very optimistic anymore.
No offence Robert.
Regards,
Vincent
----------------------------------------------
___ __________ ___
/__/\ /__________\ |\ _\
\::\'\ //::::::::::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
\::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::|
\::\','/::/ |::| \::\\|::|
\::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::|
\::,::/ |::| \:::::|
\___/ |__| \____|
.``.
',,'
11. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by D. Newhall <derek_newhall at yahoo.com>
Aug 04, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 05, 2005
Vincent wrote:
>
>
> Correct, Microsoft still supports their MFC (Microsoft Foundation Class)
> library with
> their Visual C++ compiler. Visual C++ is now a hybrid Native and MSIL
> compiler. Its
> 2005 version will support the current ISO C++ and CLR .NET v2.0 specification.
So far Microsoft's support for language standards has been utter crap. They've
never implemented a fully standard version of C or C+.
> Win32 and COM development will still be 100% supported, even emulated DOS will
> be available.
> However, if you wanted to make use of WinFX with Euphoria, one of three things
> must
> happen first:
>
> 1) Euphoria for Windows to become a object-oriented .NET enabled language,
> with a seperate
> byte code compiler to produce MSIL, it would have to be completely compliant
> with the
> latest CLR specification.
>
> 2) A .NET bridge for Euphoria, that would wrap the .NET runtime into C++
> compiled DLLs,
> then an additional Euphoria wrappers for those DLLs.
>
> 3) An Euphoria to MSIL translator, that would effectively convert normal
> Euphoria code
> to Microsoft IL, to be executed by their JIT compiler.
>
> The first option is the recommended, but any of these would be very complex &
> difficult/daunting
> task, especially since Euphoria is not even an object-oriented language, were
> as .NET is
> an advanced fully object-oriented platform like Java. All these options would
> require the
> .NET framework redistributable runtime too.
What's more likely I think is that there'll be a separate product that'll
compile it for you or something assuming Rob even decides to port it to .NET at
all. Also, the ideal would be the third choice and not the first. Euphoria isn't
object oriented now so I doubt it'd be overhauled just for a single new platform.
> > Judging by all previous Microsoft Windows upgrades,
> > I think you can assume:
> >
> > - it will be delivered late
> >
>
> Winter 2006, maybe delayed a couple of months further. Beta 1 is out now.
> That will be 5 years after the release of Windows XP in 2001. Normally a new
> Microsoft
> OS comes out every 2 to 3 years. WinFS (next generation Windows file system),
> MSH (Microsoft
> Command Shell), along with any major fixes and improvements will all be
> available in
> a future service pack for Windows Vista.
Maybe, the other just as likely possibility is that WinFS will be in the next
version of Windows. The new shell will be in Vista eventually but MS initially
said WinFS would be in the next Windows.
> > - it will prove to be more "hype" than substance
> >
> > - it will be a smaller improvement than people were led
> > to believe
> >
>
> Windows Vista is promised to be a change as big as Windows 95 was to 3.1,
> perhaps even
> bigger. Beta 1 already proves that for the most part, even though many key
> features
> are missing, and is full of bugs. Microsoft wants a OS that is comparable but
> different
> than Apple's MacOS X Tiger, which I believe is currently the ultimate
> operating system.
Again we're going on what Microsoft is saying. There's a pretty good chance that
it might just be a GUI update with some new apps.
> > - there will be fear that existing code won't work,
> > but those fears will prove to be unfounded. After
> > a quarter century, most DOS programs run fine on XP.
> > I think the WIN32 API will be safe for at least that long.
> >
>
> I think Microsoft assumes that by 2008, virtually all new development on
> Windows Vista will be with WinFX. Plus much more development with the
> .NET framework on Windows 2000 and XP. WinFX will be the new native platform
> for developing rich client + server side applications and web services,
> and the only way to go if you wish to take advantage of Vista and beyond.
> People will have a choice of many languages to choose from, just look
> at these .NET enabled languages: <a
> href="http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx,">http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx,</a>
> and many
> more are to come; Euphoria can be one of them! WinFX will also be available
> for download to Windows 2000, Windows Server 2003, and Windows XP
> users to widen the availability to a much larger user base.
What MS assumes and what's the truth are not always the same. For all we know
they might cancel .NET by the time 2008 rolls around. Also, if my old apps didn't
work in XP I would have stayed with 98 plus almost all new programs still support
98/ME.
> > Also, you shouldn't assume that Microsoft is going to
> > have a stranglehold on the industry forever. Look what happened
> > when IBM, which dominated the PC world in the mid-80's, tried to
> > get everyone to upgrade to PS/2 and OS/2. The industry and the public
> > decided to keep the existing standards, and IBM was left out in the cold.
> >
>
> Computers as you know them today wont last forever, probably not even 4
> decades into
> this century.
What makes you say this? We've had UNIX for 30+ years and IBM still sells
mainframes that are compatible with stuff from the '60s.
> Microsoft will continue to have hold on the desktop market, while Linux has
> hold on
> the server side. However with the introduction of Windows Longhorn Server, it
> is likely
> to see more businesses returning back to Windows. Several are already doing
> this, such
> as Regal Entertainment Group in Los Vegas. Using a 10-year Net Present Model,
> they
> relized that Windows Server System would significantly lower thier Total Cost
> of Ownership
> (TCO) than using Red Hat Linux.
Where'd you hear this? Also, the most secure server's are believed to be Mac OS
X and FreeBSD with Red Hat Enterprise topping the Linux distros according to a
security audit by the British government. If you look at the list of servers with
the highest uptime (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html) there are
only 4 Windows 2000 servers in the top 50 the rest are all BSD/OS or FreeBSD
(except one IRIX and one Linux).
> Realize that .NET will eventually find a place in the UNIX world too: Linux,
> BSD, MacOS
> X. Mono is an open-source, cross-plaform implementation of the CLR that is not
> affiliated
> with Microsoft. Currently only C# is supported, but an Visual Basic.NET
> compiler is
> being developed and in alpha stage at the moment. Microsoft is working on the
> v2.0
> specification of their shared-source ECMA Common Language Infrastructure (CLI)
> and
> the ECMA C# language specification code named: Rotor, that is the core of the
> .NET
> framework, which is to build on Windows XP, FreeBSD, and MacOS X. I believe
> Mono and
> dotGNU was made possible in part by Rotor.
No, if you read the license you can't use Rotor code anywhere and for anything
to the extent that writing bug fixes is disallowed.
The Euphoria Standard Library project :
http://esl.sourceforge.net/
The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list :
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion
12. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Vincent wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> What I am victim of is, purchasing Rapid Deployment Software (RDS) products:
> v2.4 Translator,
> and v2.4 Interpreter. At least I got my free downgrade to v2.5 products. I am
> however
> happy that I purchased the v2.5 source code just in case Robert ever lets go
> of the
> source license. If done so, Euphoria could have a chance to climb itself out
> of that
> deep hole RDS has dug it. But then again, I'm not very optimistic anymore.
>
> No offence Robert.
Out of curiosity why do you seem to dislike Euphoria so much (or perhaps more
accurately RDS's treatment of it)? I'm not criticizing you or anything, you are
entitled to your opinion and all, I just don't think you ever really explained
why you seem so strongly against Euphoria.
The Euphoria Standard Library project :
http://esl.sourceforge.net/
The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list :
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion
13. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Vincent wrote:
>
> Mannequin wrote:
> >
> > Jason Gade wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip microsoft fanboyism>
> > > feh!
> >
> > I agree with this post. It looks like you can add another to the ranks of
> > victims to
> > Micro$oft's marketing million$.
>
> Well considering that I have yet to ever buy anything from Microsoft (Windows
> XP came
> with my machine, there are free alternatives to Visual Studio IDEs, Microsoft
> games
> were given to me as presents, etc.) I dont consider myself victim to their
> marketing
> schemes. Depite their "evilness", their new products are improving in quality;
> IMHO
> that is really all that should count to consumers.
>
> Windows Vista Professional will probably be the first product *I* buy from
> Microsoft.
I disagree here. You don't have to purchase a product from Microsoft to be a
victim of what YOU called it's 'evilness.' (Besides that, you purchased a
computer with Windows on it, therefore you purchased Windows. It was included in
the price of your PC.)
The reason I said you had fallen to their marketing power is because, in the
small amount of time that I've been here, you've done nothing but slam RDS and
tout how Microsoft is taking over the known world. You've said numerous times
that Linux was doomed because of the next wanna-be OS from the folks at
Microsoft. So puleeeze, don't try and insult our intelligence by saying that you
have not fallen for their 'worm on a fish hook.'
(Snipped more anti-RDS text...)
I know that I'm a newbie in these parts, so forgive me for jumping in here. I'm
just getting rather sick of the misinformation being presented as fact. I hold
nothing against Vincent or anyone else here... yet. ;)
-Mannequin.
My Euphoria works:
wxPetals - http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip
14. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Vincent wrote:
> I dont consider myself victim to their marketing
> schemes. Depite their "evilness", their new products are improving in quality;
> IMHO
> that is really all that should count to consumers.
Vincent, you have to remember that in this list, and the list of any programming
language I bet, you're not talking to "consumers." You're talking to the
advanced users who know how to get what they want from their PC. We're not
wowed by the pretty red-blue-green faceplate GUI of an OS... we're wowed by
the internals, the security, the ease-of-use, the user management, etc...
> Windows Vista Professional will probably be the first product *I* buy from
> Microsoft.
I will never buy another product from M$ again. There are too many free
alternatives. Honestly, what do they make that one can't live without?
-=ck
"Programming in a state of EUPHORIA."
http://www.cklester.com/euphoria/
15. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
D. Newhall wrote:
>
> Vincent wrote:
> >
> (snip)
> >
> > What I am victim of is, purchasing Rapid Deployment Software (RDS) products:
> > v2.4 Translator,
> > and v2.4 Interpreter. At least I got my free downgrade to v2.5 products. I
> > am however
> > happy that I purchased the v2.5 source code just in case Robert ever lets go
> > of the
> > source license. If done so, Euphoria could have a chance to climb itself out
> > of that
> > deep hole RDS has dug it. But then again, I'm not very optimistic anymore.
> >
> > No offence Robert.
>
> Out of curiosity why do you seem to dislike Euphoria so much (or perhaps more
> accurately
> RDS's treatment of it)? I'm not criticizing you or anything, you are entitled
> to your
> opinion and all, I just don't think you ever really explained why you seem so
> strongly
> against Euphoria.
>
>
> The Euphoria Standard Library project :
> <a href="http://esl.sourceforge.net/">http://esl.sourceforge.net/</a>
> The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list :
> <a
> href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion</a>
>
I dont dislike Euphoria, if I did, I wouldnt have stayed with it for 2 years
(that may not seem long to you guys :P). Euphoria has been a pleasure with it's
simplicity, but also a barrier. Simple is good, but security is even more
important. I want the security in knowing that Euphoria will last the test of
time, with all the new technological advancements in computing and developer
productivity. This is a major issue, because the community is so small. The fact
that Euphoria comes shipped with DOS applications and batch files is not a good
example of moving forward. Where is the IDE? or even a simple Windows and Linux
editor? or a more complete standard library? Sure we have many of them now, after
someone develops else them! But there is still alot of missing pieces, again
mostly due to lack of development, and a very small active community. I mean, you
guys are developing your own standard library, geez. That should of at least been
tooken care of by RDS for the most part. It seems like alot of time is spent
making Euphoria work, rather than just the main goal; Often having to invent your
own tools (libraries) is not very productive. And oh... and it seems like half
the libraries in the archive are "wrappers". If Eu had support for structures and
stuff, we wouldnt need them.
Euphoria has failed to embrace the other dominating programming technologies
like Java... even interfacing with simple C++ is fuzzy. Sure C is the most used
but there is many others just below it, and C is not getting anymore popular. Now
there is .NET, it is here to stay and becoming even more important. Now what?
Sure most of us are all hobbyists, but pretending nothing is wrong is foolish.
I guess I expected too much from Euphoria and RDS, I apologize for that and the
flaming. Euphoria COULD of been that next big thing in programming, just like
Java is with almost 5 million developers. But this just isnt the case, and Robert
doesnt have the dedication. So this why I have left, and so many others.
Chris Bensler had his points here, but few listened or cared. I'm not anti-RDS,
I just dont agree with their development strategy and how they ignore their
customers. I bet most of you guys dont either. I just wasnt afraid to speak out
for what we want or stood for.
Regards,
Vincent
----------------------------------------------
___ __________ ___
/__/\ /__________\ |\ _\
\::\'\ //::::::::::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
\::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::|
\::\','/::/ |::| \::\\|::|
\::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::|
\::,::/ |::| \:::::|
\___/ |__| \____|
.``.
',,'
16. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Mannequin wrote:
>
> Vincent wrote:
> >
> > Mannequin wrote:
> > >
> > > Jason Gade wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <snip microsoft fanboyism>
> > > > feh!
> > >
> > > I agree with this post. It looks like you can add another to the ranks of
> > > victims to
> > > Micro$oft's marketing million$.
> >
> > Well considering that I have yet to ever buy anything from Microsoft
> > (Windows XP came
> > with my machine, there are free alternatives to Visual Studio IDEs,
> > Microsoft games
> > were given to me as presents, etc.) I dont consider myself victim to their
> > marketing
> > schemes. Depite their "evilness", their new products are improving in
> > quality; IMHO
> > that is really all that should count to consumers.
> >
> > Windows Vista Professional will probably be the first product *I* buy from
> > Microsoft.
>
> I disagree here. You don't have to purchase a product from Microsoft to be a
> victim
> of what YOU called it's 'evilness.' (Besides that, you purchased a computer
> with Windows
> on it, therefore you purchased Windows. It was included in the price of your
> PC.)
>
If people didn't buy their products, their billions spent on marketing would
obviously not be effective, now would it?!?!
I didn't buy my PC either; It was a gift, and very nice one at that. :D
> The reason I said you had fallen to their marketing power is because, in the
> small
> amount of time that I've been here, you've done nothing but slam RDS and tout
> how Microsoft
> is taking over the known world. You've said numerous times that Linux was
> doomed because
> of the next wanna-be OS from the folks at Microsoft. So puleeeze, don't try
> and insult
> our intelligence by saying that you have not fallen for their 'worm on a fish
> hook.'
>
I never said Linux was doomed, but rather trying to point out that newer
Microsoft products are not crap, and that they are only getting better. I'm
rather tired of the anti-Microsoft sh!7, and that Linux will conquer Windows.
I mentioned why I was leaving and where I was going, then I took the "heat" from
others, I was merely debating in a friendly manner.
> (Snipped more anti-RDS text...)
>
> I know that I'm a newbie in these parts, so forgive me for jumping in here.
> I'm just
> getting rather sick of the misinformation being presented as fact. I hold
> nothing against
> Vincent or anyone else here... yet. ;)
Lets leave it at that!!
>
> -Mannequin.
>
> My Euphoria works:
> wxPetals - <a
> href="http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip">http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip</a>
>
Regards,
Vincent
----------------------------------------------
___ __________ ___
/__/\ /__________\ |\ _\
\::\'\ //::::::::::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
\::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::|
\::\','/::/ |::| \::\\|::|
\::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::|
\::,::/ |::| \:::::|
\___/ |__| \____|
.``.
',,'
17. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
D. Newhall wrote:
>
>
> posted by: D. Newhall <derek_newhall at yahoo.com>
>
> Vincent wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
>>What I am victim of is, purchasing Rapid Deployment Software (RDS) products:
>>v2.4 Translator,
>>and v2.4 Interpreter. At least I got my free downgrade to v2.5 products. I am
>>however
>>happy that I purchased the v2.5 source code just in case Robert ever lets go
>>of the
>>source license. If done so, Euphoria could have a chance to climb itself out
>>of that
>>deep hole RDS has dug it. But then again, I'm not very optimistic anymore.
>>
>>No offence Robert.
>
>
> Out of curiosity why do you seem to dislike Euphoria so much (or perhaps more
> accurately RDS's treatment of it)? I'm not criticizing you or anything, you are
> entitled to your opinion and all, I just don't think you ever really explained
> why you seem so strongly against Euphoria.
>
If I remember previous comments correctly I think that Vincent is
recently out of high school and has very strong opinions on programming
without much experience to back it up.
Of course even though I've been out of high school for quite some time I
could say the same about myself 
--
==============================
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
j.
18. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Vincent wrote:
>
>
> posted by: Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
>
> Mannequin wrote:
>
>> Jason Gade wrote:
>>
>>> <snip microsoft fanboyism> feh!
>>>
>>> j.
>>
>> I agree with this post. It looks like you can add another to the
>> ranks of victims to Micro$oft's marketing million$.
>>
>>
>> -Mannequin.
>>
>> My Euphoria works: wxPetals - <a
>>
>> href="http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip">http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip</a>
>>
>>
> Well considering that I have yet to ever buy anything from Microsoft
> (Windows XP came with my machine, there are free alternatives to
> Visual Studio IDEs, Microsoft games were given to me as presents,
> etc.) I dont consider myself victim to their marketing schemes.
You don't have to buy stuff from 'em to be a victim of their marketing
schemes. You just have to listen to them too creduously.
> Depite their "evilness", their new products are improving in quality;
> IMHO that is really all that should count to consumers.
Although free and open-source software is a value-added proposition to
me I agree with you. MS actually makes many good products.
>
> Windows Vista Professional will probably be the first product *I* buy
> from Microsoft.
I always said I would never buy Windows XP, but I did. It was worth it
even though I like *nix better for many things.
>
> What I am victim of is, purchasing Rapid Deployment Software (RDS)
> products: v2.4 Translator, and v2.4 Interpreter. At least I got my
> free downgrade to v2.5 products. I am however happy that I purchased
> the v2.5 source code just in case Robert ever lets go of the source
> license. If done so, Euphoria could have a chance to climb itself out
> of that deep hole RDS has dug it. But then again, I'm not very
> optimistic anymore.
Why did you buy anything? I haven't even though I do believe that RDS
deserves some of my hard-earned money because they put out such a good
product. If you had any doubts about it you shouldn't have spent your
money on it.
From your earlier posts it seems like you have more money than you know
what to do with. I wish that I was in that boat!
No offense, Vincent.
>
> No offence Robert.
>
> Regards, Vincent
>
> ---------------------------------------------- ___ __________
> ___ /__/\ /__________\ |\ _\ \::\'\
> //::::::::::\\ |'|::| \::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::| \::\'\
> //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::| \::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
> \::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::| \::\','/::/ |::|
> \::\\|::| \::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::| \::,::/ |::|
> \:::::| \___/ |__| \____|
>
> .``. ',,'
>
================================================================
"Actually, I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."
- Tom Tomorrow
j.
19. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Vincent wrote:
>
>
> posted by: Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
>
> D. Newhall wrote:
>
>> Vincent wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>> What I am victim of is, purchasing Rapid Deployment Software
>>> (RDS) products: v2.4 Translator, and v2.4 Interpreter. At least I
>>> got my free downgrade to v2.5 products. I am however happy that I
>>> purchased the v2.5 source code just in case Robert ever lets go
>>> of the source license. If done so, Euphoria could have a chance
>>> to climb itself out of that deep hole RDS has dug it. But then
>>> again, I'm not very optimistic anymore.
>>>
>>> No offence Robert.
>>
>> Out of curiosity why do you seem to dislike Euphoria so much (or
>> perhaps more accurately RDS's treatment of it)? I'm not criticizing
>> you or anything, you are entitled to your opinion and all, I just
>> don't think you ever really explained why you seem so strongly
>> against Euphoria.
>>
>>
>> The Euphoria Standard Library project : <a
>> href="http://esl.sourceforge.net/">http://esl.sourceforge.net/</a>
>> The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list : <a
>>
>> href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion</a>
>>
>>
> I dont dislike Euphoria, if I did, I wouldnt have stayed with it for
> 2 years (that may not seem long to you guys :P). Euphoria has been a
> pleasure with it's simplicity, but also a barrier. Simple is good,
> but security is even more important. I want the security in knowing
> that Euphoria will last the test of time, with all the new
> technological advancements in computing and developer productivity.
I'm pretty sure it will.
> This is a major issue, because the community is so small. The fact
> that Euphoria comes shipped with DOS applications and batch files is
> not a good example of moving forward. Where is the IDE? or even a
> simple Windows and Linux editor? or a more complete standard library?
> Sure we have many of them now, after someone develops else them! But
> there is still alot of missing pieces, again mostly due to lack of
> development, and a very small active community. I mean, you guys are
> developing your own standard library, geez. That should of at least
> been tooken care of by RDS for the most part. It seems like alot of
> time is spent making Euphoria work, rather than just the main goal;
> Often having to invent your own tools (libraries) is not very
> productive. And oh... and it seems like half the libraries in the
> archive are "wrappers". If Eu had support for structures and stuff,
> we wouldnt need them.
This isn't too much different than the way open-source projects work. I
know that I've said in the past that Euphoria is open-source and it
really is very close. But the community is a big part of developing and
furthuring the language. It's not all just up to RDS.
Yeah, I would like to see (a few) more features added to Euphoria. But I
like the language enough in its simple form to want to see it succeed
and try to help in whatever limited fashion that I can.
It seems like with veeu that you at one time wanted the same.
>
> Euphoria has failed to embrace the other dominating programming
> technologies like Java... even interfacing with simple C++ is fuzzy.
Any language interfacing with C++ is fuzzy. It is the nature of the
beast. Different compiler vendors can't even agree on the same time of
name-mangling!
> Sure C is the most used but there is many others just below it, and C
> is not getting anymore popular. Now there is .NET, it is here to stay
> and becoming even more important. Now what? Sure most of us are all
> hobbyists, but pretending nothing is wrong is foolish.
>
> I guess I expected too much from Euphoria and RDS, I apologize for
> that and the flaming. Euphoria COULD of been that next big thing in
> programming, just like Java is with almost 5 million developers. But
> this just isnt the case, and Robert doesnt have the dedication. So
> this why I have left, and so many others.
>
> Chris Bensler had his points here, but few listened or cared. I'm not
> anti-RDS, I just dont agree with their development strategy and how
> they ignore their customers. I bet most of you guys dont either. I
> just wasnt afraid to speak out for what we want or stood for.
>
> Regards, Vincent
>
> ---------------------------------------------- ___ __________
> ___ /__/\ /__________\ |\ _\ \::\'\
> //::::::::::\\ |'|::| \::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::| \::\'\
> //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::| \::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
> \::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::| \::\','/::/ |::|
> \::\\|::| \::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::| \::,::/ |::|
> \:::::| \___/ |__| \____|
>
> .``. ',,'
--
================================================================
"Actually, I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."
- Tom Tomorrow
j.
20. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Vincent wrote:
>
> Mannequin wrote:
> >
> > Vincent wrote:
> > >
> > > Mannequin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jason Gade wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip microsoft fanboyism>
> > > > > feh!
> > > >
> > > > I agree with this post. It looks like you can add another to the ranks
> > > > of victims to
> > > > Micro$oft's marketing million$.
> > >
> > > Well considering that I have yet to ever buy anything from Microsoft
> > > (Windows XP came
> > > with my machine, there are free alternatives to Visual Studio IDEs,
> > > Microsoft games
> > > were given to me as presents, etc.) I dont consider myself victim to their
> > > marketing
> > > schemes. Depite their "evilness", their new products are improving in
> > > quality; IMHO
> > > that is really all that should count to consumers.
> > >
> > > Windows Vista Professional will probably be the first product *I* buy from
> > > Microsoft.
> >
> > I disagree here. You don't have to purchase a product from Microsoft to be a
> > victim
> > of what YOU called it's 'evilness.' (Besides that, you purchased a computer
> > with Windows
> > on it, therefore you purchased Windows. It was included in the price of your
> > PC.)
> >
>
> If people didn't buy their products, their billions spent on marketing would
> obviously
> not be effective, now would it?!?!
>
> I didn't buy my PC either; It was a gift, and very nice one at that. :D
>
> > The reason I said you had fallen to their marketing power is because, in the
> > small
> > amount of time that I've been here, you've done nothing but slam RDS and
> > tout how Microsoft
> > is taking over the known world. You've said numerous times that Linux was
> > doomed because
> > of the next wanna-be OS from the folks at Microsoft. So puleeeze, don't try
> > and insult
> > our intelligence by saying that you have not fallen for their 'worm on a
> > fish hook.'
> >
>
> I never said Linux was doomed, but rather trying to point out that newer
> Microsoft
> products are not crap, and that they are only getting better. I'm rather tired
> of the
> anti-Microsoft sh!7, and that Linux will conquer Windows.
>
> I mentioned why I was leaving and where I was going, then I took the "heat"
> from others,
> I was merely debating in a friendly manner.
>
> > (Snipped more anti-RDS text...)
> >
> > I know that I'm a newbie in these parts, so forgive me for jumping in here.
> > I'm just
> > getting rather sick of the misinformation being presented as fact. I hold
> > nothing against
> > Vincent or anyone else here... yet. ;)
>
> Lets leave it at that!!
When?
>
> >
> > -Mannequin.
> >
> > My Euphoria works:
> > wxPetals - <a
> > href="http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip">http://www.rapideuphoria.com/wxpetals.zip</a>
> >
>
> Regards,
> Vincent
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> ___ __________ ___
> /__/\ /__________\ |\ _\
> \::\'\ //::::::::::\\ |'|::|
> \::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::|
> \::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::|
> \::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
> \::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::|
> \::\','/::/ |::| \::\\|::|
> \::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::|
> \::,::/ |::| \:::::|
> \___/ |__| \____|
>
> .``.
> ',,'
>
>
21. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Hi
I am sick to death of Eu/RDS bashing.
I love this language. It does exactly what I need, its dead easy to write. Its
dead easy to understand. Its fast. Its cheap. (not free, cheap, who caeres, I can
afford it). Its cross platform.
I love writing in this language. I wrote a program in C, with debugging etc,
that took me 4 years. I'm at the same stage with this program in Eu after 5
months.
The libraries do what I need, yes they are written by the community, and they
probably are better for it. Anything they don't do, I write with my own specs.
I choose not to want / learn OOP, but its there if other people want it.
Yes, the program comes with dos / command line examples, which just demonstrate
the absolute bare bones of the language. So do the various flavours of C / C++ (I
believe).
So we can't interface IMMEDIATELY with c++ libraries, just with one call. So
what. Find another way of doing what you want.
I like the way the language is, I like its simplicity.
My ONLY (absolutely tiny) little gripe is the fact that this is a list and not a
forum, where the negative posts could be shunted off to a separate thread which I
didn't have to read.
(I've actually said something like this before, the response was that if the
points aren't raised then things won't change. Fair enough. On the other hand
hand if you don't like the way things are, then stop whinging, find another
language. They all have their pros and cons, but damn sure Eu has more pros than
all the others)
Just my 2p worth.
Chris
http://members.aol.com/chriscrylex/euphoria.htm
http://uboard.proboards32.com/
22. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Chris Burch wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> I am sick to death of Eu/RDS bashing.
>
> I love this language. It does exactly what I need, its dead easy to write. Its
> dead
> easy to understand. Its fast. Its cheap. (not free, cheap, who caeres, I can
> afford
> it). Its cross platform.
>
> I love writing in this language. I wrote a program in C, with debugging etc,
> that took
> me 4 years. I'm at the same stage with this program in Eu after 5 months.
>
> The libraries do what I need, yes they are written by the community, and they
> probably
> are better for it. Anything they don't do, I write with my own specs.
>
> I choose not to want / learn OOP, but its there if other people want it.
>
> Yes, the program comes with dos / command line examples, which just
> demonstrate the
> absolute bare bones of the language. So do the various flavours of C / C++ (I
> believe).
>
> So we can't interface IMMEDIATELY with c++ libraries, just with one call. So
> what.
> Find another way of doing what you want.
>
> I like the way the language is, I like its simplicity.
>
> My ONLY (absolutely tiny) little gripe is the fact that this is a list and not
> a forum,
> where the negative posts could be shunted off to a separate thread which I
> didn't have
> to read.
>
> (I've actually said something like this before, the response was that if the
> points
> aren't raised then things won't change. Fair enough. On the other hand hand if
> you
> don't like the way things are, then stop whinging, find another language. They
> all
> have their pros and cons, but damn sure Eu has more pros than all the others)
>
> Just my 2p worth.
>
> Chris
>
>
> <a
> href="http://members.aol.com/chriscrylex/euphoria.htm">http://members.aol.com/chriscrylex/euphoria.htm</a>
> <a href="http://uboard.proboards32.com/">http://uboard.proboards32.com/</a>
>
"On the other hand hand if you don't like the way things are, then stop
whinging, find another language."
I already have, a quite a few of them.
"but damn sure Eu has more pros than all the others"
That is your opinion, not mine.
Regards,
Vincent
23. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Chris Burch wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> I am sick to death of Eu/RDS bashing.
>
> I love this language. It does exactly what I need, its dead easy to write. Its
> dead
> easy to understand. Its fast. Its cheap. (not free, cheap, who caeres, I can
> afford
> it). Its cross platform.
>
> I love writing in this language. I wrote a program in C, with debugging etc,
> that took
> me 4 years. I'm at the same stage with this program in Eu after 5 months.
>
> The libraries do what I need, yes they are written by the community, and they
> probably
> are better for it. Anything they don't do, I write with my own specs.
>
> I choose not to want / learn OOP, but its there if other people want it.
>
> Yes, the program comes with dos / command line examples, which just
> demonstrate the
> absolute bare bones of the language. So do the various flavours of C / C++ (I
> believe).
>
> So we can't interface IMMEDIATELY with c++ libraries, just with one call. So
> what.
> Find another way of doing what you want.
>
> I like the way the language is, I like its simplicity.
>
> My ONLY (absolutely tiny) little gripe is the fact that this is a list and not
> a forum,
> where the negative posts could be shunted off to a separate thread which I
> didn't have
> to read.
>
> (I've actually said something like this before, the response was that if the
> points
> aren't raised then things won't change. Fair enough. On the other hand hand if
> you
> don't like the way things are, then stop whinging, find another language. They
> all
> have their pros and cons, but damn sure Eu has more pros than all the others)
>
> Just my 2p worth.
>
> Chris
>
>
> <a
> href="http://members.aol.com/chriscrylex/euphoria.htm">http://members.aol.com/chriscrylex/euphoria.htm</a>
> <a href="http://uboard.proboards32.com/">http://uboard.proboards32.com/</a>
>
I have agree with Chris on this.
I had two questions posted recently strictly dealing with Euphoria that have
gone
un-answered thus far because I believe they got lost in discussions about Linux
vs. Microsoft.
I had a question about Linux but it had to do obtaining the software, Not if it
was better or worse
than Windows. I figure I ‘ll figure that out for myself once I get Linux up and
running, Maybe I will
like them both perhaps Linux for one task and Microsoft for another. Judge Bork
, during his conformation hearings, when asked his position on the IE - Netscape
controversy said "There’s enough room on modern drives for both. What’s the
problem?"
One my questions was about not being able to bind Edita and other I forgot .
It’s been so long and I got so distracted with a lot of other drivel on this
board. I don’t care that much if my question gets answered or not. I’ll figure
it out myself eventually. But I am just plain lazy and would rather read the
answer quickly.
However , I would like read, on this forum ,the answers to SOMBODY’S questions
or tricks that others
use to get around this or that in Euphoria. I like to see examples of code in
posts. There’s not much of that anymore.
And to those who like to write these lengthy posts explaining why they are
leaving Euphoria for a better
language I say, "Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."
Don Cole,
SF
24. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
don cole wrote:
>
> Chris Burch wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I am sick to death of Eu/RDS bashing.
> >
> > I love this language. It does exactly what I need, its dead easy to write.
> > Its dead
> > easy to understand. Its fast. Its cheap. (not free, cheap, who caeres, I can
> > afford
> > it). Its cross platform.
<SNIP>
They all
> > have their pros and cons, but damn sure Eu has more pros than all the
> > others)
> >
> > Just my 2p worth.
> >
> > Chris
<SNIP>
> I have agree with Chris on this.
>
> I had two questions posted recently strictly dealing with Euphoria that have
> gone
> un-answered thus far because I believe they got lost in discussions about
> Linux vs.
> Microsoft.
<SNIP>
> However , I would like read, on this forum ,the answers to SOMBODY’S
> questions or
> tricks that others
> use to get around this or that in Euphoria. I like to see examples of code in
> posts.
> There’s not much of that anymore.
>
> And to those who like to write these lengthy posts explaining why they are
> leaving
> Euphoria for a better
> language I say, "Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."
>
>
> Don Cole,
> SF
Hi all,
I agree in general with both Chris and Don. Euphoria is a fine programming
language and more about programming would obviously be a good thing. And a big
problem with negative posts is not that people don't have a right to express
themselves as they wish -- they *do*. But the simmering flames can start a big
fire and scorch the good side of things, if people are not careful. Putting it
differently, bummerhood can be catching, like the flu.
As for not letting the "door hit you in the ass on the way out", I have two
different and simultaneous reactions to that: one is "yes!, go and darken the
door no more". The other reaction is a sense of loss and a realization that in a
sense no one ever completely leaves a good forum like this one. The ghost of MTS
is still somewhere in the corner, being irritating. The fellow that RC compared
to a skunk under his house lives on in the archives. On the brighter side, David
Cuny and many other great programmers still affect all Eu programmers, though
they rarely or never post anymore. Their work and influence are still with us on
a daily basis.
And as for getting back to programming, I'll post a sort of puzzle later today
just for the fun of it.
--Quark
25. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by Al Getz <Xaxo at aol.com>
Aug 05, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 06, 2005
Hello again,
Brian:
Yeah, perhaps im jumping the gun a bit, but you know years go by and then
all of a sudden your stuck with software that doesnt work anymore. Happened
to me with XP. Yeah, XP is better than 98 for sure, but gee that lost
software... I guess it's part of progress though too huh? If Vista is to
XP as Win 95 was to Win 3.1 then gee, i guess that really will be progress
which will have to be weighted in with some loss of programs. I dont want
to lose Euphoria however...no way...if that happens i'll really HAVE to
switch to Linux or something else. I'd also really HATE to lose the
Win API too and other .dll based libraries that ship with Windows. Just
too used to using that stuff now :)
I wonder if Vista will have .dll libraries that we can call with Euphoria
like we do now with the api?
DonCole:
Maybe i should have gotten one of those flu shots too:) Im getting better
slowly but still not over it completely.
Irv:
That's good to hear (MS already dropped some stuff in Vista).
I see what you mean about them possibly losing too many customers
if the change is TOO big, but then look what happened with Win 3.1.
Ok, maybe if the change occurs over a long enough period.
Oh so you're saying Linux is keeping up with Windows then? That's
good to hear! I have a feeling i'll end up with Linux sooner or later.
I've already used the 'live' version and the only problem i had was
driver compat. with my vid card.
Rob:
QUOTE
Don't worry. As long as there's a C/C++ for Longhorn/Vista,
there will be a Euphoria too.
END QUOTE
Hey, that's great news :) I'd like to be able to use Euphoria on
Vista for sure. I had a feeling you might come up with something
for that platform as well.
QUOTE
Judging by all previous Microsoft Windows upgrades,
I think you can assume:
- it will be delivered late
- it will prove to be more "hype" than substance
- it will be a smaller improvement than people were led
to believe
- there will be fear that existing code won't work,
but those fears will prove to be unfounded. After
a quarter century, most DOS programs run fine on XP.
I think the WIN32 API will be safe for at least that long.
Also, you shouldn't assume that Microsoft is going to
have a stranglehold on the industry forever. Look what happened
when IBM, which dominated the PC world in the mid-80's, tried to
get everyone to upgrade to PS/2 and OS/2. The industry and the public
decided to keep the existing standards, and IBM was left out in the cold.
END QUOTE
Hey that sound great too. You're right, and the longer they take the
happier i'll be :)
I guess something does have to be said about progress as i mentioned above.
I see Win95 did in fact improve 3.1 SIGNIFICANTLY, and XP did improve 98
also. I guess if Vista improves XP that much we might actually benefit
in the long run and have to take the changes in stride.
Vincent:
I had read that MS was going to drop support for COM, but that's probably
hype too. Thanks for the info...i'll have to do some more reading when
im totally over my flu.
Thanks to everyone for the informative replies!
Take care,
Al
And, good luck with your Euphoria programming!
My bumper sticker: "I brake for LED's"
26. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by Greg Haberek <ghaberek at gmail.com>
Aug 05, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 06, 2005
> Thanks to everyone for the informative replies!
Just to add this in, I think Microsoft is trying too hard to maintain
dominance in the industry. A quote from their Vista homepage: "Aero,
Windows Vista's new design approach, includes a set of APIs that help
developers create highly usable applications that generate a positive
and lasting emotional connection with users."
Emotional connection?! I've developed an emotional connection to my
girlfriend, not my computer. I think I'm gonna start breaking out that
Fedora DVD soon, just so I don't have to worry about becoming
"emotionally connected" to my PC.
~Greg
27. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by Ferlin Scarborough <ferlin1 at bellsouth.net>
Aug 05, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 06, 2005
Could you purchase any of the .NET or other languages like VB or DELPHI, etc for
around $40.00 like you can Euphoria?
Euphoria is worth 2 to 3 times that much in my book, so I think I'll just sit
back and let Rob make the changes he wants to Euphoria, and not complain. :)
Later.
Ferlin Scarborough
Learn To Program Games in Free Courses
Now contains an Introduction To Euphoria Programming Course At
http://www.gameuniv.net
My Euphoria Home Page
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/shadetreesoft
My Free Games Page
http://freewebtown.com/ferlin
28. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
- Posted by DB James <larch at adelphia.net>
Aug 05, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 06, 2005
Hi Al,
Good to see you "out and about" after the Black Flu. Are you reachable these
days by regular email?
--Quark
29. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Ferlin Scarborough wrote:
>
> Could you purchase any of the .NET or other languages like VB or DELPHI, etc
> for around
> $40.00 like you can Euphoria?
>
> Euphoria is worth 2 to 3 times that much in my book, so I think I'll just sit
> back
> and let Rob make the changes he wants to Euphoria, and not complain. :)
>
> Later.
>
> Ferlin Scarborough
>
Actually, you can download the latest beta of C# and IDE for free if you want.
Even though I don't much care for OOP, it's a great bargain if you just want to
learn it. According to the MS FAQ: "Our plan is to offer the Express products
for $49 per product when they are released."
The IDE may be a bit slow but it's invaluable when learning OOP because it
provides all of your dot-options and/or parameters as you type.
I still love Eu but C# express might be a good investment if you are looking to
work for most software development companies.
-- Brian
30. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Ferlin Scarborough wrote:
> Could you purchase any of the .NET or other languages like VB or DELPHI, etc
> for around
> $40.00 like you can Euphoria?
>
> Euphoria is worth 2 to 3 times that much in my book, so I think I'll just sit
> back
> and let Rob make the changes he wants to Euphoria, and not complain. :)
Actually, you can download the .NET SDK for free. It contains the C#-compiler,
the VB.NET-compiler and a lot of tools. It also contains a lot of examples.
If you want an IDE, there are multiple options. You can download the free,
open-source SharpDevelop IDE ( http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ ).
You can also purchase a commercial IDE.
Microsoft offers Visual Studio Express Editions for $49 (currently in beta:
free to use until the official release). The express editions are excellent:
they provide all the tools to start programming. They have great code-editors,
they provide WYSIWYG designers for Windows Forms, and ASP.NET Forms, and all
the basic tools you need.
For more advanced functionality, there are different Visual Studio editions.
At http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/productinfo/productline/default.aspx
you can find a comparison of the different editions (including express
editions).
Omnicore ( http://www.omnicore.com/ ) also has an IDE that you can use to create
.NET and Java applications. It costs $299 for a 1-4 developer license, but there
is
also an academic license for $99 and a student license for $49.
I think Borland also offers some IDEs for Delphi.NET and C#.
--
The Internet combines the excitement of typing
with the reliability of anonymous hearsay.
tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com
31. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Hello again,
Chris Burch:
Just to remind...the original post with this topic name wasnt bashing Eu but
simply asking about support for the upcomming MS Vista. Rob seems to not have
a problem supporting that platform either, so i dont see any problems myself.
I support Eu in most ways and try to support ideas people have for programs
for it also. I see it's very useful myself and wouldnt care if it never
changed or updated ever again :) as i'll still be using it just as is. Some
people are just lazy and want the language to write the code all by itself :)
Instead, they should be creating libraries to do what they want it do to.
There's no program or language that does everything so sooner or later the
developer has to write his own code, and if it takes some work well that's that!
There's no language that's going to do everything in only three lines of code.
But anyway, somewhere along this topic turned into a little bashing, but that
wasnt the original intent so i just thought i would remind anyone reading this.
BTW, i've been using Euphoria for going on 10 years now! (2006 will be 10)
Don Cole:
Cant bind Edita? What kind of error are you getting?
Greg:
Hee hee, emotional connection...i wonder what they mean by that?
Ferlin:
QUOTE
Euphoria is worth 2 to 3 times that much in my book, so I think I'll just sit
back
and let Rob make the changes he wants to Euphoria, and not complain. :)
END QUOTE
Yes, that's an interesting thought...pricewise Euphoria starts to look even
better.
DB James (Quark):
Hi again, yes you should be able contact me by email...i havent been checking it
that much lately but i'll start again.
Brian Broker:
I had downloaded that Express Beta and wow, that thing bites! Couldnt build
ANY windows based programs without first creating a project in my purchased
Visual Studio (older version) and even that was only a console program.
Didnt try using it with C# however.
Take care,
Al
And, good luck with your Euphoria programming!
My bumper sticker: "I brake for LED's"
32. Re: Black Plague + Eu concerns
Ferlin Scarborough wrote:
>
> Could you purchase any of the .NET or other languages like VB or DELPHI, etc
> for around
> $40.00 like you can Euphoria?
>
> Euphoria is worth 2 to 3 times that much in my book, so I think I'll just sit
> back
> and let Rob make the changes he wants to Euphoria, and not complain. :)
>
I just want to say thanks to the community members that responded to this, I
found out some interesting and useful links, and also found out, there is a lot
more available for .NET, then there was when it first came out, back when I
looked at it.
Of course this happens with anything new, it starts out will little availabe and
more becomes available as it gets older.
Again thanks for the response, and I will be looking into some of these
resources.
Later.
Ferlin Scarborough
Learn To Program Games in Free Courses
Now contains an Introduction To Euphoria Programming Course At
http://www.gameuniv.net
My Euphoria Home Page
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/shadetreesoft
My Free Games Page
http://freewebtown.com/ferlin
