1. getting hardware data
- Posted by hacker May 22, 2012
- 1677 views
I want to prevent some software I've written being "illegally" distributed, and one way of doing this is to read some hardware specific info from the "legal" user's computer and save it. Since Eu has low-level routines, I know this must be possible, but just not sure how to do it. Any advice appreciated. I was thinking of maybe reading the serial number of the hard drive?
2. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1698 views
I want to prevent some software I've written being "illegally" distributed, and one way of doing this is to read some hardware specific info from the "legal" user's computer and save it. Since Eu has low-level routines, I know this must be possible, but just not sure how to do it. Any advice appreciated. I was thinking of maybe reading the serial number of the hard drive?
I'm surprised the std lib doesn't provide a function for this.
Search the forum for "hard drive serial number." You'll find a discussion or two about it, with code.
Also, this lib might work.
3. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by hacker May 22, 2012
- 1635 views
Thanks euphoric, I think that will do the trick!
4. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by bill May 22, 2012
- 1606 views
Mr Lester,
Isn't it a little retrograde?
Using open source software to produce closed source protected software?
And you just go ahead and say "this is how to do it"?
5. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 22, 2012
- 1597 views
And that's the beauty, and moral dilemma of open source software!
Chris
6. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1584 views
... I was thinking of maybe reading the serial number of the hard drive?
I'm surprised the std lib doesn't provide a function for this.
Really? Why is that, Chris?
7. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 22, 2012
- 1614 views
Heh,
Assuming you're replying to me Derek, the beauty of open source is that you can do whatever you want with it, the moral dilemma is should you.
(probably going to have a lot of huffing about what open source really is now, but never mind)
Chris
8. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by bill May 22, 2012
- 1626 views
(probably going to have a lot of huffing about what open source really is now, but never mind)
Chris
You and CK Lester as admins for an open source project.
Someone comes along and uses that project to not only
make a profit for themselves (OK) but make their product
closed source (dodgy) and protected (even more dodgy).
If I make contributions to Euphoria it is to an open-source
project. I understand people may want to use that software
for profit, and I don't have a problem with that.
I do have some problem with the program being closed source,
but that is a recognised user choice. I really think that
hardware dongles are far beyond what is acceptable.
Euphoric gave advice how to do this with no recognition that
the request was in any way out of order.
It's sheer exploitation on Hacker's part. No one gets paid for open-source development. feel that people are perfectly entitled to produce closed source protected software for profit using open source then I wonder how it is that you can j
9. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by mattlewis (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1583 views
Euphoric gave advice how to do this with no recognition that the request was in any way out of order.
I don't see how it was out of order at all.
It's sheer exploitation on Hacker's part. No one gets paid for open-source development. feel that people are perfectly entitled to produce closed source protected software for profit using open source then I wonder how it is that you can j
Yes, they are perfectly entitled to do that by euphoria's license. I'm fairly certain that I've spent more time developing euphoria (excepting Robert Craig, but then most of his time spent developing euphoria was before euphoria was open source 
), and I can say that I don't feel exploited at all by anyone producing closed source software with euphoria.
Matt
10. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1575 views
... I was thinking of maybe reading the serial number of the hard drive?
I'm surprised the std lib doesn't provide a function for this.
Really? Why is that, Chris?
I agree with Derek here.
I didn't realise that the C. in C.K. stood for Chris.
11. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1584 views
No one gets paid for open-source development.
As far as I know, that's true here, but it's most certainly not true of the open source world in general. (I've received job offers based on my work in FOSS before.)
I do have some problem with the program being closed source,
but that is a recognised user choice. I really think that
hardware dongles are far beyond what is acceptable.
I understand where you are coming from, and I'm inclined to agree with you. Still, a serial number stored in an NTFS filesystem is hardly a hardware dongle.
Euphoric gave advice how to do this with no recognition that
the request was in any way out of order.
It's sheer exploitation on Hacker's part.
There's a difference between the (imnsho very stupidly named) free (as in liberty) software movement and the open source software movement. The latter, as represented by ESR, seems open source simply as a means to an end and promotes OSS for economic and other apolitical reasons.
The former, embodied by the FSF, simply says access to the source code should be a fundamental right. The FSF goes as far as to refuse to use software that's not free (as in liberty) software altogether.
Considering the Euphoria community's long-standing position as a group that supported Euphoria as a closed source language, it makes sense that a lot of members - and especially the most senior members - are closer to the OSS camp than the FSF camp.
That said, the founder of the FSF would probably agree with the statements that you have made above.
feel that people are perfectly entitled to produce closed source protected software for profit using open source then I wonder how it is that you can j
This is old news. The FreeBSD team (or maybe it was the OpenBSD or NetBSD team) allowed their TCP/IP stack to be used by Microsoft for an early version of Windoze. Copycenter as opposed to copyleft.
12. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1569 views
Mr Lester,
Isn't it a little retrograde?
Using open source software to produce closed source protected software?
And you just go ahead and say "this is how to do it"?
Euphoria is provided as-is for use at-will. I don't assume people are going to do evil with it, and if they do, not my business. You have a technical question about using Euphoria, I'm OK with answering it. I'm not going to make each questioner reveal what he/she is going to do with the information I provide.
The OpenEuphoria group provides a programming language. We're not going to police the world making sure nobody uses it inappropriately. I'm not that desperately paranoid nor afraid (and it's certainly NOT IN MY JOB DESCRIPTION).
13. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1536 views
... I was thinking of maybe reading the serial number of the hard drive?
I'm surprised the std lib doesn't provide a function for this.
Really? Why is that, Chris?
Derek, was this directed toward me and my comment 'I'm surprised the standard lib...?' (As my name is Chris[topher].)
If so, the std lib is so comprehensive, I would have thought this simple functionality would be in there. However, I was wondering how it would apply to non-Windows OS-based PCs...
If not directed at me, then... uh... nevermind.
14. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 22, 2012
- 1556 views
Someone comes along and uses that project to not only
make a profit for themselves (OK) but make their product
closed source (dodgy) and protected (even more dodgy).
Closed source and protected is dodgy? How so?
Euphoric gave advice how to do this with no recognition that
the request was in any way out of order.
In what way could it be construed as out of order?
You have a seemingly strong desire to control/police others. That can't be healthy.
IANAP. YMMV.
15. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by bill May 22, 2012
- 1559 views
IANAP
I am not a psychiatrist.
You were not insulted, I am not trying to control people.
So what's with the snide remarks?
16. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by EUWX May 23, 2012
- 1555 views
Mr Lester,
Isn't it a little retrograde?
Using open source software to produce closed source protected software?
And you just go ahead and say "this is how to do it"?
Mr. A buys a low level software for $500, creates some nice application software and as a VAR sells it for $750 a copy.
Perfectly OK.
He also creates some nice application software and as a VAR sells it for $0 a copy.
Perfectly OK.
Mr. B buys a low level software for $5, creates some nice application software and as a VAR sells it for $750 a copy.
Perfectly OK.
He also creates some nice application software and as a VAR sells it for $0 a copy.
Perfectly OK.
Mr. C buys a low level software for $0, creates some nice application software and as a VAR sells it for $750 a copy.
That is also Perfectly OK.
He also creates some nice application software and as a VAR sells it for $0 a copy.
That is also Perfectly OK.
There is absolutely no relationship between the cost of a low-level development software and the price of an application software developed using that low level software.
17. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by jaygade May 23, 2012
- 1538 views
I fail to see the direct relationship between open source software and the authorized distribution of executable software. Isn't this already a solved problem?
18. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by bill May 23, 2012
- 1524 views
Look,
What I was saying is that it is inconsistent
to claim Open Euphoria is an open source project
if it allows closed source, hardware protected
distribution, and it promotes closed source.
I was not saying you can't do it.
Contributing to an open source project should give
the contributor some say in how that contribution is
used. The contributor should also be recognised for
the contribution made.
It is not about money. Free software never had to be
zero cost.
19. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1501 views
... I was thinking of maybe reading the serial number of the hard drive?
I'm surprised the std lib doesn't provide a function for this.
Really? Why is that, Chris?
Derek, was this directed toward me and my comment 'I'm surprised the standard lib...?'
Yes it was, CK.
Such a routine would be a wrapper around an API call and is thus relatively easy to create, upon the author doing a little research and testing. And I think that this routine in particular, would be nearly exclusively used in commercial software. So I'm not quite convinced that our unpaid work on this routine should be used to enhance another's bank balance. Instead, I'm pretty sure that commercial software should try to value-add with some of its own creativity and effort.
If such a routine would be of general value to the programming community, then that would be a different matter. For example, and I really don't know the answer to this, is this routine part of other languages' Standard Library?
20. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1617 views
If such a routine would be of general value to the programming community, then that would be a different matter. For example, and I really don't know the answer to this, is this routine part of other languages' Standard Library?
It's not in the Perl stdlib. It can be done, but it requires wrapping OLE from Perl and so on: http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=340212
A similar process is required to do this in Delphi: http://theroadtodelphi.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/how-obtain-the-source-of-the-wmi-data/
It's not in the Python stdlib, though someone wrote a 3rd party module for WMI: http://timgolden.me.uk/python/wmi/index.html
I can't find any information on how to do it in Ruby at all.
It seems that this can't be done in Java, period. If you want to use that informatino in Java code, you'll need to use JNI or call an external program to obtain it: http://www.coderanch.com/t/532384/java/java/hard-disk-serial-number-java
Visual Basic makes it easy to call WMI, but this still isn't in the stdlib: http://forums.codeguru.com/showthread.php?t=492661
VB provides more than one way to do this, however: http://www.vbgold.com/vb-projects/disk-serial-number.shtml Calling even this method a stdlib method seems like a bit of a stretch to me.
21. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1497 views
What I was saying is that it is inconsistent
to claim Open Euphoria is an open source project
if it allows closed source, hardware protected
distribution, and it promotes closed source.
We do not promote closed source, hardware protected distribution of Euphoria.
I was not saying you can't do it.
Of course, it can be done (look what happened with M$ and the BSD networking stack, or FreeBSD and Mac OS X), but that doesn't mean it was promoted.
Or are you trying to say that BSD is not open source?
Contributing to an open source project should give
the contributor some say in how that contribution is
used. The contributor should also be recognised for
the contribution made.
Agreed. Anyone who wants to contribute directly to Euphoria can do so under the BSD license. Third-party libraries not meant to be a hard of Euphoria can also be contributed to the Archives under any license the author feels comfortable with.
I'm not sure what the relevance here is to this thread, as the OP asked for some technical advice and euphoric answered. Neither attempted to directly contribute any code resulting out of that discussion into the language.
It is not about money. Free software never had to be
zero cost.
Agreed, and the overall moral argument that I believe you are making makes a lot of sense for FSF-style free software. (As distinguished from the open source software movement, of course.)
22. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by m_sabal May 23, 2012
- 1486 views
I don't usually get into these discussions, but I think there are some unhealthy opinions regarding open source that need to be addressed. While some may have political motivations for advocating open source software, the practical reason is that OSS is traded by barter rather than by cash. I will invest my time to improve the software in exchange for your time doing the same. Some niche markets, however, simply don't have enough users for the barter system to work (how many people on this list are writing CAD software to drive a garment pattern optimizer and stack cutter? anybody?) In those markets, the investment will have to be recovered monetarily rather than by an exchange in kind. The hardware licensing is necessary because most businesses are lazy rather than unethical. I have 10 new users that need this software tomorrow, but it will take a week to get the licensing arranged. Problem is, I never get around to actually licensing the additional copies. For some products, that can be over $100,000 of lost revenue that can easily be rectified by tying the license to a unique hardware attribute, like hard drive serial number or MAC address. The request seems perfectly natural to me. There's plenty of room in the world for parallel proprietary and open source solutions, and let the free market determine the winner.
23. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1482 views
I'm not quite convinced that our unpaid work on this routine should be used to enhance another's bank balance.
Well, your unpaid work on many, many other Euphoria routines is being used to enhance others' bank balances, so why is this particular routine unconvincing?
(Your unpaid work might also be helping terrorists around the world. Now what?)
24. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1483 views
I am not trying to control people.
Actually, yes you are, in a passive-aggressive way.
Regardless, you are not the Euphoria police. If you have an issue with a Q&A, state it plainly.
But to come at me like my daddy or boss is a little overzealous, IMHO.
25. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by mattlewis (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1477 views
(Your unpaid work might also be helping terrorists around the world. Now what?)
I suppose it's time to implement std/unmanned_drone.e.
Matt
26. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1487 views
Such a routine would be a wrapper around an API call and is thus relatively easy to create, upon the author doing a little research and testing.
Do we not wrap any other API calls in the standard libs or as built-ins?
Is one of the considerations of routine inclusion whether or not users can do it themselves with a little research and testing?
27. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1467 views
I'm not quite convinced that our unpaid work on this routine should be used to enhance another's bank balance.
Well, your unpaid work on many, many other Euphoria routines is being used to enhance others' bank balances, so why is this particular routine unconvincing?
Those other routines also contribute to FOSS work (and possibly Derek's own wallet).
The key point here is that this particular routine doesn't seem to contribute to anything else. At least, if it can be used as such, no one has suggested a possible use.
(Your unpaid work might also be helping terrorists around the world. Now what?)
That unpaid work might also be helping those fighting the terrorists.
28. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1478 views
Such a routine would be a wrapper around an API call and is thus relatively easy to create, upon the author doing a little research and testing.
Do we not wrap any other API calls in the standard libs or as built-ins?
Yes. Sockets, sound(), message box support, etc...
Is one of the considerations of routine inclusion whether or not users can do it themselves with a little research and testing?
Yes.
Of course, there are other considerations (how generic is the routine, how often is it likely to be used, is it easy to do wrong, etc).
29. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by bill May 23, 2012
- 1477 views
I am not trying to control people.
Actually, yes you are, in a passive-aggressive way.
Regardless, you are not the Euphoria police. If you have an issue with a Q&A, state it plainly.
But to come at me like my daddy or boss is a little overzealous, IMHO.
Euphoric:
You get called out on something and immediately you go snarky and abusive.
Stop the personal attacks.
If, personally, you want to tell people how to produce protected software
that is your business.
If you claim that an Open Source project should provide libraries to make it
easy to produce closed-source hardware protected software then you should
expect some criticism.
As an admin you are representing the Euphoria community.
Finally:
You will notice that many people on this site are claiming I am wrong. I
am OK with that as long as it is not personal. I can be wrong (though I
don't think I am in this case).
Getting jumped on is a perennial problem on this forum. One comes to expect
it.
Bill
30. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by mattlewis (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1458 views
You get called out on something and immediately you go snarky and abusive.
I speak from experience when I say that euphoric's default mode is snarky (it's mine, too 
).
But what do you mean here by, "called out?" The only thing I see is that you disagreed with him (and possibly others, though not exactly in the same way).
Matt
31. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by euphoric (admin) May 23, 2012
- 1449 views
You get called out on something...
It's not appropriate to "call out" somebody in this forum. Maybe privately, but even then, in this particular case, nothing needed to be said.
If, personally, you want to tell people how to produce protected software
that is your business.
And it's none of yours, right?
If you claim that an Open Source project should provide libraries to make it
easy to produce closed-source hardware protected software then you should
expect some criticism.
I never claimed that any project should provide anything.
You will notice that many people on this site are claiming I am wrong. I
am OK with that as long as it is not personal.
The way you "called me out" was personal, wasn't it?
32. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) May 23, 2012
- 1436 views
So, the C in C.K. stands for Chris then. Damn, illusion ruined, always thought it stood for Calvin Klein.
Chris
PS, there is quite a bit of work going on in the RC modelling world with Arduinos and GPS units to create unmanned drones for RC model planes, so if there was a std/unmanned_drone.e lib, I would be interested!
Chris
33. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by hacker May 28, 2012
- 1361 views
(probably going to have a lot of huffing about what open source really is now, but never mind)
Chris
You and CK Lester as admins for an open source project.
Someone comes along and uses that project to not only
make a profit for themselves (OK) but make their product
closed source (dodgy) and protected (even more dodgy).
If I make contributions to Euphoria it is to an open-source
project. I understand people may want to use that software
for profit, and I don't have a problem with that.
I do have some problem with the program being closed source,
but that is a recognised user choice. I really think that
hardware dongles are far beyond what is acceptable.
Euphoric gave advice how to do this with no recognition that
the request was in any way out of order.
It's sheer exploitation on Hacker's part. No one gets paid for open-source development. feel that people are perfectly entitled to produce closed source protected software for profit using open source then I wonder how it is that you can j
Wow, what did I start here?
Bill, in the first place, I'm a long time user of Euphoria and paid subscriptions for many years before Eu became open-source. Secondly, suppose I were donating to Euphoria or contributing to its development, would it be ok to "exploit" then? the irritating thing is that you assumed I was doing no such thing, regardless of the moral issue. Thirdly, I haven't made any profit from the software, which isn't for sale, and in fact I only made it available for free to a few people, I wanted to prevent it from being distributed to all and sundry for reasons I won't go into.
sheesh...
34. Re: getting hardware data
- Posted by EUWX May 28, 2012
- 1320 views
(probably going to have a lot of huffing about what open source really is now, but never mind)
Chris
You and CK Lester as admins for an open source project.
Someone comes along and uses that project to not only
make a profit for themselves (OK) but make their product
closed source (dodgy) and protected (even more dodgy).
If I make contributions to Euphoria it is to an open-source
project. I understand people may want to use that software
for profit, and I don't have a problem with that.
I do have some problem with the program being closed source,
but that is a recognised user choice. I really think that
hardware dongles are far beyond what is acceptable.
Euphoric gave advice how to do this with no recognition that
the request was in any way out of order.
It's sheer exploitation on Hacker's part. No one gets paid for open-source development. feel that people are perfectly entitled to produce closed source protected software for profit using open source then I wonder how it is that you can j
I think you have a big problem understanding what Open Source Licenses are.
There are various types and levels; some are more permissive than others, regarding the usage, e.g.
1. Use it to create your own executables and distribute it free with the same license;
2. Use it to create your own executables and distribute it free and give your source and the original source code to the end user;
3. Use it to create your own executables and charge for it but give your source and the original source code to the end user;
4. Use it to create your own executables and charge for it but give only the original source code to the end user;
5. Use it to create your own executables and charge for it but alert the end user to the original software used to create your product;
6. Use it completely for home and personal use only;
7. Use it for personal and commercial use unrestricted, but do not sell your own created application;
8. Use it totally unrestricted.
It is quite obvious that you have not used "Open source" software from other sources to realize the differences in Licenses.
If you want to contribute to Euphoria or to any Open Source project, YOU as the contributor have to know what the rules are and then decide whether to contribute or not. There is no point in attacking the current moderators and developers. You join an organization accepting their rules first, and then try to change from within or not join at all.
The insane criticism you have showered will hopefully be stopped by the authorities here.
