Re: [OT]: Spot poll: pre-win95 and pre-pentium
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[Please excuse words missing or misued in this post. It was typed in a royal
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Hello everyone!
Since Kat mentioned me, 
, I figured I'd better shift out of lurker mode to
respond to this one.
As you may have guessed, I am primarily a Linux user, although I do have my
system in a dual boot situation with Windows XP Home Edition. As another
member of the list I correspond with on occasion has found, I spend most of
my time in Linux; Windows is used only when a) my wife and kids want on the
computer (although they are quickly beginning to understand and even like
Linux), and b) on those **EXTREMELY** rare occasions that I am using an
application that does not have a suitable counterpart in Linux (Photosuite
for instance).
Now then, you may be shocked to learn that I am not one of those "extremist
Penguinistas" that want nothing more than to see Bill Gates swinging from his
favorite tree on a long rope. Nor do I go on those fanatical anti-M$ trips,
where I go plot with those in the darkened corners of Linuxland in order to
have a nuke accidentally dropped on Redmond. Microsoft has, frankly, gotten
to be what it is not because of Gates' programming prowess, but rather
because he's a 20th century J. P. Morgan who has mastered the American art of
big business and economic manipulation. But for those who believe that
Microsoft will be around forever, may I bring to mind the Roman Empire? Any
look in computer and technical publications, as well as (on occasion) the
national news, demonstrates that the Vandals are knocking at the city gates.
(No pun intended ... uh ... I think.) The fatal mistake, I think, is that
Microsoft has grown so big, and so fat, that it can't remember the people
that got it where it is, but only remembers their wallets. Having placed
this business-sized envelope firnly against my forehead, el Swamii Travis
predicts that within ten years Microsoft (and Windows), will either not
exist, or will have blown away all the outer kruft it has collected, and will
then be doing things the right way: compete head-for-head against the
*Nixes, depending on a revamped an exceptional version of Windows instead of
depending upon the courts and mutual exclusion clauses in its contracts with
OEMs.
Bluntly put, if Microsoft quit dicking around with under-the-table rules,
exorbitant profits, and instead focused on developing a quality (and
affordable!) product ... a completely re-engineered Windows from the
bottom-up which made use of newer paradigms and even some *Nix concepts, I
think Windows could stage quite a comeback, no doubt outshining the eminate
return of Amiga-DOS (thanks Derek for that info ... any word on Apple DOS?).
Enough with that ...
> > I Mullins wrote:
> > > Philip Deets wrote:
> > > > Now I'm starting to get curious about what Linux is really like. Can
> > > > I use Linux on the same computer as Windows XP? If I do, will it
> > > > make me choose which OS to load each time I boot?
> > >
> > > Yes, you can dual boot XP and Linux with no problem.
> > > You will have a menu to choose which to boot, but you can
> > > set either one to be the default which will boot automatically
> > > (after x seconds) if you fail to make a choice.
> > >
> > > Linux can see and use the Windows directories without any problem,
> > > so you can move, edit, delete files, graphics, etc. (but not run
> > > Windows
> > >
> > > programs, usually. Some will run with wine.)
Hi, Irv. One caveat to mention. I use Mandrake 9.1, and this may have been
fixed in 9.2, but Linux does have issues where working with NTFS file systems
are concerned. I have found that from Linux, I can see the Windows XP NTFS
partition, and I can copy files over to ext3, but I cannot move files from
Linux into Windows. To get around this, I have a FAT32 parition that I use
as a transfer point between the two operating systems.
Where WINE is concerned, it's a good concept, but I've never actually gotten
it to work, myself. That isn't saying much, as I'm still a Linux newbie.
However, with the continuing advancement of Linux, I've found that with very
rare exceptions, I've found no reason to use a Windows app in Linux anyhow.
<snip>
> > Linux.org says I have to partition my drive to install Linux. Also, if
> > I want a nice installer, they said it costs 30-50 dollars. I think I'll
> > just stick with Windows.
Hmm ... I don't know what that is all about. Perhaps they are referring to a
nice boot manager? As someone else posted in the forum, I had no problems
with installing Linux on my system. The mandrake distribution even comes
with a partitioning tool you can use during the installation. A few days
ago, I had to reinstall both Windows and Linux, since my *new* hard drive
decided to go into early retirement. After I had XP installed, I used the
PartitionDrake to resize my Windows partition, then create my Linux partition
and swap partition. This was all done successfully.
The eleventh commandment: THOU SHALT BACK UP THY DATA BEFORE FIDDLING WITH
THY PARTITIONS.
> Yeas, $30 - $50 for an OS that works beats $100+ for winblow$ any day.
Last time I looked, Mandrake was freely downloadable off the internet (if you
can handle downloading 3 650M iso images), or the official Mandrake box
package is around $50. Red Hat Linux, which I wouldn't especially recommend,
is about $70 and can be found at Staples, Office Depot, etc.
> > Besides, I know in the earlier versions of Windows, there were lots of
> > crashes.
>
> <cough> i usually go 2 to 3 weeks tween reboots with win95b, and i pick the
> time and day for them. Maybe you were not configured properly.
I'd have to agree with Kat on this one. Back years ago, when I was running
Windows '95 on an old 486, I found it very difficult to take down the whole
system. When I bought my current computer in 2001, it came preloaded with
Windows ME. I found ME to be absolutely HORRID, eventually getting to the
point that I was having to reboot once every couple of hours. It was during
that time that I happened to eye Mandrake Linux 7.2 on the shelf at Walmart,
and decided to give it a whirl. I've been hooked ever since.
I find the only time I have to reboot Linux is when, of course, I need to
switch to Windows. Never have I ever had a misbehaving app take down the
system, or even make it so unstable that I couldn't switch terminals, log
into root, and kill the offender. I have had apps take out XWindow and KDE
(unlike Windows, the graphical desktop and the core system are two distinct
entities), but again, it didn't force me to reboot, only give the
three-finger salute to XWindows and restart it.
> > I have only seen Windows XP crash once, and it recovered
> > nicely when I rebooted and even allowed me to optionally send Microsoft
> > an error report. It does freeze occasionally, but it normally recovers
> > if I push a hot key to start a program.
You got off very lucky. While, as an operating system, XP is better than ME
(and by the way, Derek, I've got XP Home Edition running on a three year old
system, albeit one remodeled with some extra RAM). However, '98 or even '95
is much more stable than XP, and if given the choice, I'd opt for '98 before
XP any day. Then why do I have XP? One word: curiosity.
When I first got XP, I activated it as "requested" by the system. I then
tried to update it, at which point it decided that my authorization key was
not correct. It then, in a nutshell, summarily wrecked my system, doing the
most damage, oddly enough, to non-Microsoft applications. In fact, the
damage was so vast, I couldn't even get the restore disk which came with the
computer to work until I zeroed out the hard drive. Had I not done a backup
before I installed XP, I probably would have thrown the computer out the
window (no pun intended again ... uh ... I think). Judging by what I've seen
first-hand, in part due to this incident, Windows wanting to get onto the
internet without prior permission for no obvious reason, and articles from
other credible sources, I don't want to have any sensitive material in
Windows, either. My addressbooks and email is all done in Linux. (See also
the "virus" paragraph below.) I certainly don't have any bank account
numbers in Windows, nor do I have the launch sequence code for the tactical
nuclear missile I strapped under my truck to defer rude drivers in
Minneapolis.
What this says to me is that if Microsoft detects something it doesn't like on
your system, consider it toast. In other words, by installing Windows, you
make your system answerable to the little people with thick glasses in
Washington state. Is what Microsoft is doing in that regard legal? I
imagine so based upon the barely intelligable fine print and doublespeak in
their EULA. Is it a darn good way to lose a customer? I imagine that to be
the case to, considering the not-so-fine transcript of what I yelled at the
computer during the incident in question.
Another reason that I prefer Linux is security issues. In the past year, I
can think of several really nasty viruses, some of which have actually made
it as attachments onto *this* forum: SoBig.F, Nachi, MSBlaster, Swen.A, and
now, MyDoom. None of these affected Linux. Few of them would have affected
Windows either, had the Windows engineers not made so many ... well,
ill-advised ... decisions. In defense of Windows, two points need to be
made. First, as Windows is unarguably the most used operating system on the
planet, it goes without saying that it makes the optimum target for virus
writers. If the roles were reversed, and Linux was the major system with
Windows as the snotty upstart, then I'm sure most virii would be geared
toward Linux. Secondly, it is a common misconception, many times shamelessly
propogated by Penguinistas, that there are no Linux virii. Yes, there are
worms, trojans, etc., that can propogate in a Linux system, but it is a lot
harder to write one for Linux.
Without firewalls, anti-virus scanners, etc., Windows is a virus host waiting
to happen. For more information about why, please take a look at the Gibson
Research Corporation (http://www.grc.com/default.htm). As my other Euphorian
friend will attest to, my firewall dropped for about 3 minutes one day, and
in that time ... only THREE minutes, I had managed to get the Nachi virus.
In addition, we've all seen how easily these virii can take you data and run
with it. Considering how Microsoft wants to make Windows an extension of the
internet, and have every machine linked into a collective hive of
"application subscription" servers, keeping data secure in Windows will
become (if it isn't already) about as tough as getting Janet Jackson to keep
her shirt on. (Like Windows, keep in mind that was simply a costume
malfunction.)
And finally, I got Windows XP for $99 online through Walmart. What I got was
the basic operating system, Notepad, Internet Express, Outlook Express
(without spell checker), and a calculator. Oh yeah, and a couple of games.
No word processor (for that, you'll need to by Microsoft Word for $150.) No
programming languages ... not even QBasic. (For that, you'll need Visual
Studio, for about $300.) And the applications I had under Windows ME were,
for the most part, broken after the install ... including Microsoft Works,
Microsoft Money, Eudora, etc.
I got Mandrake 8.0 for $50'ish from Office Depot. I then downloaded 9.1, and
I'll be buying 9.2. (I typically purchase even releases, and download odd
ones.) I got two different word processors, not including the entire office
suite (OpenOffice), at LEAST four different programming languages, five
different email clients to choose from, six different windows managers. In
addition to this, I got enough games to open my own arcade.
And I could go on and on ... the point is, it's worth trying out. Does Linux
have its downfalls? Sure, it does. Installing applications can be tricky,
hardware compability is less than desireable at times (although this is
changing rapidly.) Learning Linux as opposed to learning DOS can be
bewildering. But Linux is worth trying out, and if you grow a liking for it,
then learning it will not be all that hard.
Mr. Deets, your computer is your computer, and the choice is up to you, of
course. 
I would suggest you give Linux a try. Make sure your Windows
data is backed up, and your system is defragged, then after a little work
with the partitions, you can install Linux easily. Or, as was suggested, you
can always try it out using Knoppix. And remember, Euphoria works in Linux!
(This is a *Euphoria* forum, remember?! lol) I wouldn't worry about the $50
gadget just yet ... the tools that come with the distribution, such as lilo,
work just fine for me. If you want, send me your address privately, and I
could even burn copies of my Mandrake 9.1 CDs and send them too you. (Yes,
with Linux, that is PERFECTLY legal. (Unless you talk to that Darl McBride
nitwit.))
I'm going to try to attach a screen shot of my Linux desktop. Last time I
tried to send that to the forum, it didn't work, but maybe I'll get lucky.
>
> Hey Travis, are you still here?
>
> Kat
Yes ma'am, I certainly am. Sorry I don't talk near as much as I used to, but
I've got one of those "the job is your life" situations going on at the
moment. (Folks, I code in my spare time. Otherwise, I build the kitchen
cabinets for RVs and put holes in myself with screwguns.) I still do quite a
bit of coding in Euphoria, however, I also work a lot with C++ and Java,
simply because those languages *might* help me in one day landing a software
development job, which, fortunately, typically doesn't include flesh-ripping
screwguns. Well, yeah, you'd be amazed what you can find in Perl. Anyway, I
am still here, Kat. Are you still there?
Time for a nap. Have a wonderful day/night, all!
Take care,
Travis W. Beaty
Osage, Iowa.
--
You are an excellent tactician, Captain. You let your second in
command attack while you sit and watch for weakness.
-- Khan Noonian Singh, "Space Seed", stardate 3141.9
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