1. Moving on...
- Posted by Peter Willems <peter at integratedmoves.com> Aug 13, 2003
- 532 views
I've made the decision... As I stated before here on the list I was looking around for a language that could replace our current development environment. I was seriously hopeing that Euphoria would be it as I really like it and was drawn in to it almost instantly when I found it. However, after some small tests I've come to the conclusion that Eu is currently not up to the task. I must agree with several people here now that several areas (like GUI libraries) are to much a fragmented effort and therefor it seems to me that none of the available libraries can perform in a production environment. An example: I was building the user interface for the universal IDE with win32lib and found that certain icons on buttons where not showing during runtime, but it's completely random which icons where showing or not across several runs. As I need a *stable* system NOW (for my company), Euphoria and the available libraries don't perform as needed. I know my example looks trivial, but for contract work this little thing is already a big issue. This does not mean that I'm giving up on Euphoria completely. I will keep on testing it and see if I can use it for small personal projects for now. I will also remain participating here on the list. Just for info, I've decided to go Java for my company. Although I actually HATE Java as a language (I don't like OO programming either), it will give us a widely supported platform that has proven itself capable of handling very large business applications. Also the availability of a very professional IDE (www.eclipse.org) has influenced my decision. In addition to that, most hevy-weight databases have a JDBC driver available and are completely maintainable from the IDE. There's more, but these are the most important points for my decisions. I really hope that Euphoria will step up to be a viable platform for development of serious applications. I know for sure that the actual development in Eu is much faster then in most other languages, including Java. Hans Peter Willems
2. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Aug 13, 2003
- 494 views
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:45:49 +0000 (08/13/03 21:45:49) , Peter Willems <peter at integratedmoves.com> wrote: > > > I've made the decision... [big snip] I do agree with all your sentiments. Basically, Euphoria is not yet ready for commercial applications. It is *so* close but I couldn't rely on apps written in Euphoria to be robust. And as you mention, general development time is greatly reduced with Euphoria. I'm not giving up on it yet either. The main problems, IMHO... ** No crash clean up routine. ** No easy access to GUI, Databases, Internet development. Currently we must either do these from first principles or use unoffical libraries that are still in development. This is similar to starting with a C compiler without access to commercial libraries. ** Not many trained developers available. (This is a minor issue as learning Eu is very fast). -- cheers, Derek Parnell
3. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net Aug 13, 2003
- 509 views
----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Getz" <Xaxo at aol.com> > More small improvements will help though i'm sure. > Maybe we should start a 'wish list' for 2.5 to submit to Rob now? > > Top of my list is 'reuseable include files'. > > Take care for now, > Al Multi-process execution / thread capable... Multi-process execution / thread capable... Multi-process execution / thread capable... [Goto] [label] inside proc / func possibly an EXIT sequence expected_var expected_var = {1,2} procedure proc(var) :init_label if var = expected_var[1] then GOTO first_label elsif var = expected_var[2] then GOTO second_label else GOTO init_label end if :first_label "Well, Im in the first_label now" EXIT :second_label "Well, Im in the second_label now" EXIT -- you'll argue the point that I would continuosly loop if (var) isnt either of -- the (expected_var) sequence. Answer, (var) could be an in ram pointer -- that is changed....IF we had multi-process control. end procedure I dont need 1000 explanations on how to make this work in Euphoria now, just making a generalized statment.... Euman
4. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by "C. K. Lester" <cklester at yahoo.com> Aug 14, 2003
- 503 views
An opinion from an experienced neophyte: > Python > Perl > Ruby Having looked at Python and Ruby, I'd say Ruby is the contender. However, it's not a contender enough to make me stray from EUPHORIA. > 3. Rob wouldn't likely starve if he made Eu open source. Making EUPHORIA open source would probably be a project management nightmare. I don't know if Rob does this fulltime or not... I would expect he does it at least half full-time. :) And what happens when people start adding their own stupid crap to it, like "goto," "iterators," "0-based indexing," and tons of other cumbersome poopie? I know there'd be a standard, but I fear a mutiny!!! :)
5. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 14, 2003
- 508 views
I wonder, who is keeping track of these comments for OE? I suspect many of the ideas showing up here would be very useful. jbrown On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 09:40:18AM -0500, C. K. Lester wrote: > > > An opinion from an experienced neophyte: > > > Python > > Perl > > Ruby > > Having looked at Python and Ruby, I'd say Ruby is the contender. However, > it's not a contender enough to make me stray from EUPHORIA. > > > 3. Rob wouldn't likely starve if he made Eu open source. > > Making EUPHORIA open source would probably be a project management > nightmare. I don't know if Rob does this fulltime or not... I would expect > he does it at least half full-time. :) > > And what happens when people start adding their own stupid crap to it, like > "goto," "iterators," "0-based indexing," and tons of other cumbersome > poopie? I know there'd be a standard, but I fear a mutiny!!! :) > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > > -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
6. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by Dan Moyer <DANIELMOYER at prodigy.net> Aug 14, 2003
- 502 views
Matt, Could you give some detail on the mods you've made to your copy of MakeDoc.exw? I ask because although I've been temporarily side-tracked, I was (& intend to return to) making an "editor" intended to make it easy to add the slash-tag style commenting to any existing library, so MakeDoc can use that library to create the htm doc. Idea is for library creator not to have to concern themselves with the slash-tags, just fill out a "form" for each global intended for library user use. Dan Moyer From: Matt Lewis > > From: Peter Willems > > Al Getz wrote: > > > It's true that development goes faster when there is more > > > then one person working on something, but the thing is, > > > does everyone really want to work on the same exact project? > > > > I think that other projects are showing that it can work this > > way. I do think that more people would like to participate IF > > they actually knew that they could. I think that some form of > > project management (through a community site) would help much > > to attract participants in the first place. > > I think it's important to remember that a 'project team' isn't synonymous > with 'coders' (I know that Peter and Derek are posting with this in mind). > Even simple help with documentation can dramatically raise the quality of a > project. I strongly recommend using the makedoc utility that comes with > Win32Lib (I've made a lot of modifications to my copy). It makes the > process a lot less painful. Since I've started using it religiously, I > think my documentation has seen huge improvements (I'd rate most of it at > poor to fair now :). One thing that's always a turnoff to me is a short > readme.txt file saying to look at the comments in the file to see how > everything works. Please use some sort of doc generator (like the > above-mentioned makedoc.exw) that pulls those comments out into an HTML file > or something. The easier and more user friendly your projects, the better > they'll be received. It's always worth delaying a day to release if you > spend the time documenting everything. Plus testers and demo writers are a > lot of help. > > One problem, as Al alludes, is that many projects cover a fairly narrow > spectrum of interest. There may be only 2 or 3 people even remotely > interested in a project in the Euphoria community. Unless its something you > feel very passionate about, without interest and feedback from others, you > *will* lose interest in any project. This often leads others to believe > that the project is dead. They don't inquire about it, seeing that it's > very incomplete and inactive, and so the developer never regains interest in > it. It's a chicken and the egg scenario in some respects. > > > > > Usually this isnt the case unless there is some concrete > > > reward, even if it's small. Most people i think do what they > > > do because they really want to do it, not because they are > > > getting paid > > > > Agreed. But I'm sure there are more people that would like > > to help, just for the fun of it. > > We actually have a reward system. No one's going to get rich off the > MicroEconomy, but it's a great way to recognize the efforts of others, not > to mention encourage them. Personally, I feel it to be a responsibility to > put my votes in (just like voting in real elections). I don't always vote > for things that I actually have a use for, but often for projects that seem > interesting to me for one reason or another. I hope that the votes help > motivate the authors to continue to develop. > > Matt Lewis > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! >
7. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by "C. K. Lester" <cklester at yahoo.com> Aug 14, 2003
- 500 views
> The problem, of course, is that hardly anyone wants > to buy a book about Euphoria. The first step would be > to determine why that is true. I suspect that the first person out of the gate with a good EUPHORIA book is going to start a trend that will only be good for RDS. I can see the book in my mind, but I gotta have time... Irv, you got time, dontcha?! :)
8. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by Dan Moyer <DANIELMOYER at prodigy.net> Aug 15, 2003
- 499 views
Matt, thanks, I'll look at the EuSQL docs & source. Dan Moyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Lewis" <matthewwalkerlewis at yahoo.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: RE: Moving on... > > > > From: Dan Moyer [mailto:DANIELMOYER at prodigy.net] > > > Could you give some detail on the mods you've made to your copy of > > MakeDoc.exw? > > > > I ask because although I've been temporarily side-tracked, I > > was (& intend > > to return to) making an "editor" intended to make it easy to add the > > slash-tag style commenting to any existing library, so > > MakeDoc can use that > > library to create the htm doc. Idea is for library creator > > not to have to > > concern themselves with the slash-tags, just fill out a > > "form" for each > > global intended for library user use. > > First, I added some categories in addition to proc/func etc to match what I > needed. Take a look at the docs for EuSQL. I changed the font and > background colors. I also added a feature to allow categories to have > parents and children, so you could navigate through sub/super categories in > the docs, and only categories without parents show up in the TOC. I just > added a /parent tag. Take a look at the source and docs for EDB for > examples of using this. I can post my copy of makedoc.exw, too, since it's > changed a bit from the current, plus my version is from before the > pre-multi-file mods. > > Matt Lewis > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! >
9. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de> Aug 16, 2003
- 480 views
Ray Smith wrote: <snip> > An "EU Community" has very little hope of developing past the current > mailing list. > People who decide to do major contributions to projects and then give > it all away will almost always decide to do it on 100% open source > projects. Not inevitable. > Why would anyone put huge amounts of effort into helping develop Eu > furthur (i.e. by writing doco, libraries, apps, etc) when the core is > closed and is only being "very slowly" developed and 100% controlled > by 1 person??? Maybe because s/he likes the language so much? I only can guess. There _are_ people who actually do major contributions. I'm sure they can say, why they do so. If I had the capability, I surely also would do so. > ok a few people contribute (I was one of them) but compared to other > languages very few. There is a considerable amout of contributions in the RDS archive. > Closed source products (i.e. Euphoria, Microsoft products etc) are > made by people who want to make money. Making money is not evil by itself. (Send 20$ for more info. SCNR) > Open Source products (i.e. Perl, Python, Ruby) are made by people who > want to make great products. Generally speaking: What do you think, how many people I have seen in my life, who _wanted_ to make good things. Please believe me, wanting to make good things, is completely different from _actually doing_ good things ... > That's why these open source languages can now compete with the best > closed source languages that the biggest companies (with huge > amounts) of money develop. Certainly there are some good open source languages, but I don't think any open source language is good, just _because_ it's open source. If we want to understand, what prerequisites are necessary to develop a good programming language, we must go a bit more in detail I believe. <snip> > The only thing that will make Euphoria more popular is for it to > become open source. I disagree. For instance, more advertising would also make Euphoria more popular. This "What will make Euphoria more popular?" discussion arises here from time to time. Interestingly, I've never seen, that Rob participates in this discussion. Maybe this isn't an issue for him at all? <snip> > Talented people, I mean really talented people (I'm by no means > including myself!!!) just aren't going to jump into the Euphoria > community and write high class libs utils doco etc. It's just not > going to happen. Hmm?? I _do_ see some talented people in this community, actually doing great contributions. > All of these poeple are over using Perl, Python and > Ruby etc having a great time. Open Source is like a light that > flicks on in your head, when it turns on you just can't imagine why > you didn't understand it before, or why others can't see what you see! That's actually a good description of how I feel with Euphoria. > If Euphoria is doing everything you want to it do now, then great, > if you'd like it to other things and you yourself aren't able to, or > not willing to do it, then don't hold your breath! That looks like a real judgement of Solomon. > Ray Smith > http://rays-web.com Best regards, Juergen -- /"\ ASCII ribbon campain | "Everything should be made as simple \ / against HTML in | as possible, but not simpler." X e-mail and news, | / \ and unneeded MIME | [Albert Einstein]
10. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 16, 2003
- 481 views
On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 12:02:38PM +0000, Ray Smith wrote: > An "EU Community" has very little hope of developing past the current > mailing list. > > People who decide to do major contributions to projects and then give > it all away will almost always decide to do it on 100% open source > projects. > > Why would anyone put huge amounts of effort into helping develop Eu > furthur (i.e. by writing doco, libraries, apps, etc) when the core is > closed and is only being "very slowly" developed and 100% controlled > by 1 person??? > > ok a few people contribute (I was one of them) but compared to other > languages very few. There is the OpenEuphoria movement. Why has no one even mentioned that? There is working being done on making a compatible open source core for those librarys ... if what you say is true then when this is done the OE community will become very popular quickly. However, while there was a lot of initial interest, the movement has slowed quite a bit. Apparently there isn't a huge amount of interest in having Euphora Open source after all... (I'll still try to write one, of course, simply because I find it an interesting project. As do many other open source coders.) jbrown -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
11. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 17, 2003
- 486 views
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 12:08:44AM +0000, Ray Smith wrote: jbrown105 at speedymail.org wrote: > There is the OpenEuphoria movement. Why has no one even mentioned that? > There is working being done on making a compatible open source core for > those librarys ... if what you say is true then when this is done the OE > community will become very popular quickly. Yes, I think if an Open Source Euphoria existed, this would become the building blocks of many great additions which would make Euphoria far far more popular. I'd be back to programming Euphoria full time if an Open Source Euphoria existed. Well I'm working on it. (An open source OE translator, working on the runtime library atm.) > However, while there was a lot of initial interest, the movement has > slowed > quite a bit. Apparently there isn't a huge amount of interest in having > Euphora Open source after all... I haven't seen any real progress with OpenEU in almost a year. At the current rate it looks like it would take up to 5 years to get even close to the current "offifical Euphoria". It might be too late in 5 years for it to make a difference??? The interest on OE died a bit with the dropping of PEU (which is not really true even - my runtime lib "borrows" a great deal of code from PEU, tho it is considerably cleaned up). I'm hoping, when I finish my translator, it will rise up again. (But right now I'm using my "made up" OE specs, since Derek and CChris havent produced me an official OE standard v0.1 yet -- but no rush guys ;) Ray Smith http://rays-web.com jbrown, tired TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
12. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de> Aug 17, 2003
- 496 views
Peter Willems wrote: <snip> > The fact that some great languages are Open Source does not mean > that only Open Source languages are good. I totally agree. And it also doesn't mean, that all Open Source languages are automatically good, just because they are Open Source. > There are many non > Open Source languages as well that are very good. Yep. <snip> >> If Euphoria's income isn't doing that, then I'm saying there are some >> really strong arguements to make Euphoria open source. > > But there are also arguments to keep it proprietary. There is > a very important reason that Sun is not releasing Java into > Open Source and I think it is for keeping a standard. I think, this might be an important point regarding Euphoria, too. On the one hand, many poeple (including myself) would like to have this and that option added to Euphoria. On the other hand, AFAIK every Eu programmer likes the clear and clean syntax of Euphoria. If too many "bells and whistles" would be added to Euphoria, probably the syntax soon wouldn't be clear and clean any more. <snip> Regards, Juergen -- /"\ ASCII ribbon campain | \ / against HTML in | This message has been ROT-13 encrypted X e-mail and news, | twice for higher security. / \ and unneeded MIME |
13. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 17, 2003
- 483 views
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 10:00:16AM +0000, Peter Willems wrote: > > If Euphoria's income isn't doing that, then I'm saying there are some > > really strong arguements to make Euphoria open source. > > But there are also arguments to keep it proprietary. There is > a very important reason that Sun is not releasing Java into > Open Source and I think it is for keeping a standard. Of course, you can look at Python or Perl. Both are open source, both have well established standards. Also, Python has 2 implementations last time I checked (original Python in C and Jython, the Java version of Python) and a third (Python in C#) was being planned. And yet the Python standard stays intact. As does the language. So, perhaps the reason Java isnt open source has nothing to do with keeping it a standard after all... (or at best, if that is a reason, its a misguided one imho). -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
14. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by Christian.CUVIER at agriculture.gouv.fr Aug 18, 2003
- 479 views
> From: jbrown105 at speedymail.org > Subject: Re: Moving on... > > > On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 12:08:44AM +0000, Ray Smith wrote: > >> >> jbrown105 at speedymail.org wrote: >> > >> > There is the OpenEuphoria movement. Why has no one even mentioned that? >> > There is working being done on making a compatible open source core for >> > those librarys ... if what you say is true then when this is done the OE >> > community will become very popular quickly. > >> >> Yes, I think if an Open Source Euphoria existed, this would become the >> building blocks of many great additions which would make Euphoria far >> far more popular. I'd be back to programming Euphoria full time if >> an Open Source Euphoria existed. > > > Well I'm working on it. (An open source OE translator, working on the runtime > library atm.) > > >> > However, while there was a lot of initial interest, the movement has >> > slowed >> > quite a bit. Apparently there isn't a huge amount of interest in having >> > Euphora Open source after all... > >> >> I haven't seen any real progress with OpenEU in almost a year. At the >> current rate it looks like it would take up to 5 years to get even >> close to the current "offifical Euphoria". It might be too late in 5 >> years for it to make a difference??? >> Ray, I'm sure that, if you joined the OE effort, the 5 years span wouod narrow down to a manageable 2 or 3 years ! Step in ! > > The interest on OE died a bit with the dropping of PEU (which is not really > true > even - my runtime lib "borrows" a great deal of code from PEU, tho it is > considerably cleaned up). > > I'm hoping, when I finish my translator, it will rise up again. (But right now > I'm using my "made up" OE specs, since Derek and CChris havent produced me > an official OE standard v0.1 yet -- but no rush guys ;) > Quite a few descriptions of aspects of OE and the expected features ie in the "description" posts I posted on OpenEu. Due to the general lack of comments, I don't know if there is broad agreement, broad disagreement or anything in between about them. Additionally, a voting system had been put forth to select priorities and make some decisions. As of today, they were 4 votes. I was wondering if it is wise to star writing solid specs on such material. I frrl Derek has to send some signal to us about that. I'm taking a two week leave without any Internet connection. Keep on the good work! CChris >> >> Ray Smith >> http://rays-web.com >> > > jbrown, > tired > > >> TOPICA - Start your
15. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 18, 2003
- 487 views
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 02:46:33PM +0200, Christian.CUVIER at agriculture.gouv.fr wrote: > > The interest on OE died a bit with the dropping of PEU (which is not really > > true > > even - my runtime lib "borrows" a great deal of code from PEU, tho it is > > considerably cleaned up). > > > > I'm hoping, when I finish my translator, it will rise up again. (But right > > now > > I'm using my "made up" OE specs, since Derek and CChris havent produced me > > an official OE standard v0.1 yet -- but no rush guys ;) > > > > Quite a few descriptions of aspects of OE and the expected features ie > in the "description" posts I posted on OpenEu. Due to the general lack > of comments, I don't know if there is broad agreement, broad > disagreement or anything in between about them. Hmmm ok. I'll have to go to topica and dig those emails up sometime (not a big hassle tho really). > Additionally, a voting system had been put forth to select priorities > and make some decisions. As of today, they were 4 votes. I was wondering > if it is wise to star writing solid specs on such material. I frrl Derek > has to send some signal to us about that. That could be a problem. It would seem then that there is little interest in designing OE. Until we get more input, we can either sit around and do nothing waiting (not only a waste of time but also not likely to gain us more interest) or make some presumtions about what should be put in and then make changes to later versions after we've gotten some user feedback (part of the reason we might not be getting much is because users want to be able to test the feature out before it is decided that it is a bad idea). P.S. Where is the voting system exactly? Last i heard one had to email Derek, has that changed? > I'm taking a two week leave without any Internet connection. > Keep on the good work! Thanks, see you in 2 weeks. > > CChris > jbrown -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html