1. Moving on...
I've made the decision...
As I stated before here on the list I was looking around for a
language that could replace our current development environment.
I was seriously hopeing that Euphoria would be it as I really
like it and was drawn in to it almost instantly when I found it.
However, after some small tests I've come to the conclusion that
Eu is currently not up to the task. I must agree with several
people here now that several areas (like GUI libraries) are to
much a fragmented effort and therefor it seems to me that none
of the available libraries can perform in a production environment.
An example: I was building the user interface for the universal
IDE with win32lib and found that certain icons on buttons where
not showing during runtime, but it's completely random which icons
where showing or not across several runs.
As I need a *stable* system NOW (for my company), Euphoria and the
available libraries don't perform as needed. I know my example
looks trivial, but for contract work this little thing is already
a big issue.
This does not mean that I'm giving up on Euphoria completely.
I will keep on testing it and see if I can use it for small
personal projects for now. I will also remain participating here
on the list.
Just for info, I've decided to go Java for my company. Although
I actually HATE Java as a language (I don't like OO programming
either), it will give us a widely supported platform that has
proven itself capable of handling very large business applications.
Also the availability of a very professional IDE (www.eclipse.org)
has influenced my decision. In addition to that, most hevy-weight
databases have a JDBC driver available and are completely
maintainable from the IDE. There's more, but these are the most
important points for my decisions.
I really hope that Euphoria will step up to be a viable platform
for development of serious applications. I know for sure that
the actual development in Eu is much faster then in most other
languages, including Java.
Hans Peter Willems
2. Re: Moving on...
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:45:49 +0000 (08/13/03 21:45:49)
, Peter Willems <peter at integratedmoves.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've made the decision...
[big snip]
I do agree with all your sentiments.
Basically, Euphoria is not yet ready for commercial applications. It is
*so* close but I couldn't rely on apps written in Euphoria to be robust.
And as you mention, general development time is greatly reduced with
Euphoria.
I'm not giving up on it yet either.
The main problems, IMHO...
** No crash clean up routine.
** No easy access to GUI, Databases, Internet development. Currently we
must either do these from first principles or use unoffical libraries that
are still in development. This is similar to starting with a C compiler
without access to commercial libraries.
** Not many trained developers available. (This is a minor issue as
learning Eu is very fast).
--
cheers,
Derek Parnell
3. Re: Moving on...
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net
Aug 13, 2003
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Getz" <Xaxo at aol.com>
> More small improvements will help though i'm sure.
> Maybe we should start a 'wish list' for 2.5 to submit to Rob now?
>
> Top of my list is 'reuseable include files'.
>
> Take care for now,
> Al
Multi-process execution / thread capable...
Multi-process execution / thread capable...
Multi-process execution / thread capable...
[Goto] [label] inside proc / func
possibly an EXIT
sequence expected_var
expected_var = {1,2}
procedure proc(var)
:init_label
if var = expected_var[1] then
GOTO first_label
elsif var = expected_var[2] then
GOTO second_label
else GOTO init_label end if
:first_label
"Well, Im in the first_label now"
EXIT
:second_label
"Well, Im in the second_label now"
EXIT
-- you'll argue the point that I would continuosly loop if (var) isnt
either of
-- the (expected_var) sequence. Answer, (var) could be an in ram pointer
-- that is changed....IF we had multi-process control.
end procedure
I dont need 1000 explanations on how to make this work in Euphoria now,
just making a generalized statment....
Euman
4. Re: Moving on...
An opinion from an experienced neophyte:
> Python
> Perl
> Ruby
Having looked at Python and Ruby, I'd say Ruby is the contender. However,
it's not a contender enough to make me stray from EUPHORIA.
> 3. Rob wouldn't likely starve if he made Eu open source.
Making EUPHORIA open source would probably be a project management
nightmare. I don't know if Rob does this fulltime or not... I would expect
he does it at least half full-time. :)
And what happens when people start adding their own stupid crap to it, like
"goto," "iterators," "0-based indexing," and tons of other cumbersome
poopie? I know there'd be a standard, but I fear a mutiny!!! :)
5. Re: Moving on...
I wonder, who is keeping track of these comments for OE?
I suspect many of the ideas showing up here would be very useful.
jbrown
On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 09:40:18AM -0500, C. K. Lester wrote:
>
>
> An opinion from an experienced neophyte:
>
> > Python
> > Perl
> > Ruby
>
> Having looked at Python and Ruby, I'd say Ruby is the contender. However,
> it's not a contender enough to make me stray from EUPHORIA.
>
> > 3. Rob wouldn't likely starve if he made Eu open source.
>
> Making EUPHORIA open source would probably be a project management
> nightmare. I don't know if Rob does this fulltime or not... I would expect
> he does it at least half full-time. :)
>
> And what happens when people start adding their own stupid crap to it, like
> "goto," "iterators," "0-based indexing," and tons of other cumbersome
> poopie? I know there'd be a standard, but I fear a mutiny!!! :)
>
>
>
> TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
>
>
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6. Re: Moving on...
Matt,
Could you give some detail on the mods you've made to your copy of
MakeDoc.exw?
I ask because although I've been temporarily side-tracked, I was (& intend
to return to) making an "editor" intended to make it easy to add the
slash-tag style commenting to any existing library, so MakeDoc can use that
library to create the htm doc. Idea is for library creator not to have to
concern themselves with the slash-tags, just fill out a "form" for each
global intended for library user use.
Dan Moyer
From: Matt Lewis >
> From: Peter Willems
> > Al Getz wrote:
> > > It's true that development goes faster when there is more
> > > then one person working on something, but the thing is,
> > > does everyone really want to work on the same exact project?
> >
> > I think that other projects are showing that it can work this
> > way. I do think that more people would like to participate IF
> > they actually knew that they could. I think that some form of
> > project management (through a community site) would help much
> > to attract participants in the first place.
>
> I think it's important to remember that a 'project team' isn't synonymous
> with 'coders' (I know that Peter and Derek are posting with this in mind).
> Even simple help with documentation can dramatically raise the quality of
a
> project. I strongly recommend using the makedoc utility that comes with
> Win32Lib (I've made a lot of modifications to my copy). It makes the
> process a lot less painful. Since I've started using it religiously, I
> think my documentation has seen huge improvements (I'd rate most of it at
> poor to fair now :). One thing that's always a turnoff to me is a short
> readme.txt file saying to look at the comments in the file to see how
> everything works. Please use some sort of doc generator (like the
> above-mentioned makedoc.exw) that pulls those comments out into an HTML
file
> or something. The easier and more user friendly your projects, the better
> they'll be received. It's always worth delaying a day to release if you
> spend the time documenting everything. Plus testers and demo writers are
a
> lot of help.
>
> One problem, as Al alludes, is that many projects cover a fairly narrow
> spectrum of interest. There may be only 2 or 3 people even remotely
> interested in a project in the Euphoria community. Unless its something
you
> feel very passionate about, without interest and feedback from others, you
> *will* lose interest in any project. This often leads others to believe
> that the project is dead. They don't inquire about it, seeing that it's
> very incomplete and inactive, and so the developer never regains interest
in
> it. It's a chicken and the egg scenario in some respects.
>
>
> > > Usually this isnt the case unless there is some concrete
> > > reward, even if it's small. Most people i think do what they
> > > do because they really want to do it, not because they are
> > > getting paid 
> >
> > Agreed. But I'm sure there are more people that would like
> > to help, just for the fun of it.
>
> We actually have a reward system. No one's going to get rich off the
> MicroEconomy, but it's a great way to recognize the efforts of others, not
> to mention encourage them. Personally, I feel it to be a responsibility
to
> put my votes in (just like voting in real elections). I don't always vote
> for things that I actually have a use for, but often for projects that
seem
> interesting to me for one reason or another. I hope that the votes help
> motivate the authors to continue to develop.
>
> Matt Lewis
>
>
>
> TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
>
7. Re: Moving on...
> The problem, of course, is that hardly anyone wants
> to buy a book about Euphoria. The first step would be
> to determine why that is true.
I suspect that the first person out of the gate with a good EUPHORIA book is
going to start a trend that will only be good for RDS.
I can see the book in my mind, but I gotta have time... Irv, you got time,
dontcha?! :)
8. Re: Moving on...
Matt, thanks, I'll look at the EuSQL docs & source.
Dan Moyer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Lewis" <matthewwalkerlewis at yahoo.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: RE: Moving on...
>
>
> > From: Dan Moyer [mailto:DANIELMOYER at prodigy.net]
>
> > Could you give some detail on the mods you've made to your copy of
> > MakeDoc.exw?
> >
> > I ask because although I've been temporarily side-tracked, I
> > was (& intend
> > to return to) making an "editor" intended to make it easy to add the
> > slash-tag style commenting to any existing library, so
> > MakeDoc can use that
> > library to create the htm doc. Idea is for library creator
> > not to have to
> > concern themselves with the slash-tags, just fill out a
> > "form" for each
> > global intended for library user use.
>
> First, I added some categories in addition to proc/func etc to match what
I
> needed. Take a look at the docs for EuSQL. I changed the font and
> background colors. I also added a feature to allow categories to have
> parents and children, so you could navigate through sub/super categories
in
> the docs, and only categories without parents show up in the TOC. I just
> added a /parent tag. Take a look at the source and docs for EDB for
> examples of using this. I can post my copy of makedoc.exw, too, since
it's
> changed a bit from the current, plus my version is from before the
> pre-multi-file mods.
>
> Matt Lewis
>
>
>
> TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
>
9. Re: Moving on...
Ray Smith wrote:
<snip>
> An "EU Community" has very little hope of developing past the current
> mailing list.
> People who decide to do major contributions to projects and then give
> it all away will almost always decide to do it on 100% open source
> projects.
Not inevitable.
> Why would anyone put huge amounts of effort into helping develop Eu
> furthur (i.e. by writing doco, libraries, apps, etc) when the core is
> closed and is only being "very slowly" developed and 100% controlled
> by 1 person???
Maybe because s/he likes the language so much? I only can guess. There
_are_ people who actually do major contributions. I'm sure they can say,
why they do so. If I had the capability, I surely also would do so.
> ok a few people contribute (I was one of them) but compared to other
> languages very few.
There is a considerable amout of contributions in the RDS archive.
> Closed source products (i.e. Euphoria, Microsoft products etc) are
> made by people who want to make money.
Making money is not evil by itself.
(Send 20$ for more info. SCNR)
> Open Source products (i.e. Perl, Python, Ruby) are made by people who
> want to make great products.
Generally speaking: What do you think, how many people I have seen in my
life, who _wanted_ to make good things. Please believe me, wanting to
make good things, is completely different from _actually doing_ good
things ...
> That's why these open source languages can now compete with the best
> closed source languages that the biggest companies (with huge
> amounts) of money develop.
Certainly there are some good open source languages, but I don't think
any open source language is good, just _because_ it's open source.
If we want to understand, what prerequisites are necessary to develop a
good programming language, we must go a bit more in detail I believe.
<snip>
> The only thing that will make Euphoria more popular is for it to
> become open source.
I disagree. For instance, more advertising would also make Euphoria
more popular. This "What will make Euphoria more popular?" discussion
arises here from time to time. Interestingly, I've never seen, that Rob
participates in this discussion. Maybe this isn't an issue for him at
all?
<snip>
> Talented people, I mean really talented people (I'm by no means
> including myself!!!) just aren't going to jump into the Euphoria
> community and write high class libs utils doco etc. It's just not
> going to happen.
Hmm?? I _do_ see some talented people in this community, actually doing
great contributions.
> All of these poeple are over using Perl, Python and
> Ruby etc having a great time. Open Source is like a light that
> flicks on in your head, when it turns on you just can't imagine why
> you didn't understand it before, or why others can't see what you see!
That's actually a good description of how I feel with Euphoria.
> If Euphoria is doing everything you want to it do now, then great,
> if you'd like it to other things and you yourself aren't able to, or
> not willing to do it, then don't hold your breath!
That looks like a real judgement of Solomon.
> Ray Smith
> http://rays-web.com
Best regards,
Juergen
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10. Re: Moving on...
On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 12:02:38PM +0000, Ray Smith wrote:
> An "EU Community" has very little hope of developing past the current
> mailing list.
>
> People who decide to do major contributions to projects and then give
> it all away will almost always decide to do it on 100% open source
> projects.
>
> Why would anyone put huge amounts of effort into helping develop Eu
> furthur (i.e. by writing doco, libraries, apps, etc) when the core is
> closed and is only being "very slowly" developed and 100% controlled
> by 1 person???
>
> ok a few people contribute (I was one of them) but compared to other
> languages very few.
There is the OpenEuphoria movement. Why has no one even mentioned that?
There is working being done on making a compatible open source core for
those librarys ... if what you say is true then when this is done the OE
community will become very popular quickly.
However, while there was a lot of initial interest, the movement has slowed
quite a bit. Apparently there isn't a huge amount of interest in having
Euphora Open source after all...
(I'll still try to write one, of course, simply because I find it an
interesting project. As do many other open source coders.)
jbrown
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11. Re: Moving on...
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 12:08:44AM +0000, Ray Smith wrote:
jbrown105 at speedymail.org wrote:
> There is the OpenEuphoria movement. Why has no one even mentioned that?
> There is working being done on making a compatible open source core for
> those librarys ... if what you say is true then when this is done the OE
> community will become very popular quickly.
Yes, I think if an Open Source Euphoria existed, this would become the
building blocks of many great additions which would make Euphoria far
far more popular. I'd be back to programming Euphoria full time if
an Open Source Euphoria existed.
Well I'm working on it. (An open source OE translator, working on the runtime
library atm.)
> However, while there was a lot of initial interest, the movement has
> slowed
> quite a bit. Apparently there isn't a huge amount of interest in having
> Euphora Open source after all...
I haven't seen any real progress with OpenEU in almost a year. At the
current rate it looks like it would take up to 5 years to get even
close to the current "offifical Euphoria". It might be too late in 5
years for it to make a difference???
The interest on OE died a bit with the dropping of PEU (which is not really true
even - my runtime lib "borrows" a great deal of code from PEU, tho it is
considerably cleaned up).
I'm hoping, when I finish my translator, it will rise up again. (But right now
I'm using my "made up" OE specs, since Derek and CChris havent produced me
an official OE standard v0.1 yet -- but no rush guys ;)
Ray Smith
http://rays-web.com
jbrown,
tired
TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
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12. Re: Moving on...
Peter Willems wrote:
<snip>
> The fact that some great languages are Open Source does not mean
> that only Open Source languages are good.
I totally agree.
And it also doesn't mean, that all Open Source languages are
automatically good, just because they are Open Source.
> There are many non
> Open Source languages as well that are very good.
Yep.
<snip>
>> If Euphoria's income isn't doing that, then I'm saying there are some
>> really strong arguements to make Euphoria open source.
>
> But there are also arguments to keep it proprietary. There is
> a very important reason that Sun is not releasing Java into
> Open Source and I think it is for keeping a standard.
I think, this might be an important point regarding Euphoria, too.
On the one hand, many poeple (including myself) would like to have this
and that option added to Euphoria. On the other hand, AFAIK every Eu
programmer likes the clear and clean syntax of Euphoria. If too many
"bells and whistles" would be added to Euphoria, probably the syntax
soon wouldn't be clear and clean any more.
<snip>
Regards,
Juergen
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13. Re: Moving on...
On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 10:00:16AM +0000, Peter Willems wrote:
> > If Euphoria's income isn't doing that, then I'm saying there are some
> > really strong arguements to make Euphoria open source.
>
> But there are also arguments to keep it proprietary. There is
> a very important reason that Sun is not releasing Java into
> Open Source and I think it is for keeping a standard.
Of course, you can look at Python or Perl. Both are open source, both have
well established standards. Also, Python has 2 implementations last time I
checked (original Python in C and Jython, the Java version of Python) and
a third (Python in C#) was being planned. And yet the Python standard
stays intact. As does the language.
So, perhaps the reason Java isnt open source has nothing to do with keeping
it a standard after all... (or at best, if that is a reason, its a misguided
one imho).
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14. Re: Moving on...
> From: jbrown105 at speedymail.org
> Subject: Re: Moving on...
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 12:08:44AM +0000, Ray Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> jbrown105 at speedymail.org wrote:
>>
>
>> > There is the OpenEuphoria movement. Why has no one even mentioned that?
>> > There is working being done on making a compatible open source core for
>> > those librarys ... if what you say is true then when this is done the OE
>> > community will become very popular quickly.
>
>>
>> Yes, I think if an Open Source Euphoria existed, this would become the
>> building blocks of many great additions which would make Euphoria far
>> far more popular. I'd be back to programming Euphoria full time if
>> an Open Source Euphoria existed.
>
>
> Well I'm working on it. (An open source OE translator, working on the runtime
> library atm.)
>
>
>> > However, while there was a lot of initial interest, the movement has
>> > slowed
>> > quite a bit. Apparently there isn't a huge amount of interest in having
>> > Euphora Open source after all...
>
>>
>> I haven't seen any real progress with OpenEU in almost a year. At the
>> current rate it looks like it would take up to 5 years to get even
>> close to the current "offifical Euphoria". It might be too late in 5
>> years for it to make a difference???
>>
Ray, I'm sure that, if you joined the OE effort, the 5 years span wouod
narrow down to a manageable 2 or 3 years ! Step in !
>
> The interest on OE died a bit with the dropping of PEU (which is not really
> true
> even - my runtime lib "borrows" a great deal of code from PEU, tho it is
> considerably cleaned up).
>
> I'm hoping, when I finish my translator, it will rise up again. (But right now
> I'm using my "made up" OE specs, since Derek and CChris havent produced me
> an official OE standard v0.1 yet -- but no rush guys ;)
>
Quite a few descriptions of aspects of OE and the expected features ie
in the "description" posts I posted on OpenEu. Due to the general lack
of comments, I don't know if there is broad agreement, broad
disagreement or anything in between about them.
Additionally, a voting system had been put forth to select priorities
and make some decisions. As of today, they were 4 votes. I was wondering
if it is wise to star writing solid specs on such material. I frrl Derek
has to send some signal to us about that.
I'm taking a two week leave without any Internet connection.
Keep on the good work!
CChris
>>
>> Ray Smith
>> http://rays-web.com
>>
>
> jbrown,
> tired
>
>
>> TOPICA - Start your
15. Re: Moving on...
On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 02:46:33PM +0200, Christian.CUVIER at
agriculture.gouv.fr wrote:
> > The interest on OE died a bit with the dropping of PEU (which is not really
> > true
> > even - my runtime lib "borrows" a great deal of code from PEU, tho it is
> > considerably cleaned up).
> >
> > I'm hoping, when I finish my translator, it will rise up again. (But right
> > now
> > I'm using my "made up" OE specs, since Derek and CChris havent produced me
> > an official OE standard v0.1 yet -- but no rush guys ;)
> >
>
> Quite a few descriptions of aspects of OE and the expected features ie
> in the "description" posts I posted on OpenEu. Due to the general lack
> of comments, I don't know if there is broad agreement, broad
> disagreement or anything in between about them.
Hmmm ok. I'll have to go to topica and dig those emails up sometime (not
a big hassle tho really).
> Additionally, a voting system had been put forth to select priorities
> and make some decisions. As of today, they were 4 votes. I was wondering
> if it is wise to star writing solid specs on such material. I frrl Derek
> has to send some signal to us about that.
That could be a problem. It would seem then that there is little interest
in designing OE. Until we get more input, we can either sit around and do
nothing waiting (not only a waste of time but also not likely to gain us more
interest) or make some presumtions about what should be put in and then make
changes to later versions after we've gotten some user feedback (part of the
reason we might not be getting much is because users want to be able to test
the feature out before it is decided that it is a bad idea).
P.S. Where is the voting system exactly? Last i heard one had to email Derek,
has that changed?
> I'm taking a two week leave without any Internet connection.
> Keep on the good work!
Thanks, see you in 2 weeks.
>
> CChris
>
jbrown
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