1. Euphoria's Future
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at IX.NET.AU>
Jan 10, 2001
-
Last edited Jan 11, 2001
Hi,
I know I know, ... I'm moaning again with my same old ideas ... and as
ck said I should be working on euAllegro anyway!.
I don't want to flood the list with my talk of cross platform GUI's
and an IDE to go with it ... that is my top wish ... I want to hear
what everyone else would wish for.
I guess what I'm proposing is a poll or survey where we can set up a
list of features that people are/might be interested in and everyone
can then vote for features they wish for with their priorities.
This way if we get hundreds of people voting for cross platform GUI
support we can ask Rob (nicely) saying all these people would like a
cross platform GUI ... or whatever feature is most requested.
We can also have a column .. "would you pay extra for the feature".
What does everyone think?
It seems to me Rob doesn't have a direction as to where Euphoria
is heading and for some reason that bothers me.
Maybe if all Euphoria uses stand together and asked
nicely we might be able to persude Rob to at least give some commitments
to investiagte users wishes and some ideas as to the future direction.
Here comes some waffle ...
If we can create a list of future enhancements (like above) and
some of the requests can be filled by standard libraries an option
might be for Rob to contract out jobs to be completed by users.
(Forgive me for what I'm about to say ... I got this idea from something
MTS said about him (MTS) joining RDS!)
There would be much to decide upon before starting like specs and delivery
and payment and support etc etc etc.
Maybe payment options include being paid a percentage of sales for the
addon where the addon is just an extra product from RDS.
Maybe the current IDE and Win32Lib projects could slot into this idea for
when v1.0 are achieved. This would give the developers a nice little
incentive plus a small reward.
Obviously these are just some ideas and the big guy (Rob) is in full
control to run RDS how he sees fit.
My perosnal view is that things seem to progress very slowly in Euphoria
circles and could do with some enthusiasm. (forgive me again ... like MTS!)
I know Euphoria is inexpensive but that doesn't mean it has to lack
features. I'm sure I've heard things on the list like ...
"I'd pay x dollars for Euphoria if it had a feature y."
Anyway ... what do people think of my crazy ideas?
cya
Ray Smith
-----------------------
P.S An example survey:
Features you would like to see in Euphoria:
Where
1. Very desiable
2. Diserable
3. Useful
4. Maybe useful
5. Never use
Pay - How much would you pay for this feature
Feature 1 2 3 4 5 Pay
1. Full Featured IDE
2. Debug support with IDE
3. Cross platform GUI Tools
4. Namespace Enhancement
5. ODBC Data Access
6. ....
7. ....
etc
2. Re: Euphoria's Future
Hi Ray ...,
I just read your mail below, so here is my opinion about euphoria's features.
****
Euphoria is what it is and what Rob wants that it is. It will always be like
that.
Why not ?
I for myself showed it to my boss, the small programs, that it fits on a disk
the automatic "inner loop" with the sequences etc.
And then he asked me to change a few things on an existing Program with a
User-Interface.
(some Labels and Graphics that were made with winlib32).
We needed half a day to move all things where he wanted to have it.
Thats because we had to change the coordinates "by hand", re-run the program etc
...
Then he said "Ok, from tomorow we use VB6 and it will be done in 5 Minutes".
I did it and installed VB6 - it filled my harddisk with 300 MB (Visual Studio 6)
and my PC crashed several times from the heavy load since then.
BUT HE IS TRUE ... I can change existing Program surfaces in a tenth
of the time I could do it with EU. Its just a "drag and drop".
There are a lot of controls etc. simply missing and the Visual-Editor
with integrated Debugger is lengths away from what EU has at this time.
So for myself I made a simple decision: Small programms and DOS-Stuff in EU,
bigger Proggramms especially with a User-Interface only VB6 till I see
something like that in EU. Its done in the half time.
Speed ? VB6 compiles to native Machine-code.
I tested the Speed of the "string-engine" in VB6.
Did anyone knew that its multithreading by itself ? In my tests it (often)
used two processors, even though I was only running ONE programm and that all at
an
unbelievable speed (in string operations).
The only thing I am missing there is an built in "inline-assembler",
to use inline-assembly is definitely easier in EU as its only possible to call
things from an DLL. Most other things are as easy in VB.
So my wishes are similar to yours, but I must not wait as most of these things
are avaiable even though for bad luck not in EU .... 
--Theo Gottwald
http://www.theogott.de
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Smith [mailto:smithr at IX.NET.AU]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 3:48 AM
Subject: Euphoria's Future
Hi,
I know I know, ... I'm moaning again with my same old ideas ... and as
ck said I should be working on euAllegro anyway!.
I don't want to flood the list with my talk of cross platform GUI's
and an IDE to go with it ... that is my top wish ... I want to hear
what everyone else would wish for.
I guess what I'm proposing is a poll or survey where we can set up a
list of features that people are/might be interested in and everyone
can then vote for features they wish for with their priorities.
This way if we get hundreds of people voting for cross platform GUI
support we can ask Rob (nicely) saying all these people would like a
cross platform GUI ... or whatever feature is most requested.
We can also have a column .. "would you pay extra for the feature".
What does everyone think?
It seems to me Rob doesn't have a direction as to where Euphoria
is heading and for some reason that bothers me.
Maybe if all Euphoria uses stand together and asked
nicely we might be able to persude Rob to at least give some commitments
to investiagte users wishes and some ideas as to the future direction.
Here comes some waffle ...
If we can create a list of future enhancements (like above) and
some of the requests can be filled by standard libraries an option
might be for Rob to contract out jobs to be completed by users.
(Forgive me for what I'm about to say ... I got this idea from something
MTS said about him (MTS) joining RDS!)
There would be much to decide upon before starting like specs and delivery
and payment and support etc etc etc.
Maybe payment options include being paid a percentage of sales for the
addon where the addon is just an extra product from RDS.
Maybe the current IDE and Win32Lib projects could slot into this idea for
when v1.0 are achieved. This would give the developers a nice little
incentive plus a small reward.
Obviously these are just some ideas and the big guy (Rob) is in full
control to run RDS how he sees fit.
My perosnal view is that things seem to progress very slowly in Euphoria
circles and could do with some enthusiasm. (forgive me again ... like MTS!)
I know Euphoria is inexpensive but that doesn't mean it has to lack
features. I'm sure I've heard things on the list like ...
"I'd pay x dollars for Euphoria if it had a feature y."
Anyway ... what do people think of my crazy ideas?
cya
Ray Smith
-----------------------
P.S An example survey:
Features you would like to see in Euphoria:
Where
1. Very desiable
2. Diserable
3. Useful
4. Maybe useful
5. Never use
Pay - How much would you pay for this feature
Feature 1 2 3 4 5 Pay
1. Full Featured IDE
2. Debug support with IDE
3. Cross platform GUI Tools
4. Namespace Enhancement
5. ODBC Data Access
6. ....
7. ....
etc
3. Re: Euphoria's Future
- Posted by Ray & Debbie Smith <smithr at IX.NET.AU>
Jan 11, 2001
-
Last edited Jan 12, 2001
> YEAH! WTF? No poly fillers?? That's the first thing
> you should have put in! Now that I got the chance to
> tell you right on, I did!
> And get rid of that extra DLL, it's so small I don't
> see any use for it except decreasing euAllegro's
> popularity.
Yes there is an extra DLL in euAllegro that I could remove if
my C compiler usage was better. I'll get around to it one day.
For now there are 2 dll's instead of 1 and probably a proportion of 1%
decrease in speed.
At the moment there is the standard Allegro dll (all3933.dll) and my
euall.dll
that contains the interface to all3933.dll plus the extra modules like
Mappy,
JGMOD and PPCol. It shoud be possible to link the actual all3933.dll code
right into euall.dll ... but as I said I'll get to it one day.
> Why is it that for every library wrapper that is
> created for Euphoria an extra DLL has to be created
> too? That's fucking annoying, slow, and looks bad. And
> half of the time those DLLs crash.
If you want to wrap C libraries that aren't distributed with Windows
you need to distribute DLL's (or shared libraries in Linux).
Unless you want to re-write the library in Euphoria which would
result in slower code. It is a drawback that you have to distribute
a DLL but as far as I can see their aren't any alternatives.
If you want to use Allegro ... you need a DLL.
I haven't distributed any code to the general public but it's just a
matter of coping that DLL into the same folder as your program.
Every install system allows this to be done very easily.
> For DX I could
> understand it, but OpenGL and Allergo only export C
> functions, wich should be imported using
> define_c_func() directly, not with some crazy ass DLL
> in the middle of it all.
I needed to wrap the euAllegro in another DLL for two reasons:
1. I was lazy and didn't want to convert all the C macros to Euphoria.
And Allegro uses many C macros.
2. Allegro also uses many global variables which you need to get and
set the values for. Currently there is no way to do this using Windows
Euphoria. I beleive from reading the Euphoria doco this can be done in
Linux.
> Man, if I got through to one person, all my efforts
> have paid off! Thanks for understanding the reality of
> Euphoria's future!
Many people have come and gone from the Euphoria community for probably
a lot of similar reasons which you so elegantly write :).
I gave up in disgust about 18 months ago for all the same reasons.
Then about 6 months ago ... out of pure luck I started up again with
a different attitute ... basically have a bit fun ...
but don't expect to much ... and in some cases not expecting to much
is the wrong attitude .... I have been having fun though :)
For all the power of Euphoria, at the moment it is still a toy ... at least
in
Windows. For all the hard work of many people who have contributed
libraries and code, it still impossible to write full blown
commercial quality windows apps.
I don't mean that with any disrespect but the fact that Euphoria doesn't
come
with a Windows IDE and no Windows GUI tools and no way to access
data outside of Euphoria (except the MySQL wrapper??) ... means it by itself
is useless for windows programming. In time these holes will be filled
by user libraries but until then all we can do is help with the guys (and
gals!)
doing all the work (or look at writing alternatives). If (and maybe when)
these
projects are completed it would seem reasonable for their authors to receive
some
kind of financial benefit, especially considering it will financially reward
RDS in
time. Anyone who has been involved with any kind of software development
will understand the amazing amount of effort required to produce good
quality products.
I should say the Micro economy is RDS's approach of rewarding user
contributions ..
and for the smaller projects I think it has its merit ... but for larger
projects I think
something else is required.
> I agree wholeheartly, except for the Payment part.
> I don't see Robert paying dozens of people that
> contribute to Euphoria, he'd even ask YOU to pay for
> him to release his source. He could however give free
> Euphoria copies to all contributors, but that's the
> limit of his generosity.
I imagine most people who are able to write the quality of
software required would be registered anyway.
I don't think it is unreasonable to think if someone wrote a
good quality IDE or GUI toolkit that Rob shouldn't offer them
money for it and add it to the base distribution.
I think a more achievable aim might be for Rob to offer that
product (eg an IDE) for sale using his resources as a seperate
product or as an add-on product. Then the author just shares
a percentage of the sales with RDS and RDS doesn't need to
fork out any up front capital. Again with maybe a cut down
version available for free. This way the current small size and
inexpsenive Euphoria can remain with optional add on products.
It obviously depends on two things ... if Rob is interested and
if anyone out their has the time, effort, resources and knowledge
to complete such projects.
I trully beleive this idea or some variation of it should be considered
by Rob. I think the one man show that is Euphoria has shown and will
continue to show that it can't deliver the functionality required to be a
general purpose programming environment (especially in Windows).
You can compare Euphoria to Visual Basic to Delphi to C++ ... whatever
language you want ... their just aren't the tools available to produce
good quality Windows software. What Euphoria is, is like Visual Basic
or Delphi without the IDE's, debuggers, GUI tools, and dozens of other
libraries
that are packaged with these products. If you removed all that from Visual
Basic
it would be small fast and "almost" as sexy!
I guess all my rambling comes down to the fact that Rob should consider
some ways of increasing the coders developing Euphoria. I think power
users writing some good quaility libraries would be a good start.
As an example if Rob said to me, I'll give you X dollars or Y% of sales
for writing a quaility ODBC interface I'd seriously consider it.
Even though I know nothing of it, I might buy a book, read MSDN or
something but it would be a major challange with a possibly a nice
reward.
I might say ... give me a few weeks to investigate the possiblity and
I'll get back to you. I would write a small prototype as proof of concept
and then discuss further with RDS.
( Don't ask me Rob as ODBC doesn't interest me that much!!! :) )
I guess that also brings me back to that list of features survey I
mentioned,
if 100 people said they would pay $15 for an IDE I'm sure a few people
would consider putting some more effort in!
I'm also sure not everyone who said they would pay would actually buy it,
and the amount of effort required to complete such a project wouln't mean
you'd
quit your day job ... but it would still be an incentive.
Anyway it's late and I'll probably read this tomorrow and think what a load
of crap
was I going on about last night!!! ( buy maybe not )
Ray Smith
4. Re: Euphoria's Future
Hi there Ray !!
I find your poll to be a very good initiative,
it just might get Robert Craig to implement these
features we have all longed for for a very long time.
I think the feature that we would all be most
interested in, would be a new addition to the RDS
staff.
Someone that can program in both C and Euphoria
extremely well.
And has a better "marketing feel" than Robert.
Someone that will listen to what we want and implement
it.
In accordance to Robert's standards of the Euphoria
language, off course.
The reason for languages such as Python, Tcl and Java
to succeed in a very small amount of time, is because
they aren't proprietary.
Euphoria is more of a product, and not a language.
A Visual Basic, perhaps, without the neat features.
I'm not saying Robert should release the source code
to Euphoria, that he wouldn't do anyways, and it would
cause a bunch of Euphoria implementations that run one
program, and a bunch of other implementations that
don't.
The Euphoria source code is not portable across
platforms eighter.
What he *could* do, however, would be to assemble a
small OpenEU, or Portable Euphoria, which would be a
subset of the interpreter, yet in portable ANSI C
source code for anyone to download and embed.
Why would this be beneficial to RDS?
Imagine Euphoria-enabled browsers using RDS source,
games that use Euphoria as scripting language,
EuScript as a way to write macros for commercial
programs, etc.
Euphoria would gain popularity, yet to be able to
create *real* proffesional Euphoria programs, once
would have to buy the RDS interpreter/translator
package.
It wouldn't matter if this limited Euphoria
interpreter would be slower, or have less features as
the RDS full product, it is open, it is free, it is
extensible and it is embeddable.
Robert, Junko, please consider this.
It would be giving us the source in the sense of
giving us the ability to do what we wanted the source
for in the first place, yet keeping the source and the
language to yourself.
Angelica,
-XXX-
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5. Re: Euphoria's Future
mts
if you're going to use pseudonyms, you'll have to learn how to
spell "either".
no need, if your posts maintain the even tone of this last one.
cheers
tacitus (to tell the truth, that's not really my name eighter)
6. Re: Euphoria's Future
Great ideas, Mi- I mean Angelica!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meiven Angelica" <ameiven at YAHOO.COM>
To: <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future
> The Euphoria source code is not portable across
> platforms eighter.
> Imagine Euphoria-enabled browsers using RDS source,
> games that use Euphoria as scripting language,
> EuScript as a way to write macros for commercial
> programs, etc.
>
> Angelica,
> -XXX-
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
7. Re: Euphoria's Future
On Wed, 17 Jan 2001 04:42:53 -0800, Meiven Angelica <ameiven at YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
>I find your poll to be a very good initiative,
>it just might get Robert Craig to implement these
>features we have all longed for for a very long time.
Thanks for responding Angelica.
I think that brings it to about half a dozen people
with positive feedback about the survey idea which is
about enough to get it off the ground!
Does anyone know of a free web site where a list can
be created/modified and viewed by many people???
ie. to setup a page on the web where people can add
what they would like on the survey ... or to put it
another way ... what they would like to see in Euphoria!
I'm thinking of www.egroups.com but it seems a little
silly to setup a maillist just to use the database feature.
Anyone have any ideas about free web based databases?
>I think the feature that we would all be most
>interested in, would be a new addition to the RDS
>staff.
>Someone that can program in both C and Euphoria
>extremely well.
>And has a better "marketing feel" than Robert.
>Someone that will listen to what we want and implement
>it.
>In accordance to Robert's standards of the Euphoria
>language, off course.
I agree. I imagine it would be a little difficult as
I'd guess Euphoria is more of a hobby for Rob then a
business. Anyone joining RDS would obviously need to
have this same hobby.
I don't beleive Euphoria could (in the short term ...
and possibly never) be a full time job for any developer.
>The reason for languages such as Python, Tcl and Java
>to succeed in a very small amount of time, is because
>they aren't proprietary.
Java is a little different but yes ... if Rob ever did
open source Euphoria it would be the biggest and greatest
thing that ever happened. It would probaby take 1-2 years
before we starting seeing the results but presonally I
think the future would be much brighter.
I believe it's the old chicken and egg problem here ...
At the moment Euphoria isn't hugely popular like the
Pythons or Perls ... There are companies offering
commercial support for these languages ... ie making money
from these langauges.
I don't think Euphoria is advanced enough at the moment
that if it did go open source that business oppurtutites
would exist.
If it did go open source now within a few years of a lot
of work from a few people it "might" be possible for people
to make money from a much larger user base and further
developed product.
What that means is Rob would lose (or not gain) any
financial benefit for a number of years ... and maybe never.
I don't think anyone could ask anyone to give something
so good away, that has taken so much work to achieve.
I think the only way at looking at the option of going open
source is for the sake of Euphoria itself (the Euphoria
community) and how much more, and how much better Euphoria
could be with multiple developers.
>Euphoria is more of a product, and not a language.
I disagree with this. I think Euphoria is just a language.
I think things like Visual Basic and Delphi are more like
development environments.
If Visual Basic delivered the same as Euphoria you could
kiss goodbye the GUI IDE, GUI designer, OO support (as limiting
as it is in VB), the dozens of libraries available (TCP,
Data Access, Grid controls, COM/ActiveX support, etc
>What he *could* do, however, would be to assemble a
>small OpenEU, or Portable Euphoria, which would be a
>subset of the interpreter, yet in portable ANSI C
>source code for anyone to download and embed.
>Why would this be beneficial to RDS?
>Imagine Euphoria-enabled browsers using RDS source,
>games that use Euphoria as scripting language,
>EuScript as a way to write macros for commercial
>programs, etc.
This is a great idea. For all the people who say ...
where's the MAC or Solaris version ... there would be.
Basically removing all OS specific code that isn't
available from the C compiler.
It would probably look more like a scripting language
but I still think it's something that could be very
popular.
Ray Smith
8. Re: Euphoria's Future
Hi Ray,
I have, at least once but maybe more often, suggested to RDS directly, that
they publish his list of enhancement requests and allow this community to
"vote" on them. Then every 'x' months, the top 'y' enhancements get worked
on by RDS. Of course, RDS would have ultimate veto on the voting, but it
would give RDS a better understanding of what its customers actually wanted,
rather than guessing or not even bothering to find out.
>From memory (and thus it maybe wrong) I believe RDS's reply was something
along the lines of "there is no formal list of enhancement requests - just
copies of some emails we chose to keep". From this response, I got the
feeling that RDS doesn't put a high priority on want we ask for, and that
its all a bit too hard to bother with. Plus, from other dealings people have
had with RDS, they are very protective of their own way of viewing Euphoria,
and thus it in many cases it would require a philosophical (a.k.a.
religious?) paradigm shift for externally suggested enhancements to take
form.
I hope I am very, very wrong about this. And Robert, this is not a personal
thing - you have every right to your beliefs - but we don't have to agree
with them, either.
- An Open Euphoria 'Lite' seems a good idea.
- A responsive RDS seems a good idea.
- Alternate renditions of Euphoria interpreters/compliers seems a good idea.
-----
cheers,
Derek Parnell
9. Re: Euphoria's Future
Ray, investigate www.intranets.com to see if it will do what you want...
Also, Intuit just started a free web-based database at www.quickbase.com...
-ck
> Does anyone know of a free web site where a list can
> be created/modified and viewed by many people???
>
> Anyone have any ideas about free web based databases?
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10. Re: Euphoria's Future
On 18 Jan 2001, at 8:36, CK's Yahoo Mail wrote:
> Ray, investigate www.intranets.com to see if it will do what you want...
>
> Also, Intuit just started a free web-based database at www.quickbase.com...
This is an example of a web-based application like i mentioned earlier, with
the following tradeoffs. You use their database manager from any location
on the web, so it's great for traveling sales people, but you have no access
to their code, so you can't possibly change the display or reverse-engineer
it directly, and you can't steal it. They can access your puter as they wish
when you connect, because the pages use javascript. They can cut you off
from your stored data at anytime, you can't access the data unless you
are online. If they are DDOS'd, your database is cut off. For 100megs of
storage and 50 databases, you pay $50 a month for the "premium" plan on
that site. Ouch.
> -ck
>
> > Does anyone know of a free web site where a list can
> > be created/modified and viewed by many people???
The Wiki Web was setup to do just this. I know nothing about it,
nothiinngg...
> > Anyone have any ideas about free web based databases?
My chief concern is verification of data truth if everyone is changing the
data without a trail of responcibility.
Kat,
still wants "goto" in Eu, then she can "exit" out of any loop with the one
command, to a properly well defined and easily read local target.
11. Re: Euphoria's Future
Kat said:
> > Also, Intuit just started a free web-based database at
> www.quickbase.com...
>
> This is an example of a web-based application like i
> mentioned earlier, with
> the following tradeoffs. You use their database manager from
> any location
> on the web, so it's great for traveling sales people, but you
> have no access
> to their code, so you can't possibly change the display or
> reverse-engineer
> it directly, and you can't steal it. They can access your
> puter as they wish
> when you connect, because the pages use javascript. They can
> cut you off
> from your stored data at anytime, you can't access the data unless you
> are online. If they are DDOS'd, your database is cut off. For
> 100megs of
> storage and 50 databases, you pay $50 a month for the
> "premium" plan on
> that site. Ouch.
If you're into ASP you could use Brinkster.com. They'll give you either 20
or 30 megs, and they have free ASP support using MS Access databases. You
could create the page w/out and javascript, so Kat should be happy (still
haven't gotten around to changing my page :), and the servers seem to be
pretty reliable.
Matt Lewis
12. Re: Euphoria's Future
Kat meowed the following:
<some snippage occurred>
> ...They can access your puter as they wish
> when you connect, because the pages use javascript.
> They can cut you off from your stored data at
> anytime, you can't access the data unless you
> are online.
Yeah. Me no likey. But I mentioned it as an option for those who are more
daring than you or I.
> If they are DDOS'd, your database is cut off.
What is DDOS'd again?
> For 100megs of storage and 50 databases,
> you pay $50 a month for the "premium" plan on
> that site. Ouch.
Double ouch!
/me puts on a bandaid.
-ck
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13. Re: Euphoria's Future
Hmmm,
I have looked at possible web based options and am starting to think
maybe a Euphoria program might be a better option.
1. Write a program that reads a questions datafile and allows the user to
select options and save results to a file. Possibly use an entered email
address as the filename.
2. The person now emails the results file to the survey collecter.
3. The survey collecter (writes or has written for them) a program which
reads all the results files and produces a summary.
The reason I was looking at a web based solution was that people could
dynamically add questions (Euphoria features) currently not listed and
anyone could vote for them as soon as they have been added.
Using the above "Euphoria program" idea we would somehow need to produce a
list of questions (Euphoria features) for the Survey before we started.
This would ... I think be a lot of work.
Anyway, if anyone has any good survey ideas let me know.
Thanks for the links to all the web sites.
Ray Smith
14. Re: Euphoria's Future
On 18 Jan 2001, at 13:38, CK's Yahoo Mail wrote:
> > If they are DDOS'd, your database is cut off.
>
> What is DDOS'd again?
Distributed Denial of Service
It's done with more than one puter, as many as hundreds, each using
maximum bandwidth and/or service requests at one service provider, or
groups of providers on one pipe. If you have a flood net of 50 puters on
separate 256K DSL lines, you can shut down a provider on a much larger
bandwidth pipe and with much more puter power. Of course, it's also illegal
and gets the FBI involved. From what i hear, the new internet node software
will be able to detect traffic source / destination / bandwidth, and be able to
detect some DDoS attacks, logging them and shutting them down before
they can do any harm. Afaik, it won't be in use till the new 6-octet ip addys
are in use, but i could be mistaken.
Kat
15. Euphoria's Future
Hi all,
I have been using Euphoria for a few months and have found it to be a good
development language.
I know everyone has different requirements for a language, what I am after
is a langauge that could produce small to medium sized standalone Windows
programs.
With Win32Lib Euphoria can, but Win32Lib is still a way from being complete.
I will probably go back to the Visual Basic beast and distribute 1-2MB of files
with distributions. For me, Euphoria being able produce small standalone
programs was "the" major advantage, but I think some of the current restrictions
of Euphoria will push me back to VB.
I know if I want to I can research windows programming and add all the features
I want myself, but thats not my real interest and if the size and complexity
of the current Win32Lib is anything to go by ... a very major project.
I guess its also I bit disappointing that the current direction of Euphoria
is towards Linux cross development.
I believe an amazing amount of interest and new users would be gained by having
more Windows functionality. I have looked for quiet some time for alternatives
for the Visual Basic, Visual C++ and Delphi products and Euphoria is the
best alternative I have found.
Some good tools / libraries would make a great difference.
Possibly these tools and libraries will appear, but with the current push
towards Linux probably not for quiet some time.
Anyway sorry to bore everyone, I'm not being negative towards Euphoria ...
some people say if the shoe doesn't fit, try another shoe.
Happy Euphoring
Ray Smith
16. Re: Euphoria's Future
>Hi all,
>
>I have been using Euphoria for a few months and have found it to be a good
>development language.
>I know everyone has different requirements for a language, what I am after
>is a langauge that could produce small to medium sized standalone Windows
>programs.
>With Win32Lib Euphoria can, but Win32Lib is still a way from being
complete.
>
>I will probably go back to the Visual Basic beast and distribute 1-2MB of
files
>with distributions. For me, Euphoria being able produce small standalone
>programs was "the" major advantage, but I think some of the current
restrictions
>of Euphoria will push me back to VB.
>
>I know if I want to I can research windows programming and add all the
features
>I want myself, but thats not my real interest and if the size and
complexity
>of the current Win32Lib is anything to go by ... a very major project.
>
>I guess its also I bit disappointing that the current direction of Euphoria
>is towards Linux cross development.
>
>I believe an amazing amount of interest and new users would be gained by
having
>more Windows functionality. I have looked for quiet some time for
alternatives
>for the Visual Basic, Visual C++ and Delphi products and Euphoria is the
>best alternative I have found.
>Some good tools / libraries would make a great difference.
>
>Possibly these tools and libraries will appear, but with the current push
>towards Linux probably not for quiet some time.
>
>Anyway sorry to bore everyone, I'm not being negative towards Euphoria ...
>some people say if the shoe doesn't fit, try another shoe.
>
>Happy Euphoring
>
>Ray Smith
>
My thoughts entirely. What is more, I stated your sentiments about 2 years
ago...
Thanks!
--Warren
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Protect privacy, boycott Intel. Why? Go to
http://www.bigbrotherinside.org for a full explanation.
17. Re: Euphoria's Future
- Posted by Jason Gade <jgade at PCEZ.COM>
Mar 17, 1999
-
Last edited Mar 18, 1999
-----Original Message-----
From: Smith Ray <Ray.Smith at FUJITSU.COM.AU>
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU <EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 4:28 PM
Subject: Euphoria's Future
>I know everyone has different requirements for a language, what I am after
>is a langauge that could produce small to medium sized standalone Windows
>programs.
>With Win32Lib Euphoria can, but Win32Lib is still a way from being
complete.
>
Look into Tcl/Tk or Liberty Basic for your Windows needs. Tcl/Tk is a
scripting language that will let you write code that is portable between
Linux, Windows and I think even Mac.
18. Euphoria's Future
- Posted by Arlie Codina <web.master at FLASHMAIL.COM>
Feb 23, 1999
-
Last edited Feb 24, 1999
Hi Everyone,
There's been a lot of talk about the future of Euphoria. Just yesterday
I visited the web site of Python and and even downloaded a copy. From
this I learn that Python is free including the source code. You can even
modify it and resell it if you like. It's only 3 years older than Euphoria
and it has now become commercially viable. Companies are now writting commercial
software in Python. It has support/library for data base connectivity both
commercial & non-commercial.
Somebody mentioned writting a browser in Euphoria. They did it in Python. My
point exactly is for us take a look at Python as an example. There is a lot
of stuffs going for it now. Let's get excited and contribute more stuffs so
that in no time Euphoria well get to where Python is now.
I would like to invite RDS to download a copy of Python including source
code and take a look at it. I really like the interactive prompt of Python.
Perhaps we can have it in Euphoria. It's really helpful in testing code
fragment specially to beginners like me.
On top of this I still like Euphoria's simplicity. I was too overwhelmed with
all of Python's features. Before anyone comments on this kindly visit first
http://www.python.com to get an accurate picture on what I'm talking
about and more.
Regards,
Arlie Codina
web.master at flashmail.com
19. Re: Euphoria's Future
This comparison with Python brings up a few interesting points.
I think Euphoria is a *great* language, with a lot of potential. But I =
think that there are a couple of key things that will, IMHO, forever =
hinder it (at least as it exists now). Comparing E with Python seems to =
have helped clarify that.
First seems to be E's lack of diversity. For all it's strengths, it's =
bound to the Wintel platform (and DOS). Granted, if you must choose one =
platform to be on that might well be the one to choose, but I have =
difficulty believing a language will grow in acceptance--or =
publicity--unless it's ported to as many platforms as possible. Most Mac =
users (who I think would be the most enthusiastic about E, incidentally) =
aren't likely to know about the language simply because no material =
relevant to them exists. They won't read about it in Mac Weekly. They =
won't download it from a Mac shareware site. Chances are they'll only =
hear of it from a Wintel user. Repeat the scenario for other platforms =
and I think it becomes clear that it is a hinderance.
The second major roadblock to the language, ironically, seems to be it's =
strong points. Run-time index checking. Not allowing initialized =
variables to be used. All the nice, interpreter-based trappings that =
make programming in Euphoria euphoric. All of this is great; but what =
happens when the attempt to port to another platform IS made? We're =
going to have to mold another system environment so that it checks =
everything Euphoria currently checks, returning the same (or at least =
corresponding) error messages, and in many cases doing things the same =
way. What I'm saying is, it seems as if most of Euphoria's strong points =
are not *language specifications*, but rather, specific to this =
particular implementation. (Hold on, here come the comparisons...)
Take for example C. Does C stop you from using uninitialized variables? =
Most implementations probably don't, but in theory it very well could. =
Since variables must be declared before use, couldn't a C compiler check =
for just such a situation and flag it as an error, refusing to compile =
until corrected? And why couldn't extra code be automatically included =
before every index access in a COBOL program so that illegal subscripts =
are caught and the program safely aborts? For that matter, making a =
COBOL interpreter would make it easier to include a lot of other checks =
along with that one, yes? My point is: other languages could have a lot =
of the same things as Euphoria. The declare-before-use and syntax =
elements could easily be made part of a Euphoria specification, but =
could run-time index checking? Or other such built-in nicities? After =
all, if my program's logically sound, it'll run on any =
syntactically-correct E interpreter (or compiler), regardless of whether =
the index accesses are checked. All of which leads to what I think could =
be the biggest hinderance...
Control. The fact that Euphoria isn't a specification of syntax, =
operation and language elements, but a specific implementation of an =
idea, officially the property of a single company (or man). Even if =
"Euphoria" isn't itself trademarked as a programming language name, I =
don't know how Rob feels about others making unauthorized, modified, =
possibly incompatible, =
we'll-implement-it-how-we-want-and-to-heck-with-the-run-time-checks =
variants of his brainchild. Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying he should =
"let go" of the language, release a specification and encourage others =
to create their own interpreters or even compilers (taking either a =
Java-like or Linux-like stance). But I think if widespread usage is the =
goal, that is what's going to have to happen--either with Rob's blessing =
or against his wishes. I don't think C would have the widespread =
popularity it enjoys if even the mighty Microsoft were the only one who =
sold a compiler, dictating every minute detail of implementation.
Euphoria might eventually become well-known, but if so I don't think it =
will be the same Euphoria that we all know and love. I like it the way =
it is now; I don't think it needs to change. While I'd like to see other =
platforms supported (but only if at the core identical to the plain DOS =
version), I don't think some of the compromises that might need to be =
made to achieve stardom are worth it.
Just my few cents...
Rod Jackson
----------
From: Arlie Codina[SMTP:web.master at FLASHMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 6:21 PM
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Euphoria's Future
Hi Everyone,
There's been a lot of talk about the future of Euphoria. Just yesterday
I visited the web site of Python and and even downloaded a copy. From
this I learn that Python is free including the source code. You can even
modify it and resell it if you like. It's only 3 years older than =
Euphoria
and it has now become commercially viable. Companies are now writting =
commercial
software in Python. It has support/library for data base connectivity =
both
commercial & non-commercial.
Somebody mentioned writting a browser in Euphoria. They did it in =
Python. My
point exactly is for us take a look at Python as an example. There is a =
lot
of stuffs going for it now. Let's get excited and contribute more stuffs =
so
that in no time Euphoria well get to where Python is now.
I would like to invite RDS to download a copy of Python including source
code and take a look at it. I really like the interactive prompt of =
Python. Perhaps we can have it in Euphoria. It's really helpful in =
testing code
fragment specially to beginners like me.
On top of this I still like Euphoria's simplicity. I was too overwhelmed =
with
all of Python's features. Before anyone comments on this kindly visit =
first
http://www.python.com to get an accurate picture on what I'm talking
about and more.
Regards,
Arlie Codina
web.master at flashmail.com
