1. Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
- Posted by akusaya at gmx.net
Feb 14, 2006
R> If EDB is easily corrupted, why have I not had any confirmed reports of
R> corruption? I know that a lot of people are using it. I have databases
R> that are years old and are updated every day, no problem.
R> database.e has been very stable since it was created a few years ago.
R> I don't know of any bugs that would cause corruption. The only
R> temporary "corruption" that has been reported has been due to things like
R> copying a database from Windows to Linux in "text" mode.
Have you ever tried to open an EDB file with 50 process
(no threads on Eu, yet!) simultaneously and write it?
R> Have you benchmarked PHP against Euphoria?
R> It's 140x slower than the Euphoria interpreter on sieve.
R> 517x slower than the Euphoria to C translator.
Yes I know Eu is very fast compared to PHP. However that is not what
we need for websites. Moreover, who wants to use PHP for doing sieve?
If sieve were really needed, one could use C and call the sieve
function from Eu or PHP and that will be faster.
One more thing is, how if 100 users request the same page at one time
period (which is typical for a website). Wouldn't there be 100 exu
processes running simultaneously? How about the startup time?
OK, I tested the exu runtime from my webhosting server.
date>tgl; for((i=0;i<100;i++)); do echo a|./ex examliat.ex ; done; date>>tgl
cat tgl
output:
Tue Feb 14 14:28:25 GMT 2006
Tue Feb 14 14:28:29 GMT 2006
It needs 4 seconds to run. It is Eu 2.4. I havent tried Eu 2.5. Hope
it is not too bad.
Couldn't you just say that Eu is not really suited for serving
webpages? (no offense)
2. Re: Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
akusaya wrote:
>
> R> If EDB is easily corrupted, why have I not had any confirmed reports of
> R> corruption? I know that a lot of people are using it. I have databases
> R> that are years old and are updated every day, no problem.
> R> database.e has been very stable since it was created a few years ago.
> R> I don't know of any bugs that would cause corruption. The only
> R> temporary "corruption" that has been reported has been due to things like
> R> copying a database from Windows to Linux in "text" mode.
>
> Have you ever tried to open an EDB file with 50 process
> (no threads on Eu, yet!) simultaneously and write it?
Yes this is a problem.
> R> Have you benchmarked PHP against Euphoria?
> R> It's 140x slower than the Euphoria interpreter on sieve.
> R> 517x slower than the Euphoria to C translator.
>
> Yes I know Eu is very fast compared to PHP. However that is not what
> we need for websites. Moreover, who wants to use PHP for doing sieve?
> If sieve were really needed, one could use C and call the sieve
> function from Eu or PHP and that will be faster.
Yes. Euphoria is much faster than PHP across the board. I don't know why Robert
compares Eu to PHP using Sieve, but we'll get a better idea as to exactly how
fast Euphoria is in comparison to other languages once Jason finishes his
language shootout benchmarks and tests them.
> One more thing is, how if 100 users request the same page at one time
> period (which is typical for a website). Wouldn't there be 100 exu
> processes running simultaneously? How about the startup time?
>
> OK, I tested the exu runtime from my webhosting server.
>
> date>tgl; for((i=0;i<100;i++)); do echo a|./ex examliat.ex ; done; date>>tgl
> cat tgl
>
> output:
> Tue Feb 14 14:28:25 GMT 2006
> Tue Feb 14 14:28:29 GMT 2006
>
> It needs 4 seconds to run. It is Eu 2.4. I havent tried Eu 2.5. Hope
> it is not too bad.
Get Euphoria 2.5 and try running it with 10,000 requests to view the page at the
same time. That is a typical high traffic page. Then perhaps after that, try
10,000,000 requests at the same time. That is typical for sites like Yahoo, MSN,
Google, etc.
> Couldn't you just say that Eu is not really suited for serving
> webpages? (no offense)
Euphoria is fine for CGI. It isn't as good as Perl or PHP, but that is mostly
because of the lack of complete CGI support libraries. Hopefully that will change
with the ESL project.
Regards,
Vincent
3. Re: Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
Vincent wrote:
>
> akusaya wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > Yes I know Eu is very fast compared to PHP. However that is not what
> > we need for websites. Moreover, who wants to use PHP for doing sieve?
> > If sieve were really needed, one could use C and call the sieve
> > function from Eu or PHP and that will be faster.
>
> Yes. Euphoria is much faster than PHP across the board. I don't know why
> Robert
> compares Eu to PHP using Sieve, but we'll get a better idea as to exactly how
> fast Euphoria is in comparison to other languages once Jason finishes his
> language
> shootout benchmarks and tests them.
Yeah, that's on my to-do list. I'm kind of working on ESL right now, though (see
below). I'll probably bounce around between projects like that but it is better
than not coding at all...
>
> > One more thing is, how if 100 users request the same page at one time
> > period (which is typical for a website). Wouldn't there be 100 exu
> > processes running simultaneously? How about the startup time?
> >
> > OK, I tested the exu runtime from my webhosting server.
> >
> > date>tgl; for((i=0;i<100;i++)); do echo a|./ex examliat.ex ; done;
> > date>>tgl
> > cat tgl
> >
> > output:
> > Tue Feb 14 14:28:25 GMT 2006
> > Tue Feb 14 14:28:29 GMT 2006
> >
> > It needs 4 seconds to run. It is Eu 2.4. I havent tried Eu 2.5. Hope
> > it is not too bad.
>
> Get Euphoria 2.5 and try running it with 10,000 requests to view the page at
> the same time. That is a typical high traffic page. Then perhaps after that,
> try 10,000,000 requests at the same time. That is typical for sites like
> Yahoo,
> MSN, Google, etc.
It really comes down to the proper tool for the job. PHP was designed for the
web, and I think Google uses a lot of Python. Plus those companies have massive
clusters and server farms with load balancing and all that kind of stuff that is
way above *my* head. But then again, *most* web/networking stuff is way above my
head. 
> > Couldn't you just say that Eu is not really suited for serving
> > webpages? (no offense)
>
> Euphoria is fine for CGI. It isn't as good as Perl or PHP, but that is mostly
> because of the lack of complete CGI support libraries. Hopefully that will
> change
> with the ESL project.
[Switch topic]
ESL project. Yeah. I'm kind of working on stuff, basically filesys.e right now
and maybe seqops.e (sequence operations) in the near future. I don't think ESL
has any specifications for CGI-type stuff and I certainly don't know anything
about it. So, I don't know.
If it wasn't for Jeremy Peterson I think the ESL project would be about dead.
I'm taking his code as a basic blueprint and re-creating it to fit my own ideas.
Hopefully the rest of the team will accept my code once I release it, or else
I'll just release it on its own.
--
"Any programming problem can be solved by adding a level of indirection."
--anonymous
"Any performance problem can be solved by removing a level of indirection."
--M. Haertel
j.
4. Re: Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
akusaya wrote:
> R> If EDB is easily corrupted, why have I not had any confirmed reports of
> R> corruption? I know that a lot of people are using it. I have databases
> R> that are years old and are updated every day, no problem.
> R> database.e has been very stable since it was created a few years ago.
> R> I don't know of any bugs that would cause corruption. The only
> R> temporary "corruption" that has been reported has been due to things like
> R> copying a database from Windows to Linux in "text" mode.
>
> Have you ever tried to open an EDB file with 50 process
> (no threads on Eu, yet!) simultaneously and write it?
I hope you used DB_LOCK_SHARED and DB_LOCK_EXCLUSIVE
when you opened the database, like you are supposed to do,
otherwise you are eventually going to get corruption.
> R> Have you benchmarked PHP against Euphoria?
> R> It's 140x slower than the Euphoria interpreter on sieve.
> R> 517x slower than the Euphoria to C translator.
>
> Yes I know Eu is very fast compared to PHP. However that is not what
> we need for websites. Moreover, who wants to use PHP for doing sieve?
> If sieve were really needed, one could use C and call the sieve
> function from Eu or PHP and that will be faster.
>
> One more thing is, how if 100 users request the same page at one time
> period (which is typical for a website).
The RDS site occasionally has 2 or 3 users requesting the same
page at the same time. Most pages are just simple HTML that's
served directly by the Web server software, without Euphoria
being involved. By looking at debug log files, I
sometimes see 2 or 3 people running esearch.exu at the same time,
but that's rare. Usually it's just one at a time.
So it depends how you define "typical", but 100 sounds like
a very large commercial site.
> Wouldn't there be 100 exu
> processes running simultaneously? How about the startup time?
Yes there would be, but they would share the same code pages
in memory, at least with Linux/FreeBSD. i.e. one copy of the
interpreter code (or translator runtime). With the new multitasking,
you might be able to use non-blocking I/O and cooperative
multitasking to have a single program handling 100 requests.
> OK, I tested the exu runtime from my webhosting server.
>
> date>tgl; for((i=0;i<100;i++)); do echo a|./ex examliat.ex ; done; date>>tgl
> cat tgl
>
> output:
> Tue Feb 14 14:28:25 GMT 2006
> Tue Feb 14 14:28:29 GMT 2006
>
> It needs 4 seconds to run. It is Eu 2.4. I havent tried Eu 2.5. Hope
> it is not too bad.
So that's 0.04 seconds start-up time.
You should try a translated/compiled version of the Euphoria program.
No loading of the interpeter or parsing.
PHP always runs an interpreter and parses.
> Couldn't you just say that Eu is not really suited for serving
> webpages? (no offense)
I'm sure PHP has some convenient features for CGI that Euphoria
doesn't have, but Euphoria has been fine for everything I've
wanted to do, whereas PHP would have been a dismal failure (by itself)
at searching 100Mb of archived messages. It would also be pretty
useless at storing/retrieving general Euphoria data, like I like to do.
By the way, EUforum is run by a Euphoria program. It reads and writes
an EDS database with every message posted.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
5. Re: Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
I think Euphoria isn't as good as PHP or Perl for CGI related tasks since, as
pointed out, these were developed for the web.
At least in theory, I can't understand why Euphoria can't be as good as (or even
better than) PHP and Perl given the proper libraries are developed.
In relation with many processes running at the same time, I asked one or two
months ago if someone had used FASTCGI. Receiving no response I assumed no one
was using it. This resolves the problem of many processes open at the same time.
I think it would be a good idea to compile Euphoria with FASTCGI for those who
are developing for the web.
Please read: http://www.fastcgi.com/devkit/doc/fastcgi-whitepaper/fastcgi.htm
JG
6. Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
- Posted by akusaya at gmx.net
Feb 14, 2006
R> http://members.aol.com/chriscrylex/EUSQLite/eusql.html
R> It works great.
Yes, it's great. How about multi-user?
>> - form processing (not just post and get but also
>> file uploads)
R> If you don't know how to do this, know this, it's
R> easy. Take a few minutes to learn about miltipart
R> forms and then 20 minutes to add the function to you
R> cgi lib.
And another few days for finding and fixing bugs? (esp. with the
multipart form)
R> An entities function should take no more than 5 or 10
R> min to write.
Yes, correct. And everyone can make it. And there will be lots of
versions.
And still more.
- Cookies
- Session handling
- Encryption (don't store users password in db in raw form)
- modifying header
- getting remote file
- sending mail
(yes that is too much for average use)
Isn't it now, when people move from executables to web applications,
we should have something like WebLib that is as powerful and as
widely used as Win32Lib? :D :D :D <- just a suggestion, hope someone
can start it and many people support him/her
7. Re: Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
- Posted by Ron Weidner <xecronix at yahoo.com>
Feb 14, 2006
-
Last edited Feb 15, 2006
>
> Yes, [eusqlite] it's great. How about multi-user?
>
Multi user wasn't an original "request", you just said
you didn't like EDS. However, multi-user is very easy
to simulate via your RDMS interface.
> >> - form processing (not just post and get but also
> >> file uploads)
>
> R> If you don't know how to do this, know this, it's
> R> easy. Take a few minutes to learn about
> R> multipart forms and then 20 minutes to add the
> R> function to your cgi lib.
>
> And another few days for finding and fixing bugs?
> (esp. with the multipart form)
>
If you takes you a few days to debug fine. But if you
want to decrease that time, try porting a Pascal or C
CGI lib that has already been tested. You are only
trying to add one function to an _already_ existing
CGI lib. This is a simple and quick task, especially
if you cheat. :)
> R> An entities function should take no more than 5
> R> or 10 min to write.
>
> Yes, correct. And everyone can make it. And there
> will be lots of versions.
>
We have all heard of sourceforge. As of 5 minutes
ago, there were exactly 11 Euphoria projects hosted
there. 4 of them were never really that active. Some
of them have never had a release. That is pitiful in
my opinion. Does this fact indicate that the Eu
community has never worried about "Lots of versions"
before? You decide. But if you decide this is a
problem, you could start to rectify the situation by
hosting your next project somewhere like sourceforge.
The archive is a great idea, please don't get me wrong
about this. The only problem, in my opinion, is that
it really doesn't foster community projects. This can
lead to projects going stale way too early.
** Rob **
I believe this might be an opportunity for improvement
here. Have you considered adding a mini "sourceforge
like" project management to http://rapideuphoria.com?
Say one that _only_ hosts EU projects? Even if it had
less features than SF it could still be useful...
Just a thought.
> And still more.
> - Cookies
Already covered in my CGI tutorial. (With source
code)
> - Session handling
It's not that hard to do. This could also be
simulated in a database.
> - Encryption (don't store users password
> in db in raw form)
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?dos=on&win=on&lnx=on&gen=on&keywords=encryption
or
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/blowfish.zip
> - modifying header
Already covered in my CGI tutorial (With source code)
> - getting remote file
Here is a Linux example... What is needed is a
cross-platform sockets lib. I would consider porting
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/socketlib.zip to use
winsock if I had a windows machine. But I don't and
won't.
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/webutils.zip
> - sending mail
again, done...
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/smtp-lib.zip
>
> (yes that is too much for average use)
>
> Isn't it now, when people move from executables to
> web applications, we should have something like
> WebLib that is as powerful and as widely used as
> Win32Lib? :D :D :D <- just a suggestion, hope
someone
> can start it and many people support him/her
>
I see in the archives you have contributed some code.
So, I'll assume that you are a motivatied programmer
and I'll offer you a challenge. I have a fairly good
start on such a library. I'll start a new project for
it on sourceforge today. (The process takes several
days to complete). When I get the ok from
sourceforge, I'll post the information about the
project here. Then I'll match you function for
function for any useful addition you write. Do you
want to participate? If you do, in no time at all you
will have that dream lib you crave. C'mon! It will be
fun! :)
--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP Software developer for hire.
8. Re: Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
Ron Weidner wrote:
> ** Rob **
> I believe this might be an opportunity for improvement
> here. Have you considered adding a mini "sourceforge
> like" project management to rapideuphoria.com?
> Say one that _only_ hosts EU projects? Even if it had
> less features than SF it could still be useful...
> Just a thought.
It's an interesting idea. Thanks.
Though I really have to give first priority to
improving Euphoria itself.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
9. Re: Re[4]: Euphoria CGI Success
> I see in the archives you have contributed some
> code. So, I'll assume that you are a motivatied
> programmer and I'll offer you a challenge. I have a
> fairly good start on such a library. I'll start a
> new project for it on sourceforge today. (The
process
> takes several days to complete). When I get the ok
> from sourceforge, I'll post the information about
the
> project here. Then I'll match you function for
> function for any useful addition you write. Do you
> want to participate? If you do, in no time at all
> you will have that dream lib you crave. C'mon! It
> will be> fun! :)
>
Wow! That was the fastest I've ever seen Sourceforge
approve a new project. In any case, I took the code
from my Euphoira CGI tutorial, made a package for it,
and released LGPL on SF.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/eucgi
The code contained in the package doesn't actually fit
the description of the project. The description is
more like a goal in this case. In any case, let me
know when you want to start or better yet, e-mail some
code to add. :)
--
Ronald Weidner
http://www.techport80.com
PHP Software developer for hire.
