1. nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
void wrote:
> Btw. popularity is something that could be greatly improved by making it
> more accessable for beginners, f.i. after install people want to see an
> easy
> and friendly user interface.
Actually, this is something that I think might need some work. I've
given copies of Euphoria (along with PKUNZIP) to some of my high school
students, and in most cases, they can't figure out how to begin the
install.
Now, some might say that they shouldn't be trying to learn programming
if they can't handle that little ordeal, but I think that's not quite
fair. Unfortunately (IMVHO) we live in a Windows world, and most kids
don't know DOS. They've never heard of PKUNZIP, decompression is
transparently done for them. That's their world, and while I believe
they can learn to program right where they're at, I think having to jump
through unfamiliar hoops limits them.
A Windows-style installer sounds like a good idea. Not that Rob
necessarily needs to do it, if someone else can. It would help alot, at
least to the newbies in the programming realm (we can't expect them all
to jump in on their own.) As for an interface AFTER install... you're
talking about something like the QBasic screen, interactive? Hmmm, a
good idea as a seperate program I think--possibly with newbies being
asked if they want to jump to it after install. Perhaps something like
what 'E!' tried to be, with more features, using some of the
Eu-written-in-Eu code that's out there....
> And clear examples ("for dummies") for
> everything, from a simple "hello world" to creating and accessing DLL's.
Ah, that sounds like you're wanting a book, which is another good idea
that maybe someone will write someday. If it could be included as text
with Euphoria, that would be even better!
Rod Jackson
2. Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
On Monday 11 February 2002 07:19 am, Rod Jackson wrote:
> A Windows-style installer sounds like a good idea. Not that Rob
> necessarily needs to do it, if someone else can. It would help alot, at
> least to the newbies in the programming realm (we can't expect them all
> to jump in on their own.)
The installation is a big turn-off for lots of people. Not just those who
don't know how to install a program, but also for those who are quite capable
of doing it themselves, but who are expecting a professionally prepared
package.
The first group probably haven't experienced anything but nice windows
installs, so they panic, and the second group know full well that there are
any number of ready-to-use installers available, some of them free of charge.
No doubt they wonder why no one bothered to use one of these.
Some people on this list objected to any installer that wasn't written in
Euphoria, but as far as I can see, that is a bogus argument. We could
apply the same reasoning and say that no one should use WinZip or
PKUNZIP, but each file should contain its own unzipping code.
My suggestion, provide separate downloads for :
DOS (~600K),
Windows (with Win32Lib and Judith's IDE - under 2 megs) and
Linux (~600k).
The DOS installer is fine. Linux doesn't need an installer.
Use a professional Windows installer for the Windows version,
and include the files you need to write Windows programs!
Anyone could prepare the install package, it's just an hour's work.
But Rob would have to make it available on the web.
Irv
3. Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
- Posted by encephalon1 at msn.com
Feb 11, 2002
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1B30A.543E2BD0
You're right, most kids don't know DOS; however, most kids don't want to learn a
programming language, either. Nearly all of the programmers I know, young and
old alike (including myself), learned DOS in order to learn a language of some
sort. I do agree that Eu could use an installer of some sort, but one way or
another they will eventually have to learn some kind of command driven OS; it's a
programmer friendly environment.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Jackson
Subject: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
void wrote:
> Btw. popularity is something that could be greatly improved by making it
> more accessable for beginners, f.i. after install people want to see an
> easy
> and friendly user interface.
Actually, this is something that I think might need some work. I've
given copies of Euphoria (along with PKUNZIP) to some of my high school
students, and in most cases, they can't figure out how to begin the
install.
Now, some might say that they shouldn't be trying to learn programming
if they can't handle that little ordeal, but I think that's not quite
fair. Unfortunately (IMVHO) we live in a Windows world, and most kids
don't know DOS. They've never heard of PKUNZIP, decompression is
transparently done for them. That's their world, and while I believe
they can learn to program right where they're at, I think having to jump
through unfamiliar hoops limits them.
A Windows-style installer sounds like a good idea. Not that Rob
necessarily needs to do it, if someone else can. It would help alot, at
least to the newbies in the programming realm (we can't expect them all
to jump in on their own.) As for an interface AFTER install... you're
talking about something like the QBasic screen, interactive? Hmmm, a
good idea as a seperate program I think--possibly with newbies being
asked if they want to jump to it after install. Perhaps something like
what 'E!' tried to be, with more features, using some of the
Eu-written-in-Eu code that's out there....
> And clear examples ("for dummies") for
> everything, from a simple "hello world" to creating and accessing DLL's.
Ah, that sounds like you're wanting a book, which is another good idea
that maybe someone will write someday. If it could be included as text
with Euphoria, that would be even better!
Rod Jackson
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1B30A.543E2BD0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You're right, most kids don't know DOS; however, most kids don't want to
learn a programming language, either. Nearly all of the programmers I know,
young and old alike (including myself), learned DOS in order to learn
a language of some sort. I do agree that Eu could use an installer of
some sort, but one way or another they will eventually have to learn some kind of
command driven OS; it's a programmer friendly environment.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">-----
Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial;
COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Rod Jackson</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 11, 2002 9:40 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT:
10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> EUforum</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Subject:</B> nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh
perspective?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>============ The Euphoria Mailing List
============<BR><BR><BR>void wrote:<BR>> Btw. popularity is something that
could be greatly improved by making it<BR>> more accessable for beginners,
f.i. after install people want to see an<BR>> easy<BR>> and friendly user
interface.<BR><BR>Actually, this is something that I think might need some work.
I've<BR>given copies of Euphoria (along with PKUNZIP) to some of my high
school<BR>students, and in most cases, they can't figure out how to begin
the<BR>install.<BR><BR>Now, some might say that they shouldn't be trying to learn
programming<BR>if they can't handle that little ordeal, but I think that's not
quite<BR>fair. Unfortunately (IMVHO) we live in a Windows world, and most
kids<BR>don't know DOS. They've never heard of PKUNZIP, decompression
is<BR>transparently done for them. That's their world, and while I
believe<BR>they can learn to program ri
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1B30A.543E2BD0--
4. Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
Hi Rod,
Well, I did it in part. Windows installer, setting file relations, icons and so
on. Then I'd have to make settings at autoexec.bat so I'd need a small app to
do it. Than came this big translation work so I'm out of time but I can work on
weekends if it will help you.
-- Euler
On 11 Feb 2002, at 12:19, Rod Jackson wrote:
>
>
> void wrote:
> > Btw. popularity is something that could be greatly improved by making it
> > more accessable for beginners, f.i. after install people want to see an
> > easy
> > and friendly user interface.
>
> Actually, this is something that I think might need some work. I've
> given copies of Euphoria (along with PKUNZIP) to some of my high school
> students, and in most cases, they can't figure out how to begin the
> install.
>
> Now, some might say that they shouldn't be trying to learn programming
> if they can't handle that little ordeal, but I think that's not quite
> fair. Unfortunately (IMVHO) we live in a Windows world, and most kids
> don't know DOS. They've never heard of PKUNZIP, decompression is
> transparently done for them. That's their world, and while I believe
> they can learn to program right where they're at, I think having to jump
> through unfamiliar hoops limits them.
>
> A Windows-style installer sounds like a good idea. Not that Rob
> necessarily needs to do it, if someone else can. It would help alot, at
> least to the newbies in the programming realm (we can't expect them all
> to jump in on their own.) As for an interface AFTER install... you're
> talking about something like the QBasic screen, interactive? Hmmm, a
> good idea as a seperate program I think--possibly with newbies being
> asked if they want to jump to it after install. Perhaps something like
> what 'E!' tried to be, with more features, using some of the
> Eu-written-in-Eu code that's out there....
>
> > And clear examples ("for dummies") for
> > everything, from a simple "hello world" to creating and accessing DLL's.
>
> Ah, that sounds like you're wanting a book, which is another good idea
> that maybe someone will write someday. If it could be included as text
> with Euphoria, that would be even better!
>
>
> Rod Jackson
>
>
>
>
5. Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
Where's Travis with his Installer project ?
Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Euler German" <efgerman at myrealbox.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
>
> Hi Rod,
>
> Well, I did it in part. Windows installer, setting file relations, icons and
> so
> on. Then I'd have to make settings at autoexec.bat so I'd need a small app to
> do it. Than came this big translation work so I'm out of time but I can work
> on
> weekends if it will help you.
>
> -- Euler
>
> On 11 Feb 2002, at 12:19, Rod Jackson wrote:
>
> >
> > void wrote:
> > > Btw. popularity is something that could be greatly improved by making it
> > > more accessable for beginners, f.i. after install people want to see an
> > > easy
> > > and friendly user interface.
> >
> > Actually, this is something that I think might need some work. I've
> > given copies of Euphoria (along with PKUNZIP) to some of my high school
> > students, and in most cases, they can't figure out how to begin the
> > install.
> >
> > Now, some might say that they shouldn't be trying to learn programming
> > if they can't handle that little ordeal, but I think that's not quite
> > fair. Unfortunately (IMVHO) we live in a Windows world, and most kids
> > don't know DOS. They've never heard of PKUNZIP, decompression is
> > transparently done for them. That's their world, and while I believe
> > they can learn to program right where they're at, I think having to jump
> > through unfamiliar hoops limits them.
> >
> > A Windows-style installer sounds like a good idea. Not that Rob
> > necessarily needs to do it, if someone else can. It would help alot, at
> > least to the newbies in the programming realm (we can't expect them all
> > to jump in on their own.) As for an interface AFTER install... you're
> > talking about something like the QBasic screen, interactive? Hmmm, a
> > good idea as a seperate program I think--possibly with newbies being
> > asked if they want to jump to it after install. Perhaps something like
> > what 'E!' tried to be, with more features, using some of the
> > Eu-written-in-Eu code that's out there....
> >
> > > And clear examples ("for dummies") for
> > > everything, from a simple "hello world" to creating and accessing DLL's.
> >
> > Ah, that sounds like you're wanting a book, which is another good idea
> > that maybe someone will write someday. If it could be included as text
> > with Euphoria, that would be even better!
> >
> >
> > Rod Jackson
> >
> >
>
>
>
6. Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
As far as I know too busy with his own business. He also has problems
with Topica's list so we could say he's kind of retired for awhile. You
can reach him personally.
-- Euler
On 12 Feb 2002, at 18:42, Martin Stachon wrote:
>
> Where's Travis with his Installer project ?
>
> Martin
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Euler German" <efgerman at myrealbox.com>
> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
>
>
> > Hi Rod,
> >
> > Well, I did it in part. Windows installer, setting file relations,
> > icons and so on. Then I'd have to make settings at autoexec.bat so I'd
> > need a small app to do it. Than came this big translation work so I'm
> > out of time but I can work on weekends if it will help you.
> >
> > -- Euler
> >
> > On 11 Feb 2002, at 12:19, Rod Jackson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > void wrote:
> > > > Btw. popularity is something that could be greatly improved by
> > > > making it more accessable for beginners, f.i. after install people
> > > > want to see an easy and friendly user interface.
> > >
> > > Actually, this is something that I think might need some work. I've
> > > given copies of Euphoria (along with PKUNZIP) to some of my high
> > > school students, and in most cases, they can't figure out how to
> > > begin the install.
> > >
> > > Now, some might say that they shouldn't be trying to learn
> > > programming if they can't handle that little ordeal, but I think
> > > that's not quite fair. Unfortunately (IMVHO) we live in a Windows
> > > world, and most kids don't know DOS. They've never heard of PKUNZIP,
> > > decompression is transparently done for them. That's their world,
> > > and while I believe they can learn to program right where they're
> > > at, I think having to jump through unfamiliar hoops limits them.
> > >
> > > A Windows-style installer sounds like a good idea. Not that Rob
> > > necessarily needs to do it, if someone else can. It would help alot,
> > > at least to the newbies in the programming realm (we can't expect
> > > them all to jump in on their own.) As for an interface AFTER
> > > install... you're talking about something like the QBasic screen,
> > > interactive? Hmmm, a good idea as a seperate program I
> > > think--possibly with newbies being asked if they want to jump to it
> > > after install. Perhaps something like what 'E!' tried to be, with
> > > more features, using some of the Eu-written-in-Eu code that's out
> > > there....
> > >
> > > > And clear examples ("for dummies") for
> > > > everything, from a simple "hello world" to creating and accessing
> > > > DLL's.
> > >
> > > Ah, that sounds like you're wanting a book, which is another good
> > > idea that maybe someone will write someday. If it could be included
> > > as text with Euphoria, that would be even better!
> > >
> > >
> > > Rod Jackson
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
7. Re: nicer Install? (Was: RE: GOTO - A fresh perspective?)
> As far as I know too busy with his own business. He also has problems
> with Topica's list so we could say he's kind of retired for awhile. You
> can reach him personally.
>
> -- Euler
Please could you tell me his e-mail address ? It changed
several times since the last time I wrote him.
Martin
