1. code pages I think
Hello fellow euphorians
I thought I would just jot off a simple little program to
interchange capitals with small letters, vice versa and etc. -
simple text manipulation stuff (I thought).
I am using text files created in notepad, written in
Portuguese. I made a table in my euphoria program of the
varios accented vowels and their small/capital counterparts.
you know, like
if s[k] = 'a' <with an accent> then
s[k] = 'A' <with an accent>
end if
Well, that just made a mess. Apparently what Notepad thinks
is different from what msdos thinks. I looked up the portuguese
codepage in my msdos manual but that wasn't the problem.
Must be that Notepad uses some other codepage?
I tried running the text files through Word and saving as
msdos text instead of just text and that was better, but some
letters are still off. And that leaves me with the problem of
how does my text routine know whether a text file was saved
as msdos text or just text? Notepad seems to read either and
display them correctly.
I could make two tables I guess, but how to know which to use?
A rather confused JOHN
2. Re: code pages I think
Hi John,
> I thought I would just jot off a simple little program to
> interchange capitals with small letters, vice versa and etc. -
> simple text manipulation stuff (I thought).
> I am using text files created in notepad, written in
> Portuguese. I made a table in my euphoria program of the
> varios accented vowels and their small/capital counterparts.
> you know, like
> if s[k] = 'a' <with an accent> then
> s[k] = 'A' <with an accent>
> end if
...........
> Must be that Notepad uses some other codepage?
...........
> I could make two tables I guess, but how to know which to use?
This is the common problem for all
non-english languages.
Windows and MSDOS has different codepages.
Windows - ANSI, MSDOS - 'extended' ASCII.
On Windows, Terminal font for Portuguese CP
must be the same as MSDOS Portuguese CP.
Notepad, Word and so on (Win based) use ANSI.
ED, Edit, QB, TB (all DOS based) use ASCII.
ROM BIOS - ASCII.
In Russian, for example, there are more
than 5 *different* codepages --
DOS, Win, Mac. ISO, KOI8-r(Linux),
KOI7- for old Russian PC, and more ...
And we use recoding programs to convert
simple text from Notepad to ED and
from ED to Notepad -- impossible to read
Russian comments at all.
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
3. Re: code pages I think
4. Re: code pages I think
It's not true that Win32 Notepad isn't capable of ASCII 'extended'
(=IBM437)! Open Notepad, select 'EDIT', 'Set Font', 'Terminal'. Now all
your beloved ASCII extended will be shown.
At least on my machine it's working like this.
Have a nice day, Rolf
5. Re: code pages I think
Hi Rolf,
> It's not true that Win32 Notepad isn't capable of ASCII 'extended'
> (=IBM437)! Open Notepad, select 'EDIT', 'Set Font', 'Terminal'. Now all
> your beloved ASCII extended will be shown.
> At least on my machine it's working like this.
> Have a nice day, Rolf
My Notepad.exe v4.00.950, from MS,
Windows 95, Russian language,
*REALLY* has *NO*
'Set Font' option and I *can not* change
font when I use this useful small program.
So, if I load the Eu program from ed.ex
into this Notepad, I see mumbo/jumbo
instead my Russian comments.
What a nice day, think please ? 
But I can work around this problem,
I love just ed.ex and DOS32
for ever and a day!
Redards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
6. Re: code pages I think
Igor Kachan wrote:
> ...
> 'Set Font' option and I *can not* change
> font when I use this useful small program.
> So, if I load the Eu program from ed.ex
> into this Notepad, I see mumbo/jumbo
> instead my Russian comments.
Hi Igor,
I checked it again, and I found:
Notepad Version 4.0(Build 1381: Service Pack 6) under NT 4.0
(english).
Under 'Edit', one may select 'Set Font' and then in the font Window one
may select a font. Also inside this font window there is the possibility
to select 'Script'. 'Script' contains only one choice here for the
Terminal font: OEM/DOS . I should mention that I'm using an english
version of NT 4.0. May be you have to install fonts.
Anyway, have a nice day, Rolf
7. Re: code pages I think
>Hi Rolf,
>
> > It's not true that Win32 Notepad isn't capable of ASCII 'extended'
> > (=IBM437)! Open Notepad, select 'EDIT', 'Set Font', 'Terminal'. Now all
> > your beloved ASCII extended will be shown.
> > At least on my machine it's working like this.
> > Have a nice day, Rolf
>
>My Notepad.exe v4.00.950, from MS,
>Windows 95, Russian language,
>*REALLY* has *NO*
>'Set Font' option and I *can not* change
>font when I use this useful small program.
>So, if I load the Eu program from ed.ex
>into this Notepad, I see mumbo/jumbo
>instead my Russian comments.
What if I made a windows euphoria editor using win32lib? Do you think it
would use the "terminal" font? NO! And even worse, I found a true type font
that has the same set of characters, and do you think that would work?
NO!!!! This has me stumped, as I used a font selection dialog box to select
the font, and it worked with every other font I tried. What is wrong with
the win32lib font routines? (this true type font is called "MS LindDraw" and
is included with microsoft office, but the characters don't join up
vertically like the "terminal" font and is generally not as good fof what I
wanted it for)
This would be especially annoying if I distributed a program and people
complained that they can't use any font they want to. BTW, I am not making
an editor, I just used it as an example. I know I have brought this up
before, but I would like to see win32lib support *every* font, even if it is
old, ugly and rarely used.
Daryl van den Brink
8. Re: code pages I think
Hello Daryl,
----- Original Message -----
From: <daryl_vdb at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> What if I made a windows euphoria editor using win32lib? Do you think it
> would use the "terminal" font? NO! And even worse, I found a true type
font
> that has the same set of characters, and do you think that would work?
> NO!!!! This has me stumped, as I used a font selection dialog box to
select
> the font, and it worked with every other font I tried. What is wrong with
> the win32lib font routines? (this true type font is called "MS LindDraw"
and
> is included with microsoft office, but the characters don't join up
> vertically like the "terminal" font and is generally not as good fof what
I
> wanted it for)
>
> This would be especially annoying if I distributed a program and people
> complained that they can't use any font they want to. BTW, I am not making
> an editor, I just used it as an example. I know I have brought this up
> before, but I would like to see win32lib support *every* font, even if it
is
> old, ugly and rarely used.
This is a limitation with the setFont() routine in win32lib. The current
version assumes that only TrueType ANSI character fonts will be used. This
has been enhanced in the next version by expanding the attributes parameter.
Examples:
setFont(id, "Marlett", 12,
{
Normal,
0,
0,
0,
SYMBOL_CHARSET,
0,
0,
0,
FS_SYMBOL
})
setFont(id, "Terminal", 12,
{
Normal,
0,
0,
0,
EOM_CHARSET,
0,
0,
0,
FS_MODERN
})
------
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
"To finish a job quickly, go slower."
9. Re: code pages I think
Looking good. Now, when I use a font dialog, I'll also need to know if it's
SYMBOL_CHARSET or EOM_CHARSET etc. Oh well, thanks for improving it, and now
I know I can (hopefully) use every font on my computer. Can't wait for the
next version.
Thanks again,
Daryl van den Brink
>Hello Daryl,
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <daryl_vdb at HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
>Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 9:50 PM
>Subject: Re: code pages I think
>
>
>
> > What if I made a windows euphoria editor using win32lib? Do you think it
> > would use the "terminal" font? NO! And even worse, I found a true type
>font
> > that has the same set of characters, and do you think that would work?
> > NO!!!! This has me stumped, as I used a font selection dialog box to
>select
> > the font, and it worked with every other font I tried. What is wrong
>with
> > the win32lib font routines? (this true type font is called "MS LindDraw"
>and
> > is included with microsoft office, but the characters don't join up
> > vertically like the "terminal" font and is generally not as good fof
>what
>I
> > wanted it for)
> >
> > This would be especially annoying if I distributed a program and people
> > complained that they can't use any font they want to. BTW, I am not
>making
> > an editor, I just used it as an example. I know I have brought this up
> > before, but I would like to see win32lib support *every* font, even if
>it
>is
> > old, ugly and rarely used.
>
>This is a limitation with the setFont() routine in win32lib. The current
>version assumes that only TrueType ANSI character fonts will be used. This
>has been enhanced in the next version by expanding the attributes
>parameter.
>
>Examples:
>
> setFont(id, "Marlett", 12,
> {
> Normal,
> 0,
> 0,
> 0,
> SYMBOL_CHARSET,
> 0,
<snip>
10. Re: code pages I think
----- Original Message -----
From: <daryl_vdb at HOTMAIL.COM>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Looking good. Now, when I use a font dialog, I'll also need to know if
it's
> SYMBOL_CHARSET or EOM_CHARSET etc. Oh well, thanks for improving it, and
now
> I know I can (hopefully) use every font on my computer.
Actually, I've enhanced the getFontDialog() as well so that it returns all
that stuff as well.
sequence fontdef
atom logicalfont
logicalfont = acquire_mem(0, SIZEOF_LOGFONT)
fontdef = getFontDialog({0,logicalfont})
setLogicalFont(id, logicalfont)
release_mem(logicalfont)
>Can't wait for the next version.
Yeah, me too! Currently there's a major stuff up in the tabcontrol, tabitem
and group controls. I'm busy tracking this down tonight. Everything else
seems to be running well enough.
------
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
"To finish a job quickly, go slower."
11. Re: code pages I think
Rolf,
Terminal, yes, and others too. But you have to know that. Something that
neither the general Windows Help nor Notepad's will mention. Try it: rebuild
your help indexes to max search capabilities and look for 'ASCII'. Nothing.
Nada.
Now, Notetab (and others), don't require you to know that. You don't change
font, you change code pages. Good editors will let you save and convert
between ASCII, ANSI, Unix, Mac, even EBCDIC and BCD. There's no Unix font,
no EBCDIC font, just different coding conventions. Code page should be -as
it is in Notetab- a document property, not a text property.
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: <rolf.schroeder at desy.de>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 2:43 AM
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> It's not true that Win32 Notepad isn't capable of ASCII 'extended'
> (=IBM437)! Open Notepad, select 'EDIT', 'Set Font', 'Terminal'. Now all
> your beloved ASCII extended will be shown.
> At least on my machine it's working like this.
> Have a nice day, Rolf
12. Re: code pages I think
Gerardo wrote:
> ...
> Now, Notetab (and others), don't require you to know that. You don't change
> font, you change code pages. Good editors will let you save and convert
> between ASCII, ANSI, Unix, Mac, even EBCDIC and BCD. There's no Unix font,
> no EBCDIC font, just different coding conventions. Code page should be -as
> it is in Notetab- a document property, not a text property.
>
Gerardo, my full agreement.
Have a nice day, Rolf
13. Re: code pages I think
14. Re: code pages I think
On 12 May 2001, at 14:36, Igor Kachan wrote:
<snip>
> To finish, I'll print "Good - bye EUForum!"
> (in Russian "Do svidaniya, EUForum!")
> on the Russian keyboard's register.
>
> What do you see on your machine?
>
> "Äî ñâèäàíèÿ, ÅÓÔîðóì!"
I see:
Ai naeaaiey AOOiooi!
with assorted superscripts above all the letters. What should i be seeing?
Kat
15. Re: code pages I think
16. Re: code pages I think
- Posted by kwibus at ZONNET.NL
May 15, 2001
17. Re: code pages I think
18. Re: code pages I think
19. Re: code pages I think
Gerardo wrote:
> Igor, and everybody:
>
> In case anyone's wondering, this codepage "nativeness" is just a setting
you
> can change anytime you want, even from msg to msg.
>
> In Outlook Express, you select Tools > Options > Send > International. I
> have three Cyrillics there: ISO (that is, 8859-5), Igor's KOI8-R, and
> Windows (meaning 1251). Also Ukrainian (KOI8-U), a couple of Greeks,
> Hebrews, Turkish, etc.
>
> With Netscape Messenger (mine is 4.74), yo don't go to Edit > Preferences
> (as might be 'natural'), but to View > Character Set. I have four
Cyrillics
> there: the three above, plus CP866, the old DOS code page.
>
> Both also give you the 'user-defined' option, which lets you write your
own
> secret code and scare the hell out of your friendly neighborhood Windows
> guru.
Hi Gerardo,
Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
Try please, this is the very interesting
Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
20. Re: code pages I think
21. Re: code pages I think
22. Re: code pages I think
On 17 May 2001, at 6:49, Travis Beaty wrote:
>
>
>
> ´ÞÑàÞ ãâàÞ, ¸ÓÞà!
>
> ²Þâ, ÜÞï ÜÐèØÝÐ ÓÞÒÞàØâÕ ßÞ-àãááÚØÙ ÞçÕÝì ßÛÞåÞ á "Cryllic Windows-1251"!
>
> ÇàÐÒØá ±ÐÕâØÙ
> ºÛÐÔ, ÂÕÚáÐá
Ok, i'm confused again.
> > Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> > simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> > or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
> >
> > Try please, this is the very interesting
> > Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
> >
> > Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
Is it not possible to use a common code page, like Romaji instead of Kanji?
Kat
23. Re: code pages I think
24. Re: code pages I think
Ok, i copy/paste this:
ÁËÀÃÎÄÀÐÍÎÑÒÜ
Do you see Cyrillic on your computer, Igor?
Kat
25. Re: code pages I think
26. Re: code pages I think
How is this relevant to EUPHORIA?!?!?!?!
Anyway, Kat's message came up garbage, whereas Igor's came up with the
Cyrillic characters!
Weird. Irrelevant. But weird.
27. Re: code pages I think
Hi CK,
Nothing Weird.
Kat's message was Windows-1251 in the place
with the Cyrillic characters (bytes 128-255)
but with the SOFT code page of her mailer.
My mailer is adjusted onto Windows-1251
charset, but with HARD code page.
When you get Kat's message, your mailer
is adjusted onto YOUR code page and
her message doesn't readjust your mailer
because of her SOFT.
But my the HARD readjust your mailer
onto Windows-1251 charset and you see
Cyrillic characters (new layout onto
your bytes 128-255).
See the propertys of these messages
with your mailer. And try to see
Kat's message with Windows-1251
charset.
This question is related to EUPHORIA
programming, I think, why not?
And if you understand the things
then Euphoria comes to you instead
of Weird
> How is this relevant to EUPHORIA?!?!?!?!
>
> Anyway, Kat's message came up garbage, whereas Igor's came up with the
> Cyrillic characters!
>
> Weird. Irrelevant. But weird.
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
28. Re: code pages I think
Stuart,
> It's relevant because these guys are Euphoria developers and they're
trying
> to bridge the communications gap that is forced upon different language
> groups....
But they all speak English, don't they?
> That's what a <delete> button's for.
> My opinion.
I say take it to private email. My delete finger is sore. :)
<\<
>
29. Re: code pages I think
On 17 May 2001, at 15:52, CK Lester wrote:
>
> Stuart,
>
> > It's relevant because these guys are Euphoria developers and they're
> trying
> > to bridge the communications gap that is forced upon different language
> > groups....
>
>
> But they all speak English, don't they?
I was drawn to Eu because it's like Basic and Lisp combined, but faster. It's
good for Ai, and the former USSR block did a lot of machine translation
research and Ai research that they have put online, while the usa has not. I'd
like to read it. Intertran, 100% usa built, translates "warp" , "warper" , and
"warpath" all as the same word in Spanish: "urdimbre". How stupid is that?!
I'd also like to feel better about an Ai being able to respond to a query in
any
language, and recognise the language the user is speaking, regardless of the
code pages i have on my puters. Igor went to the trouble of transcribing the
RDS pages to Russian, and i think it's been translated to other languages
too. Pardon our interest.
> > That's what a <delete> button's for.
> > My opinion.
>
> I say take it to private email. My delete finger is sore. :)
Then write a POP3 proxy in Eu to do the filtering. Please.
Kat
30. Re: code pages I think
Igor,
This message is coded West European (Windows)
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Hi Gerardo,
>
> Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
>
> Try please, this is the very interesting
> Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
>
> Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
31. Re: code pages I think
Igor,
This message is coded Cyrillic (Windows)
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Hi Gerardo,
>
> Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
>
> Try please, this is the very interesting
> Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
>
> Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
32. Re: code pages I think
Igor,
This message is coded Cyrillic (ISO)
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Hi Gerardo,
>
> Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
>
> Try please, this is the very interesting
> Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
>
> Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
33. Re: code pages I think
Igor,
This message is coded Cyrillic (Windows-1251), via Netscape.
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Hi Gerardo,
>
> Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
>
> Try please, this is the very interesting
> Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
>
> Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
34. Re: code pages I think
Igor,
This message is coded KOI8-R.
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Hi Gerardo,
>
> Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
>
> Try please, this is the very interesting
> Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
>
> Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
35. Re: code pages I think
Igor,
This message is coded CP866 (Netscape Messenger).
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Hi Gerardo,
>
> Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
>
> Try please, this is the very interesting
> Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
>
> Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
36. Re: code pages I think
Igor,
This message is coded Cyrillic (ISO-8859-5), via Netscape.
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Hi Gerardo,
>
> Do you can to send to me *your* own the *new*
> simplest message in Russian in CP866, or in KOI8-R or U,
> or in Windows-1251, or in 8859-5 ?
>
> Try please, this is the very interesting
> Kat's and Travis Beaty's and my question.
>
> Yes, Kat, yes, Travis ?
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
37. Re: code pages I think
38. Re: code pages I think
39. Re: code pages I think
Dear Eu users:
There are some interestig things
on this subject.
See messages below and my comments in [].
This text is prepared of the text
from the Property window of my mailer.
--##--From: CK --- his own old message
Subject: Blocking Error Msg with GetDrives
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
[CK's hard code page is "iso-8859-1", so CK
doesn't see correct Windows-1251 in Kat's
message with the soft code page, see below]
--24--From: Kat
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:54:48 -0500
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c)
[Kat copy/pastes Cyrillik, and her mailer
has no hard code page]
--25--From: Igor
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 23:08:39 +0400
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1251
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
40. Re: code pages I think
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C0E010.9C616120
charset="Windows-1252"
Igor,
Unfortunately, it seems there is something along the way that's =
interfering with the coding. Even if it's done with the best intentions, =
I find a little disquieting. Please see below.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Igor Kachan" <kinz at peterlink.ru>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> --35--From: Gerardo
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:25:21 -0300
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ****
> Igor,This message is coded CP866 (Netscape Messenger).
> Gerardo
> [charset=3Dus-ascii is not CP866, so, Gerardo
> force Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]
>=20
>=20
> --36--From: Gerardo
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:27:49 -0300
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dkoi8-r
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ****
> Igor,This message is coded Cyrillic (ISO-8859-5),
> via Netscape.
> Gerardo
> [charset=3Dkoi8-r is not ISO-8859-5, so, Gerardo
> forces Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]
>=20
>=20
> --39--From: Gerardo
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:28:35 -0300
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dkoi8-r
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ****
> Igor, This message is coded Cyrillic (Windows-1251),
> via Netscape.
> Gerardo
> [charset=3Dkoi8-r is not ISO-8859-5, so, Gerardo
> forces Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]
>=20
> As a result:
>=20
(...)
> 4. Gerardo forces his computer to send
> messages with the different Cyrillik
> hard charsets, but his Mozilla makes
> a rebellion on the Gerardo's ship
> sometimes.
> But this Mozilla may be just a regular
> guy and these disparities are the
> Topica's or my Russian Internet
> provider's fault. I don't know, sorry.
>=20
> Hey, Gerardo, check these mistaken=20
> messages from Topica on your computer
> please.
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
>=20
Yet I did send them all in various Cyrillic codings. And I got some of =
them back from the EuList in the same codings (the ones I sent via =
Outlook Express), or changed into us-ascii (via Netscape). Still, they =
all look like perfectly good Western, ISO-1, Latin-1, or whatever you =
prefer.
I guess there's a combination of factors at work here: mail daemons, =
mail clients, and who knows what else. Still, there's something we can =
do at little or no expense: play with fonts.
This message you're reading is formatted in OE5 as 'West European =
(Windows)'. And I'm introducing a slight change. All previous messages =
went out as unformatted (plain) text, and this one I'm sending as html, =
which lets me change fonts. I'm now writing Arial. Now, let's write =
'Euphoria':
.. using Asher (a Hebrew font): Euphoria
.. using Alexander (Greek): Euphoria
.. using Mikhael: Euphoria
... you get the idea.
OE5 will not let me use Arial Cyr, even when I change the code page to a =
Cyrillic one. Other apps will let me, but when I copy Arial Cyr text =
(viewed as Cyrillic), and paste it here, it shows the Latin accented =
uppercase vowels (as Kat saw), whatever OE codepage I set. Curiouser and =
curiouser.
In fact, OE5 offers me just a basic selection of my installed fonts. =
Various font utilities show a lot more (the standard Win98 fonts folder =
looks as poor as OE5), and SiSoft Sandra says I have tons of alternate =
versions, such as Arial Arabic (which appears nowhere else). Apparently =
Windows decides that, since I'm boooting ANSI 1252, I don't need =
everything. Typical.
However, this is not an intrinsic Windows fault, but just sloppy, =
careless user interfacing. Actually, the very standard Windows Font =
dialog box could include, along with the fontface combo, fontsize, and =
all the rest, an 'alphabet' listbox, where you could choose between =
Western, Arabic, Greek, Cyrillic, and any charset your installed fonts =
may offer. Arial itself has all of those, and everybody has Arial. But =
even MS Word doesn't include it. The only place I found it (and got it =
to work fine), was in my beloved NoteTab.
So, on to the Windows API. The Windows 3.1 API has the structures =
TEXTMETRIC, LOGFONT and NEWTEXTMETRIC, which include CharSet fields =
(strings * 1); also several defined constants.
Same with the Win32 API, with some changes, a lot of new constants, a =
new CHARSETINFO structure, and several structures which include =
LOGFONTs, like ICONMETRICS, CHOOSEFONT and MINIMIZEDMETRICS.
All of these can be easily invoked in your API calls: GetFontData, =
GetFontLanguageInfo, CreateFont, CreateFontIndirect, EnumFontFamiliesEx, =
GetTextCharset, GetTextCharsetInfo, TranslateCharsetInfo, =
ImmGetCompositionFont, ImmSetCompositionFont, ChooseFont, EnumFonts, and =
maybe others I missed or came up later.
Whew!
Hope it helps.
Gerardo
If anyone is interested and can't get them, I can send them both: two =
text files inside a 175 KB zipfile.
------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C0E010.9C616120
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Igor,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Unfortunately, it seems there is =
something along=20
the way that's interfering with the coding. Even if it's done with the =
best=20
intentions, I find a little disquieting. Please see below.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: "Igor Kachan" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:kinz at peterlink.ru"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>kinz at peterlink.ru</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: "EUforum" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:EUforum at topica.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>EUforum at topica.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 5:19 =
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Re: code pages I =
think</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> --35--From: Gerardo<BR>> Date: =
Fri, 18 May=20
2001 00:25:21 -0300<BR>> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; =
U)<BR>>=20
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf<BR>> Content-Type: text/plain;=20
charset=3Dus-ascii<BR>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>> =
****<BR>>=20
Igor,This message is coded CP866 (Netscape Messenger).<BR>> =
Gerardo<BR>>=20
[charset=3Dus-ascii is not CP866, so, Gerardo<BR>> force Mozilla, but =
Mozilla=20
sends different code page]<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> --36--From: =
Gerardo<BR>>=20
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:27:49 -0300<BR>> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 =
[en]=20
(Win98; U)<BR>> X-Accept-Language: en,pdf<BR>> Content-Type: =
text/plain;=20
charset=3Dkoi8-r<BR>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>> =
****<BR>>=20
Igor,This message is coded Cyrillic (ISO-8859-5),<BR>> via =
Netscape.<BR>>=20
Gerardo<BR>> [charset=3Dkoi8-r is not ISO-8859-5, so, Gerardo<BR>> =
forces=20
Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]<BR>> <BR>> =
<BR>>=20
--39--From: Gerardo<BR>> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:28:35 =
-0300<BR>>=20
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)<BR>> X-Accept-Language: =
en,pdf<BR>>=20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dkoi8-r<BR>> =
Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20
41. Re: code pages I think
Ok.....
If i understand right, Igor and Geraldo are saying this: If i recieve something
in a cyrilic font, Russian, Greek, Hebrew, or whatever,, as long as i know
that a byte of (for invented instance) 203 = a certain character in the sender's
language, then as long as i keep that byte associated with that knowledge,
even if i do not have that codepage, i can use that information to know what
that letter, and word, and paragraph, mean, despite what they display as. As
a second for instance, more real than the first, the Russian text i
copy/pasted to Igor came from IE5 where it looked cyrilic, and i pasted it to
Pegasus, which gives me apparently zero control of the font language
families, and in Pegasus it was that collection of lantinik vowels with
superscripts. Igor, i hope, read it as "thanks" in his native language's
codepage. Now, if i knew the capital 'A' with a certain superscript was the
same as the (for instance) 4th character of the Russian alphabet, then it
would be possible for me, or a program, to read the Russian that's displayed
with the wrong code,, because to the program, it's just a byte, an index into
the font table. The display is to present a standard visual interface to
humans,, and could just as likely be read properly with totally random chars,
as long as *i* knew how the characters represented the Russian characters.
The same byte, associated with another code page, would be interpreted as
some other character, but be displayed the same in the same wrong
codepage. Like how 39d = 27h = 47o = 100111b.
Is this correct?
Kat
42. Re: code pages I think
Hi Gerardo and dear Eu users,
Gerardo, to exclude Topica, please send your messages (see below)
to me directly in the same old modes, if you can do this.
Then. Euphoria is good (just one side) because Robert
represents any text just as a sequence of *integers*
with a value from 0 to 255.
So, inside Eu, there are *NO* any problems with any
languages, code pages, char sets, bytes and so on
CoOoOoL programmer's mumbo/jumbo.
Integers from 0 to 255. Period, as Rob writes.
Is it good? It is VERY GOOD!
Kat sees Cyrillik text. If she sees Cyrillik and can copy/paste
this Cyrillik into *mailer's editor window* -- be sure I'll see
pure Cyrillic, if her mailer doesn't *recode* bytes and send
message with the soft code page -- i.e. without any "code_page="
or "charset=" mailer's commands.
Kat sees superskripts after pasting the Cyrillic
into the *mailer's editor window* !!!!?!? 
--> )-:
OK!
Her editor just uses Western *font* to show, to visually
represent bytes, and from 128 to 255 too. But there are
*no any* recodings with the *pasted* bytes.
Turn on Cyrillik font and see Cyrillik if you want, and if
you have Cyrillik font.
Next. ASCII<->ANSI? DOS<->Windows<->Linux<->Mac<->ISO...?
Russian<->English<-.....->Mumbo Jumbo...?
Just a font and Eu's representation of the text, nothing more.
Any font 16x8(VGA) - 4K, to support 250 native languages - 1M
of a disk space, so, 1(one) flopopopopy (1.44M diskette).
And this is just the old, simple, kind, nice,..,
beautiful, but well forgotten DOS technology plus *free*
*newest* RDS's Eu-DOS32-Linux-v2.2 & Mr.Ryan's eu_engin.
If you want recoding, you can make recoding
*separately* under the hardest control.
For example, I must recode koi into dos,win, mac and
so on. If I have *koi text* and want to recode it into
*win text*, but recode it as *dos text* into *win text*,
I get mumbo/jumbo immediately.
Insteard of dangerous recodings, I'll just load *any*
unknown *plain* text into polyglot.ex and try to read
it with dos,win,lin,mac,iso,... cyr, jap, ger ... font.
(in the next versions 
.
Because any new recoding is just one step more
to the new tower of Babel, I think.
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
PS for Gerardo.
> --35--From: Gerardo
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:25:21 -0300
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ****
> Igor,This message is coded CP866 (Netscape Messenger).
> Gerardo
> [charset=us-ascii is not CP866, so, Gerardo
> force Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]
>
>
> --36--From: Gerardo
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:27:49 -0300
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ****
> Igor,This message is coded Cyrillic (ISO-8859-5),
> via Netscape.
> Gerardo
> [charset=koi8-r is not ISO-8859-5, so, Gerardo
> forces Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]
> --39--From: Gerardo
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:28:35 -0300
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U)
> X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ****
> Igor, This message is coded Cyrillic (Windows-1251),
> via Netscape.
> Gerardo
> [charset=koi8-r is not ISO-8859-5, so, Gerardo
> forces Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]
above my misprint
[charset=koi8-r is not Windows-1251, so, Gerardo
forces Mozilla, but Mozilla sends different code page]
-----
43. Re: code pages I think
Hi JOHN,
> I never saw any cyrilic characters on anybody's emails,
> just odd groups of letters with accents. Does this mean that my
> clients will be unable to use my program if they don't have the
> correct? settings? That their text files filtered through my program
> will turn into mush? Thats awful.
See below, this is the property of your original
message:
Subject: code pages I think
--
To: EUforum
--
--01--From: John
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:18:42 +0100
Encoding: 24 TEXT
--
See Encoding: 24 TEXT -- this is a hard code page of your mailer.
On our subject/thread, there are no other messages
with such a code page.
Try to paste this unreadable text from the mailer's window
into Notepad, save file as .txt and see this *File.txt* with
Netscape on Windows-1251 char set (Kat's message),
or ISO-8859-5 (Travis's message).
This is the common trick to read mumbo/jumbo.
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
44. Re: code pages I think
Hello Kat,
> Ok.....
>
> If i understand right, Igor and Geraldo are saying this:
> If i recieve something in a cyrilic font, Russian, Greek,
> Hebrew, or whatever,, as long as i know
> that a byte of (for invented instance) 203 = a certain
> character in the sender's language, then as long as i keep
> that byte associated with that knowledge,
> even if i do not have that codepage, i can use that information
> to know what that letter, and word, and paragraph, mean,
> despite what they display as.
Yes, Kat!
> As a second for instance, more real than the first,
> the Russian text i copy/pasted to Igor came from IE5 where
> it looked cyrilic, and i pasted it to Pegasus,
> which gives me apparently zero control of the font
> language families, and in Pegasus it was that collection
> of lantinik vowels with superscripts. Igor, i hope,
> read it as "thanks" in his native language's codepage.
Yes, Kat, but in Russian that is GREATTHANKS
> Now, if i knew the capital 'A' with a certain superscript
> was the same as the (for instance) 4th character of the
> Russian alphabet, then it would be possible for me,
> or a program, to read the Russian that's displayed
> with the wrong code,, because to the program, it's just a byte,
> an index into the font table.
Yes, Kat!
And SO ON !
Full steam ahead ! (by Mark Brown)
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
45. Re: code pages I think
John,
----- Original Message -----
From: "John McAdam" <johnmcadam at clix.pt>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: RE: code pages I think
> Hi guys an' gals,
> I had no idea when I posted my original problem what I
> was getting us into!
Not to worry. I think you did us a great service. Too many things remain
hidden to the common user, and to the programmer too, unless fortuitous
circumstance brings them to her/his attention. This
codepage-font-mail-browser-text mishmash is one of them. A prime source of
untraceable error. I have yet to find a working environment that will tell
you that there's a difference between your settings and what you're trying
to do. Anyone fancy writing a dll on this?
Gerardo
46. Re: code pages I think
Kat,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kat" <gertie at PELL.NET>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Ok.....
>
> If i understand right, Igor and Geraldo are saying this: If i recieve
something
> in a cyrilic font, Russian, Greek, Hebrew, or whatever,, as long as i know
> that a byte of (for invented instance) 203 = a certain character in the
sender's
> language, then as long as i keep that byte associated with that knowledge,
> even if i do not have that codepage, i can use that information to know
what
> that letter, and word, and paragraph, mean, despite what they display as.
As
> a second for instance, more real than the first, the Russian text i
> copy/pasted to Igor came from IE5 where it looked cyrilic, and i pasted it
to
> Pegasus, which gives me apparently zero control of the font language
> families, and in Pegasus it was that collection of lantinik vowels with
> superscripts. Igor, i hope, read it as "thanks" in his native language's
> codepage. Now, if i knew the capital 'A' with a certain superscript was
the
> same as the (for instance) 4th character of the Russian alphabet, then it
> would be possible for me, or a program, to read the Russian that's
displayed
> with the wrong code,, because to the program, it's just a byte, an index
into
> the font table. The display is to present a standard visual interface to
> humans,, and could just as likely be read properly with totally random
chars,
> as long as *i* knew how the characters represented the Russian characters.
> The same byte, associated with another code page, would be interpreted as
> some other character, but be displayed the same in the same wrong
> codepage. Like how 39d = 27h = 47o = 100111b.
>
> Is this correct?
>
> Kat
As Igor already said, you're absolutely in the right. The catchword is
translation, just as you translate between your ascii and ansi settings, say
CP850 vs. CP1252. This is what prompted the development of Unicode, only
Unicode, like Ada, wound up being a solution more complex than the problem.
Sad.
Let me add a personal thought, relevant to programming for others (and not
just for our own enjoyment and illustration). I believe that a program
should either be so simple and straightforward that nothing could possibly
affect it, or should give the user the opportunity to fiddle with every
setting until it looks and works right. Anything in between will work until
it doesn't, period.
Remember Kant's moral imperative (say what? shut up and go get your
encyclopedia): do everything as if it could become a general rule. That is,
every program should behave as if lives depended on it. Think of medical
apps, of air control software, whatever example chills your bones best. I'm
working for the local stock exchange, where a real mistake might mean
millions of dollars, and there's no such thing as 'oops, sorry.'
Hard work, ain't it?
Gerardo
47. Re: code pages I think
On 19 May 2001, at 15:47, Gerardo wrote:
>
> John,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John McAdam" <johnmcadam at clix.pt>
> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 1:05 AM
> Subject: RE: code pages I think
>
>
> > Hi guys an' gals,
> > I had no idea when I posted my original problem what I
> > was getting us into!
>
> Not to worry. I think you did us a great service. Too many things remain
> hidden to the common user, and to the programmer too, unless fortuitous
> circumstance brings them to her/his attention. This
> codepage-font-mail-browser-text mishmash is one of them. A prime source of
> untraceable error. I have yet to find a working environment that will tell
> you that there's a difference between your settings and what you're trying
> to do. Anyone fancy writing a dll on this?
No, not me! I am not looking forwards to associating all the bytes in a string
recognition program to all the code pages either. I am even afaid someone will
find a
way to do this:
byte_sequence1 = these words in slovenian
byte_sequence1 = these words in turkish
byte_sequence1 = some Perl command
thereby making the program not know what was really meant,, or even what
language
it was written in!
Kat,
perplexed,
and maybe one of the following:
ÑÌÓÙÅÍÍÛÉ; ÏÎÑÒÀÂËÅÍÍÛÉ Â ÒÓÏÈÊ; ÑÏÓÒÀÍÍÛÉ; ÑÁÈÂ×ÈÂÛÉ;
ÁÅÑÏÎÐßÄÎ×ÍÛÉ
but i am not sure yet
48. Re: code pages I think
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com
May 20, 2001
Gerado:
I totally agree. But I know a lot of programmers/analysts who do not behave
this way, and then havoc crops up.
I am now retired, but a year ago I was working as an analyst/programmer for
the Argentine Tax Office (DGI), and always put most care in my programs, so
I rarely had any problem. An error not only would mean a loss, but also many
troubles for the taxpayer and other co-workers.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerardo" <gebrandariz at YAHOO.COM>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: code pages I think
>
>
> Kat,
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kat" <gertie at PELL.NET>
> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:16 AM
> Subject: Re: code pages I think
>
>
> > Ok.....
> >
> > If i understand right, Igor and Geraldo are saying this: If i recieve
> something
> > in a cyrilic font, Russian, Greek, Hebrew, or whatever,, as long as i
know
> > that a byte of (for invented instance) 203 = a certain character in the
> sender's
> > language, then as long as i keep that byte associated with that
knowledge,
> > even if i do not have that codepage, i can use that information to know
> what
> > that letter, and word, and paragraph, mean, despite what they display
as.
> As
> > a second for instance, more real than the first, the Russian text i
> > copy/pasted to Igor came from IE5 where it looked cyrilic, and i pasted
it
> to
> > Pegasus, which gives me apparently zero control of the font language
> > families, and in Pegasus it was that collection of lantinik vowels with
> > superscripts. Igor, i hope, read it as "thanks" in his native language's
> > codepage. Now, if i knew the capital 'A' with a certain superscript was
> the
> > same as the (for instance) 4th character of the Russian alphabet, then
it
> > would be possible for me, or a program, to read the Russian that's
> displayed
> > with the wrong code,, because to the program, it's just a byte, an index
> into
> > the font table. The display is to present a standard visual interface to
> > humans,, and could just as likely be read properly with totally random
> chars,
> > as long as *i* knew how the characters represented the Russian
characters.
> > The same byte, associated with another code page, would be interpreted
as
> > some other character, but be displayed the same in the same wrong
> > codepage. Like how 39d = 27h = 47o = 100111b.
> >
> > Is this correct?
> >
> > Kat
>
> As Igor already said, you're absolutely in the right. The catchword is
> translation, just as you translate between your ascii and ansi settings,
say
> CP850 vs. CP1252. This is what prompted the development of Unicode, only
> Unicode, like Ada, wound up being a solution more complex than the
problem.
> Sad.
>
> Let me add a personal thought, relevant to programming for others (and not
> just for our own enjoyment and illustration). I believe that a program
> should either be so simple and straightforward that nothing could possibly
> affect it, or should give the user the opportunity to fiddle with every
> setting until it looks and works right. Anything in between will work
until
> it doesn't, period.
>
> Remember Kant's moral imperative (say what? shut up and go get your
> encyclopedia): do everything as if it could become a general rule. That
is,
> every program should behave as if lives depended on it. Think of medical
> apps, of air control software, whatever example chills your bones best.
I'm
> working for the local stock exchange, where a real mistake might mean
> millions of dollars, and there's no such thing as 'oops, sorry.'
>
> Hard work, ain't it?
>
> Gerardo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
49. Re: code pages I think
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com
May 20, 2001
50. Re: code pages I think
51. Re: code pages I think
As John W. Campbell (the Analog editor, do you know about him?) used to
repeat: you can't do just one thing. Everything has consequences. Mistakes
and omissions may be understandable, even forgivable, but the harm's done,
the cat's out of the bag, and the baby went with the bath water.
I wish parents and teachers and the media all over the world made it their
business to hammer into people's minds that doing things right is not only
nicer on your conscience and less harmful to others, but actually cheaper
and faster. A well-designed program usually works faster and better than an
inspired scrabble on your keyboard. Not that you'll always reach perfection,
but at least it should be your goal, your measure of things.
Gerardo
----- Original Message -----
From: <rforno at tutopia.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: code pages I think
> Gerado:
> I totally agree. But I know a lot of programmers/analysts who do not
behave
> this way, and then havoc crops up.
> I am now retired, but a year ago I was working as an analyst/programmer
for
> the Argentine Tax Office (DGI), and always put most care in my programs,
so
> I rarely had any problem. An error not only would mean a loss, but also
many
> troubles for the taxpayer and other co-workers.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerardo" <gebrandariz at YAHOO.COM>
> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 3:59 PM
> Subject: Re: code pages I think
>
>
> >
> >
> > Kat,
> >
> > Let me add a personal thought, relevant to programming for others (and
not
> > just for our own enjoyment and illustration). I believe that a program
> > should either be so simple and straightforward that nothing could
possibly
> > affect it, or should give the user the opportunity to fiddle with every
> > setting until it looks and works right. Anything in between will work
> until
> > it doesn't, period.
> >
> > Remember Kant's moral imperative (say what? shut up and go get your
> > encyclopedia): do everything as if it could become a general rule. That
> is,
> > every program should behave as if lives depended on it. Think of medical
> > apps, of air control software, whatever example chills your bones best.
> I'm
> > working for the local stock exchange, where a real mistake might mean
> > millions of dollars, and there's no such thing as 'oops, sorry.'
> >
> > Hard work, ain't it?
> >
> > Gerardo
