1. The A.I. Project II
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Hi all,
If anyone is interested in contributing to "The Euphoria A.I.
Project" please e-mail this mailing list between now and
November 15,11 p.m. ET. There will probably be many
different approaches to what kind of A.I to create and how
to go about doing it, so we should take a democratic
approach to it at the onset and all throughout the process.
If you have an idea or if you just want to contribute please
write an e-mail here between now and then. I will collect all
of the postings,itemize them,summarize them,and repost
them on Saturday,November 16 at 5 p.m so that we can
vote on which idea we will be implemented.
Note:you do not have to have an original idea as to what
kind of A.I. creature to create in order to vote, just post that
you would like to vote and I'll include your name on my
Saturday posting.Everyone will be able to see the votes
(because it will be voted on via the list) therefore we can
assure it will be clean.
Also note that we will only be voting on what type of A.I.
creature to create at first and nothing else,but dont let
that stop you from writing about how the idea should be
implemented, as that may influence a decision to vote on
what type.
For example,if for instance you think that we should create
a worm for an a.i. subject,briefly state why you think a worm
would be better,and how we should go about implementing it.The =
implementation itself wont be voted on at first,just the
subject,but the extra information will help toward making an
informed decision.
Also note, even if your not the best programmer on the list
don't be afraid to contribute because there are many things
involved in a project like this.There is a certain amount of
research to be done,as well as artwork.I would imagine there would also =
be a large amount of "residual programming" to be done, procedures that =
need to be
created outside the main life cycle loops of the subject.
Also the program needs to be tested,so called beta testing.
And anybody with declared involvement will have a vote.So
really anyone can contribute and will be encouraged to contribute.
After November 15,anyone can contribute,but unless we
hear from you on or before then, you won't have a chance
to present the original premise or vote on the original
premise.
I'll post this e-mail once every other day untill November 15
to make sure everyone's aware of the project.And I will
make sure that ALL of the ideas get posted to vote on.
Best Regards,
Jason Dube
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C285B0.B7D7B2A0
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If anyone is interested in contributing =
to "The=20
Euphoria A.I.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Project" please e-mail this mailing =
list between=20
now and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>November 15,11 p.m. ET. There will =
probably be=20
many</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>different approaches to what kind of =
A.I to create=20
and how</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to go about doing it, so we should take =
a=20
democratic</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>approach to it at the onset and all =
throughout the=20
process.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> If you have an idea or if you =
just want to=20
contribute please</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>write an e-mail here between now and =
then. I will=20
collect all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of the postings,itemize them,summarize =
them,and=20
repost</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>them on Saturday,November 16 at 5 p.m =
so that we=20
can</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>vote on which idea we will be=20
implemented.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Note:you do not have to have an =
original=20
idea as to what</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kind of A.I. creature to create in =
order to vote,=20
just post that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you would like to vote and I'll include =
your name=20
on my</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Saturday posting.Everyone will be able =
to see the=20
votes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(because it will be voted on via the =
list)=20
therefore we can</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>assure it will be clean.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Also note that we will only be =
voting on=20
what type of A.I.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>creature to create at first and nothing =
else,but=20
dont let</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>that stop you from writing about how =
the idea=20
should be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>implemented, as that may influence a =
decision to=20
vote on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>what type.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> For example,if for instance you =
think that=20
we should create</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a worm for an a.i. subject,briefly =
state why you=20
think a worm</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>would be better,and how we should go =
about=20
implementing it.The implementation itself wont be voted on at first,just =
the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>subject,but the extra information will =
help toward=20
making an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>informed decision.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Also note, even if your not the =
best=20
programmer on the list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>don't be afraid to contribute because =
there are=20
many things</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>involved in a project like this.There =
is a certain=20
amount of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>research to be done,as well as =
artwork.I would=20
imagine there would also be a large amount of "residual programming" to =
be done,=20
procedures that need to be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>created outside the main life cycle =
loops of the=20
subject.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Also the program needs to be =
tested,so called=20
beta testing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And anybody with declared involvement =
will have a=20
vote.So</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>really anyone can contribute and will =
be encouraged=20
to contribute.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> After November 15,anyone can =
contribute,but=20
unless we</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hear from you on or before then, you =
won't have a=20
chance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to present the original premise or vote =
on the=20
original</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>premise.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I'll post this e-mail once every =
other day=20
untill November 15</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to make sure everyone's aware of =
the=20
project.And I will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>make sure that ALL of the ideas get =
posted to vote=20
on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
=20
Best Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
Jason Dube</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C285B0.B7D7B2A0--
2. Re: The A.I. Project II
The primary consideration is "initial wiring," or, as I've been saying,
"instinct."
Start with worm instinct, get a full-potential worm.
Start with monkey instinct, get a full-potential monkey.
Start with human instinct, get a full-potential human.
I say "full-potential" because with no enemies and in a limited-stimuli
environment, virtual AI entities should develop extremely fast. Or maybe
not.
So, we gotta figure out what's instinctual for a worm... well, for any
entity, there's survival (sustaining one's own life force or existence),
then there are mechanisms to help with that.
I also believe that there's no such thing as a "full-potential human." Given
our incredible brains, humans have unlimited potential. That's just my
opinion. You might agree. ;)
3. Re: The A.I. Project II
C.K.:
I would definately agree with you about our human possibilities.
I also agree with your instinct theory,we all have a survival instinct,
and I believe its the first step in programming a.i. In addition, some of
the lower species don't have much more than a survival instinct.
As far as finding out what is instinctual for a worm,first of all
that would entail finding out what kind of worm we are talking about,
and then doing research on that particular kind.I remember reading
about the earthworm and being quite amazed,they are really just moving
digestion systems.Basically,when they are working underground they
are eating their way around.As an earthworm moves,he eats and when
the food passes through its body, the refuse is used for fertilizer,
plant food.In a worms mind,if he cant eat it,he'll have to move around
it!But whatever subject we pick,we would want to know more about that
subject before we started the project,obviously.And thats not to say
we couldn't just invent a type of worm that has instincts that we
provide.After all, we will become,in effect,its creator!
>From: "C. K. Lester" <cklester at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
>To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
>Subject: Re: The A.I. Project II
>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:38:47 -0600
>
>
>The primary consideration is "initial wiring," or, as I've been saying,
>"instinct."
>
>Start with worm instinct, get a full-potential worm.
>Start with monkey instinct, get a full-potential monkey.
>Start with human instinct, get a full-potential human.
>
>I say "full-potential" because with no enemies and in a limited-stimuli
>environment, virtual AI entities should develop extremely fast. Or maybe
>not.
>
>So, we gotta figure out what's instinctual for a worm... well, for any
>entity, there's survival (sustaining one's own life force or existence),
>then there are mechanisms to help with that.
>
>I also believe that there's no such thing as a "full-potential human."
>Given
>our incredible brains, humans have unlimited potential. That's just my
>opinion. You might agree. ;)
>
>
>
4. Re: The A.I. Project II
On 6 Nov 2002, at 15:38, C. K. Lester wrote:
>
> The primary consideration is "initial wiring," or, as I've been saying,
> "instinct."
>
> Start with worm instinct, get a full-potential worm.
> Start with monkey instinct, get a full-potential monkey.
> Start with human instinct, get a full-potential human.
I haveto draw the line there. Some of us are "full potential humans", and are
discarded. Yet humans want to build electronic clones of humans, to do
what we could be doing, but aren't allowed to do.
Kat
5. Re: The A.I. Project II
- Posted by tone.skoda at gmx.net
Nov 06, 2002
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Question shouldn't be what type of AI creature but in what type of =
enviroment it will be. I would like to hear some ideas for good AI =
enviroment. Input (sensory information) to AI creature should be simple, =
also output (AI creature's actions, movement). Other creatures around it =
and world can be complex, better if different levels of complexity =
exists of both. It's good if its easily visible when AI creature starts =
behaving intelligent.
Also there has to be possibilty to see different levels of intelligence =
of AI creature in this enviroment, that enviroment allows it.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: dubetyrant at hotmail.com=20
To: EUforum=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:22 PM
Subject: The A.I. Project II
Hi all,
If anyone is interested in contributing to "The Euphoria A.I.
Project" please e-mail this mailing list between now and
November 15,11 p.m. ET. There will probably be many
different approaches to what kind of A.I to create and how
to go about doing it, so we should take a democratic
approach to it at the onset and all throughout the process.
If you have an idea or if you just want to contribute please
write an e-mail here between now and then. I will collect all
of the postings,itemize them,summarize them,and repost
them on Saturday,November 16 at 5 p.m so that we can
vote on which idea we will be implemented.
Note:you do not have to have an original idea as to what
kind of A.I. creature to create in order to vote, just post that
you would like to vote and I'll include your name on my
Saturday posting.Everyone will be able to see the votes
(because it will be voted on via the list) therefore we can
assure it will be clean.
Also note that we will only be voting on what type of A.I.
creature to create at first and nothing else,but dont let
that stop you from writing about how the idea should be
implemented, as that may influence a decision to vote on
what type.
For example,if for instance you think that we should create
a worm for an a.i. subject,briefly state why you think a worm
would be better,and how we should go about implementing it.The =
implementation itself wont be voted on at first,just the
subject,but the extra information will help toward making an
informed decision.
Also note, even if your not the best programmer on the list
don't be afraid to contribute because there are many things
involved in a project like this.There is a certain amount of
research to be done,as well as artwork.I would imagine there would =
also be a large amount of "residual programming" to be done, procedures =
that need to be
created outside the main life cycle loops of the subject.
Also the program needs to be tested,so called beta testing.
And anybody with declared involvement will have a vote.So
really anyone can contribute and will be encouraged to contribute.
After November 15,anyone can contribute,but unless we
hear from you on or before then, you won't have a chance
to present the original premise or vote on the original
premise.
I'll post this e-mail once every other day untill November 15
to make sure everyone's aware of the project.And I will
make sure that ALL of the ideas get posted to vote on.
Best Regards,
Jason Dube
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C28604.A7DF36D0
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Question shouldn't be what type of AI =
creature but=20
in what type of enviroment it will be. I would like to hear some ideas =
for good=20
AI enviroment. Input (sensory information) to AI creature should be =
simple, also=20
output (AI creature's actions, movement). Other creatures around it =
and=20
world can be complex, better if different levels of complexity=20
exists of both. It's good if its easily visible when AI creature =
starts=20
behaving intelligent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Also there has to be possibilty to see =
different=20
levels of intelligence of AI creature in this enviroment, that =
enviroment allows=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddubetyrant at hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:dubetyrant at hotmail.com">dubetyrant at hotmail.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DEUforum at topica.com=20
href=3D"mailto:EUforum at topica.com">EUforum</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 06, =
2002 10:22=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> The A.I. Project =
II</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><PRE>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Euphoria =
Mailing List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
</PRE>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If anyone is interested in =
contributing to "The=20
Euphoria A.I.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Project" please e-mail this mailing =
list between=20
now and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>November 15,11 p.m. ET. There will =
probably be=20
many</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>different approaches to what kind of =
A.I to=20
create and how</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to go about doing it, so we should =
take a=20
democratic</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>approach to it at the onset and all =
throughout=20
the process.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> If you have an idea or if you =
just want to=20
contribute please</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>write an e-mail here between now and =
then. I will=20
collect all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of the postings,itemize =
them,summarize them,and=20
repost</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>them on Saturday,November 16 at 5 p.m =
so that we=20
can</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>vote on which idea we will be=20
implemented.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Note:you do not have to have =
an original=20
idea as to what</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kind of A.I. creature to create in =
order to vote,=20
just post that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you would like to vote and I'll =
include your name=20
on my</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Saturday posting.Everyone will be =
able to see the=20
votes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(because it will be voted on via the =
list)=20
therefore we can</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>assure it will be clean.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Also note that we will only be =
voting on=20
what type of A.I.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>creature to create at first and =
nothing else,but=20
dont let</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>that stop you from writing about how =
the idea=20
should be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>implemented, as that may influence a =
decision to=20
vote on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>what type.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> For example,if for instance =
you think that=20
we should create</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a worm for an a.i. subject,briefly =
state why you=20
think a worm</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>would be better,and how we should go =
about=20
implementing it.The implementation itself wont be voted on at =
first,just=20
the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>subject,but the extra information =
will help=20
toward making an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>informed decision.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Also note, even if your not =
the best=20
programmer on the list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>don't be afraid to contribute because =
there are=20
many things</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>involved in a project like this.There =
is a=20
certain amount of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>research to be done,as well as =
artwork.I would=20
imagine there would also be a large amount of "residual programming" =
to be=20
done, procedures that need to be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>created outside the main life cycle =
loops of the=20
subject.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Also the program needs to be =
tested,so=20
called beta testing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And anybody with declared involvement =
will have a=20
vote.So</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>really anyone can contribute and will =
be=20
encouraged to contribute.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> After November 15,anyone can=20
contribute,but unless we</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hear from you on or before then, you =
won't have a=20
chance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to present the original premise or =
vote on the=20
original</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>premise.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I'll post this e-mail once =
every other day=20
untill November 15</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to make sure everyone's aware of =
the=20
project.And I will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>make sure that ALL of the ideas get =
posted to=20
vote on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
=20
Best Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
=
size=3D2> &nbs=
p;  =
; =
&=
nbsp; =20
Jason Dube</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
=
<DIV> </DIV><PRE>=3D=3D^=3D=3D^=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C28604.A7DF36D0--
6. Re: The A.I. Project II
HiYa,
I dont believe it really matters WHAT the subject is in comparison to
things like its environment,visibility, and stimuli.I will expand the vote
to include all ideas that come across this board between now and then,that
way we can vote on all of it in one fell swoop.
The purpose of the vote is to establish a rough outline of what we
will accomplish through this collaboration.It is possible that all
of the threads we receive between now and then will just complement
one another.However there will probably be conflicts and the most direct
way to solve the conflicts is to determine what the community,as a
whole,deems best.
Nothing will be written in stone,but we should make sure that if
there are changes,then its because the whole team made the decision
for those changes.
When we have decided which avenue to take, I believe we should then
take the whole and divide it into smaller parts, each of these parts
to be worked on by different individuals,maybe we'll have to take
these smaller parts and divide them down even further.
I plan to take a homemade object oriented approach to the programming
tasks in order to bring it together into a whole, I might need help
with that at first. Then I want to create actual schematics to
distribute to those working on it, you know, or some other orderly
method.I'd like to document every step,test and retest every step.
Build an excellent series of libraries which are reliable and can be
used by future Euphoria users.
When you talk about visibility,in my mind your talking about graphics,
Im sure we can come up with some 2d stuff that looks great.Alot of
times I feel like a mental midget among giants on this forum.Theres alot
of real smart people here, and I really think its possible to do
something like this.You never know, maybe we'll stumble upon something
really new...its happened before.
Have a good night,
JDUBE
>From: tone.skoda at gmx.net
>Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
>To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
>Subject: Re: The A.I. Project II
>Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 02:23:27 +0100
>
>
>Question shouldn't be what type of AI creature but in what type of
>enviroment it will be. I would like to hear some ideas for good AI
>enviroment. Input (sensory information) to AI creature should be simple,
>also output (AI creature's actions, movement). Other creatures around it
>and world can be complex, better if different levels of complexity exists
>of both. It's good if its easily visible when AI creature starts behaving
>intelligent.
>Also there has to be possibilty to see different levels of intelligence of
>AI creature in this enviroment, that enviroment allows it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dubetyrant at hotmail.com
> To: EUforum
> Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:22 PM
> Subject: The A.I. Project II
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> If anyone is interested in contributing to "The Euphoria A.I.
> Project" please e-mail this mailing list between now and
> November 15,11 p.m. ET. There will probably be many
> different approaches to what kind of A.I to create and how
> to go about doing it, so we should take a democratic
> approach to it at the onset and all throughout the process.
> If you have an idea or if you just want to contribute please
> write an e-mail here between now and then. I will collect all
> of the postings,itemize them,summarize them,and repost
> them on Saturday,November 16 at 5 p.m so that we can
> vote on which idea we will be implemented.
> Note:you do not have to have an original idea as to what
> kind of A.I. creature to create in order to vote, just post that
> you would like to vote and I'll include your name on my
> Saturday posting.Everyone will be able to see the votes
> (because it will be voted on via the list) therefore we can
> assure it will be clean.
> Also note that we will only be voting on what type of A.I.
> creature to create at first and nothing else,but dont let
> that stop you from writing about how the idea should be
> implemented, as that may influence a decision to vote on
> what type.
> For example,if for instance you think that we should create
> a worm for an a.i. subject,briefly state why you think a worm
> would be better,and how we should go about implementing it.The
>implementation itself wont be voted on at first,just the
> subject,but the extra information will help toward making an
> informed decision.
> Also note, even if your not the best programmer on the list
> don't be afraid to contribute because there are many things
> involved in a project like this.There is a certain amount of
> research to be done,as well as artwork.I would imagine there would also
>be a large amount of "residual programming" to be done, procedures that
>need to be
> created outside the main life cycle loops of the subject.
> Also the program needs to be tested,so called beta testing.
> And anybody with declared involvement will have a vote.So
> really anyone can contribute and will be encouraged to contribute.
> After November 15,anyone can contribute,but unless we
> hear from you on or before then, you won't have a chance
> to present the original premise or vote on the original
> premise.
> I'll post this e-mail once every other day untill November 15
> to make sure everyone's aware of the project.And I will
> make sure that ALL of the ideas get posted to vote on.
> Best Regards,
> Jason Dube
>
>==^^===============================================================
>This email was sent to: dubetyrant at hotmail.com
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
7. Re: The A.I. Project II
On 0, Kat <kat at kogeijin.com> wrote:
>
> On 6 Nov 2002, at 21:00, C. K. Lester wrote:
>
> >
> > > > Start with worm instinct, get a full-potential worm.
> > > > Start with monkey instinct, get a full-potential monkey.
> > > > Start with human instinct, get a full-potential human.
> > >
> > > I haveto draw the line there. Some of us are "full potential
> > > humans", and are discarded.
> >
> > Kat, are you saying you've reached your full potential?! I find that hard to
> > believe. As long as you have a brain and it can learn, you've not reached
> > your
> > full potential, right?
>
> Wrong. I can feel my abilities slipping, and it's a proven fact that living in
> total
> isolation from society will cause what i feel: slower wit, less memory, and
> apathy about everything. I go 3 weeks routinely without laying eyes on
> another human, much less speaking to a human in real life, unless i goto a
> store to buy something. So yes, i feel like i am past my peak, even tho it
> was a much lower peak than i should have been reaching. Creating a
> sentient Ai tells me the machine is valued over me.
>
> I just got a price for *me* to get dsl. It will be installed 60 miles from me,
>
> cost $80/month (plus installation), in a section south of Birmingham noted for
>
> high crime and drug abuse rates. There will be no security for the
> installation,
> and it's a 2hour commute to drive there. Either that, or i learn Perl to get
> the
> nix shell in Netherlands operational.
>
> Kat
>
Then don't be so isolated. Go out and venture into society if you feel
like it.
If you want a text-based substitute, try a MOO (like lambda.moo.mud.org
8888)
or Instant Messenging. (Personally, I like Virtual Societies better than
the real versions - but thats just me ;)
As for broadband internet, you look into cable, T1, or satilite DSL?
Or, at the very minimum, are you using an IDSN connection?
jbrown
Linux User:190064
Linux Machine:84163
--
8. Re: The A.I. Project II
Its in the archives.
Nnet.e (and I think another .. the name escapes me).
I'd use genetic algortithms over simulated nerual nets to enhance the
AI's learning ability, but thats just me.
jbrown
On 0, mistertrik at hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Perhaps I should clarify...
>
> I'd like to see a EUPHORIA neural net library.
> =====================================================
> .______<-------------------\__
> / _____<--------------------__|===
> ||_ <-------------------/
> \__| Mr Trick
>
>
> >From: dm31 at uow.edu.au
> >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
> >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
> >Subject: RE: The A.I. Project II
> >Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 14:49:45 +1100
> >
> >
> >|I'd like to see some information, tutorials, or libraries that can
> >use
> >|simple neural nets. That's the sort of thing I want to get involved
> >in, but
> >|I don't know much about them, or how they are implemented.
> >
> >Open google and run a search for neural net. There a some very good
> >gui neural net programs out there that let you build a net visually
> >and teach it 'visually' etc. Ther even come with some sample nets
> >premade. One I downloaded even a ocr net made that worked pretty well.
> >
> >I can't remember there names thou. If you can't find any good ones,
> >tell me, and I'll go look for you.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Dan
> >
> >==^^===============================================================
> >This email was sent to: mistertrik at hotmail.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
Linux User:190064
Linux Machine:84163
--
9. Re: The A.I. Project II
On 0, Kat <kat at kogeijin.com> wrote:
> On 6 Nov 2002, at 15:38, C. K. Lester wrote:
>
> >
> > The primary consideration is "initial wiring," or, as I've been saying,
> > "instinct."
> >
> > Start with worm instinct, get a full-potential worm.
> > Start with monkey instinct, get a full-potential monkey.
> > Start with human instinct, get a full-potential human.
>
> I haveto draw the line there. Some of us are "full potential humans", and are
> discarded. Yet humans want to build electronic clones of humans, to do
> what we could be doing, but aren't allowed to do.
>
> Kat
>
First off, how are you being discarded?
Second point, the electronic clones wouldn't be exact duplicates of
humans,
but would rather do all the boring tasks that most humans dont want to
do,
with a precision not available to most human brains.
Thirdly, there is a price factor. Humans are labor and have to be paid
continously,
while the AIs are slaves and are a one time cost.
jbrown
--
are
10. Re: The A.I. Project II
On 0, "C. K. Lester" <cklester at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > When you talk about visibility,in my mind your talking about graphics,
> > Im sure we can come up with some 2d stuff that looks great.
>
> When I talk about the AI entity's "visual" and "aural" abilities, I'm
> talking hardware components. You would have to answer, "How does this
> virtual creature 'see?'" "How will this virtual creature 'hear'?" Obviously,
> you'll have to have graphic and sound processing code (code to analyze a
> "picture" and be able to make distinctions in what it finds; code to take
> noise and find relevance somewhere), which already takes this project beyond
> a short-term exercise in fun. :)
>
Or the AI could live in a world of text, and just analyze that via its
"eyes"
and "ears". Of course, this is usually the domain of chatterbots.
jbrown
--
11. Re: The A.I. Project II
On 7 Nov 2002, at 6:57, jbrown105 at speedymail.org wrote:
>
> On 0, Kat <kat at kogeijin.com> wrote:
> > On 6 Nov 2002, at 15:38, C. K. Lester wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The primary consideration is "initial wiring," or, as I've been saying,
> > > "instinct."
> > >
> > > Start with worm instinct, get a full-potential worm.
> > > Start with monkey instinct, get a full-potential monkey.
> > > Start with human instinct, get a full-potential human.
> >
> > I haveto draw the line there. Some of us are "full potential humans", and
> > are
> > discarded. Yet humans want to build electronic clones of humans, to do what
> > we
> > could be doing, but aren't allowed to do.
> >
> > Kat
> >
>
> First off, how are you being discarded?
I get talked down to like i am a child when among most people, i cannot
assert anything positive about myself without being told by someone or other
that i am lying or in denial. I find i cannot convince anyone i can open a door
myself without a long drawn out arguement with lots of yelling and cursing. It
was brought to my attention that everyone thought i lived in a nursing home
because my hair was clean. I stopped washing my hair. My words were
discarded, but my hair being dirty conveys the same meaning to them, and
they accept the dirty hair.
> Second point, the electronic clones wouldn't be exact duplicates of
> humans,
> but would rather do all the boring tasks that most humans dont want to
> do,
> with a precision not available to most human brains.
>
> Thirdly, there is a price factor. Humans are labor and have to be paid
> continously,
> while the AIs are slaves and are a one time cost.
I have offered to pay people to let me work, but they still wouldn't let me work
there. Even when they knew i needed the work, because i was living in a tent
in the woods and eating weeds out of the pond there. I was once crawling to
work, on bloody knees, and one day the boss began demanding i stand for
work i had been sitting to do. That was my last day there, i didn't last the
day, he knew that was how to get rid of me. I was in tears, his kids laughed
and made fun of me when i left.
Kat
http://www.pell.net/warning/disability.html
12. Re: The A.I. Project II
- Posted by jslezak at luc.edu
Nov 07, 2002
How about a dog AI. I think most of us know a lot more about a dog than
worms. Although a dog is much more intelligent. I think it would be a bit
more fun, and practical. I seen some simulations where tricks are thought
to the do through audio commands.
Just a thought
Joel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kat" <kat at kogeijin.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: RE: The A.I. Project II
>
> On 7 Nov 2002, at 14:29, mistertrik at hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > I'd like to see some information, tutorials, or libraries that can use
> > simple neural nets. That's the sort of thing I want to get involved in,
but I
> > don't know much about them, or how they are implemented.
>
> Think "analog neurons". Think "cells" with multiple inputs, multiple
outputs,
> and mediated by the "chemicals" in the bloodstream and intracellular
space.
> Most neural nets have a few layers of cells with some feedback mechanism,
> some are moderated with a traditional computer, by changing the thresholds
> at which what makes what cells fire when. This can be done easily with Eu
> sequences.
>
> Kat
>
>
>
>
13. Re: The A.I. Project II
On 7 Nov 2002, at 6:52, jbrown105 at speedymail.org wrote:
<snip>
> Then don't be so isolated. Go out and venture into society if you feel
> like it.
It doesn't work like that.
http://www.pell.net/warning/disability.html
> If you want a text-based substitute, try a MOO (like lambda.moo.mud.org
> 8888)
> or Instant Messenging. (Personally, I like Virtual Societies better than
> the real versions - but thats just me ;)
I am an ircop on an irc network. I can't go to a movie with them, to dinner,
watch tv, watch meteors, go boating, visit the zoo, go shopping, etc etc etc.
> As for broadband internet, you look into cable, T1, or satilite DSL?
> Or, at the very minimum, are you using an IDSN connection?
For the nth time, i can't get anything over 10k reasonably. I can get a dsl 60
miles away for $80/month, i can get a T1 here for $1200/month. The T1 will
be linked to the 4 T1 lines in the substation 1/2 mile from me, but they won't
connect dsl to me from the same station, nor will they get me framerate,
isdn, rdsl, adsl, a 64K dead line to the isp, or anything else. Alabama sucks.
There is no logic to anything, and most people here can't seem to keep their
automobiles on a straight length of interstate (i passed 4 wrecks in 3 miles
the other nite, and on the back roads i was the only car on the proper side of
the road). Honestly, i got into "artificial" intelligence programming because
there is seriously no "natural" intelligence here.
Kat
14. Re: The A.I. Project II
> I like Euphoria, and it's lots of fun. I particularly enjoy
> the mailing list and have to admit the Euphoria community
> is the best bunch of people I have come across on the net.
*blushes*
---------------------------------------------
15. Re: The A.I. Project II
Kat,
You should not be discarded just because your in a wheelchair.I definately
dont think so,not at all. That would definately be a
problem(big understatement).Good luck with that one.I suggest you
sell the house and move to the good side of Birmingham(if there is
a good side of Birmingham).Thats what I'd probably do.Better internet,
more jobs,more convenience.
>From: Kat <kat at kogeijin.com>
>Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
>To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
>Subject: Re: The A.I. Project II
>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:56:44 -0600
>
>
>On 6 Nov 2002, at 15:38, C. K. Lester wrote:
>
> >
> > The primary consideration is "initial wiring," or, as I've been saying,
> > "instinct."
> >
> > Start with worm instinct, get a full-potential worm.
> > Start with monkey instinct, get a full-potential monkey.
> > Start with human instinct, get a full-potential human.
>
>I haveto draw the line there. Some of us are "full potential humans", and
>are
>discarded. Yet humans want to build electronic clones of humans, to do
>what we could be doing, but aren't allowed to do.
>
>Kat
>
>
>
16. Re: The A.I. Project II
- Posted by 1evan at sbcglobal.net
Nov 07, 2002
Doesn't a worm's brain tell its muscles to move?
C. K. Lester wrote:
>
>
>jslezak at luc.edu wrote:
>
>
>>How about a dog AI.
>>
>>
>I think we need to stay away from emulating an existing creature, unless
>it is very simple. When you suggest using a dog, now we really have to
>get into physiology... the brain signaling muscles to move.
>
>Let's just create our own worm.
>
>
>
>
--
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll
have to ram them down people's throats.
-- Howard Aiken
17. Re: The A.I. Project II
> Doesn't a worm's brain tell its muscles to move?
Yeah, but at least it doesn't have four legs or arms or eyelids and stuff
like that. It's a much simpler (though still not simple) body to control.
18. Re: The A.I. Project II
Not if one of its input/output channels was a shell.
=====================================================
.______<-------------------\__
/ _____<--------------------__|===
||_ <-------------------/
\__| Mr Trick
>From: jbrown105 at speedymail.org
>Subject: Re: The A.I. Project II
>
>
>On 0, "C. K. Lester" <cklester at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > When you talk about visibility,in my mind your talking about
>graphics,
> > > Im sure we can come up with some 2d stuff that looks great.
> >
> > When I talk about the AI entity's "visual" and "aural" abilities, I'm
> > talking hardware components. You would have to answer, "How does this
> > virtual creature 'see?'" "How will this virtual creature 'hear'?"
>Obviously,
> > you'll have to have graphic and sound processing code (code to analyze a
> > "picture" and be able to make distinctions in what it finds; code to
>take
> > noise and find relevance somewhere), which already takes this project
>beyond
> > a short-term exercise in fun. :)
> >
>
>Or the AI could live in a world of text, and just analyze that via its
>"eyes"
>and "ears". Of course, this is usually the domain of chatterbots.
>
>jbrown
>
>
>--
>
>
>
19. Re: The A.I. Project II
I'd be glad to join in this global exercise, which could show the real
deep strength of Euphoria, in spite of the various inconveniences.
First of all, I can't imagine doing any serious work on this before
Feb. 2003. Just in case this is an issue.
The Eu Thing should be able to react to a partly unpredictible
environment. By this I mean an environment formed of fixed patterns,
some slowly moving patterns and unexpected things once in a while.
So, the Eu thing can't be alone. It should have clones or variations it
may meet and observe, and also other entities some of which may be real
dumb - learning by error is so impressively efficient -.
Thus, Yhe Eu Thing should have several senses, sending contradictory
input in some rare cases. First, TET accesses raw input - color patches,
textures, or whatever more simple we can come up with -.
It should have a basic evaluation function - sort of energy level - and
an evaluation of this function - initially very low -.
The idea is that TET could grow more sophisticated with time. For
instance, it will learn than cooperating with like-monded entities is
better for its energy, thus inducing it into adding friendship into its
evaluation function, and inducing it to learn how to make efficient use
of this newly discovered skill. It would soon learn than being friendly
without discernment may not be advantageous, etc etc
So, all entities should be able to dynamically develop - procedures to
extract information from raw input
- procedures to evaluate the information
- procedures to evaluate the evaluatoon function
- procedures to change the ones above
We may need a lot of inline ASM here, since this seems to be the
easiest way to execute dynamuc code.
I think the 3d stuff is completely external and could even be written
in another language if needed.
Have a nice day!
CChris
