1. [pete] pcan wiki

I messed up your pcan.

Your "create page" is now "wikipedia". You can find some comments on the wikipedia article there. You have to look at the 'edit' page since wikipedia markup does not go well with the wiki.

Sorry about that.

be well
_tom

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2. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

No worries mate, restored with a single click, thanks for letting me know!

Actually I think I perhaps misunderstood and did that without thinking, anyway I've (now) got a local copy I can read.

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3. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

Looks fine. (new h i/c), (an/the, br), (eu -> 2 lines) - all fine/agreed.
(1.0) - Quite right, that is an internal truth to me that nobody else needs to know or will ever care about.
(too dense) - Agreed, I pile in everything that might be useful, feel free to delete anything not. Less words === better.
How about: A Phix object is simply any data, be that a primitive integer, string, routine_id, dictionary, class instance, or even a nested sequence of any mix of them.
(graphics) - hmm, ascii art is so last century, surely we can do better.
"points to the corresponding collective data structure" - not sure about that one.
too much detail about 0-based indexing - agreed
python - nicely written, not sure if it makes for a good wp reference: https://railsware.com/blog/python-for-machine-learning-indexing-and-slicing-for-lists-tuples-strings-and-other-sequential-types/

my quick python tutorial:

>>> nums = [10, 20, 30, 40, 50] 
>>> nums[0:1] 
[10] 
>>> nums[0] 
10 
>>> nums[-1] 
50 
>>> nums[-1:] 
[50] 
>>> nums[-1:-1] 
[] 
>>> nums[-1:0] 
[] 
>>> nums[-1:4] 
[] 
>>> nums[-1:5] 
[50] 
>>> nums[-1:6] 
[50] 
>>> nums[-1:9999] 
[50] 
>>> nums[0:9999] 
[10, 20, 30, 40, 50] 

Interestingly, (I never knew this, cmiiw) while you can omit the end slice to get the last element, in python there is no negative slice end index that you can specify to get it...
Anyway, that's no help is it, we're supposed to be trying to cut this thing down! (Everything possible with 1-based indexes is doable with 0-based, apart from ^that^, and crash-on-0)
If you can imagine it, then it is possible.
we can't gloat about this in a wikipedia article - true
don't care about the trick --/* style since wikipedia does not need this detail - true
a double hyphen, a C-style, probably.
"obviously" - yep, kill 'em all, they are completely unnecessary.
Phix has OOP, that should be enough to appease the unwashed - true
sounds a bit like advertising - agreed
cathartic - certainly.

Don't worry about trashing stuff - I could probably use some of it to put on my web page anyway...

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4. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

http://phix.x10.mx/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Main.TomWikipedia

I think it's time to copy this over to wikipedia, and get some feedback.

  • need: final grammar check
  • need: colorize the source-code

be well
_tom

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5. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

A sequence is a list of objects, not values.

Values implies numericity. "Fred" has no quantity or value (sorry, Fred!)

Yet "Fred" can part of any sequence he likes.

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6. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

irv said...

Values implies numericity.

Really? What about work values, personal and character values, material vs. human values, or a film's production values?
I suppose you could mean the latter in terms of box office takings, but I've always thought of it in terms of artistic integrity, good lighting, quality sound, clear dialog, stunning panaoramas, etc.
Does the term "nothing of value to say" only ever refer to money or quantity?

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7. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

said...

The program will then run until the condition (i=1234) is met, before single-stepping through the subsequent code.

This somewhat implies that you can set a condition on a variable (i, in this case), turning it on when a variable reaches a certain value. That would be nice, if true.

But I can't test it at all, because trace() doesn't work on Linux:

with trace 
trace(1) 
for i = 1 to 10 do 
   ?i 
end for 

pDiagN.e line 3064: oops, rtn[=9184] out of range[1..1402] 
pDiagN.e line 3322: symtab[420] bad S_NTyp[3] 
{-1,3,0,8194,0,0,1,0,-54,0,1,1,0,0,0} 
"sleep(5)..." 
pDiagN.e line 3064: oops, rtn[=9637] out of range[1..1402] 
pDiagN.e line 3064: oops, rtn[=9730] out of range[1..1402] 
/home/irv/test1.ex:-1 (era=#007EC91A, from_addr=#0, ret_addr=#0) 
attempt to divide by 0 
 
The ever-informative ex.err:
pDiagN.e line 3322: symtab[420] bad S_NTyp[3] 
/home/irv/test1.ex:-1 (era=#007EC91A, from_addr=#0, ret_addr=#0) 
attempt to divide by 0 
 
Global & Local Variables 
 
 /home/irv/test1.ex: 
    i = <novalue> 
 

So much for the "always provides useful error messages and line numbers" - I can't find a line -1 in my program anywhere. Maybe it fell off the screen?

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8. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

irv said...

trace() doesn't work on Linux

I'll need a moment...

The problem is that builtins/pscreen.e is completely kaput on linux, specifically
save_text_image() and display_text_image(), which trace uses for the F1/F2 flip between trace and console.
(I believe Euphoria fakes it with a dummy screen image buffer, along with some nasty ncurses handling,
all hooked up into anything and everywhere that could ever possibly update the console screen.)

The good news is that by adding (several) crash("linux!") under if platform()=WINDOWS tests in that file,
I've reproduced the problem on windows (where I'm a bit more comfortable debugging this sort of stuff).
My plan is to get builtins\VM\pTrace.e [on linux] to work without using save/display_text_image, which
with a little luck should get trace working on linux, sans F1/F2. (It has never worked at all.)
That may take a little while, and stumble headfirst into other roadblocks along the way.

PS The line -1 is because trace/debug are not expecting anything in p[.exe] itself to crash.

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9. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

I rarely use trace, and I can't recall it ever actually helping me find a problem, but that's just my experience.

So no big deal.

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10. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:The_Phix_Programming_Language  

Starting to look like an article.

Fixed definition of sequence (was a cut-and-paste issue).

Stating Phix has "five primitive types" was my last major change in defining the language.

be well
_tom

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11. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

petelomax said...
irv said...

Values implies numericity.

Really? What about work values, personal and character values, material vs. human values, or a film's production values?
I suppose you could mean the latter in terms of box office takings, but I've always thought of it in terms of artistic integrity, good lighting, quality sound, clear dialog, stunning panaoramas, etc.
Does the term "nothing of value to say" only ever refer to money or quantity?

Valid point, however there was once a Ai db that numerically quantified a common list of qualities of each descriptor you raised.

Kat

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12. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

You can add 0.8.3, maintenance release 02/02/21 to the history.
I spotted a "(unlike Javascript": kill the ( or add the ).

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13. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

petelomax said...

You can add 0.8.3, maintenance release 02/02/21 to the history.
I spotted a "(unlike Javascript": kill the ( or add the ).

Updated.

I clicked submit. They say wait up to four months.

be well
_tom

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14. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

Your submission at Articles for creation: The Phix Programming Language (February 13) AFC-Logo Decline.svg

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reasons left by AngusWOOF were:

This submission's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject. Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see technical help and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia. This submission is not suitable for Wikipedia. Please read 'What Wikipedia is not' for more information.

The comment the reviewer left was:

Wikipedia is not a web host / manual. Please add context as to how this language is notable by supplying external news sources that critique and review the language.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:The Phix Programming Language and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.

If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:The Phix Programming Language, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "Db-g7" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.

If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.

If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 20:06, 13 February 2021 (UTC) Teahouse logo

Hello, Tomchipmunk! Having an article declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 20:06, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

be well
_tom

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15. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

It's not worth the effort, as I said before.

People interested in a new (to them) programming language aren't going to look in Wikipedia for information or recommendations. What is there is not useful to a programmer, maybe to a historian (although the accuracy of Wikipedia is dubious at best).

Rosettacode, perhaps. There they can compare Phix code with something they already know.

If you must get listed in Wiki for some reason, then find a college, convince some CS students to write a paper comparing Phix to some other language(s), and link to their research.

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16. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

irv said...

trace() doesn't work on Linux:

I've uploaded a replacement builtins\VM\pTrace.e

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17. Re: [pete] pcan wiki

Regarding the second rejection:

Probably inevitable given what AngusWOOF has just seen: pretty much just two edits in six weeks.
Six weeks in, I realise that AngusWOOF is genuinely trying to be helpful, is giving the right advice/suggestions, and has even made a couple of useful edits for us.
So, first take a copy of work done so far (I already have), accept that Phix is not yet ready for wikipedia, and switch focus as suggested:
Create projects on github
Ask questions on stack overflow
Write personal blog entries
Submit articles to (eg) CodeProject, OSNews, gitconnected, ...

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