Re: Is Phix the new de facto standard for Eu programmers?
- Posted by jimcbrown (admin) Feb 07, 2021
- 1887 views
I have great aspirations .....
And then you limited the expansion of OE to the usual stuff in almost all languages....
Sounds more like Greg simply hasn't had time to get to the bigger things.
Things I'd like to see in Euphoria include threads, classes, and a built in compiler, all of which Phix now has.
I am not against all that, i'd like to see a bit of it too, i was very happy to see Matt's OOEU, and i did play with the early Bach versions.
Heavy check mark.
If you remember, around that time frame, i was experimenting with swapping code in the form of DLLs in and out of running programs by using load/unload, and found a huge memory leak in the process. Using DLLs had other problems, and no one was in favor of the feature. I also recently acknowledged this...
Sounds like quite a nice project.
But I have entirely different ideas on how they should behave or be implemented within Euphoria itself
as one of the perfectly valid reasons OE stopped growing.
Greg having different ideas on how things should be implemented by itself wouldn't actually hinder OE's development. The bigger problem is that Phix is self-hosting and relies on assembly too deeply to allow for easy integration into OE. At this point, it's probably easier to reimplement the small handful of things that OE has which Phix lacks (if there is anything) for Phix, and then go on from there.
I later edited my post away.
But OE isn't growing, changing, evolving, splintering,
I hit the same nail that you, Greg, etc all got. I set up experimental branches for things like threads and string execution, hoping to get help after feeling the job was too big for me to finish myself. No one ever came.
except for Phix. And i applaud Phix, but i cannot help but fear it will be constrained to one incremental step of growth.
I too hope that this does not happen.
Like i deleted the DLL swapping code years ago, and most of irc.e years before that, a couple days ago i deleted all the globally sharing code. It's big step stuff OE could do, regardless of what features it has in common with other languages.
As I've said elsewhere, this is quite the shame. The current team would quite happily accept virtually all of this.
I do plenty of "computering" elsewhere but unfortunately I find myself in a continuous Catch-22 paradox: I cannot use Euphoria for my work projects because it is not modern enough for those purposes,
I also have this problem.
I meant "computering" with and within OE itself. At least catching up to OOEU.
This at least is fairly easy. The reason that OE is missing some features that OOEU had is because mattlewis, the author of OOEU, didn't want to add them to OE. It wouldn't be too hard to take the code from OOEU and get it merged into OE at this point.
I don't want to compare OE/Phix to other current languages, but there's things i could do with computers 30+ years ago that i cannot do in any language on any modern computer!
Today, at least, fire is used to make car engines run, steam turbines make electricity. But OE cannot really do any more to munge data today than was done in a Vic20 or C64 or ZX80 or Apple 40 years ago.
I completely disagree with this statement. Firstly, because data munging hasn't really changed in the entire history of electronic computing.
Seconded.
Ok, how many modern languages allow you to stop the program, fiddle around in the variables, edit some source code, and restart at any point in the program (with caveats) as if it was never stopped?
Virtually all of them. Java (done it in Eclipse and IntelliJ), C# (via Visual Studio), Javascript, ...
I believe I've even done this with C and gdb, of all things..
But not Eu.
How many allow you to swap source code while running, like i did with DLLs?
Okay, this is a bit trickier for Java, but see above with editing source code - you can simulate most of this with that.
How many allow the program to build a list of the variables and then look at the values?
Both Java and C# allow this via reflection (with some caveats). I'm less familiar with the JavsScript reflection api, but it's there, so I assume it can be done as well.
How many languages come ready to communicate to the world (at the table-top level) the physical computer?
This is more of a distribution issue. I can name a whole bunch if you count Linux/GNU computers that are shipped from vendors like System76.
I did all that and more in the early 1980's, and cannot with a modern language, so i must stand by what i said.
And I stand by Greg here. But I'd agree with the both of you that OE lacks this.
And OE cannot know what it does and does not know, so machine learning is out.
Actually, Python is a popular language with machine learning. I imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to rewrite something like SciPy in Eu if someone were interested...
What i did with global vars had one huge gotcha: it was very convoluted and buggy to get the entire program (or series of programs) to use new proceedures added during runtime (this was also a problem with swapping DLLS).
Still worthwhile, imvho.
And second, because I have recently implemented several new tools for processing "modern" types of data, such as my JSON, HTML, and template parsers.
You do not think form manipulation and parsing was done 40+ years ago?
Two different things -> "modern types of data" vs "form manipulation"
Did you forget i had added a SGML parser to a strtok version many years ago? Perhaps you remember the overt fighting it caused, over the use of "strings", "tokens" (words),
I don't - sounds like it was before my time here.
thereby causing the destruction of the basic concept of Eu itself.
Well .. I can assure you that this wouldn't be the case today.
To wrap this up, it's fine with me if Phix is a standard,
Seconded.
but "standard" implies "static", and OE is already static.
Kat
Agreed, sadly.
Can you do me a huge favor? Would it be possible to put together a list of these ideas and improvements for modernizing Euphoria? Either post it here or email me directly if you wish.
I would like to decline.
Sad to hear it.
Suggestions cause bad feelings.
Some people need to grow thicker armour. Fortunately, most of those seem to no longer be active in the community.
I feel each suggestion will start a new separate flame war, gradually growing more personal. This is historically how Euphorum works.
Not since we introduced the code of conduct and introduced better moderation (policies which apply to this day).
I wouldn't dare tell you how you should spend your time, but I'd just like to make this point clear - if you ever decide to contribute anything again, no one will take it personally and your contributions will be treated with the value that they deserve.
Pete is already posting [deleted] , so i went back and [deleted] a post or two of mine.
Well, a friendly joke poking fun at the forum every now and then is still okay (assuming no CoC violation - in this case obviously there wasn't any.)
In 1990 i began converting a dictionary to be an XML table, and it was years later before i got online with win95B.
Ah! That explains why the earliest posts I knew of for you on this forum were from 1999. Very cool.
