Re: Euphoria isn't dying - just needs a jolly good kick!

new topic     » goto parent     » topic index » view thread      » older message » newer message
DerekParnell said...
Shian_Lee said...

The biggest mistake, in my opinion, of Euphoria developers, is to target the language to experienced programmers. i.e.: being not realistic.

I do not think that the developers are targeting the language to any group in particular. What evidence can you present that leads you to your conclusion?

Answer: Euphoria is quite an unknown language. you can google for it. it's a fact. Those who actually understand the benefits of Euphoria are usually already programmers. The developers are actually targeting the language to specific group by NOT targeting the language to other groups. "NOT" is the keyword here.

Shian_Lee said...

A programming language is like a baby. Baby don't born at the age of 21 years old.

By ignoring young and not experience programmers - Euphoria actually blocked its future. Why can't you all understand it?

Why do you think that inexperienced programmers are being ignored?

And do you think that Euphoria should also cater for the needs of programmers, regardless of their level of experience?

Answer: because for reaching inexperienced programmers, a different approach must be used: you should supply them ready-to-use and easy-to-use tools. They still don't know what is a byte.

Yes. Euphoria should also cater for the needs of programmers. for the same reason that Linux/GNU/MATE needs to cater for the needs of its users: To be popular, to be known, to get more attention, to get more donations, to survive, and to get the place that it deserves - high.

    • *
Shian_Lee said...

For example, how would you all feel if I'll take you to a Tea Kwon Do lesson and expect from you to practice jump hook kick on the first day? - you would all break your backs and be rushed to hospital.

What you're doing is deliberately ignoring young and unexperienced programmers.

In my opinion, you are mistaken with your assessment of Euphoria, and I'd like to know why you think this so that we can work out how to make using Euphoria a joy for all programmers.

Answer: 20 years ago+/-, QuickBasic 4.5 presented unique concept: you could choose "easy menus" or "advanced menus". MS$ programmers realized, from the beginning, that they must supply different set of tools for beginners and professionals. i.e. while you and me cannot live without the command line - new users cannot live with it. then why not let them press F5 instead of typing "eui hello.ex"? After pressing F5 for 10000 times, maybe they will feel more confidence to use the "black hole" (the command line).

Shian_Lee said...

Answers as: look at the editors list, tools list, and take a patch from here and combine it with a patch from there - is an immature and pathetic strategy.

Can you please give precise examples of what you mean. I'm having some trouble in understanding what exactly is your issues with it. I can't comment on the "immature and pathetic" slur until I understand what you are referring to.

Answer: "immature and pathetic" is not a slur. I respect all of you; that's why I allow my self to talk like this. All of the developers are obviously very intelligent and can read between the words. So please don't get me wrong. I am talking about a strategy. A strategy that will "touch the heart" of new and young programmers. This is about psychology, not just programming. People like visual things. To make Euphoria popular you must consider this fact, and create for them a visual environment - instead of documents. Documents are not bestsellers. that's all. specially for young programmers. They like to see some impressive results before reading a lot. They like desktops and IDE's. Don't get me wrong again: personally I am addicted to the command line.

Shian_Lee said...

The target users for an easy-to-use-all-purpose-language must be EVERYONE to succeed. User should play with the language and enjoy it. If one of 100 users will become a serious programmer it's enough. Users should create their own "fun clubs" for the language. Unexperienced users should get excited from the language after writing "hello world!". The language should reach the people.

And what exactly is preventing people from doing this with Euphoria?

Answer: the process of downloading, then setting EUDIR then setting EUINC, then adding /bin to the path, then get a basic idea what is the correct syntax of cd (change dir), then maybe export EUDIR in /.profile, etc - just to be able to run "hello world", is hard for people that never used the "black hole" before. For you and me it all looks fun. for new programmers it might be a nightmare. - Let them write 'puts(1, "hello world!")' and press F5 first. Let them enjoy Euphoria before they have to read the user manual for Xterm, bash or CMD. Let them enjoy. then the language will become popular. These days many users don't have any idea what CMD is for. I guess you must know that.

Shian_Lee said...

Euphoria is too arrogant. and that's what blocking its popularity.

Can you show me evidence of this "arrogance"? Maybe its just that you and I are using the word differently.

Answer: the answer is simple. Euphoria started long time ago. at those days everybody used the "black hole". These days new programmers afraid to be vanished into the "black hole". But Euphoria laughs at their fears. Again: I think that it's ridiculous that people don't use the command line, but it's the reality. New programmers will have to know the command line soon or later, but it's better that they'll start to use Euphoria straight away and learn the command line and the OS characteristics later, more slowly, side by side with Euphoria.

Shian_Lee said...

Please wake up: Euphoria should be friendly for 15 years old teens to become popular. MS$ invested a fortune to make their products friendly - just to make them popular.

Do you happen to have a fortune available to invest in Euphoria? I don't.

Answer: MS$ needs a fortune because every 2 years they distribute their same products in another suit. i.e. what's the big advantage of MS-Access 2013 over MS-Access 2000? - no big advantage; it simply wearing a different suit. a very expensive suit. Euphoria developers need the time to create an IDE for Euphoria, to gain popularity for the language. Of course this time is precious for many other things. But that's all it takes: time. Because I know by fact that the developers of Euphoria are extremely talented. So, we don't need a fortune.

Shian_Lee said...

Now that Euphoria 3 is mature, and Euphoria 4 is great - it's about time to invest effort on making it friendly. Those who criticized the importance of Euphoria IDE are blind and misleading. MS$ invested from QBASIC to "Visual Studio" billions because you cannot gain popularity by targeting your products to old users. Only the young users can make it. MS$ knows it.

Again, why do you think that "old users" are the only ones being catered for? I really can't see it myself and I'd appreciate some help in understanding what exactly it is that you see.

Answer: the "old users" know how to use the black hole. that's all. I am sure that you can read between the words as well.

Shian_Lee said...

Why Euphoria is so arrogant??? Is Euphoria has some kind of feelings of inferiority? Euphoria isn't C++ - that's the great thing! Euphoria isn't Basic - that's also the great thing! Why targeting Euphoria to professionals by introducing the language with vocabulary that new users never heard about?

Excuse me if I'm jumping to conclusions, but I'm pretty sure you have taken the effort to learn more than one human language. When first starting to learn, did you know that there was an enormous vocabulary that you'd potentially have to learn? Did that put you off trying? Did the existence of 'hard' words and idioms prevent you from learning the easy ones first? I bet that at the beginning, there were words that you didn't even knew existed - idioms that you'd never heard about. Was that a problem for you?

There is nothing in Euphoria that forces a newcomer to use the 'advanced' aspects of the language. One can happily write programs using only the simpler parts of the language, and as one learns more about its capabilities, one can choose to use different parts of the language, if they so desire. But you are not pushed into it.

Or are you suggesting that Euphoria ONLY cater for beginner programmers. That is rhetorical because I know already that that's not what you believe. But it could be one of the consequences of not allowing Euphoria to expand its capabilities; not allowing different styles of coding and algorithm expression.

Answer: sorry you misunderstood my meaning. I was not talking about the Euphoria *language* - which is the most friendly that exist. I was taking about the words that a new programmer have to face when first installing and using Euphoria. For example: export EUDIR in /.profile. Please understand that these days many Linux users, that wish to try this great language, Euphoria, don't know what is 'export', PATH, set, bash, etc. And bash is million times more complicated then Euphoria. 'bash' is not a forgiving friend. you can try whole day to understand what's wrong with your 2 lines of bash code - but if you're not experienced, it's impossible. the bash syntax antique, and the new programmer never heard about such thing as login sessions.

It's better to hide this stuff from a beginner, and let the IDE check and take care of these things. imagine a new programmer, adding export $PATH just after exit command... he will end up killing him self. and for beginner in programming - 'exit' means nothing but an optional way out, if he actually noticed it.

    • *
Shian_Lee said...

It's fine to add struct to Euphoria - lots of experienced programmers might be benefit from it. But don't fool yourselves that it will gain any popularity to this language, because popularity is gained by young and fresh people - not by middle age professionals.

I talk too much but this is really annoying. Non of the developers seem to understand the evolution of popularity - it always starts from young and unexperienced people - which Euphoria ignores deliberately.

By the time I started learning Euphoria, I was already an old and very experienced programmer. I've been in the business since the early 1970s. And yet, I managed quite well in becoming excited by the language. I only mention this to show that it is not ONLY young and inexperienced people that can jump onto a new thing.

Answer: the old people know the correct way to fight and win. but the young people should climb the walls and hold the spears.

new topic     » goto parent     » topic index » view thread      » older message » newer message


Quick Links

User menu

Not signed in.

Misc Menu