Re: Euphoria isn't dying - just needs a jolly good kick!

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Shian_Lee said...

The biggest mistake, in my opinion, of Euphoria developers, is to target the language to experienced programmers. i.e.: being not realistic.

I do not think that the developers are targeting the language to any group in particular. What evidence can you present that leads you to your conclusion?

Shian_Lee said...

A programming language is like a baby. Baby don't born at the age of 21 years old.

By ignoring young and not experience programmers - Euphoria actually blocked its future. Why can't you all understand it?

Why do you think that inexperienced programmers are being ignored?

And do you think that Euphoria should also cater for the needs of programmers, regardless of their level of experience?

Shian_Lee said...

For example, how would you all feel if I'll take you to a Tea Kwon Do lesson and expect from you to practice jump hook kick on the first day? - you would all break your backs and be rushed to hospital.

What you're doing is deliberately ignoring young and unexperienced programmers.

In my opinion, you are mistaken with your assessment of Euphoria, and I'd like to know why you think this so that we can work out how to make using Euphoria a joy for all programmers.

Shian_Lee said...

Answers as: look at the editors list, tools list, and take a patch from here and combine it with a patch from there - is an immature and pathetic strategy.

Can you please give precise examples of what you mean. I'm having some trouble in understanding what exactly is your issues with it. I can't comment on the "immature and pathetic" slur until I understand what you are referring to.

Shian_Lee said...

The target users for an easy-to-use-all-purpose-language must be EVERYONE to succeed. User should play with the language and enjoy it. If one of 100 users will become a serious programmer it's enough. Users should create their own "fun clubs" for the language. Unexperienced users should get excited from the language after writing "hello world!". The language should reach the people.

And what exactly is preventing people from doing this with Euphoria?

Shian_Lee said...

Euphoria is too arrogant. and that's what blocking its popularity.

Can you show me evidence of this "arrogance"? Maybe its just that you and I are using the word differently.

Shian_Lee said...

Please wake up: Euphoria should be friendly for 15 years old teens to become popular. MS$ invested a fortune to make their products friendly - just to make them popular.

Do you happen to have a fortune available to invest in Euphoria? I don't.

Shian_Lee said...

Now that Euphoria 3 is mature, and Euphoria 4 is great - it's about time to invest effort on making it friendly. Those who criticized the importance of Euphoria IDE are blind and misleading. MS$ invested from QBASIC to "Visual Studio" billions because you cannot gain popularity by targeting your products to old users. Only the young users can make it. MS$ knows it.

Again, why do you think that "old users" are the only ones being catered for? I really can't see it myself and I'd appreciate some help in understanding what exactly it is that you see.

Shian_Lee said...

Why Euphoria is so arrogant??? Is Euphoria has some kind of feelings of inferiority? Euphoria isn't C++ - that's the great thing! Euphoria isn't Basic - that's also the great thing! Why targeting Euphoria to professionals by introducing the language with vocabulary that new users never heard about?

Excuse me if I'm jumping to conclusions, but I'm pretty sure you have taken the effort to learn more than one human language. When first starting to learn, did you know that there was an enormous vocabulary that you'd potentially have to learn? Did that put you off trying? Did the existence of 'hard' words and idioms prevent you from learning the easy ones first? I bet that at the beginning, there were words that you didn't even knew existed - idioms that you'd never heard about. Was that a problem for you?

There is nothing in Euphoria that forces a newcomer to use the 'advanced' aspects of the language. One can happily write programs using only the simpler parts of the language, and as one learns more about its capabilities, one can choose to use different parts of the language, if they so desire. But you are not pushed into it.

Or are you suggesting that Euphoria ONLY cater for beginner programmers. That is rhetorical because I know already that that's not what you believe. But it could be one of the consequences of not allowing Euphoria to expand its capabilities; not allowing different styles of coding and algorithm expression.

Shian_Lee said...

It's fine to add struct to Euphoria - lots of experienced programmers might be benefit from it. But don't fool yourselves that it will gain any popularity to this language, because popularity is gained by young and fresh people - not by middle age professionals.

I talk too much but this is really annoying. Non of the developers seem to understand the evolution of popularity - it always starts from young and unexperienced people - which Euphoria ignores deliberately.

By the time I started learning Euphoria, I was already an old and very experienced programmer. I've been in the business since the early 1970s. And yet, I managed quite well in becoming excited by the language. I only mention this to show that it is not ONLY young and inexperienced people that can jump onto a new thing.

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