1. Survey - Please Participate
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
Jan 28, 2001
-
Last edited Jan 29, 2001
Hi,
I am asking everyone who has a few spare minutes to fill out a Euphoria
survey.
The results will be sent to the list about 1 week from now (or a few
days after
the last response).
This is a small and reasonably simple survey. If the participation is
good and
the results are of value and the feedback is positive I "might" consider
doing a more
indepth web based Survey at some time in the future (6 months - 2 years
in the future).
To participate in the survey forward this email to smithr at ix.net.au
filling in the
answers as appropriate.
Place an X or your written answer next to each questions answer.
e.g.
-----------EXAMPLES-------------------
Do you Love using Euphoria?
Yes X
No
What are your TOP 3 features/libraries you'd like to see in Euphoria?
A complete cross platform GUI
An IDE
OO features
--------END EXAMPLES------------------
Thanks to everyone who participates and Lewis Townsend, Aidan Bindoff
and
SR Williamson for input.
^^^You may wish to delete everything above before forwarding.^^^
---------------------SURVEY--------------------------------
1. What platform(s) do you currently use Euphoria on?
a. DOS32
b. Windows
c. Linux
2. What (currently available) Euphoria ports are you likely to use in
the future?
DOS
Euphoria
Linux
None (I'm happy using what I use now)
3. What other platforms would you like Euphoria to support?
Mac
BeOS
Solaris
Other: Please Specify -
4. How beneficial (to you) is the fact that Euphoria is Cross Platform?
High
Medium
Low
5. Is Euphoria your preferred development language?
(i.e. your favorite)
Yes
No
6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming related area?
Yes
No
7. What types of programs do you currently write/or intend to write with
Euphoria
(as it is now with the currently available functionality)?
Games/Entertainment
General Business Applications
Internet Related
Data Manipulation
Educational
Other: please specify
8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
environment?
(Released shareware/freeware software can be included)
DOS32
Windows
Linux
None
9. List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which
would allow you
to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)
Notes:
* Home hobbyists can still write commercial quality software.
* You can add things like a "complete" GUI toolkit or ODBC wrapper since
these
currently available libraries are still pre-release
10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
Yes
No
If NO - Would you like to distribute programs in the future?
Yes
No
11. How long have you been using Euphoria?
0-3 Months
3-12 Months
1-2 years
2 Years or more
12. If you didn't use Euphoria what other language would you use?
Visual Basic
Delphi
C++ (MS/Borland/Watcom etc)
Java
Python
Perl
Other: please specify
13. Would you be willing to pay for quality products/add-ons?
(e.g. Examples like an IDE/GUI toolkit?)
Yes
No
14. For you personally, how beneficial is the "Namespace" enhancement
that has been
suggested is the next major enhancement for Euphoria?
Notes: My basic understanding is this will allow different Euphoria
include files to
use the same variable/routine names without causing conflicts.
High
Medium
Low
15. How beneficial is/will the Euphoria Translator be for you?
High
Medium
Low
16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last
subscript?
Notes:
e.g. ? x [2..5][3]
This would NOT break current code because it is currently
not legal. Example uses would include but not be limited to:
* vertical slicing of a bitmap
* retrieving all values of one field from a sequence of records.
High
Medium
Low
17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences be?
Notes:
This would allow subscripts to be BUILT programmatically.
Currently if we want to subscript, we have to specify how
far into the sequence we are delving by the number of square
brackets[] we use. This suggested extension would allow you
to subscript a sequence that you don't know the structure to.
This would NOT break current code because it is currently
not legal.
High
medium
Low
18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
(By "format" I mean 1 list with everything related to Euphoria.
Not the fact we are now using Topica)
Yes
No
19. From a new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria have been
to
install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?
Much easier
A little easier
No difference
------------END SURVEY----------------------
Thanks
Ray Smith
http;//www.geocities.com/ray_223
____________________________________________________________
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2. Re: Survey - Please Participate
- Posted by Aidan Bindoff <abindoff at ONE.NET.AU>
Jan 28, 2001
-
Last edited Jan 29, 2001
>---------------------SURVEY--------------------------------
>
>1. What platform(s) do you currently use Euphoria on?
>a. DOS32 x
>b. Windows x
>c. Linux
>
>
>2. What (currently available) Euphoria ports are you likely to use in
>the future?
>DOS
>Euphoria
>Linux x
>None (I'm happy using what I use now)
>
>
>3. What other platforms would you like Euphoria to support?
>Mac
>BeOS
>Solaris
>Other: Please Specify -
>
>
>4. How beneficial (to you) is the fact that Euphoria is Cross Platform?
>High
>Medium
>Low x
>
>
>5. Is Euphoria your preferred development language?
>(i.e. your favorite)
>Yes x
>No
>
>
>6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming related area?
>Yes x
>No
>
>
>7. What types of programs do you currently write/or intend to write with
>Euphoria
>(as it is now with the currently available functionality)?
>Games/Entertainment
>General Business Applications x
>Internet Related
>Data Manipulation x
>Educational
>Other: please specify
>
>
>8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
>environment?
>(Released shareware/freeware software can be included)
>DOS32
>Windows
>Linux
>None
>
>
>9. List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which
>would allow you
>to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)
>Notes:
>* Home hobbyists can still write commercial quality software.
>* You can add things like a "complete" GUI toolkit or ODBC wrapper since
>these
>currently available libraries are still pre-release
>
>
>10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
>Yes
>No x
>If NO - Would you like to distribute programs in the future?
> Yes
> No Maybe
>
>
>11. How long have you been using Euphoria?
>0-3 Months
>3-12 Months
>1-2 years x
>2 Years or more
>
>
>12. If you didn't use Euphoria what other language would you use?
>Visual Basic
>Delphi x
>C++ (MS/Borland/Watcom etc)
>Java
>Python
>Perl
>Other: please specify K (www.kx.com)
>
>
>13. Would you be willing to pay for quality products/add-ons?
>(e.g. Examples like an IDE/GUI toolkit?)
>Yes x
>No
>
>
>14. For you personally, how beneficial is the "Namespace" enhancement
>that has been
>suggested is the next major enhancement for Euphoria?
>Notes: My basic understanding is this will allow different Euphoria
>include files to
>use the same variable/routine names without causing conflicts.
>High
>Medium x
>Low
>
>
>15. How beneficial is/will the Euphoria Translator be for you?
>High x - but, I'd probably be better off with a faster CPU
>Medium
>Low
>
>
>16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last
>subscript?
>Notes:
>e.g. ? x [2..5][3]
>This would NOT break current code because it is currently
>not legal. Example uses would include but not be limited to:
>* vertical slicing of a bitmap
>* retrieving all values of one field from a sequence of records.
>High x - however, can only recall one instance
>Medium
>Low
>
>
>17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences be?
>Notes:
>This would allow subscripts to be BUILT programmatically.
>Currently if we want to subscript, we have to specify how
>far into the sequence we are delving by the number of square
>brackets[] we use. This suggested extension would allow you
>to subscript a sequence that you don't know the structure to.
>This would NOT break current code because it is currently
>not legal.
>High
>medium Sounds handy
>Low
>
>
>18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
>(By "format" I mean 1 list with everything related to Euphoria.
>Not the fact we are now using Topica)
>Yes x
>No
>
>
>19. From a new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria have been
>to
>install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?
>Much easier
>A little easier
>No difference x
>
>
>------------END SURVEY----------------------
>
>Thanks
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3. Re: Survey - Please Participate
- Posted by Aidan Bindoff <abindoff at ONE.NET.AU>
Jan 28, 2001
-
Last edited Jan 29, 2001
Sorry, that was not supposed to go to the list!
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4. Re: Survey - Please Participate
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
Jan 28, 2001
-
Last edited Jan 29, 2001
Ray Smith wrote:
Maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood, but I found a lot of problems with this
survey.
For example, there are several questions that focus on "commercial"
software, and none on "hobbyist". What is value of knowing if someone is a
'business' user? Should 'hobbyists' (who paid the same $30 as everyone else)
be counted less, or 'commercial' writers more so?
Other issues:
> 6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming related area?
> Yes
> No
This personal information is relevant because..?
> 8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
> environment?
Why is the use in a 'commercial' environment relevant?
> 9. List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which
> would allow you to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)
Again, a focus on 'commercial'.
> 10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
This is relevant because..?
> 14. For you personally, how beneficial is the
> "Namespace" enhancement that has been suggested
> is the next major enhancement for Euphoria?
It's already been agreed that (1) this is important, and (2) this is the
next thing on Robert's list. The only reason I can possibly see for putting
this question in a 'survey' is because one or more of the authors have their
pet projects done first.
> 16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last
subscript?
> 17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences be?
It would be one thing to include a fairly long list of wish list items and
as people to rank them, or select their top three. But by focusing on these
two particular items, I again feel like the author(s) is trying to use it to
further their own personal agenda.
> 18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
> (By "format" I mean 1 list with everything related to Euphoria.
This question isn't clear. As opposed to having a DOS32/Win32/Linux list?
> 19. From a new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria
> have been to install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?
> Much easier
> A little easier
> No difference
There are compelling reasons why Robert isn't using a 'modern' installer:
1. Smaller download
2. Cross-platform
3. Simplicity
4. Windows not required.
By not including 'A little harder' and 'Much harder', you unfairly bias the
question.
I'm not implying malicious intent. But in reviewing the questions that were
selected, those which are absent, and how the questions are asked, it seems
to me that you can't help but get back biased results.
-- David Cuny
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5. Re: Survey - Please Participate
- Posted by Ray Smith <smithr at ix.net.au>
Jan 28, 2001
-
Last edited Jan 29, 2001
NOTE: Question 2's answers should be
DOS
Windows ( I had Euphoria Listed instead of Windows)
Linux
None ...
Thanks Ray Smith.
See original question 2 below:
> 2. What (currently available) Euphoria ports are you likely to use in
> the future?
> DOS
> Euphoria
> Linux
> None (I'm happy using what I use now)
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6. Survey - Please Participate
------=_NextPart_000_00A2_01C08A31.53891FE0
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi David,
> Maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood, but I found a lot of problems with =
this
> survey.
I totally agree that the survey is far from perfect.
Basically I wasn't prepared to put the hours in to produce something =
which
covers the width and the breadth of Euphoria.
I asked on numerious occasions for people to submit questions to me
that can be included in the survey. Out of the 19 or so questions I =
think
2-3 came from others.
> For example, there are several questions that focus on "commercial"
> software, and none on "hobbyist". What is value of knowing if someone =
is a
> 'business' user? Should 'hobbyists' (who paid the same $30 as everyone
else)
> be counted less, or 'commercial' writers more so?
Question 8 asked to list Ports you use to write
commercial/business/shareware/
freeware software with.
Question 9 asked what other features you think you would need to write
"commercial quality" software.
Question 13 asked would you pay for add ons.
So thats one 1 on commercial use, 1 question on creating good
quality software and 1 question about paying for value added products.
> > 6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming related =
area?
> > Yes
> > No
>
> This personal information is relevant because..?
I didn't sit down and determined precisely what the aims of the survey
where.
I had the survey idea when I wrote a "Euphorias Future..." email about a
month ago.
At the time I was frustrated with Euphoria. Everything I tried to do =
seemed
almost
impossible. So I thought to myself ... who else is using Euphoria, what =
do
they
do with it, and maybe what else would they like to do with it.
I guess that's where this queston came from.
It probably doesn't have any relivance except entertainment value.
> > 8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
> > environment?
>
> Why is the use in a 'commercial' environment relevant?
1. I beleive Euphoria is pretty limiting in "some" areas for a so called
"general purpose programming language". I was interested if many
people had the skill and tools to develop software in Euphoria which
was of commercial use.
2. Alot of open source software these days are getting commercial
sponsership.
One path for Euphoria to head is for commercial companies to sponser the
furthur development of Euphoria (I don't know how).
If no one is using Euphoria commercially then this will be difficult.
3. If no one is using Euphoria commercially ... my next question is ... =
why
not?
and what would be needed for it to be used commercially.
4. I also mentioned shareware/freeware counted. I think this broadens =
the
horizon.
> > 9. List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which
> > would allow you to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)
>
> Again, a focus on 'commercial'.
Not really ... it focuses on good quality software ... which I phrased =
as
"commercial quality".
> > 10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
>
> This is relevant because..?
In retrospect this is basically the same as question 8.
I was trying to focus on, how many people create something that is
good enough for others to see.
> > 14. For you personally, how beneficial is the
> > "Namespace" enhancement that has been suggested
> > is the next major enhancement for Euphoria?
>
> It's already been agreed that (1) this is important, and (2) this is =
the
> next thing on Robert's list.
I sent a message to the list about a month ago asking where the 272 =
people
are?
In most discussions on the list probably less than 20 people actively
participate.
Maybe if 100 people responded and said namespaces aren't their top =
priority
then
maybe Rob should re-consider. I asked the same question of the =
Translator.
If 90% of people said they weren't really interested in it, then it was =
a
waste of time.
I was giving everyone the chance to vote on how the last and next =
enhacement
to Euphoria effects them.
>The only reason I can possibly see for putting
> this question in a 'survey' is because one or more of the authors have
their
> pet projects done first.
Or maybe everyone else you resonds can vote on their preference.
I doubt this will have any effect on Robs decision anyway but I was
interested in
how many people did think it was the best for "them".
I'm not going to particpate in the survey for the "biased" reasons.
For some reason you have this idea I have something to gain ... or am =
trying
to persude everyone into some master plan I have.
I'm sorry that's how you think and all I can say is I was trying to let
everyone
have their say.
> > 16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last
> subscript?
> > 17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences be?
>
> It would be one thing to include a fairly long list of wish list items =
and
> as people to rank them, or select their top three. But by focusing on
these
> two particular items, I again feel like the author(s) is trying to use =
it
to
> further their own personal agenda.
I asked for input into the survey and added questions that people wanted
included. Personally I have little use for these two features.
I was hoping I'd have dozens of questions contributed by many people and =
I'd
be busy categorizing them. As it turns out, 2 people responded with
questions
I basically already had and 1 person responded with the above two =
questions.
> > 18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
> > (By "format" I mean 1 list with everything related to Euphoria.
>
> This question isn't clear. As opposed to having a DOS32/Win32/Linux =
list?
If a large % of people say Yes, then there is no need to worry about =
asking
any more questions.
> > 19. From a new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria
> > have been to install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?
> > Much easier
> > A little easier
> > No difference
>
> There are compelling reasons why Robert isn't using a 'modern' =
installer:
>
> 1. Smaller download
> 2. Cross-platform
> 3. Simplicity
> 4. Windows not required.
>
> By not including 'A little harder' and 'Much harder', you unfairly =
bias
the
> question.
>
I guess you could argue that. At the time I thought ... it couldn't
possibly
make it more difficult. How could a nice installer and IDE make using
Euphoria more difficult?
Maybe I should have mentioned ... if there was an enhanced windows =
version
the current DOS and Linux versions would remain.
Smaller download ... the typical installer adds less than 100K to a
distribution.
Cross Platform ... as I just said ... it would be focused on a Windows =
base.
the
other distributions could stay as is. I also should have mentioned =
RPM's
for
Linux.
Simplicity ... I assume you mean simplicity for RDS ... how could the
current
distribution be simplier than a Windows installer?
I "think" most people want to use Euphoria in Windows. (the survey will
prove or disprove this). If most people use it for windows a nice =
Installer
will ease the first few hours of a newbie using Euphoria. Hopefully =
keeping
their interest for long enough so they feel comfortable and continue =
using
it.
I tried to think of how to ask the question to fit the High, Medium, Low
answers
of the other question but at the time of writing couldn't make it fit.
I know how to use an editor and run Euphoria programs. I would get no
benefit from this and had no intention to bias the question by available
answers.
> I'm not implying malicious intent. But in reviewing the questions that
were
> selected, those which are absent, and how the questions are asked, it
seems
> to me that you can't help but get back biased results.
I was worried about biased results and did remove a few questions in =
certain
areas that I was interested in. I included all questions submitted to =
me
which
is why there are a couple of detailed questions.
There was no "malicious" intent.
I beleive you where a little harsh in some of your comments.
Except for the couple of technical questions about slicing and indexing
almost all the other questions were in an email I sent about a week ago
asking for
input. From that email I think I received less than 3 comments.
Any comments you could gave then would have been much more appreciated =
than
your inferred comments of me attempting to bias results for personal =
gain
now.
I am a little dissapointed you inferred some of the things you did on =
the mailing list.
Ray Smith
____________________________________________________________
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi David,<BR><BR><BR>> Maybe I'm =
just in a=20
grumpy mood, but I found a lot of problems with this<BR>> =
survey.<BR><BR>I=20
totally agree that the survey is far from perfect.<BR>Basically I wasn't =
prepared to put the hours in to produce something which<BR>covers the =
width and=20
the breadth of Euphoria.<BR>I asked on numerious occasions for people to =
submit=20
questions to me<BR>that can be included in the survey. Out of the =
19 or so=20
questions I think<BR>2-3 came from others.<BR><BR>> For example, =
there are=20
several questions that focus on "commercial"<BR>> software, and none =
on=20
"hobbyist". What is value of knowing if someone is a<BR>> 'business' =
user?=20
Should 'hobbyists' (who paid the same $30 as everyone<BR>else)<BR>> =
be=20
counted less, or 'commercial' writers more so?<BR><BR>Question 8 asked =
to list=20
Ports you use to write<BR>commercial/business/shareware/<BR>freeware =
software=20
with.<BR>Question 9 asked what other features you think you would need =
to=20
write<BR>"commercial quality" software.<BR>Question 13 asked would you =
pay for=20
add ons.<BR><BR>So thats one 1 on commercial use, 1 question on creating =
good<BR>quality software and 1 question about paying for value added=20
products.<BR><BR><BR>> > 6. Do you currently work/study in a =
computer=20
programming related area?<BR>> > Yes<BR>> > =
No<BR>><BR>> This=20
personal information is relevant because..?<BR><BR>I didn't sit down and =
determined precisely what the aims of the survey<BR>where.<BR>I had the =
survey=20
idea when I wrote a "Euphorias Future..." email about a<BR>month =
ago.<BR>At the=20
time I was frustrated with Euphoria. Everything I tried to do=20
seemed<BR>almost<BR>impossible. So I thought to myself ... who =
else is=20
using Euphoria, what do<BR>they<BR>do with it, and maybe what else would =
they=20
like to do with it.<BR><BR>I guess that's where this queston came =
from.<BR>It=20
probably doesn't have any relivance except entertainment =
value.<BR><BR><BR>>=20
> 8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a =
business/commercial<BR>> >=20
environment?<BR>><BR>> Why is the use in a 'commercial' =
environment=20
relevant?<BR><BR>1. I beleive Euphoria is pretty limiting in "some" =
areas for a=20
so called<BR>"general purpose programming language". I was interested if =
many<BR>people had the skill and tools to develop software in Euphoria=20
which<BR>was of commercial use.<BR><BR>2. Alot of open source software =
these=20
days are getting commercial<BR>sponsership.<BR>One path for Euphoria to =
head is=20
for commercial companies to sponser the<BR>furthur development of =
Euphoria (I=20
don't know how).<BR>If no one is using Euphoria commercially then this =
will be=20
difficult.<BR><BR>3. If no one is using Euphoria commercially ... my =
next=20
question is ... why<BR>not?<BR>and what would be needed for it to be =
used=20
commercially.<BR><BR>4. I also mentioned shareware/freeware =
counted. =20
I think this broadens the<BR>horizon.<BR><BR>> > 9. List=20
features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which<BR>> > =
would=20
allow you to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)<BR>><BR>> =
Again,=20
a focus on 'commercial'.<BR><BR>Not really ... it focuses on good =
quality=20
software ... which I phrased as<BR>"commercial =
quality".<BR><BR>> >=20
10. Do you currently distribute software to other =
people?<BR>><BR>> This=20
is relevant because..?<BR><BR>In retrospect this is basically the same =
as=20
question 8.<BR>I was trying to focus on, how many people create =
something that=20
is<BR>good enough for others to see.<BR><BR><BR>> > 14. For you=20
personally, how beneficial is the<BR>> > "Namespace" enhancement =
that has=20
been suggested<BR>> > is the next major enhancement for=20
Euphoria?<BR>><BR>> It's already been agreed that (1) this is =
important,=20
and (2) this is the<BR>> next thing on Robert's list.<BR><BR>I sent a =
message=20
to the list about a month ago asking where the 272 people<BR>are?<BR>In =
most=20
discussions on the list probably less than 20 people=20
actively<BR>participate.<BR>Maybe if 100 people responded and said =
namespaces=20
aren't their top priority<BR>then<BR>maybe Rob should re-consider. =
I asked=20
the same question of the Translator.<BR>If 90% of people said they =
weren't=20
really interested in it, then it was a<BR>waste of time.<BR>I was giving =
everyone the chance to vote on how the last and next enhacement<BR>to =
Euphoria=20
effects them.<BR><BR>>The only reason I can possibly see for =
putting<BR>>=20
this question in a 'survey' is because one or more of the authors=20
have<BR>their<BR>> pet projects done first.<BR>Or maybe everyone else =
you=20
resonds can vote on their preference.<BR>I doubt this will have any =
effect on=20
Robs decision anyway but I was<BR>interested in<BR>how many people did =
think it=20
was the best for "them".<BR>I'm not going to particpate in the survey =
for the=20
"biased" reasons.<BR><BR>For some reason you have this idea I have =
something to=20
gain ... or am trying<BR>to persude everyone into some master plan I=20
have.<BR>I'm sorry that's how you think and all I can say is I was =
trying=20
to let<BR>everyone<BR>have their say.<BR><BR><BR>> > 16. How =
beneficial=20
would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last<BR>> subscript?<BR>> =
>=20
17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences=20
be?<BR>><BR>> It would be one thing to include a fairly long list =
of wish=20
list items and<BR>> as people to rank them, or select their top =
three. But by=20
focusing on<BR>these<BR>> two particular items, I again feel like the =
author(s) is trying to use it<BR>to<BR>> further their own personal=20
agenda.<BR><BR>I asked for input into the survey and added questions =
that people=20
wanted<BR>included. Personally I have little use for these two=20
features.<BR>I was hoping I'd have dozens of questions contributed by =
many=20
people and I'd<BR>be busy categorizing them. As it turns out, 2 people =
responded=20
with<BR>questions<BR>I basically already had and 1 person responded with =
the=20
above two questions.<BR><BR>> > 18. Are you happy with the current =
List=20
Server "format"?<BR>> > (By "format" I mean 1 list with everything =
related=20
to Euphoria.<BR>><BR>> This question isn't clear. As opposed to =
having a=20
DOS32/Win32/Linux list?<BR><BR>If a large % of people say Yes, then =
there is no=20
need to worry about asking<BR>any more questions.<BR><BR>> > 19. =
>From a=20
new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria<BR>> > have =
been to=20
install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?<BR>> > Much=20
easier<BR>> > A little easier<BR>> > No =
difference<BR>><BR>>=20
There are compelling reasons why Robert isn't using a 'modern'=20
installer:<BR>><BR>> 1. Smaller=20
download<BR>> 2. =
Cross-platform<BR>> =20
3. Simplicity<BR>> 4. Windows not =
required.<BR>><BR>>=20
By not including 'A little harder' and 'Much harder', you unfairly=20
bias<BR>the<BR>> question.<BR>><BR><BR>I guess you could argue =
that. =20
At the time I thought ... it couldn't<BR>possibly<BR>make it more =
difficult. How=20
could a nice installer and IDE make using<BR>Euphoria more=20
difficult?<BR><BR>Maybe I should have mentioned ... if there was an =
enhanced=20
windows version<BR>the current DOS and Linux versions would=20
remain.<BR><BR>Smaller download ... the typical installer adds less than =
100K to=20
a<BR>distribution.<BR>Cross Platform ... as I just said ... it would be =
focused=20
on a Windows base.<BR>the<BR>other distributions could stay as is. =
I also=20
should have mentioned RPM's<BR>for<BR>Linux.<BR>Simplicity ... I assume =
you mean=20
simplicity for RDS ... how could the<BR>current<BR>distribution be =
simplier than=20
a Windows installer?<BR><BR>I "think" most people want to use Euphoria =
in=20
Windows. (the survey will<BR>prove or disprove this). If =
most people=20
use it for windows a nice Installer<BR>will ease the first few hours of =
a newbie=20
using Euphoria. Hopefully keeping<BR>their interest for long =
enough so=20
they feel comfortable and continue using<BR>it.<BR><BR>I tried to think =
of how=20
to ask the question to fit the High, Medium, Low<BR>answers<BR>of the =
other=20
question but at the time of writing couldn't make it fit.<BR>I know how =
to use=20
an editor and run Euphoria programs. I would get no<BR>benefit from this =
and had=20
no intention to bias the question by available<BR>answers.<BR><BR>> =
I'm not=20
implying malicious intent. But in reviewing the questions =
that<BR>were<BR>>=20
selected, those which are absent, and how the questions are asked,=20
it<BR>seems<BR>> to me that you can't help but get back biased=20
results.<BR><BR>I was worried about biased results and did remove a few=20
questions in certain<BR>areas that I was interested in. I included =
all=20
questions submitted to me<BR>which<BR>is why there are a couple of =
detailed=20
questions.<BR>There was no "malicious" intent.<BR><BR>I beleive you =
where a=20
little harsh in some of your comments.<BR>Except for the couple of =
technical=20
questions about slicing and indexing<BR>almost all the other questions =
were in=20
an email I sent about a week ago<BR>asking for<BR>input. From that =
email I=20
think I received less than 3 comments.<BR>Any comments you could gave =
then would=20
have been much more appreciated than<BR>your inferred comments of me =
attempting=20
to bias results for personal gain<BR>now.<BR><FONT size=3D2>I am a =
little=20
dissapointed you inferred some of the things you did on the mailing=20
list.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Ray=20
T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
<A
HREF=3D"http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01">http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01</A></PRE>
------=_NextPart_000_00A2_01C08A31.53891FE0--
7. Re: Survey - Please Participate
Ray Smith wrote:
> I believe you where a little harsh in some of
> your comments.
Yes, they are. As I said, I'm in a grumpy mood, and it's 4:30 in the
morning... It's raining and the house is drafty... That doesn't make it
right, of course.
> Any comments you could gave then would
> have been much more appreciated than
> your inferred comments of me attempting
> to bias results for personal gain now.
Yes, I shouldn't have been so quick with that delete key. It's always easier
to complain after the fact.
> For some reason you have this idea I have
> something to gain ... or am trying to persude
> everyone into some master plan I have.
No, my mistake. I didn't mean to say that, but sometimes words don't say
what I thought they did. At least, parts of my prior e-mail don't hold up to
re-reading.
For an example of unbiased questions, look at 1-4 and 7. They ask for
information, without using language that would elicit an emotional reaction:
> 1. What platform(s) do you currently use Euphoria on?
> 2. What (currently available) Euphoria ports are you
likely to use in the future?
> 3. What other platforms would you like Euphoria to support?
> 4. How beneficial (to you) is the fact that Euphoria is
> Cross Platform?
> 7. What types of programs do you currently write/or intend
> to write with Euphoria (as it is now with the currently
> available functionality)?
A number of questions really don't have much bearing on anything, other than
8 and 10 focusing on the 'commercial' use of Euphoria:
> 5. Is Euphoria your preferred development language?
> 6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming
> related area?
> 8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
> environment?
> 10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
> 11. How long have you been using Euphoria?
> 12. If you didn't use Euphoria what other language would you use?
Past this point, the survey unintentionally uses colored, emotional language
to steer the reader into *feeling* a particular way about something. I've
put brackets around those "emotive" bits:
> 9. List features/libraries you would like to see for
> Euphoria [which would allow you to create commercial
> quality software]?
First, you've implied that the current features and libraries don't allow
for the creation of commercial quality software - something that you've
verified to be how you actually feel.
Next, you tell the respondant to you are only interested in seeing features
that allow the creation of commercial quality software - don't bother
submitting any other ideas.
Not that you mean to do this intentionally. But compare it to the more
neutral version:
List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria?
> 14. [For you personally,] how beneficial is the
> "Namespace" enhancement [that has been suggested
> is the next major enhancement for Euphoria]?
> 15. How beneficial is/will the Euphoria Translator
> [be for you]?
OK, maybe I'm just delusional. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here,
although I'd still prefer something non-leading, like:
What is the most important thing for Robert
to work on next? _________________________
> 16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT
> the last subscript?
> 17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence
> with sequences be?
On re-reading, I see my response missed the mark entirely:
>> I again feel like the author(s) is trying to use
>> it to further their own personal agenda.
It looks like a personal slam, it quacks like a personal slam... but it
wasn't meant to be, sorry!
By "feel", I meant that unsettling feeling you get when a magician asks you
to take a card from the deck, and you *know* he's forced you to take a card,
but you're not sure how. But I still didn't mean to say that it was
intentional on the your part. Compare the questions to a more neutral
version, and maybe it will make sense:
What feature would be most beneficial to add to Euphoria?
And yes, I noticed the writing style change at this point - I didn't think
that was your question!
> 19. From a new user perspective how much easier would
> Euphoria have been to install/learn with a "modern"
> installer and IDE?
>
> Much easier
> A little easier
> No difference
Where to begin with this one?
First of all, you use the word "modern", which implies the current installer
and IDE in *not* modern. You also imply that Euphoria would be easier to
install and use. Finally, you don't even give the respondant the option of
disagreeing with you: at best, they can only choose a neutral 'no
difference'.
Questions 13 and 18 are also problematic because you can't really much with
the information you gather:
> 13. Would you be willing to pay for [quality
> products/]add-ons?
This is a leading question - of course people are going to pay for "quality
products". But let's say that 90% of the people respond 'yes' - what have
you learned? You don't know what kind of add-ons they want, or how much they
might pay for them, only that there's some sort of vague demand out there.
> 18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
Even if you switched to a more neutral:
How well is the current List Server format working?
you still can't do much other than report that people are reporting that
some unknown feature of the List Server isn't working that well.
As you've said, if I don't like the questions, I only have myself to blame
for not responding when you sent it out for review.
So sleepy... must rest... before making a total ass of myself...
Doh! Too late...
-- David Cuny
____________________________________________________________
T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
8. Re: Survey - Please Participate
Hi,
It's seems like to much effort to respond to everything you wrote.
I agree with what you say about some of the questions are worded
poorly. As you thought ... it wasn't intentional and if I ever did anything
like this again I would try harder at being more neutral.
Except for maybe 1 question I believe the results of all other questions
will be meaningful in one way or another.
ie. To do with "Would you pay money for quality Add-ons?" and
"Are you happy with the current mailing list?" ... you basically say
the results of these questions have no value. All I can say is I disagree.
I do agree that a few more questions could have been asked to further
determine a deeper understanding but "I" thought since it wasn't going
to be an indepth survey that I would keep it simple.
For some reason I seem to have struck a nerve with you. For me ...
it was just a harmless poll to gauge what people use ... and how people
perceive a few Euphoria issues. I never had any ideas that it would
change RDS's or anyone else's perceptions or directions.
So far the response has been great, I think somewhere around 20 people
have replied which I believe keeps the door open for future surveys
(run by someone else ... anyone hint hint!) with much more detail
and hopefully more neutral questions.
Ray Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
To: <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: Survey - Please Participate
> Ray Smith wrote:
>
> > I believe you where a little harsh in some of
> > your comments.
>
> Yes, they are. As I said, I'm in a grumpy mood, and it's 4:30 in the
> morning... It's raining and the house is drafty... That doesn't make it
> right, of course.
>
>
> > Any comments you could gave then would
> > have been much more appreciated than
> > your inferred comments of me attempting
> > to bias results for personal gain now.
>
> Yes, I shouldn't have been so quick with that delete key. It's always
easier
> to complain after the fact.
>
>
> > For some reason you have this idea I have
> > something to gain ... or am trying to persude
> > everyone into some master plan I have.
>
> No, my mistake. I didn't mean to say that, but sometimes words don't say
> what I thought they did. At least, parts of my prior e-mail don't hold up
to
> re-reading.
>
>
> For an example of unbiased questions, look at 1-4 and 7. They ask for
> information, without using language that would elicit an emotional
reaction:
>
> > 1. What platform(s) do you currently use Euphoria on?
> > 2. What (currently available) Euphoria ports are you
> likely to use in the future?
> > 3. What other platforms would you like Euphoria to support?
> > 4. How beneficial (to you) is the fact that Euphoria is
> > Cross Platform?
> > 7. What types of programs do you currently write/or intend
> > to write with Euphoria (as it is now with the currently
> > available functionality)?
>
>
> A number of questions really don't have much bearing on anything, other
than
> 8 and 10 focusing on the 'commercial' use of Euphoria:
>
> > 5. Is Euphoria your preferred development language?
> > 6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming
> > related area?
> > 8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
> > environment?
> > 10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
> > 11. How long have you been using Euphoria?
> > 12. If you didn't use Euphoria what other language would you use?
>
>
> Past this point, the survey unintentionally uses colored, emotional
language
> to steer the reader into *feeling* a particular way about something. I've
> put brackets around those "emotive" bits:
>
> > 9. List features/libraries you would like to see for
> > Euphoria [which would allow you to create commercial
> > quality software]?
>
> First, you've implied that the current features and libraries don't allow
> for the creation of commercial quality software - something that you've
> verified to be how you actually feel.
>
> Next, you tell the respondant to you are only interested in seeing
features
> that allow the creation of commercial quality software - don't bother
> submitting any other ideas.
>
> Not that you mean to do this intentionally. But compare it to the more
> neutral version:
>
> List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria?
>
>
>
> > 14. [For you personally,] how beneficial is the
> > "Namespace" enhancement [that has been suggested
> > is the next major enhancement for Euphoria]?
>
> > 15. How beneficial is/will the Euphoria Translator
> > [be for you]?
>
> OK, maybe I'm just delusional. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt
here,
> although I'd still prefer something non-leading, like:
>
> What is the most important thing for Robert
> to work on next? _________________________
>
>
> > 16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT
> > the last subscript?
>
> > 17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence
> > with sequences be?
>
> On re-reading, I see my response missed the mark entirely:
>
> >> I again feel like the author(s) is trying to use
> >> it to further their own personal agenda.
>
> It looks like a personal slam, it quacks like a personal slam... but it
> wasn't meant to be, sorry!
>
> By "feel", I meant that unsettling feeling you get when a magician asks
you
> to take a card from the deck, and you *know* he's forced you to take a
card,
> but you're not sure how. But I still didn't mean to say that it was
> intentional on the your part. Compare the questions to a more neutral
> version, and maybe it will make sense:
>
> What feature would be most beneficial to add to Euphoria?
>
> And yes, I noticed the writing style change at this point - I didn't think
> that was your question!
>
>
> > 19. From a new user perspective how much easier would
> > Euphoria have been to install/learn with a "modern"
> > installer and IDE?
> >
> > Much easier
> > A little easier
> > No difference
>
> Where to begin with this one?
>
> First of all, you use the word "modern", which implies the current
installer
> and IDE in *not* modern. You also imply that Euphoria would be easier to
> install and use. Finally, you don't even give the respondant the option of
> disagreeing with you: at best, they can only choose a neutral 'no
> difference'.
>
>
> Questions 13 and 18 are also problematic because you can't really much
with
> the information you gather:
>
> > 13. Would you be willing to pay for [quality
> > products/]add-ons?
>
> This is a leading question - of course people are going to pay for
"quality
> products". But let's say that 90% of the people respond 'yes' - what have
> you learned? You don't know what kind of add-ons they want, or how much
they
> might pay for them, only that there's some sort of vague demand out there.
>
>
> > 18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
>
> Even if you switched to a more neutral:
>
> How well is the current List Server format working?
>
> you still can't do much other than report that people are reporting that
> some unknown feature of the List Server isn't working that well.
>
>
> As you've said, if I don't like the questions, I only have myself to blame
> for not responding when you sent it out for review.
>
> So sleepy... must rest... before making a total ass of myself...
>
> Doh! Too late...
>
> -- David Cuny
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
> Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
> http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
____________________________________________________________
T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
9. Re: Survey - Please Participate
Ray Smith wrote:
> It's seems like to much effort to
> respond to everything you wrote.
I agree.
> For some reason I seem to have
> struck a nerve with you.
I'm sure you've encountered this phenomena before - someone takes as single
class on a subject, and acts like they're an expert or something. Again, I
apologize if this seemed like a personal attack.
> So far the response has been great, I
> think somewhere around 20 people have
> replied ...
Great!
> which I believe keeps the door open for
> future surveys (run by someone else ...
> anyone hint hint!)
And put up with being flamed by people like me? 
> with much more detail and hopefully more
> neutral questions.
Thanks!
-- David Cuny
____________________________________________________________
T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
10. Re: Survey - Please Participate
- Posted by lpcd at CYBER.NET.PK
Mar 06, 2001
1. What platform(s) do you currently use Euphoria on?
a. DOS32 X
b. Windows X
c. Linux
2. What (currently available) Euphoria ports are you likely to use in
the future?
DOS
Euphoria
Linux
None (I'm happy using what I use now) X
3. What other platforms would you like Euphoria to support?
Mac X
BeOS
Solaris
Other: Please Specify - MacOS X
4. How beneficial (to you) is the fact that Euphoria is Cross Platform?
High
Medium X
Low
5. Is Euphoria your preferred development language?
(i.e. your favorite)
Yes
No X
6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming related area?
Yes X
No
7. What types of programs do you currently write/or intend to write with
Euphoria (as it is now with the currently available functionality)?
Games/Entertainment
General Business Applications X
Internet Related X
Data Manipulation X
Educational
Other: please specify
8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
environment?
(Released shareware/freeware software can be included)
DOS32 X
Windows X
Linux
None
9. List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which
would allow you
to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)
Notes:
* Home hobbyists can still write commercial quality software.
* You can add things like a "complete" GUI toolkit or ODBC wrapper since
these currently available libraries are still pre-release
A documentation standard in Euphoria sourcecode and tools to extract it in
RTF, HTML, etc.
10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
Yes X (but not Euphoria apps)
No
If NO - Would you like to distribute programs in the future?
Yes
No
11. How long have you been using Euphoria?
0-3 Months
3-12 Months
1-2 years
2 Years or more X
12. If you didn't use Euphoria what other language would you use?
Visual Basic
Delphi
C++ (MS/Borland/Watcom etc)
Java
Python
Perl
Other: please specify REALbasic
13. Would you be willing to pay for quality products/add-ons?
(e.g. Examples like an IDE/GUI toolkit?)
Yes X
No
14. For you personally, how beneficial is the "Namespace" enhancement
that has been suggested is the next major enhancement for Euphoria?
Notes: My basic understanding is this will allow different Euphoria
include files to use the same variable/routine names without causing
conflicts.
High
Medium
Low X
15. How beneficial is/will the Euphoria Translator be for you?
High
Medium
Low X
16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last
subscript?
Notes:
e.g. ? x [2..5][3]
This would NOT break current code because it is currently
not legal. Example uses would include but not be limited to:
* vertical slicing of a bitmap
* retrieving all values of one field from a sequence of records.
High
Medium
Low X (don't fully understand it)
17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences be?
Notes:
This would allow subscripts to be BUILT programmatically.
Currently if we want to subscript, we have to specify how
far into the sequence we are delving by the number of square
brackets[] we use. This suggested extension would allow you
to subscript a sequence that you don't know the structure to.
This would NOT break current code because it is currently
not legal.
High
medium
Low X (don't fully understand it)
18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
(By "format" I mean 1 list with everything related to Euphoria.
Not the fact we are now using Topica)
Yes X
No
19. From a new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria have been
to install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?
Much easier
A little easier
No difference X
11. Re: Survey - Please Participate
- Posted by RedDan11 at AOL.COM
Mar 06, 2001
1. What platform(s) do you currently use Euphoria on?
a. DOS32 X
b. Windows X
c. Linux
2. What (currently available) Euphoria ports are you likely to use in
the future?
DOS
Euphoria
Linux
None (I'm happy using what I use now) X
3. What other platforms would you like Euphoria to support?
Mac X
BeOS
Solaris
Other: Please Specify - MacOS X
4. How beneficial (to you) is the fact that Euphoria is Cross Platform?
High
Medium
Low X
5. Is Euphoria your preferred development language?
(i.e. your favorite)
Yes X(For now atleast cause I'm 14 and it's real E Z)
No
6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming related area?
Yes
No X(but I do alot of tutorials online and I'm planning on majoring in
computers)
7. What types of programs do you currently write/or intend to write with
Euphoria (as it is now with the currently available functionality)?
Games/Entertainment X
General Business Applications
Internet Related
Data Manipulation
Educational X(I make study programs)
Other: please specify
8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
environment?
(Released shareware/freeware software can be included)
DOS32
Windows
Linux
None X
9. List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which
would allow you
to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)
Notes:
* Home hobbyists can still write commercial quality software.
* You can add things like a "complete" GUI toolkit or ODBC wrapper since
these currently available libraries are still pre-release
Something to make 3d programming and game programming in general more user
friendly.
10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
Yes
No X
If NO - Would you like to distribute programs in the future?
Yes X
No
11. How long have you been using Euphoria?
0-3 Months
3-12 Months X(about 4)
1-2 years
2 Years or more
12. If you didn't use Euphoria what other language would you use?
Visual Basic
Delphi
C++ (MS/Borland/Watcom etc) X
Java X
Python
Perl
Other: please specify REALbasic
13. Would you be willing to pay for quality products/add-ons?
(e.g. Examples like an IDE/GUI toolkit?)
Yes
No X(I really can't afford it!)
14. For you personally, how beneficial is the "Namespace" enhancement
that has been suggested is the next major enhancement for Euphoria?
Notes: My basic understanding is this will allow different Euphoria
include files to use the same variable/routine names without causing
conflicts.
High
Medium
Low X
15. How beneficial is/will the Euphoria Translator be for you?
High
Medium X
Low
16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last
subscript?
Notes:
e.g. ? x [2..5][3]
This would NOT break current code because it is currently
not legal. Example uses would include but not be limited to:
* vertical slicing of a bitmap
* retrieving all values of one field from a sequence of records.
High
Medium
Low X (don't fully understand it)
17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences be?
Notes:
This would allow subscripts to be BUILT programmatically.
Currently if we want to subscript, we have to specify how
far into the sequence we are delving by the number of square
brackets[] we use. This suggested extension would allow you
to subscript a sequence that you don't know the structure to.
This would NOT break current code because it is currently
not legal.
High
medium
Low X (don't fully understand it)
18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
(By "format" I mean 1 list with everything related to Euphoria.
Not the fact we are now using Topica)
Yes X
No
19. From a new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria have been
to install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?
Much easier
A little easier X
No difference X(Inbetween)
-Dan Da Man
