Survey - Please Participate
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Hi David,
> Maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood, but I found a lot of problems with =
this
> survey.
I totally agree that the survey is far from perfect.
Basically I wasn't prepared to put the hours in to produce something =
which
covers the width and the breadth of Euphoria.
I asked on numerious occasions for people to submit questions to me
that can be included in the survey. Out of the 19 or so questions I =
think
2-3 came from others.
> For example, there are several questions that focus on "commercial"
> software, and none on "hobbyist". What is value of knowing if someone =
is a
> 'business' user? Should 'hobbyists' (who paid the same $30 as everyone
else)
> be counted less, or 'commercial' writers more so?
Question 8 asked to list Ports you use to write
commercial/business/shareware/
freeware software with.
Question 9 asked what other features you think you would need to write
"commercial quality" software.
Question 13 asked would you pay for add ons.
So thats one 1 on commercial use, 1 question on creating good
quality software and 1 question about paying for value added products.
> > 6. Do you currently work/study in a computer programming related =
area?
> > Yes
> > No
>
> This personal information is relevant because..?
I didn't sit down and determined precisely what the aims of the survey
where.
I had the survey idea when I wrote a "Euphorias Future..." email about a
month ago.
At the time I was frustrated with Euphoria. Everything I tried to do =
seemed
almost
impossible. So I thought to myself ... who else is using Euphoria, what =
do
they
do with it, and maybe what else would they like to do with it.
I guess that's where this queston came from.
It probably doesn't have any relivance except entertainment value.
> > 8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a business/commercial
> > environment?
>
> Why is the use in a 'commercial' environment relevant?
1. I beleive Euphoria is pretty limiting in "some" areas for a so called
"general purpose programming language". I was interested if many
people had the skill and tools to develop software in Euphoria which
was of commercial use.
2. Alot of open source software these days are getting commercial
sponsership.
One path for Euphoria to head is for commercial companies to sponser the
furthur development of Euphoria (I don't know how).
If no one is using Euphoria commercially then this will be difficult.
3. If no one is using Euphoria commercially ... my next question is ... =
why
not?
and what would be needed for it to be used commercially.
4. I also mentioned shareware/freeware counted. I think this broadens =
the
horizon.
> > 9. List features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which
> > would allow you to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)
>
> Again, a focus on 'commercial'.
Not really ... it focuses on good quality software ... which I phrased =
as
"commercial quality".
> > 10. Do you currently distribute software to other people?
>
> This is relevant because..?
In retrospect this is basically the same as question 8.
I was trying to focus on, how many people create something that is
good enough for others to see.
> > 14. For you personally, how beneficial is the
> > "Namespace" enhancement that has been suggested
> > is the next major enhancement for Euphoria?
>
> It's already been agreed that (1) this is important, and (2) this is =
the
> next thing on Robert's list.
I sent a message to the list about a month ago asking where the 272 =
people
are?
In most discussions on the list probably less than 20 people actively
participate.
Maybe if 100 people responded and said namespaces aren't their top =
priority
then
maybe Rob should re-consider. I asked the same question of the =
Translator.
If 90% of people said they weren't really interested in it, then it was =
a
waste of time.
I was giving everyone the chance to vote on how the last and next =
enhacement
to Euphoria effects them.
>The only reason I can possibly see for putting
> this question in a 'survey' is because one or more of the authors have
their
> pet projects done first.
Or maybe everyone else you resonds can vote on their preference.
I doubt this will have any effect on Robs decision anyway but I was
interested in
how many people did think it was the best for "them".
I'm not going to particpate in the survey for the "biased" reasons.
For some reason you have this idea I have something to gain ... or am =
trying
to persude everyone into some master plan I have.
I'm sorry that's how you think and all I can say is I was trying to let
everyone
have their say.
> > 16. How beneficial would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last
> subscript?
> > 17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences be?
>
> It would be one thing to include a fairly long list of wish list items =
and
> as people to rank them, or select their top three. But by focusing on
these
> two particular items, I again feel like the author(s) is trying to use =
it
to
> further their own personal agenda.
I asked for input into the survey and added questions that people wanted
included. Personally I have little use for these two features.
I was hoping I'd have dozens of questions contributed by many people and =
I'd
be busy categorizing them. As it turns out, 2 people responded with
questions
I basically already had and 1 person responded with the above two =
questions.
> > 18. Are you happy with the current List Server "format"?
> > (By "format" I mean 1 list with everything related to Euphoria.
>
> This question isn't clear. As opposed to having a DOS32/Win32/Linux =
list?
If a large % of people say Yes, then there is no need to worry about =
asking
any more questions.
> > 19. From a new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria
> > have been to install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?
> > Much easier
> > A little easier
> > No difference
>
> There are compelling reasons why Robert isn't using a 'modern' =
installer:
>
> 1. Smaller download
> 2. Cross-platform
> 3. Simplicity
> 4. Windows not required.
>
> By not including 'A little harder' and 'Much harder', you unfairly =
bias
the
> question.
>
I guess you could argue that. At the time I thought ... it couldn't
possibly
make it more difficult. How could a nice installer and IDE make using
Euphoria more difficult?
Maybe I should have mentioned ... if there was an enhanced windows =
version
the current DOS and Linux versions would remain.
Smaller download ... the typical installer adds less than 100K to a
distribution.
Cross Platform ... as I just said ... it would be focused on a Windows =
base.
the
other distributions could stay as is. I also should have mentioned =
RPM's
for
Linux.
Simplicity ... I assume you mean simplicity for RDS ... how could the
current
distribution be simplier than a Windows installer?
I "think" most people want to use Euphoria in Windows. (the survey will
prove or disprove this). If most people use it for windows a nice =
Installer
will ease the first few hours of a newbie using Euphoria. Hopefully =
keeping
their interest for long enough so they feel comfortable and continue =
using
it.
I tried to think of how to ask the question to fit the High, Medium, Low
answers
of the other question but at the time of writing couldn't make it fit.
I know how to use an editor and run Euphoria programs. I would get no
benefit from this and had no intention to bias the question by available
answers.
> I'm not implying malicious intent. But in reviewing the questions that
were
> selected, those which are absent, and how the questions are asked, it
seems
> to me that you can't help but get back biased results.
I was worried about biased results and did remove a few questions in =
certain
areas that I was interested in. I included all questions submitted to =
me
which
is why there are a couple of detailed questions.
There was no "malicious" intent.
I beleive you where a little harsh in some of your comments.
Except for the couple of technical questions about slicing and indexing
almost all the other questions were in an email I sent about a week ago
asking for
input. From that email I think I received less than 3 comments.
Any comments you could gave then would have been much more appreciated =
than
your inferred comments of me attempting to bias results for personal =
gain
now.
I am a little dissapointed you inferred some of the things you did on =
the mailing list.
Ray Smith
____________________________________________________________
T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi David,<BR><BR><BR>> Maybe I'm =
just in a=20
grumpy mood, but I found a lot of problems with this<BR>> =
survey.<BR><BR>I=20
totally agree that the survey is far from perfect.<BR>Basically I wasn't =
prepared to put the hours in to produce something which<BR>covers the =
width and=20
the breadth of Euphoria.<BR>I asked on numerious occasions for people to =
submit=20
questions to me<BR>that can be included in the survey. Out of the =
19 or so=20
questions I think<BR>2-3 came from others.<BR><BR>> For example, =
there are=20
several questions that focus on "commercial"<BR>> software, and none =
on=20
"hobbyist". What is value of knowing if someone is a<BR>> 'business' =
user?=20
Should 'hobbyists' (who paid the same $30 as everyone<BR>else)<BR>> =
be=20
counted less, or 'commercial' writers more so?<BR><BR>Question 8 asked =
to list=20
Ports you use to write<BR>commercial/business/shareware/<BR>freeware =
software=20
with.<BR>Question 9 asked what other features you think you would need =
to=20
write<BR>"commercial quality" software.<BR>Question 13 asked would you =
pay for=20
add ons.<BR><BR>So thats one 1 on commercial use, 1 question on creating =
good<BR>quality software and 1 question about paying for value added=20
products.<BR><BR><BR>> > 6. Do you currently work/study in a =
computer=20
programming related area?<BR>> > Yes<BR>> > =
No<BR>><BR>> This=20
personal information is relevant because..?<BR><BR>I didn't sit down and =
determined precisely what the aims of the survey<BR>where.<BR>I had the =
survey=20
idea when I wrote a "Euphorias Future..." email about a<BR>month =
ago.<BR>At the=20
time I was frustrated with Euphoria. Everything I tried to do=20
seemed<BR>almost<BR>impossible. So I thought to myself ... who =
else is=20
using Euphoria, what do<BR>they<BR>do with it, and maybe what else would =
they=20
like to do with it.<BR><BR>I guess that's where this queston came =
from.<BR>It=20
probably doesn't have any relivance except entertainment =
value.<BR><BR><BR>>=20
> 8. Which Euphoria port(s) do you use in a =
business/commercial<BR>> >=20
environment?<BR>><BR>> Why is the use in a 'commercial' =
environment=20
relevant?<BR><BR>1. I beleive Euphoria is pretty limiting in "some" =
areas for a=20
so called<BR>"general purpose programming language". I was interested if =
many<BR>people had the skill and tools to develop software in Euphoria=20
which<BR>was of commercial use.<BR><BR>2. Alot of open source software =
these=20
days are getting commercial<BR>sponsership.<BR>One path for Euphoria to =
head is=20
for commercial companies to sponser the<BR>furthur development of =
Euphoria (I=20
don't know how).<BR>If no one is using Euphoria commercially then this =
will be=20
difficult.<BR><BR>3. If no one is using Euphoria commercially ... my =
next=20
question is ... why<BR>not?<BR>and what would be needed for it to be =
used=20
commercially.<BR><BR>4. I also mentioned shareware/freeware =
counted. =20
I think this broadens the<BR>horizon.<BR><BR>> > 9. List=20
features/libraries you would like to see for Euphoria which<BR>> > =
would=20
allow you to create commercial quality software? (Max 5)<BR>><BR>> =
Again,=20
a focus on 'commercial'.<BR><BR>Not really ... it focuses on good =
quality=20
software ... which I phrased as<BR>"commercial =
quality".<BR><BR>> >=20
10. Do you currently distribute software to other =
people?<BR>><BR>> This=20
is relevant because..?<BR><BR>In retrospect this is basically the same =
as=20
question 8.<BR>I was trying to focus on, how many people create =
something that=20
is<BR>good enough for others to see.<BR><BR><BR>> > 14. For you=20
personally, how beneficial is the<BR>> > "Namespace" enhancement =
that has=20
been suggested<BR>> > is the next major enhancement for=20
Euphoria?<BR>><BR>> It's already been agreed that (1) this is =
important,=20
and (2) this is the<BR>> next thing on Robert's list.<BR><BR>I sent a =
message=20
to the list about a month ago asking where the 272 people<BR>are?<BR>In =
most=20
discussions on the list probably less than 20 people=20
actively<BR>participate.<BR>Maybe if 100 people responded and said =
namespaces=20
aren't their top priority<BR>then<BR>maybe Rob should re-consider. =
I asked=20
the same question of the Translator.<BR>If 90% of people said they =
weren't=20
really interested in it, then it was a<BR>waste of time.<BR>I was giving =
everyone the chance to vote on how the last and next enhacement<BR>to =
Euphoria=20
effects them.<BR><BR>>The only reason I can possibly see for =
putting<BR>>=20
this question in a 'survey' is because one or more of the authors=20
have<BR>their<BR>> pet projects done first.<BR>Or maybe everyone else =
you=20
resonds can vote on their preference.<BR>I doubt this will have any =
effect on=20
Robs decision anyway but I was<BR>interested in<BR>how many people did =
think it=20
was the best for "them".<BR>I'm not going to particpate in the survey =
for the=20
"biased" reasons.<BR><BR>For some reason you have this idea I have =
something to=20
gain ... or am trying<BR>to persude everyone into some master plan I=20
have.<BR>I'm sorry that's how you think and all I can say is I was =
trying=20
to let<BR>everyone<BR>have their say.<BR><BR><BR>> > 16. How =
beneficial=20
would slicing sequences that ARE NOT the last<BR>> subscript?<BR>> =
>=20
17. How beneficial would subscripting sequence with sequences=20
be?<BR>><BR>> It would be one thing to include a fairly long list =
of wish=20
list items and<BR>> as people to rank them, or select their top =
three. But by=20
focusing on<BR>these<BR>> two particular items, I again feel like the =
author(s) is trying to use it<BR>to<BR>> further their own personal=20
agenda.<BR><BR>I asked for input into the survey and added questions =
that people=20
wanted<BR>included. Personally I have little use for these two=20
features.<BR>I was hoping I'd have dozens of questions contributed by =
many=20
people and I'd<BR>be busy categorizing them. As it turns out, 2 people =
responded=20
with<BR>questions<BR>I basically already had and 1 person responded with =
the=20
above two questions.<BR><BR>> > 18. Are you happy with the current =
List=20
Server "format"?<BR>> > (By "format" I mean 1 list with everything =
related=20
to Euphoria.<BR>><BR>> This question isn't clear. As opposed to =
having a=20
DOS32/Win32/Linux list?<BR><BR>If a large % of people say Yes, then =
there is no=20
need to worry about asking<BR>any more questions.<BR><BR>> > 19. =
>From a=20
new user perspective how much easier would Euphoria<BR>> > have =
been to=20
install/learn with a "modern" installer and IDE?<BR>> > Much=20
easier<BR>> > A little easier<BR>> > No =
difference<BR>><BR>>=20
There are compelling reasons why Robert isn't using a 'modern'=20
installer:<BR>><BR>> 1. Smaller=20
download<BR>> 2. =
Cross-platform<BR>> =20
3. Simplicity<BR>> 4. Windows not =
required.<BR>><BR>>=20
By not including 'A little harder' and 'Much harder', you unfairly=20
bias<BR>the<BR>> question.<BR>><BR><BR>I guess you could argue =
that. =20
At the time I thought ... it couldn't<BR>possibly<BR>make it more =
difficult. How=20
could a nice installer and IDE make using<BR>Euphoria more=20
difficult?<BR><BR>Maybe I should have mentioned ... if there was an =
enhanced=20
windows version<BR>the current DOS and Linux versions would=20
remain.<BR><BR>Smaller download ... the typical installer adds less than =
100K to=20
a<BR>distribution.<BR>Cross Platform ... as I just said ... it would be =
focused=20
on a Windows base.<BR>the<BR>other distributions could stay as is. =
I also=20
should have mentioned RPM's<BR>for<BR>Linux.<BR>Simplicity ... I assume =
you mean=20
simplicity for RDS ... how could the<BR>current<BR>distribution be =
simplier than=20
a Windows installer?<BR><BR>I "think" most people want to use Euphoria =
in=20
Windows. (the survey will<BR>prove or disprove this). If =
most people=20
use it for windows a nice Installer<BR>will ease the first few hours of =
a newbie=20
using Euphoria. Hopefully keeping<BR>their interest for long =
enough so=20
they feel comfortable and continue using<BR>it.<BR><BR>I tried to think =
of how=20
to ask the question to fit the High, Medium, Low<BR>answers<BR>of the =
other=20
question but at the time of writing couldn't make it fit.<BR>I know how =
to use=20
an editor and run Euphoria programs. I would get no<BR>benefit from this =
and had=20
no intention to bias the question by available<BR>answers.<BR><BR>> =
I'm not=20
implying malicious intent. But in reviewing the questions =
that<BR>were<BR>>=20
selected, those which are absent, and how the questions are asked,=20
it<BR>seems<BR>> to me that you can't help but get back biased=20
results.<BR><BR>I was worried about biased results and did remove a few=20
questions in certain<BR>areas that I was interested in. I included =
all=20
questions submitted to me<BR>which<BR>is why there are a couple of =
detailed=20
questions.<BR>There was no "malicious" intent.<BR><BR>I beleive you =
where a=20
little harsh in some of your comments.<BR>Except for the couple of =
technical=20
questions about slicing and indexing<BR>almost all the other questions =
were in=20
an email I sent about a week ago<BR>asking for<BR>input. From that =
email I=20
think I received less than 3 comments.<BR>Any comments you could gave =
then would=20
have been much more appreciated than<BR>your inferred comments of me =
attempting=20
to bias results for personal gain<BR>now.<BR><FONT size=3D2>I am a =
little=20
dissapointed you inferred some of the things you did on the mailing=20
list.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Ray=20
T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less.
Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose.
<A
HREF=3D"http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01">http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01</A></PRE>
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