1. Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
- Posted by Hawke <mdeland at NWINFO.NET>
Aug 03, 1998
-
Last edited Aug 04, 1998
betcha think I cannae combine all those topics into one email--eh? :)
here goes...;)
according to a report I read recently, re: language generations,
it goes something like this, with my personal embellishment:
1st generation is machine language, the almighty begetting
ones and zeroes, with all coders saying it is good,
then 2nd generation is assembly language, the almighty
begetting jmp and mov, with all coders saying it must be
dancing and that is good, and so thus it follows that
3rd generation is functional language, the almighty
begetting for () and () while, with all coders saying
it must be bottoms up and tops down, and that is good.
Along came the anointed Gates, and he beget 4th generation
upon us laying visual hands to our tired languages, GUI
to our do's, and all coders said I found a bug, and
that is good. :)
Without our knowledge, Prograph was created, and for those
of you that haven't heard of it yet, and yes, I know this
rapidly goes off topic, potentially injures Rob's feelings,
and all that.... patience, bear with me...
anyway, Prograph is the first I know of that accomplishes
what 4th generation (visual X or OOP based languages
are mostly considered 3rd or 4th generation) can only dream
of... there is -no- code..... again... no code...
it is pure diagrammatically based coding... akin to drawing
a flowchart (which *can* be parallel data flowing idioms)
and well...executing directly... yeah, blew me flat out
my chair practically... finally a language that allows
true creativity, object reuse, inherent parallelism, and
has zero syntax errors (if you can't draw a line between
two "boxes" then the program -wont- let you draw it), a
near non-existent learning curve, and comes replete with
all the bells and whistles (debugger, tracing blahblahblah).
I was impressed, seriously impressed. I want this...dunno
any of yall that wouldn't... it's just too sweet...
now supposedly, there isn't any actual code created...
i.e.: its not like a super fancy visual IDE whereby each
"structure" (function, while-do, for-next, if-then)
just has a picture and you link the pictures and then
the program spits out .e or .ex type files and compiles
and runs....no... it supposedly runs -the diagrams-
and is inherently parallel that way, since each picture
can have multiple lines input to it, and the output
from that 'picture' (control structure) will only
happen if all the proper inputs are present... akin
to methods i suppose.
however!
I think euphoria, if turned into a really good visual IDE,
where each structure had a picture, and the resultant
'flow chart' (end result program) would then be turned
into a set of .ew and .exw files and ran. that would
be a great direction to take euphoria, PEU, and gnueuphoria.
the parallel tasking would be hard, but could be implemented
via threading.
(see how smoothly i integrated everything to language
generation? :) )
how does this equate with associative versus analytical
thinking? this would be the first time any of us programming
with euphoria could design -both- topdown and bottomup and
for that matter horizontally, vertically, outwards and
inwards... it would allow both halves and all rooms
of the brain to function *simultaneously* while coding.
(picture drawing? :))
huge project. yes. the generation of toolboxes alone...whew.
need a 'toolbox' or a symbol/picture for fileIO, decision
makers, var declar, network connecting, multimedia playing
and recording, text and graphic displaying (the Show symbol
would handle most of it, using defaults for some Mmedia
types or custom forms for other things and would automagically
pick what was needed as something got input to it, much like
windoze knows what to spawn when you double click), database
routines, and loops... to name a few...
<dreaming>
just drop a symbol on the main drawing board, right click
to set any needed properties (values, names, filenames, color...etc)
then draw a line to somewhere else... run app...nice?
</dreaming>
***** ******* ********
* 2 *----* mul *-+--* show *
***** ******* | ********
***** | |
* 5 *-------/ ************
***** * tada.wav *
| ************
|
######### ********
# 100 #2#-+--* show *
######### | ********
--+--\
| ******* ********
\-* mul *---* show *
******* ********
mults 2*5 and shows the result while *simultaneously* playing
the wave file, but only plays the wave after the result (10)
is determined.
also!, in a parallel thread, 5 is input to a fornext block.
the 100 is the end and the 2 is the step
(for x=5 to 100 by 2 puts (x) end for) and the result
of each iteration is shown AND piped into both sides
of a mult block (giving the square) and the square is
also shown. all these events happen together...(dreaming!)
even just linear program flow drawn this way...sweet
take care all--Hawke'
2. Re: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
- Posted by bonn ortloff <kc7yrh at HOTMAIL.COM>
Aug 03, 1998
-
Last edited Aug 04, 1998
Just one little coment left over from my last reply... You know how
close Euphoria is to a 4th gen language? very close, indeed. jeez...
I'll strive for the 4th gen Euphoria as much as I can. (Just blew me
away... NOW.)
- "LEVIATHAN"
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
3. Re: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
There was a graphical language for music programming based on the same
concepts; I forget the name of it now. I implemented my own version of it,
based on a fairly limited understanding, it QBasic in text mode. The line
drawing was the most complicated part. It's not that difficult to do.
There is an article on Prograph in the latest version of Dr Dobb's;
apparently there is a demo version avaliable on the net somewhere (I don't
have the magazine in front of me right now). There are also free complete
copies of Prograph available for (much) earlier Mac versions.
Why not start writing it yourself?
-- David Cuny
4. Re: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
-----Original Message-----
De: Hawke <mdeland at NWINFO.NET>
Para: EUPHORIA at cwisserver1.mcs.muohio.edu
<EUPHORIA at cwisserver1.mcs.muohio.edu>
Fecha: Martes 4 de Agosto de 1998 02:06 AM
Asunto: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
>Without our knowledge, Prograph was created, and for those
>of you that haven't heard of it yet, and yes, I know this
>rapidly goes off topic, potentially injures Rob's feelings,
>and all that.... patience, bear with me...
I think there's some confusion between a programming language
generation and the programing paradigm it follows. Example of
generations are, as Hawk mentioned, pure machine code, then
assembly where all machine language is abstracted into "easily"
codeable nemotecnics, etc... What does define a generation
then? The answer is abstraction. The higher the abstraction, more
evolved is the language. On the other side (but closely related) are
programming paradigms. Languages like Prograph can be defined
as an iconographic language, other languages can be defined as
procedural (Pascal, C), OO (Ada), functional (Scheme), etc... there
are also hibrid languages. I think Euphoria is a hibrid language. It's
procedural & functional, with some (potential) aspects of OO.
Regards,
Daniel Berstein
daber at pair.com
5. Re: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
- Posted by Hawke <mdeland at NWINFO.NET>
Aug 04, 1998
-
Last edited Aug 05, 1998
David Cuny wrote:
> There is an article on Prograph in the latest version of Dr Dobb's;
> apparently there is a demo version avaliable on the net somewhere (I don't
> have the magazine in front of me right now). There are also free complete
> copies of Prograph available for (much) earlier Mac versions.
yeah, that was partially what I was referencing, also the main
ProGraph site, which also has a limited demo for windoze and mac
both...to attempt to stay on theme here, if you want the url,
send me private email...
> Why not start writing it yourself?
that is exactly what I was alluding to.... really really really
big project to turn euph into this extremely advanced visual IDE...
i say extremely advanced since not only would my 'dream' euph IDE
include resource editors like those currently available for euph
(visualwin32 written by someone here in VisBasic--apologies for
forgetting your name, and pleasecontinue your fine work) and
for that matter vis basic and vis C, but would actually be more
like complete autocode generation systems based on (as someone else
mentioned) iconographic style abstracted programming...
<plea> team euph: hewlp! hewlp! </plea> tis a large project
i want to undertake, and probably cannot be completed without
much updated win32.lib (dave??? i know you wanna get gnuphoria
code you have trapped in your head on papyrus first, i can truly
relate... gotta code it while its on the forefront) (irv??? you
mentioned that you might make some nuts/bolts if dave couldnt
immediately return to working on win32.lib)
i would love to start coding this, but frankly, i need a tad more
in the way of lower level wrappers written, which i could then
take and maybe (with help) create this (what to call it?)
"iconophoria"...
take care all--Hawke'
> -- David Cuny
6. Re: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
- Posted by Monty King <boot_me at GEOCITIES.COM>
Aug 05, 1998
-
Last edited Aug 06, 1998
>would actually be more
>like complete autocode generation systems based on (as someone else
>mentioned) iconographic style abstracted programming...
I have been thinking about this for a while,
I think that I am going to try to do it with Dos though, I think the
Windows 32 interface is not what I want right now. Thinking about trying it
with David's Winman project, except last time I heard Winman was up to the
functional writing programs with it stage... more like a big long program
and not an .e file. A graphical programming interface would make a nice
backdrop to Winman, and the programs could run using the gui, kind of like a
trace back, jump into the project anywhere you want.
And am trying to do somthing like this...calling project EUGUI. Liked
the sound of it.
Monty in Oregon
7. Re: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
Monty King wrote:
>
> >would actually be more
> >like complete autocode generation systems based on (as someone else
> >mentioned) iconographic style abstracted programming...
...
This is a very interesting idea, and one that seems "do-able".
A wild guess is that it would be on the same order of complexity
as writing a complete, easy to use interface to Windows.
With Euphoria, you are working with a very small number of commands and
datatypes. That would minimize the number of "objects" and
"connections".
Even a subset of the Eu 1.5 core language would make a usable system.
> I have been thinking about this for a while,
> I think that I am going to try to do it with Dos though, I think the
> Windows 32 interface is not what I want right now.
...
Good decision - Windows may impose too much of itself on what
you are trying to do. Too limiting, plus tons of extra code you'd
add just to keep Windows happy.
There was an article in (BYTE, I think) a few years ago about
programming
in 3-D. (Not 3-D graphcs programming, but writing programs using a 3-D
interface)
It was a theoretical article discussing the concepts , but there
were some screen shots of a program being "built" - the interpreter
running on a mainframe at some university.
> And am trying to do somthing like this...calling project EUGUI. Liked
> the sound of it.
...
Pronounced euww, gooie! ? :p
Let me know if I can help!
Irv
8. Re: Language Generation & Gnuphoria & Win32lib & Associative...
Monty King wrote:
>
> >would actually be more
> >like complete autocode generation systems based on (as someone else
> >mentioned) iconographic style abstracted programming...
>
> I have been thinking about this for a while,
Monty:
Could you post more detail? Either a discussion of your concept, or
perhaps
a graphic "sample screen" - could draw this with any graphics program -
as
a starting point.
Thanks,
Irv
