1. Acknowledgement
- Posted by francis at gmx.co.uk
Sep 25, 2002
I am by trade a C programmer, however my friend introduced me to Euphoria
1.3 years ago (from memory) and I
myself am a huge advocate of the language.
I run many channels on various IRC (chat) networks, and my latest endevour
has been to program a bot (mind you,
COMPLETELY in euphoria - I hard coded some of the critical socket
functions in a DLL but my P-100 processor
cannot detect the speed difference when the sockets are implemented using
Euphoria instead of an "easy TCP"
DLL).
This project is now complete, and fully operational - and another public
"euphoric" example of displaying the
power (but more rationally the actual ease of TIME you can program
something in) of Euphoria, for hundreds of
chat users a day.
I do not participate in this community much, however I gloss over this
list from time to time. In the course of
digesting this "community" list for YEARS, learning the entire Win32API in
the process and independantly
programming in several different languages repeating the same process with
their respective communities, I have
a bone to pick:
And it is thus:
Having downloaded libraries willy nilly, and learnt a lot from them, I
cannot STAND the fact that literally
EVERY fucking thing has to be "acknowledged". I find this list bordering
on the EXTREME of commentory: "-- I
poked 2 bytes into this memory address - thanks XXXX for the poke2 code"
or "Thanks you to David Cuny for this
link_dll routine" or "link c_function routine" when all the routines are
like basically one liners.
Fair enough - David Cuny has progressively done a LOT for euphoria, and I
do not think he goes out to
"copyright" any individual routines. But guys (and girls), this is the
most BASIC of windows programming we are
talking about here... why is EVERYTHING I downloaded pasted with damn
acknowledgements? No, technically you
CANNOT copyright a poke2, or a poke3 or a poke1 or a CreateWindowExA (and
no, American legistslation is ONLY
applicable in America, I thought EVERYONE knew that but God Have Mercy
maybe they do not teach you everything
they should in school)! Who exactly are you acknowledging here? The
Microsoft Corporation? Even the Euphoria
2.3 MACHINE.e has acknowledgements in it.
Hello? you can "LoadLibrary" in *one* C call, why the hell do you account
for the origin of source when you
"port" this to euphoria???
One more thing Euphoria needs:
A decent socket library. I had all sorts of WSAWOULDBLOCK errors from
TCP4U, which looked like the only decent
choice available. But it is completely *synchronous*. how the hell can you
program an application with
*synchronous* sockets??????? When I would WSAAsyncSelect them and get
WSAWOULDBLOCK on too oft an occasion to
be reliable, it indicates the DLL is fucking with the process. Indicating
that there was some sort of loop in
the DLL which would ioctlsocket(FIONREAD) far too often???
There is NO (easy) way to get truly asynchronous sockets in Windows by
anything but creating a window
procedure. A DLL can actually do this people, heard of RegisterClassExA/W?
(and don't tell me some while
(ioctlsocket(FIONREAD)) loop is somehow asynchronous, it's bullshit).
</rant>
2. Re: Acknowledgement
francis wrote:
> Having downloaded libraries willy nilly, and learnt a lot from them, I
> cannot STAND the fact that literally EVERY fucking thing has to be
> "acknowledged". I find this list bordering on the EXTREME of commentory:
Funny, I find credit given to people in C code all the time.
To point out the obvious: if the code were entirely trivial, there would be
no need to have taken someone else's work. But since you grabbed someone
else's work, why not not acknowledge the source? There's no actual cost - it
doesn't make the code go any slower. It's good form, and good karma.
Heck, if someone wanted to acknowledge his 5th grade math teacher in the
credits, or Plato for inspiring a love of all things logical, what's the
problem with that? For most of us, it's the only reward we'll see for putting
hours of time that would have been better spent with our families and friends
into this software. We've got no obligation to write this code at all. If
you're going to begrudge people for giving credit for work, what form of
reward will be left?
By the way, Pete Eberlein probably should get the credit for coming up with a
lot of the code for working with structures.
-- David Cuny
3. Re: Acknowledgement
Francis,
In case no one else has said it, the reason *I* put acknowledgments in any
code I submit is to courteously acknowledge that, simple as some routine
or
line of code may be, *I* didn't come up with it, & I am grateful to the
person who did. But then I'm not a professional programmer, so there may
easily be a difference in perception about what is "simple" and what is
not.
Dan Moyer
----- Original Message -----
From: <francis at gmx.co.uk>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 2:52 PM
Subject: Acknowledgement
>
> I am by trade a C programmer, however my friend introduced me to
Euphoria
> 1.3 years ago (from memory) and I
> myself am a huge advocate of the language.
>
> I run many channels on various IRC (chat) networks, and my latest
endevour
> has been to program a bot (mind you,
> COMPLETELY in euphoria - I hard coded some of the critical socket
> functions in a DLL but my P-100 processor
> cannot detect the speed difference when the sockets are implemented
using
> Euphoria instead of an "easy TCP"
> DLL).
>
> This project is now complete, and fully operational - and another public
> "euphoric" example of displaying the
> power (but more rationally the actual ease of TIME you can program
> something in) of Euphoria, for hundreds of
> chat users a day.
>
> I do not participate in this community much, however I gloss over this
> list from time to time. In the course of
> digesting this "community" list for YEARS, learning the entire Win32API
in
> the process and independantly
> programming in several different languages repeating the same process
with
> their respective communities, I have
> a bone to pick:
>
> And it is thus:
>
> Having downloaded libraries willy nilly, and learnt a lot from them, I
> cannot STAND the fact that literally
> EVERY fucking thing has to be "acknowledged". I find this list bordering
> on the EXTREME of commentory: "-- I
> poked 2 bytes into this memory address - thanks XXXX for the poke2 code"
> or "Thanks you to David Cuny for this
> link_dll routine" or "link c_function routine" when all the routines are
> like basically one liners.
>
> Fair enough - David Cuny has progressively done a LOT for euphoria, and
I
> do not think he goes out to
> "copyright" any individual routines. But guys (and girls), this is the
> most BASIC of windows programming we are
> talking about here... why is EVERYTHING I downloaded pasted with damn
> acknowledgements? No, technically you
> CANNOT copyright a poke2, or a poke3 or a poke1 or a CreateWindowExA
(and
> no, American legistslation is ONLY
> applicable in America, I thought EVERYONE knew that but God Have Mercy
> maybe they do not teach you everything
> they should in school)! Who exactly are you acknowledging here? The
> Microsoft Corporation? Even the Euphoria
> 2.3 MACHINE.e has acknowledgements in it.
>
> Hello? you can "LoadLibrary" in *one* C call, why the hell do you
account
> for the origin of source when you
> "port" this to euphoria???
>
> One more thing Euphoria needs:
> A decent socket library. I had all sorts of WSAWOULDBLOCK errors from
> TCP4U, which looked like the only decent
> choice available. But it is completely *synchronous*. how the hell can
you
> program an application with
> *synchronous* sockets??????? When I would WSAAsyncSelect them and get
> WSAWOULDBLOCK on too oft an occasion to
> be reliable, it indicates the DLL is fucking with the process.
Indicating
> that there was some sort of loop in
> the DLL which would ioctlsocket(FIONREAD) far too often???
>
> There is NO (easy) way to get truly asynchronous sockets in Windows by
> anything but creating a window
> procedure. A DLL can actually do this people, heard of
RegisterClassExA/W?
> (and don't tell me some while
> (ioctlsocket(FIONREAD)) loop is somehow asynchronous, it's bullshit).
>
> </rant>
>
>
>
>
4. Acknowledgement
I was reading up on the source license for the interpreter source code a
couple of days ago, and something about parts of it are just nagging at
me. Was hoping some one would shed some light on this for me.
I will use an example to try and keep my thoughts coherent (not enough
sleep lately =)
:::Example 1:::
1> I download the public version of Euphoria and create a decent program
from it
2> I distribute MyProg.exw and exw.exe with *no* acknowledgement to
Euphoria or any links to thier web site. [refman section 1.5.1] "We
would appreciate it if you told people that your program was developed
using Euphoria, and gave them the address: http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
of our Web page, but we do not require any such acknowledgment"
:::Example 2:::
1> I purchase the interpreter source code and compile it as is with no
modifications
2> I again create a program for distribution
3> This time (since I purchased the source code) I *am* required to
acknowledge both Euphoria and its web site. [source licence section 7]
"You are required to acknowledge the use of our source code, list our
Web site, http://www.RapidEuphoria.com, and indicate the general nature
of any changes you made to our source code, in any programs that you
distribute. The acknowledgement could be displayed by the program, or be
in the accompanying documentation, but it must be plainly visible to
most users"
I am not trying to rock the boat or anything, I just dont understand
where the difference lies. It seems passing funny to me that if I use
the free version, no acknowledgement required, but if I *pay* for it, it
is.
5. Re: Acknowledgement
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:29:30 +0000, Don Phillips <EuNexus at yahoo.com>
wrote:
>I am not trying to rock the boat or anything, I just dont understand=20
>where the difference lies. It seems passing funny to me that if I use=20
>the free version, no acknowledgement required, but if I *pay* for it, it=
>is.
My $0.02: work created with free version: no ack.
work created with normal reg'd version: no ack:
work based on source & extending Rob's work: ack rqd.
Fair & proper, I think. Why exactly are you complaining/questioning
this?
Pete
6. Re: Acknowledgement
Don Phillips writes:
> I was reading up on the source license for the
> interpreter source code a couple of days ago,
> and something about parts of it are just nagging at
> me. Was hoping some one would shed some light on this for me.
I'm guessing that you read this section:
"You are required to acknowledge the use of our source code, list our
Web site, http://www.RapidEuphoria.com, and indicate the general nature
of any changes you made to our source code, in any programs that you
distribute."
and you were worried that you now have to place an
acknowledgement in all *Euphoria* programs that
you distribute. That's not the intention. By "programs",
I mean here any programs that you build using the C source code.
Programs that you or anyone else writes in Euphoria
do not require any acknowledgement of RDS.
I'll clarify that for the next release.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
