1. greed corner
On a particularly bad day, like today, I feel like asking Robert to
create a special section on his Official Euphoria Page: the greed
corner.
This is not a declaration of war, possibly just a cultural difference,
but I think all those items with the tag 'no source, but worth a
look' deserve a more appropriate line: 'wants to show off, but does
not want to share'. Jiri
2. Re: greed corner
>
> This is not a declaration of war, possibly just a cultural difference,
> but I think all those items with the tag 'no source, but worth a
> look' deserve a more appropriate line: 'wants to show off, but does
> not want to share'. Jiri
>
Well, I wouldn't be so blatant, but I agree that if someone wants to
advertise their new algorithm, they should include source. Else, if they just
want to make a game or some other demo for commercial purposes, they should
say that too -- executables sans source aren't any good for learning, and
only discourage people who feel hopelessly behind.
--
Cameron Kaiser
http://www.sserv.com/
spectre at sserv.com
--
An all new Spectre Server!
Visit it now: http://www.sserv.com/
3. Re: greed corner
- Posted by Faerun McLeam <photek.maven.gov at JUNO.COM>
Jan 20, 1998
-
Last edited Jan 21, 1998
PHoTeK
MaVeN
1000010000110
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:41:33 +1200 "BABOR, JIRI" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
writes:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: Euphoria Programming for MS-DOS
><EUPHORIA at MIAMIU.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
>Poster: "BABOR, JIRI" <J.Babor at GNS.CRI.NZ>
>Subject: greed corner
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>On a particularly bad day, like today, I feel like asking Robert to
>create a special section on his Official Euphoria Page: the greed
>corner.
>
>This is not a declaration of war, possibly just a cultural difference,
>but I think all those items with the tag 'no source, but worth a
>look' deserve a more appropriate line: 'wants to show off, but does
>not want to share'. Jiri
>
I for one agree totally, the whole reason I started programming
in Euphoria is because it was a think tank.... I guess some like thier
minds bottled instead of tanked... it is selfish to not provide source
for a program being placed in public domain, and also it is a show of
insecurity and childishness..
And that's all I got to say
about that,
PHoTeK
4. Re: greed corner
- Posted by Michael Packard <lgp at EXO.COM>
Jan 20, 1998
-
Last edited Jan 21, 1998
On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Faerun McLeam wrote:
> I for one agree totally, the whole reason I started programming
> in Euphoria is because it was a think tank.... I guess some like thier
> minds bottled instead of tanked... it is selfish to not provide source
> for a program being placed in public domain, and also it is a show of
> insecurity and childishness..
> And that's all I got to say
> about that,
> PHoTeK
>
I think it's premature to ask for source to something that is a DEMO of an
engine that is INCOMPLETE. It's not an issue of childishness or
insecurity for them to want to hold off until they get the bugs out, add
the features they want and clean up the code. I'm glad when people post
executables of works in progress. I don't wanna futz with code that
doesn't work completely yet and hasn't been adaquately documented to be of
any use. More than likely they'll change things around as they
optimize the code anyway, so it's better to wait. It's cool they wanna
show us anything before it's ready. I'm sure if you asked them they'd
tell you what they're doing. Heck even I have been known to share
techniques and routines from time to time.
relax.
Michael Packard
Lord Generic Productions
lgp at exo.com http://exo.com/~lgp/euphoria
5. Re: greed corner
At 09:41 21/01/98 +1200, Jiri wrote:
>On a particularly bad day, like today, ... blah blah blah
22:58 Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:58:15 Faerun McLeam wrote
it is selfish to not provide source for a program being placed
in public domain, and also it is a show of insecurity and
childishness..
Bad day huh?
What did you do today?
I'm a builders' labourer, mate. Today I got up at 5:30am and
spent 6 hours sweating my guts out in the blinding Queensland
summer, laying a concrete slab. After that I spent 5 hours
fixing up a rotten fence in someone's back yard. I arrived
home today as I usually do, covered in dirt, blisters, cuts
insect bites, and dragged myself up the stairs to sit in
front of my computer and keep working.
Why? Because I have this fantasy that one day I will write
some software that someone will pay money for before my back
goes and I end up a crippled old man.
Before you guys start making your holier-than-thou blanket
statements about how everyone who wears red socks is Santa-
Claus, perhaps you should think about what the words you
speak may mean in the context of someone else's life. I'm
sure the people you're imagining are out there, but I don't
think they're the majority.
Why don't you send Rob Craig a note telling him he's greedy,
insecure and childish for not releasing the source for the
EU interpreter?
Graeme Burke.
'I dis-agree with what you say but will defend to the death
your right to say it.' - or something like that.
6. Re: greed corner
Graeme wrote:
>I'm a builders' labourer, mate. ... blah blah blah
I said, I did not want to start a flame war over this, it was meant as
a gentle }-) prod, but you obviously stayed for far too long in the
magnificent Qeensland sun yesterday. (Btw, I did a fair share of ditch
digging and concrete smashing in my time, so I sympathize, but I
definitely do not feel sorry for you.)
Several people said it already, and probably better, this group is all
about sharing, mutual help. I do not like commercials on television,
on the radio, on the side of the road, and hate them even more in my
mail. Alternatively, if the guys are insecure enough and do not want
to release the work in progress, it is a pity too. I find it much
more fascinating and illuminating to follow evolution of an idea, than
to try to analyze a final, slick product.
And, Graeme, I hope all your dreams and fantasies come true. Jiri
7. Re: greed corner
- Posted by Greg Harris <blackdog at CDC.NET>
Jan 21, 1998
-
Last edited Jan 22, 1998
>Several people said it already, and probably better, this group is all
>about sharing, mutual help. I do not like commercials on television,
>on the radio, on the side of the road, and hate them even more in my
>mail. Alternatively, if the guys are insecure enough and do not want
>to release the work in progress, it is a pity too. I find it much
>more fascinating and illuminating to follow evolution of an idea, than
>to try to analyze a final, slick product.
Warning on soap box (if you don't want to read it delete it now):
I find it amazing that we have been "blasted" for simply doing what this
group is really about - Programming in Euphoria. It is also a place to
discuss ideas and swap programming advice. Whether one programs in Euphoria
for a hobby or as a professional programmer is really immaterial.
We posted our work in progress not to show us off, but to show off Euphoria.
I can remember a thread that was started here a while back that said that
Euphoria could not handle 3D Graphics. Well it can. All we wanted to do was
show off the capabilites of Euphoria. Are new programmers going to want to
learn a langauge that can only handle flat graphics and text? I don't think
so. Why not show them another good reason to program in Euphoria.
As to commercials? I didn't mention to anyone to buy anything. That what a
commercial is. It tempts you you buy something. We just gave everybody a
chance to look at our work-in-progress. No one twisted anybody's arm to
download it.
As to the source code, it belongs solely to the members of Hollow Horse
Software. We can do with it want we want. However, we have every intention
in releasing the engine when it is finished with full source code. This has
been our intention from the start. This technology is "old" and is well
published on the net and in publicly available books.
We only want to release quality software to the general public. We do not
want to release half finished code that might contain bugs or worse.
The engine is still in the rough "alpha" stages and is subject to change.
The whole raycaster procedure is being converted to assembly for speed which
will take some time. Objects still have to be implemented. Screen sizing is
going to be added. I have even thought about maybe implementing moving
backgrounds if I can get the fps up to a reasonable level. I'm not about to
release the source code this early.
Enough said. Off soap box.
Greg Harris
Hollow Horse Software
8. Re: greed corner
PHoTeK
MaVeN
1000010000110
On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:31:16 +1100 "Graeme." <hmi at POWERUP.COM.AU> writes:
>
>Bad day huh?
>
>What did you do today?
>
>
>Why? Because I have this fantasy that one day I will write
>some software that someone will pay money for before my back
>goes and I end up a crippled old man.
That isn't public domain then, and if they gave code we could
help them... if they wanted or atleast give suggestions...
>Why don't you send Rob Craig a note telling him he's greedy,
>insecure and childish for not releasing the source for the
>EU interpreter?
Because that isn't public domain, and it's his bread and
butter... but while I'm at it... hey robert, could you email me with some
txt on tips to build something as complex as a interpreter... thanxx..
>
>Graeme Burke.
>
>'I dis-agree with what you say but will defend to the death
>your right to say it.' - or something like that.
>
Thanx, I apreciate your honesty.
9. Re: greed corner
Faerun McLeam writes:
> ... but while I'm at it... hey robert, could you email me with some
> txt on tips to build something as complex as a interpreter... thanxx..
I would enjoy writing (in Euphoria) an interpreter for a tiny
"toy" language, just as an educational demo. Alas, I find myself
increasingly pinned down on work within ex.exe and exw.exe
(I hate C!), with less time for writing Euphoria programs.
However, if we are lucky, I believe David Cuny was starting to
write a Basic interpreter in Euphoria. (He already did a Basic
to Euphoria *translator*). If we are nice to him, he might even
contribute the source.
As for the source to ex.exe/exw.exe, I would be willing to consider
making it available someday, if I thought it would help the
growth of Euphoria and wouldn't cut off my income. For example,
I might be willing to make the "core" language source available
(possibly for a fee), so other people could port it to Unix, Mac
etc. I might strip out the highly DOS and Windows-specific code,
so I wouldn't be giving away the DOS/Windows platforms.
BTW, Netscape announced today that their browser will now be
free (not shareware) and they will make the source available for
free as well. Of course they make most of their money in other ways.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
10. Re: greed corner
At 04:52 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
<snip>
>As for the source to ex.exe/exw.exe, I would be willing to consider
>making it available someday, if I thought it would help the
>growth of Euphoria and wouldn't cut off my income. For example,
>I might be willing to make the "core" language source available
>(possibly for a fee), so other people could port it to Unix, Mac
>etc. I might strip out the highly DOS and Windows-specific code,
>so I wouldn't be giving away the DOS/Windows platforms.
>
An alternate idea:
More people, including the folks at RDS, might benefit if you could
provide a version of Euphoria which could "hook" to operating system calls.
Keep the inner workings secret, so they don't get trashed by our feeble
attempts to "improve" it, but still allow porting to lots of different
platforms.
People who use Macs have few options for an inexpensive
programming language, and Linux folks pretty much have to
use C <gak> or perl, etc. none of which can claim simplicity,
much less safety. There are some other platforms out there,
also, although we don't hear much about them in our press
(not enough ad revenue, I guess).
I run Linux on my pc, but I just have no interest in spending
six months learning C just to write a (buggy) hello world prog.
Euphoria I _would_ use.
I would not surprise me if people (like the nice folks on this list)
would develop the low-level interface code for their favorite
os and either contribute it to the public domain or sell it for a
modest price.
>BTW, Netscape announced today that their browser will now be
>free (not shareware) and they will make the source available for
>free....
Hmm... I can't wait for my chance to wade thru half a million
lines of code!
Irv
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