1. ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Craig" <guest at RapidEuphoria.com>
To: <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
>
>
> posted by: Robert Craig <rds at RapidEuphoria.com>
>
> Derek Parnell wrote:
> > Version 2.0 Official Release March 25, 1998
> > + 12 months
> > Version 2.1 Official Release for WIN32 + DOS32 March 29, 1999
> > + 10 months
> > Version 2.2 Official Release for WIN32+DOS32 January 14, 2000
> > + 25 months
>
> During that time I spent a year designing, developing and porting the
> Euphoria to C Translator to 4 platforms and 7 different C compilers.
> I should have merged that information into the release notes.
>
> > Version 2.3 Official Release February 11, 2002
> > + 18 months
> > Version 2.4 Official Release July 3, 2003
> > + 18 months?
> > Version 2.5 ?December, 2004?
> > That's right, we have moved from v2.0 to v2.5 in 6.5 years. Not Fast.
>
> Maybe I should call the next one 3.0. Will that help?
>
> Isn't Win32Lib officially still an "alpha" release, 0.60.5,
> after those same 6.5 years? 
>
Ya know, he's right.
Euphoria is a work of art in progress:
DON'T RUSH IT.
> > RDS is slow to release anything, and they keep declining offers of help.
> > Could this be another reason for people being discouraged?
> >
> > Yes, I know there is a shitload of work to get out a new release, but
> > there is also many able people to help, if only you'd let them.
>
> Yeah, I heard you can produce a baby in 1 month by
> assigning 9 women to the job.
>
Once again, he is quite justified with his sarcasm. I know from programming
what a pain it is to implement some fix or another every time someone sends
me one.
It isn't too hard to implement some things (like Tommy sending me a icon)
However, when you have 30+ people sending you 10+ suggestions every month,
it gets hard.
I appreciate the hard work Rob puts into Euphoria, and I'm willing to wait
for the next release (even though I'm *Really* anxious to get my hands on
the x[1..$] and the error handler features ) :)
You need to understand the pressure Rob takes on in writing the language.
Read: LAY OFF, will ya?
> > I would prefer a major release every 6 months with weekly minor (patch)
> > releases, instead of this cold molasses.
>
> That's what I keep telling myself.
> It just never works out that way.
> There's just a lot of overhead in getting
> a new release out, plus when do I charge for an upgrade?
> I'll give it some thought.
>
This too I can understand. He uses a setup utility, so new releases that
often is tough.
However, Rob, if you are wondering about pricing, here is what I would
suggest:
Plan 1)
Whenever you make a major upgrade (i.e. 2.x to 3.y), charge the normal
upgrade price.
Whenever you make a minor upgrade (i.e. x.1 to x.y), make it free.
Plan 2)
Do only little upgrades, and charge $2 per.
> > Perfection is not so nearly
> > as important as improvement. Having a perfect product that doesn't meet
> > my needs is not much use. Having a nearly perfect product that I can
still
> > use is a much better prospect.
> >
Your twisting things around here. A perfect product *will* meet your needs
and more.
In this crooked world, nothing is perfect. (Euphoria does come the closest
to it, however.)
Fact of the matter is, their will *****ALWAYS***** be something more I could
ask for in Euphoria.
There is nothing Euphoria can't do that C can do, though I openly admit that
there are somethings that are done much easier in C than Eu.
Derek, there is an important character lesson here: Contentment and
patience. Be content with what you have in Euphoria, and when you want more,
be patient for it.
> > Robert,
> > Are you using beta testers?
>
> Every official release comes after an alpha and a beta
> release. Earlier releases would waste my time on
> handling a lot of bug reports and questions. I have tons of
> existing Euphoria code I can use as testing fodder.
>
Well there you go. :)
> > Has anyone impartially inspected or reviewed your code?
>
> Not besides Junko, but very soon the entire world will
> be able to inspect the front-end of Euphoria, and everyone will
> own a complete Euphoria interpreter with 100% Euphoria source code,
> able to run all Euphoria programs on all platforms.
>
That I think is a bit obvious.
> > Do you have a formal(-ish) issue log that you are working through?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Do you need more man-hours in the day to work on Euphoria?
>
> Of course.
>
Who doesn't? I, personally, have to allocate my time as follows:
10 hours sleeping
15 hours programming
1 hour eating
2 hours playing
3 hours talking
_____________
31 hours per day.
> > Sorry to sound so frustrated, but I am. I love Euphoria and I continue
> > to champion it, but I also begin to tire.
>
So do I. But the difference between you and me is this:
I don't complain.
> I thank you for your patience, and your tremendous
> efforts on Win32Lib. Euphoria would be in deep trouble without you.
>
> I'd like to speed up my progress too. I have been slacking
> off a bit, but you have to give me credit for sticking with
> this project for 15 years (since initial design - 1.0 was
> released 11 years ago). But I would certainly turn it over to
> the masses if I couldn't or didn't want to continue.
>
As an ADHD child: I look up to that fact. It's hard for me to concentrate on
1 thing and not abandon it.
> Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
2. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
William,
You don't fully comprehend the situation, and you are young. Both of
these facts contributed to the unnecessary post you made. There's no
need to talk down to or lecture Derek, or any other "veteran" of this
list. He's been around here a LOT longer than you and has a different
(more accurate) viewpoint of the development of Euphoria. We have all
demonstrated patience in dealing with RDS, and I, like others who have
stuck around for a few years, appreciate Euphoria enough to champion it
AND enough to pressure Rob into making it better. Rob's able to handle
the criticisms and critiques well enough or he wouldn't still be here.
-=ck
"Programming in a state of EUPHORIA."
http://www.cklester.com/euphoria/
3. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
cklester wrote:
> You don't fully comprehend the situation, and you are young. Both of
> these facts contributed to the unnecessary post you made. There's no
> need to talk down to or lecture Derek, or any other "veteran" of this
> list. He's been around here a LOT longer than you and has a different
> (more accurate) viewpoint of the development of Euphoria. We have all
> demonstrated patience in dealing with RDS, and I, like others who have
> stuck around for a few years, appreciate Euphoria enough to champion it
> AND enough to pressure Rob into making it better. Rob's able to handle
> the criticisms and critiques well enough or he wouldn't still be here.
True. Rob is good at programming, but not so good at promoting.
People like excitement, and that's one thing you don't get with
Euphoria. That may be one of the reasons Euphoria hasn't become
popular.
I can think of at least a few ways to create more excitement:
1. Frequent releases with some beta features to look forward to,
as suggested by Derek.
2. More involvement with the community (beta testers, etc)
3. A different approach to suggestions. The stock replies to most
suggestions; (A.Never / B.Not in your lifetime / C.Do it yourself)
aren't likely to do much to generate continued interest and excitement.
4. A vision for the future. Even an unrealistic/unrealizable one
is better than none.
Irv
4. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
- Posted by cklester <cklester at yahoo.com>
Sep 17, 2004
-
Last edited Sep 18, 2004
irv mullins wrote:
>
> I can think of at least a few ways to create more excitement:
You forgot "Scantilly clad females on the home page." :P
-=ck
"Programming in a state of EUPHORIA."
http://www.cklester.com/euphoria/
5. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
- Posted by Jonas Temple <jtemple at yhti.net>
Sep 17, 2004
-
Last edited Sep 18, 2004
cklester wrote:
>
> irv mullins wrote:
> >
> > I can think of at least a few ways to create more excitement:
>
> You forgot "Scantilly clad females on the home page." :P
>
CK!
I'm surprised at you! ;)
Jonas
6. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
- Posted by Tone Škoda <tskoda at email.si>
Sep 17, 2004
-
Last edited Sep 18, 2004
William Heimbigner wrote:
>(even though I'm *Really* anxious to get my hands on
> the x[1..$] and the error handler features ) :)
this $ operator wont much improve language, but even complicate it a little.
x [1... length (x)] is more intuitive, more logical, and simpler.
the reason i like euphoria is because it is intuitive, logical, simple, doesnt
have many rules and other things to remember and doesnt have ugly syntax. you can
concentrate more on your program and don't have to on language. you dont have to
learn it long to start using it. C++ is the opposite: you would have to learn it
for years to fully understand it. if you stop using euphoria for a few months or
years and then come back to it you easily remember how to program in it.
speed and low memory usage is still important to me.
all the features that users want should be added to euphoria, as long as they
dont ruin the things which i mentioned on top why i like euphoria.
7. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
- Posted by Terry Constant <EUforum at terryconstant.com>
Sep 17, 2004
-
Last edited Sep 18, 2004
irv mullins wrote:
>
> True. Rob is good at programming, but not so good at promoting.
> People like excitement
It is true that SOME people like excitement.
It is also true that SOME people like stability.
I don't think that any one or single category of personality traits
should determine Euphoria's course. Read the classic in the field,
_Future Shock_ by Alvin Toffler for improved insight into the areas
of the excitement about which you wrote and the stability that I
mentioned. There are PROs and CONs.
Terry Constant
8. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
- Posted by "Juergen Luethje" <j.lue at gmx.de>
Sep 17, 2004
-
Last edited Sep 18, 2004
cklester wrote:
> William,
>
> You don't fully comprehend the situation, and you are young. Both of
> these facts contributed to the unnecessary post you made. There's no
> need to talk down to or lecture Derek, or any other "veteran" of this
> list. He's been around here a LOT longer than you
<snip>
Maybe Derek has been around here even longer than William has been
around on this planet ...
BTW ATTN: William:
Don't change the subject of a thread, until there is an _important_
reason!
a) It is simply bad style.
b) Some mail clients sort posts on a mailing list by subject. You
destroy this possibility.
c) RDS recently has implemented a nice feature in EUforum: When viewing
a message, and clicking at the subject line, all posts in that thread
are displayed. You destroy this possibility.
d) When you reply to Derek, I'm pretty sure he is smart enough to notice
it, without "ATTN: Derek:" in the subject.
e) After replies by other people, "ATTN: Derek:" probably doesn't make
sense anymore anyway.
Regards,
Juergen
--
A: Because it considerably reduces the readability of the text.
Q: Why?
A: Top posting.
Q: What is annoying in e-mail and news?
9. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
I think it's safe to say that _ALL_ people like excitement. Even if they
don't get overly excited themselves, they still like to see other people
excited about things. There's actually a quite scientific term to
describe
anyone who doesn't and it's called "clinical depression". And, I'm not
being sarcastic when I say, if you find anyone who doesn't even like
to see
even the excitement of other people, it would be worth having them
checked
for clinical depression.
On the other hand, if you are speaking of stability as in --being able to
have faith in something-- then I'd also say that all people like
stability.
For example, can you think of a single person who would _LIKE_ not knowing
if a chair was going to hold them up or not, everytime they were about to
sit down? I can't. All people like stability. They like knowing that
things will do what they are supposed to do.
However, the presence of "stability" is not equal to the absence of
"excitement". Stability does not have to mean that things are dull and
unexciting. In the flashy hi-tech world that we live in, people don't
even
notice things, if you don't show them some sort of excitement. Think
about
Coke. Now, that's a stable company. But, why do you think they spend
millions and millions of dollars in advertising, trying to make themselves
look exciting to you? Because they know that without excitement, it
doesn't
matter how stable they have been in the past, they are still dead.
And, yes, I agree with the person who spoke about customer service (can't
remember who that was). If you want to make a product for your own self,
you can do anything you want to do with it. But, if you want to sell
it.......to make money from it, then you have to follow the basic rule of
business that says, "The customer is always right." That means, if the
majority of customers want something, you go to any length you have to
go to
provide it for them. Or, if it is impossible to provide, you go to every
length you can to try to _look like_ you are providing that for them.
It's
just a basic rule of business. You can say, "I don't care what they
think,
it's my product and I'll do it my way." if you want to say that. However,
you have just spoken a prophetic message about it being "your product".
You'll eventually find that there is no customer base.
Michelle Rogers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Constant" <guest at RapidEuphoria.com>
To: <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
>
>
> posted by: Terry Constant <EUforum at terryconstant.com>
>
> irv mullins wrote:
> >
> > True. Rob is good at programming, but not so good at promoting.
> > People like excitement
>
> It is true that SOME people like excitement.
> It is also true that SOME people like stability.
> I don't think that any one or single category of personality traits
> should determine Euphoria's course. Read the classic in the field,
> _Future Shock_ by Alvin Toffler for improved insight into the areas
> of the excitement about which you wrote and the stability that I
> mentioned. There are PROs and CONs.
>
> Terry Constant
>
>
>
>
10. Re: ATTN: Derek Re: Euphoria needs more popularity!
No comment.
--
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
