1. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at nt.net>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
Derek Parnell wrote:
>
>
> posted by: Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com>
>
> Chris Bensler wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > I use subfolders as much as possible.
> >
> > Win32lib would be easier to deal with, if it were distributed as a
> > self contained subfolder.
> > Instead it has to be placed directly in the include path, which
> > combined with countless other libraries,
> > begins to cause issues with 'filename clashing'. Another namespacing
> > problem that has yet to come to a head.
>
> Could you expand on this, as I don't think I quite understand.
>
> Are you saying that instead of coding "include w32user.ew" I should be
> coding something like "include win32lib\w32user.ew" ? And that the user
> should have something like "set EUINC=C:\eu\thirdparty" and then install
>
> the win32lib library includes in "c:\eu\thirdparty\win32lib\" ?
>
>
> --
> Derek Parnell
> Melbourne, Australia
Yes, that's correct.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
2. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at nt.net>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
> It's documented that Euphoria ignores the second and subsequent includes
> of the same file name (although the directory paths could be different).
> I've further clarified the docs about this (just now).
>
Perhaps <u>I</u> didn't clarify well enough.
Don't you think, that just MAYBE, out of the thousands of euphoria
source files I have, that 2 of them share the same file name, although
the contents are DIFFEREENT!!!
The examples I gave happen to be identical, because they are minimal
examples.
Explain your logic for such a rediculous enforcement.
> > Using \ is apparently supposed to be the expected behaviour.
> > The fact that / works at all is considered a bug.
>
> In 2.5, forward slash and backslash are equally supported by
> Euphoria on DOS/Windows. Only forward slash will be supported
> on Linux/FreeBSD. This is in keeping with what the underlying
> operating systems support.
>
That's just plain STUPID. Isn't euphoria cross platform!!!?
I should be able to use include lib\foo.e or lib/foo.e on any platform.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
3. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by irv mullins <irvm at ellijay.com>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
Chris Bensler wrote:
>
> > It's documented that Euphoria ignores the second and subsequent includes
> > of the same file name (although the directory paths could be different).
> > I've further clarified the docs about this (just now).
> >
>
> Perhaps <u>I</u> didn't clarify well enough.
> Don't you think, that just MAYBE, out of the thousands of euphoria
> source files I have, that 2 of them share the same file name, although
> the contents are DIFFEREENT!!!
>
> The examples I gave happen to be identical, because they are minimal
> examples.
>
> Explain your logic for such a rediculous enforcement.
I really, really want to see if there is any good reason whatsoever
for euphoria to treat path1/misc.e as being the same file as path2/misc.e.
Euphoria is reading the names from the source file, and it doesn't take
a genius to see that:
path1/misc.e IS NOT the same as
path2/misc.e
> > > Using \ is apparently supposed to be the expected behaviour.
> > > The fact that / works at all is considered a bug.
> >
> > In 2.5, forward slash and backslash are equally supported by
> > Euphoria on DOS/Windows. Only forward slash will be supported
> > on Linux/FreeBSD. This is in keeping with what the underlying
> > operating systems support.
> >
>
> That's just plain STUPID. Isn't euphoria cross platform!!!?
> I should be able to use include lib\foo.e or lib/foo.e on any platform.
Rob, doesn't Euphoria have access to the platform() function?
If so, then why can't the include routine make use of it to handle
the different path separators appropriately?
If we, the users, had access to the include function, I suspect the
problem could be fixed in a matter of minutes.
Irv
4. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
I think that the include statement should only have compadability
with a "\" back slash for Windows and DOS, simply because it is the
standard method Windows and DOS use to indicate file paths.
Where as Linux and FreeBSD should use "/" forward slash, because
that is native to those OS's. Well at least I think, I never used Linux
or FreeBSD as of yet, but dont worry I will. :P
Euphoria is a programmers Utopia. {~_~}
5. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
Chris Bensler wrote:
>
> > It's documented that Euphoria ignores the second and subsequent includes
> > of the same file name (although the directory paths could be different).
> > I've further clarified the docs about this (just now).
> >
>
> Perhaps <u>I</u> didn't clarify well enough.
> Don't you think, that just MAYBE, out of the thousands of euphoria
> source files I have, that 2 of them share the same file name, although
> the contents are DIFFEREENT!!!
>
> The examples I gave happen to be identical, because they are minimal
> examples.
>
> Explain your logic for such a rediculous enforcement.
I suspect Robert was too literal. He was saying that version 2.4 behaves
this way. He did not mention v2.5 and beyond. I have asked this question
of Robert some time again and he has assured me that v2.5 will have
this and related issues corrected in 2.5.
For example:
include .\inc1.e
include inc1.e
are two 'different' files in 2.4 but the same file in 2.5.
>
> > > Using \ is apparently supposed to be the expected behaviour.
> > > The fact that / works at all is considered a bug.
> >
> > In 2.5, forward slash and backslash are equally supported by
> > Euphoria on DOS/Windows. Only forward slash will be supported
> > on Linux/FreeBSD. This is in keeping with what the underlying
> > operating systems support.
> >
>
> That's just plain STUPID. Isn't euphoria cross platform!!!?
> I should be able to use include lib\foo.e or lib/foo.e on any platform.
It turns out that this is not so stupid after all. That's because the
'\' character is a valid file name character in Unix-land.
Try doing this in a linux or unix...
echo hello >my\funny\file\name
--
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
6. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at nt.net>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
Derek Parnell wrote:
>
>
> posted by: Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com>
>
> Chris Bensler wrote:
> >
> > > It's documented that Euphoria ignores the second and subsequent includes
> > > of the same file name (although the directory paths could be different).
> > > I've further clarified the docs about this (just now).
> > >
> >
> > Perhaps <u>I</u> didn't clarify well enough.
> > Don't you think, that just MAYBE, out of the thousands of euphoria
> > source files I have, that 2 of them share the same file name, although
> > the contents are DIFFEREENT!!!
> >
> > The examples I gave happen to be identical, because they are minimal
> > examples.
> >
> > Explain your logic for such a rediculous enforcement.
>
> I suspect Robert was too literal. He was saying that version 2.4 behaves
> this way. He did not mention v2.5 and beyond. I have asked this question
> of Robert some time again and he has assured me that v2.5 will have
> this and related issues corrected in 2.5.
>
> For example:
>
> include .\inc1.e
> include inc1.e
>
> are two 'different' files in 2.4 but the same file in 2.5.
>
I haven't tested that particular example. But the whole point here is
that Euphoria is ignoring paths in the include statement. 2.4 will treat
inc1.e as duplicates afaik.
I could really care less if lib\foo.e works, as long as lib/foo.e does,
AND that euphoria recognizes lib/
>From what I understand 2.5 will simply make \ and / work. Rob didn't
express any intention to fix the identification problem. As far as he is
concerned it's "documented behaviour".
<SNIP>
> It turns out that this is not so stupid after all. That's because the
> '\' character is a valid file name character in Unix-land.
Then enforce the use of /. I prefer it anyways.
\ is also a valid escape char on BOTH platforms.
My problem #2 demonstrated the confusion it causes.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
7. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by CoJaBo <cojabo at suscom.net>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
That would not be a good idea, since it would force
cross-platform programs to have all the includes
in the same directory because there is no easy way
to switch between "include lib\file" and
"include lib/file". Euphoria shuold allow
'/' and '\' an all platforms.
Vincent wrote:
>
> I think that the include statement should only have compadability
> with a "\" back slash for Windows and DOS, simply because it is the
> standard method Windows and DOS use to indicate file paths.
> Where as Linux and FreeBSD should use "/" forward slash, because
> that is native to those OS's. Well at least I think, I never used Linux
> or FreeBSD as of yet, but dont worry I will. :P
>
>
> Euphoria is a programmers Utopia. {~_~}
>
8. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by irv mullins <irvm at ellijay.com>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
Derek Parnell wrote:
> It turns out that this is not so stupid after all. That's because the
> '\' character is a valid file name character in Unix-land.
>
> Try doing this in a linux or unix...
>
>
> echo hello >my\funny\file\name
Which I just did, and Linux removes the backslashes, so I have a
file named: myfunnyfilename
Irv
9. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com>
Oct 17, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 18, 2004
irv mullins wrote:
>
> Derek Parnell wrote:
>
> > It turns out that this is not so stupid after all. That's because the
> > '\' character is a valid file name character in Unix-land.
> >
> > Try doing this in a linux or unix...
> >
> >
> > echo hello >my\funny\file\name
>
> Which I just did, and Linux removes the backslashes, so I have a
> file named: myfunnyfilename
I was going from memory. I just tried it on an old SCO unix system
and got the same as you did. So I guess the point is that the
backslash is not being used as a directory delimiter in Unix.
--
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
10. RE: include statement bugs
Derek Parnell wrote:
<SNIP>
> If not, will v2.5 use the entire canonical path name when it
> determines whether or not to instantiate a new included file?
Thank you. That is the problem I would like adressed.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
11. RE: include statement bugs
Derek Parnell wrote:
>
>
> posted by: Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com>
>
> Robert Craig wrote:
> >
> > Derek Parnell wrote:
> > > Do you believe that two files always have the same content if
> > > the have the same name but reside in different folders?
> > >
> > > For example, given these two files ...
> > >
> > > myfolder\abc.ew
> > > yourfolder\abc.ew
> > >
> > > do you believe that their contents must therefore also be
> > > identical, just because their names are the same?
> >
> > The second include is ignored on the assumption that they
> > are essentially the same. ("belief" that they are "identical"
> > overstates things a bit)
>
>
> As an aside, I used the word "believe" rather than "assume"
> because I want a clear statement of your beliefs/philosophy.
>
> So to summarize, Euphoria will assume that any two files that have
> the same name will also have the same contents.
>
> > > If not, will v2.5 use the entire canonical path name when it
> > > determines whether or not to instantiate a new included file?
> >
> > No it won't.
>
> I am very saddened to hear this. Not because it effects my work, but
> because it describes a mindset that I'm not comfortable with.
>
> > I consider this to be a tiny issue that affects maybe 1% or less
> > of all programs. I think it took several years for anyone to
> > even notice how it works. How many people want to include two files
> > in one program, where the files have the same name, but
> > different content?
>
> I was thinking more along the lines that, for example, I distribute
> win32lib that happens to include a file called "text.e". Some person
> installs win32lib and also installs Bill's text editor library, that
> coincidently also has an include file called "text.e". My "text.e" and
> Bill's "text.e" have nothing in common and have been developed
> independantly.
>
> Why should the person who is attempting to use these two libraries be
> hindered by Euphoria's file-name assumption?
>
> > As I think back 10 years or so, I think I did it
> > this way because I didn't want:
> > graphics.e
> > .\graphics.e
> > ./graphics.e
> > c:\euphoria\include\graphics.e
> > \euphoria\include\graphics.e
> > c:graphics.e
> > to be considered "different" files, leading to
> > multiply-defined symbol error messages,
> > when in fact they might be exactly the same file,
> > or at least a copy of a file. I didn't want to write code
> > to resolve the paths, to prove that one of them was in fact
> > the same file as another.
>
> I can see and agree with your intention, but the lack of effort to
> resolve this is a worry. Making the assumption must save a few
> milliseconds for <1% of all programs.
>
> > If this bothers you, just rename one of your files (and avoid
> > confusing the reader of your code).
>
> Why do you assume that they are 'my' files and that I am in a
> position rename them? They could have been provided to me by two or
> more independant developers, and could be shrouded.
>
> > By the way, this and the backslash vs. forward slash thing
> > can be changed easily by anyone in the new source code.
>
> And will be!
>
> --
> Derek Parnell
> Melbourne, Australia
Now I remeber why I abandoned hope for RDS and began creating Empire.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
12. RE: include statement bugs
Robert Craig wrote:
<SNIP>
> The second include is ignored on the assumption that they
> are essentially the same. ("belief" that they are "identical"
> overstates things a bit)
You know what they say about 'assume', don't you?
<SNIP>
> I consider this to be a tiny issue that affects maybe 1% or less
> of all programs. I think it took several years for anyone to
> even notice how it works.
It took me all of maybe 6 months to discover that Euphoria won't let me
use subfolders.
> How many people want to include two files
> in one program, where the files have the same name, but
> different content?
If you really do keep track of the feature requests and problems that
people have with Euphoria, you should know better than me, that the
request to be able to include the SAME file more than once is very
common. Nevermind the ability to include a file with the same name but
different content. God forbid Euphoria might actually become popular and
have 1,000,000's of available source files.
They couldn't possibly use the same name, the combinations are endless.
> As I think back 10 years or so, I think I did it
> this way because I didn't want:
> graphics.e
> .\graphics.e
> ./graphics.e
> c:\euphoria\include\graphics.e
> \euphoria\include\graphics.e
> c:graphics.e
> to be considered "different" files, leading to
> multiply-defined symbol error messages,
> when in fact they might be exactly the same file,
> or at least a copy of a file. I didn't want to write code
> to resolve the paths, to prove that one of them was in fact
> the same file as another.
>
> If this bothers you, just rename one of your files (and avoid
> confusing the reader of your code).
What bothers me, is the fact that you would so blatantly HACK, and even
admit to it, and stand by it!
It worries me to think what else you've hacked into Euphoria.
Hacks lead to more hacks.
It also worries me to think you beleive that renaming 3rd party files is
a solution.
<SNIP>
Is there anyone who agrees with how euphoria deals with duplicate
includes?
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
13. RE: include statement bugs
Robert Craig wrote:
<SNIP>
> I consider this to be a tiny issue that affects maybe 1% or less
> of all programs.
I would think that has to do with the fact that Euphoria doesn't allow
us to. Obviously we aren't going to write broken programs, in the hopes
that you are going to change your mind.
> I think it took several years for anyone to
> even notice how it works.
Of course it did. I'm sure Euphoria didn't begin with 1,000
contributions.
<SNIP>
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
14. RE: include statement bugs
Chris Bensler wrote:
> Is there anyone who agrees with how euphoria deals with duplicate
> includes?
Since files of the same name in different directories are NOT considered
the same file by any operating system I know of, why should Euphoria
ignore the differences?
Irv
15. RE: include statement bugs
Chris Bensler wrote:
> It also worries me to think you beleive that renaming 3rd party files is
> a solution.
What worries me is that I've seen this sort of 'solution' to various
problems so often in the past. It's as if Rob is wearing some kind of
blinders which keep him from ever seeing anything in its entirety.
The potential problems involved with renaming files (especially 3rd.
party files) should be obvious to any reasonably experienced programmer.
Likewise, take a look at namespacing. After a huge amount of
discussion, we have a partial solution, but other languages have done
it better, and are worth copying. RDS either doesn't see the need, or
doesn't know how to implement it.
How often have we read words such as 'no one will need to ...' or
'hardly anyone would use ...' (fill in the blanks)?
Its not an uncommon reply to people who *were* needing to ...,
or who *would* use ... , if the functionality existed.
Tunnel vision.
Irv
16. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Brian Broker <bkb at cnw.com>
Oct 18, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 19, 2004
I think the obvious solution here is to have Igor download every library
contribution in the archives and find any possible library naming
conflicts and then he can email the authors and make them change the
names of their libraries. He should also make a list of all the names
that are taken so we won't make this mistake in the future (but he
should still check every new submission, just in case).
He could take it a step further and make sure that there are no two
global functions/procedures/variables/constants with the same name...
then we won't have any namespacing issues at all! Simple, no?
-- Brian
17. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at nt.net>
Oct 18, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 19, 2004
Igor Kachan wrote:
>
>
> Mike Nelson wrote:
> ----------
> > Normally I side with Rob on this type of question. But here I must agree
> > with the critics. The assumption that c:\x\foo.e is the same file as
> > c:\y\foo.e would not be made by any OS or application, and Eu shouldn't
> > be doing it either. Changing the behavior as suggested won't break any
> > existing code and would facilitate good orgainzation of include files.
>
> The "good orgainzation of include files" is an issue of a taste.
> There are some programs in The Archive just to delete double files.
> The very useful tools, try them please. Work Ok for me.
>
> Then, I'd prefer to not confuse the file name and the full path to that
> file.
> File name is a copyrighted thing, but a full path is just yours taste
> thing.
>
> EUPHORIA works with the file names of our libs.
> It is good respect to authors of EU libs.
>
> > The suggestion that you just rename the files is fatuous.
>
> Ok, I like that yours "fatuous" without concrete yours receipt of what
> to
> do for Chris. If he wants these libs to work, there is only this
> "fatuous"
> way - to rename one of his libs.
>
> > Others have argued the case quite forcefully and I won't repeat the
> > arguments here.
> >
> > -- Mike Nelson
>
> Regards,
> Igor Kachan
> kinz at peterlink.ru
>
>
I have 250kb of Euphoira libraries, being readied as a new alternative
to RDS's standard libraries. I would like to be able to allow users to
use either one, or possibly BOTH at once.
My libraries use many of the same file names as RDS does, and for good
reason. I resent the opinion that I should have to rename all of my
meaningfully named files, just to accomodate your ignorance of the
problem.
Do you know what I can do instead?
I can simply not release my libraries. That saves everybody the headache
of dealing with filename conflicts.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
18. RE: include statement bugs
- Posted by Chris Bensler <bensler at nt.net>
Oct 18, 2004
-
Last edited Oct 19, 2004
Igor Kachan wrote:
<SNIP>
> Ok, I like that yours "fatuous" without concrete yours receipt of what
> to
> do for Chris. If he wants these libs to work, there is only this
> "fatuous"
> way - to rename one of his libs.
>
It is not MY problem. And as a matter of fact I deal with the problem of
filename clashing on a regular basis, with the nature of the code I'm
working on.
Because I use lib/foo, I manage to avoid the problem.
But the only reason that it works, is because of a 'bug' in euphoria.
When Rob fixes that bug, my code will be broken.
Renaming my files is NOT an option. Period.
The names I chose to use are chosen for reason.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
19. RE: include statement bugs
Igor Kachan wrote:
<SNIP>
> OK, it is great, but why do you think the standard RDS's libraries
> need a new alternative?
It's blatantly obvious that any explanation to you would be in vain.
<SNIP>
> OK, no problem. Add some letter to the name of standard RDS
> library. Me uses the 'r' letter - Russian, say, file___r.e
> instead of standard file.e.
> My file___r.e works in both Russian and English.
> Try please, it is in The Archive.
That means changing the filenames of your precious RDS include files.
> > My libraries use many of the same file names as RDS does,
> > and for good reason.
>
> What is that good reason to make any conflict with the
> standard copyrighted PD programming stuff, 11 years old,
> working without any problem for dozens thousands of users?
> Do you have any respect to those people?
Because backwards compatability is a detriment to the optimal progress.
Because the names are _meaningful_ . Because I CHOOSE to.
Because I'm not going to use obscure names, just because you are too
blind/stubborn to accept the fact that it's perfectly logical to have 2
files with the same name and different content and/or intent.
> > I resent the opinion that I should have to rename all of my
> > meaningfully named files, just to accomodate your ignorance of the
> > problem.
>
> Chris, you have to *name* yours libs *properly* and then
> you'll have no problem.
I DID name my files properly..
I use include statements such as std/util/file.e
and rds/file.e
The fact that RDS is too stupid to realize that it is a very useful
functionality, will be YOUR problem when Euphoria is fumbling with hack
solutions, and you have no choice but to live with it or pick up a new
language. You can rename all your files, I won't. That is perposterous.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
20. RE: include statement bugs
Igor Kachan wrote:
<SNIP>
> Ok, I am not a single reader of yours e-mails, maybe others
> want to see your explanations.
Most other readers are smart enough to know already, and those who
aren't, explanation won't help.
<SNIP>
> > That means changing the filenames of your precious RDS include files.
>
> These RDS include files are really precious, any EU user uses them.
>
> And I do not *change* the standard filenames.
>
> I just use the standard name as a part of a *new* name of
> my *new* include file. The standard filename and the standard
> library are untouchable.
>
> Is it clear? The simple thing, it seems to be, no?
> Maybe someone else can explain this trick to Chris?
>
It is the end user who has to deal with all_of_my_unique_file_names.e
*I* can manage *MY OWN* code perfectly fine.
<SNIP>
> > Because backwards compatability is a detriment to the optimal progress.
> > Because the names are _meaningful_ . Because I CHOOSE to.
> > Because I'm not going to use obscure names, just because you are too
> > blind/stubborn to accept the fact that it's perfectly logical to have 2
> > files with the same name and different content and/or intent.
>
> Ok, Ok, Ok, progress-shmogress, ok, but what about "any respect"?
> The simple thing too, I think, no?
Respect for whom? Respect for the people who are actually trying to
produce useful things and are trying to make Euphoria better for
everybody? Or do you mean respect for those people who are too ignorant
to accept change for the sake of improvement?
If you want to run legacy code, use a legacy version of the interpreter.
You don't force progress to be hindered because you are too
narrow-sighted to realize that THINGS CHANGE.
<SNIP>
> But what is a reason of your problems?
>
> Do you want to replace the standard RDS files with your own
> unknown for us files? Yes?
I didn't say anything about for you. I would be perfectly happy if
people like you continue worshipping RDS.
> And a good antibug EU resistance doesn't allow you to
> make this "buggy revolution"? Yes?
You have absolutely nothing to corraborate that accusation.
What I would LIKE to do and what I WILL do are two different things.
> Yes, I found some of your contributions buggy and
> crashed for me. Sorry, Chris ...
> Yes, you was out of town for a while... What can I do?
I have about 5 contributions left on the archives. I removed all of my
code.
What is left, is 1 hacked utility, an old set of generated libraries, an
old preprocessor designed for eu2.2, DAWG, and a structs library. None
of it has been supported by me in over 2 years.
And as far as I know DAWG and structs are still stable.
Again, your accusation is unfounded.
> Well, but EU standard libs never crash on my 5 different
> machines. From 386 mainframe to P4 1.8.
>
> Be careful, please, Chris.
> Do not make many noise around yours alternative to RDS libs.
> Let us know them first of all.
NO, I don't care to involve you in my project.
I'm glad to see some of the more astute individuals are already
discovering though.
<SNIP>
> You do not want new names for the new libs, but your reason
> seems to be not very good, sorry, sorry, sorry ...
My libs are not the problem, they are an EXAMPLE, just like johnny and
alfred. I have brought up this issue many years ago, and several times.
And RDS's answer has been pretty much the same each time.
> PS What is 'perposterous'? - I have
> no this rare word in my Muller's dictionary.
preposterous, absurd, rediculous, illogical, unreasonable
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=preposterous
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
21. RE: include statement bugs
Patrick Barnes wrote:
<SNIP>
> And Rob, you have this annoying habit of being a wallflower whenever a
> discussion comes up about the language itself. I know you are proud of
> Euphoria, and you have every right to be, but don't pretend that it's
> perfect, and that every action you have ever made regarding the
> language is correct. Please weigh in on this issue. Do *you* have any
> opinion regarding why it shouldn't be changed?
> --
> MrTrick
The reason he doesn't say anything is because he is waiting for everyone
to move on to the next topic, so it can be swept under the rug, like
every other issue raised.
He doesn't care what the people want. He just wants his vision of
euphoria, and the few quick bucks that he makes on the Eu products he
has created. Eu is his baby, and he doesn't want it to grow up.
He can't even be bothered to spend a few days compiling an FAQ with some
of his answers to some of the most common requests, and questions about
Euphoria, to save him endless hours and bickering in the future. Perhaps
that's business decision, or perhaps it's laziness, or perhaps it's lack
of ability, or perhaps it's lack of intelligence, I can't say which, But
in any case, I don't like what I see.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
22. RE: include statement bugs
Igor Kachan wrote:
<SNIP>
> More than 1300 now.
> The "library routines" section is not so big.
> Try please, the very interesting things.
The plethora of available contributions (yes I'm being sarcastic) should
be a HUGE indication of how successful euphoria is.
Consider what would happen if Euphoria ever became popular Igor.
How many contribution sare willing to be 'aware of', to be able to avoid
creating duplicate file names?
The fact that you are using Euphoria, and how it works NOW, works ok, is
not the point. How it will work in the future IS.
When there is 150,000 contribution in the archives, then you tell me,
that keeping unique filenames is even an consideratoin, nevermind a
choice.
When there is 500 or more websites, supporting Euphoria programmers,
then, you tell me, is unique filesnames a practical solution?
Get out of your frigging box, quit being so selfish, and listen to both
sides of the story. Yes I said selfish. I consider behaviour like yours
to be self-centered. You only care how Euphoria works for you, not how
it works for everyone else. YOu refuse to even acknowledge that there
might be a problem. Worse it appears you do know the problem, but would
rather HACK your way around it.
I HATE HACKS. They cause me endless hours of grief, that I could have
avoided by just not using those products in the first place.
Hacks lead to more hacks, and inevitably, *I* am the one who has to deal
with your laziness! Of course most people hack, but they do it knowing
full well, that they will have to fix it later. Not work around the damn
HACKS!
My goal is to make Euphoria a viable contender for other languages in
it's own league. Such as Pascal and PHP.
RDS is not going to let that happen though. The main reason I see why
they won't allow it to happen, is not for lack of foresight, but more
likely the opposite. Robert Craig knows that he cannot maintain Euphoria
at that kind of level by himself, and he refuses to accept help, even
FREE help dammit!
<SNIP>
> No, I do not. It seems, Chris are saying about stupidity.
> So, he is the most educated and very-very clever here.
> Isn't he? I do not think so, - that he is not.
There are many people much more intelligent than me, and I give them the
respect they deserve. However, people like Robert Craig deserve a swift
kick in the head. Maybe it would shake loose that tidbit of wisdom he
used to have.
<SNIP>
> > That does really come from the right person. (WARNING! SARCASM!)
>
> No, I am not perfect myself, if you are saying about me now.
> Without warning, please!
>
> > > But if the standard Euphoria is so bad, why he wants his own one
> > > in such unusual manner?
I'm sorry I mentioned my std library project, it was an EXAMPLE! God
dammit! I could care less if it's vaporware, and even a bad idea. It was
an EXAMPLE!
<SNIP>
> Ok, it is great, I like competition, but he doesn't
> say about competition.
> He just wanted replace the standard copyrighted PD stuff
> with some unknown stuff without any explanation,
> what is so bad in the old well tested libraries.
>
> Reread, please, this thread to be sure about his problem.
I never said any such thing, that I intend to 'replace' the RDS libs.
I have the authority to do that.!?
I said I am producing an alternative. There is a big difference there. I
said I would like it if people were able to use both at once if they
wanted. But I don't really care if they are compatible.
<SNIP>
> More than 1300 at all, but the specialized section
> is not that big. And it is the very interesting.
> If someone wants to be a writer of Euphoria
> libraries - that section is the exclusively interesting
> and rich on ideas.
1300? Other langauges have 130,000 or even 1,300,000.
PHP is half the age of Euphoria, and has at least 100x more source code
available for it.
<SNIP>
> > And Chris wanted to add a directory where a library is kept into the
> > filename. My euphoria\include directory is a mess right now, and that
> > would fix it, by keeping one library in one directory, effectively
> > organizing it.
Thankyou Alexander. You hit the nail on the head. It's not even about
the names of the files themselves. But about our ability to organize our
Euphoria source code more adequately.
The fact that we can't use duplicate names, and the fact that Euphoria
doesn't recognize paths, are the consequential flaws that bring the
issue to the table.
> No, it is not his problem.
YES, that IS my problem.
How many times do I have to say it Igor. My std libraries are an
EXAMPLE!
<SNIP>
> But c:\rds\file.e is copirighted standard library,
No it isn't. file.e is absolutely public domain. Do as you please.
You don't even have to give RDS any credit for using it, even if you
modify it.
> and c:\chris\file.e is unknow for now some Chris's
> or someone's else untested library.
>
> Chris says c:\rds\file.e is "crappy" but do not
> want to tell us why it is so bad.
Why should I waste my effort flogging a dead horse? It's quite obvious
that you aren't willing to change. Many people here are perfectly happy
with Euphoria how it is, and that is fine. But I for one, am NOT.
Anyone who is interested in Empire (or not) is welcome to post their
opinions on the Empire website. This isn't the place for it.
<SNIP>
> Yes I do, it is 11 years old well tested, well documented
> behaviour of interpreter, translator, binder
If its so well tested, and stable, why are there problem with it?
Why does 90% of the Euphoria commmunity agree that Euphoira should
recognize paths?
<SNIP>
> There are many different logics in the World.
> I prefer to not confuse two different file.e
> in any case, and absolutely do not want
> confuse copirighted well tested standard
> file.e with something else.
I don't see how you can confuse
chris\file.e
with
igor\file.e
Do you confuse your C:\ with your D:\ ? I hardly think so.
<SNIP>
> No, they are talking about libraries with strongly
> identical filename.
>
> There are no such the libraries - with identical filename.
> Only RDS file.e - old well tested, and some Chris' new
> file.e for which he wants some new Rob's interpreter,
> translator and so on.
rds has a library names file.e
I have a library named file.e
unkmar has a library named file.e
jason has a library named file.e
sounds like kat has her own too..
anybody else?
They are ALL DIFFERENT.
Those a REAL examples Igor.
<SNIP>
> > > Irv did not find the libs with the identical names in other
> > > languages for now.
> > > Let us see the reason if he finds one.
Show me when he said that.
I'd like to see a quote. I've been following this thread, and I don't
recall him mentioning anything of the sort.
<SNIP>
> > The reason isn't that there are libraries with identical names,
> > but there could be. Only wait a few years. Maybe there are 10000 user
> > contributions?
>
>
> Think, please, once more.
Think about what? Think about the fact that there has been an average of
less than 150 contributions to the Euphoria archives per year, in it's
10 year existence? That is pathetic.
You are right in a sense though Igor. As long as RDS is in control,
Euphoria will never have a serious problem with file name clashing.
For the effort required to fix the problem, we are probably all better
off to just rename our files. I highly doubt that the RDS Archives will
ever accumulate enough source code to be able to have a real problem
with it.
<SNIP>
> > > And his "perfect solution" is like to prison or such.
He was being sarcastic. Pointing out how rediculous you are making
yourself look.
<SNIP>
> > > Let us respect the Rob's intellectual rights on his Euphoria.
> > > He is the author of that excellent language.
> > > Life is life, no?
He gave up his rights when he made me pay for Euphoria.
Euphoria is not HIS. It's his consumers. WE are the ones PAYING HIM to
make the thing.
If he wants to give it away for free. He would have alot less problems
doing as he pleases.
Now *I* have the right to bitch and complain as much as I want.
I paid for that right. That is what support is about. And that is the
product I paid for. I paid for support of the language. Whether that
means I gave money to Rob so that he will continue work. Or whether that
means I paid for Euphoria, so I could tell him what an idiot I think he
is. I have paid for that right.
If you don't like it, too bad.
If RDS won't listen to his customers, he will find more people are
paying to bitch, than to actually support his efforts.
<SNIP>
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
23. RE: include statement bugs
Igor Kachan wrote:
<SNIP>
> OK, but this is not a real problem at all.
> There is no libraries in The Atchive with the identical names and never
> will, I think.
No, you are right, there never will. As long as Robert Craig is in
charge and listens to people like you.
<SNIP>
> Just Chris wanted such the feature for his strongly concrete purposes
> - first of all to replace the standard copyrighted stuff.
Again, it was an EXAMPLE! You do know what an example is, don't you!?
And you are miscontruing what I said.
> Remember please again, these standard libraries were *stamped* by RDS
> for a
> while. Then Rob deleted these encrypted stamps - you can see one of
> results
> now.
So what? What is your point? The stamps don't mean anything regarding
copyrights. The RDS public domain source files are 100% public domain.
<SNIP>
> If and if and if and if .....
Is that your best rebuttal?
<SNIP>
> If and if and if and if ....
You are very good at that. Do you tend to be just as repetitive in your
code? From opinions you are making, it surely sounds like a very
accurate comparison.
<SNIP>
> Yes, Rob hardly knows his responsibility for Euphoria and protects
> his own intellectual and material rights as a real expert and excellent
> master, I think.
Robert Craig is an idiot. 4 years ago, when I was ignorant and naive, I
would have said differently.
<SNIP>
> > >3. It makes using third-party libraries more difficult.
>
> No, there is no such the third-party libraries at all.
> You have nothing to use this way.
It's very apparent, how little you understanding about productive
programming.
<SNIP>
> No one is going to create the libraries with the identical names now.
That is naive and ignorant. You seem to think we all have extra sensory
perception.
> Let us wait and see some forked examples.
What forked exmaples? Who says I'll be showing you anything?
*I*ve been using my Empire libraries for several years already.
I'm not about to spend all my effort FIGHTING against people like you
and Robert Craig, just so I can GIVE YOU and HIM years worth of my work.
<SNIP>
<SNIP>
> Let us respect the Rob's intellectual rights on his Euphoria.
> He is the author of that excellent language.
> Life is life, no?
If Robert Craig had any intelligence, I would respect it.
<SNIP>
> I just do not like if some too clever boy returns from the vacation and
> says - all around is shit, crap, shitty crap, crappy shit, I'll replace
> all that just now with my own big one, but only under YOURS NAME,
> hurry up Rob, implement this for me just now, I love your Euphoria
> more than you do love, stupid Rob.
I didn't go on vacation, I LEFT. I left because of ignorance and sheer
stubborness of people like you and Robert Craig.
And I didn't come back to make friends either.
(thanks though Ray Smith for the wb)
I am back with a vengeance. If you think you don't like me now, just
wait a few more weeks.
> And this too clever boy just forgot his naive questions to this
> list years ago.
> Good behaviour of grateful and thankful apprentice, no?
Apprentice to whom? To you? I don't think so.
Perhaps apprentice to Derek Parnell, and Matt Lewis, and David Cuny, and
Everett Williams, to name a few. And they all get my respect.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
24. RE: include statement bugs
Igor Kachan wrote:
>
>
> Chris Bensler wrote:
>
> Igor Kachan wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> [OT snipped]
>
> > > No, I do not. It seems, Chris are saying about stupidity.
> > > So, he is the most educated and very-very clever here.
> > > Isn't he? I do not think so, - that he is not.
> >
> > There are many people much more intelligent than me, and I give them the
> > respect they deserve. However, people like Robert Craig deserve a swift
> > kick in the head. Maybe it would shake loose that tidbit of wisdom he
> > used to have.
>
> All people have strongly identical rights on respectation.
> Is it a big news for you?
>
> [old stuff snipped]
>
> > I'm sorry I mentioned my std library project, it was an EXAMPLE! God
> > dammit! I could care less if it's vaporware, and even a bad idea.
> > It was an EXAMPLE!
>
>
> I do not see a problem here.
>
>
> > > Ok, it is great, I like competition, but he doesn't
> > > say about competition.
> > > He just wanted replace the standard copyrighted PD stuff
> > > with some unknown stuff without any explanation,
> > > what is so bad in the old well tested libraries.
> > >
> > > Reread, please, this thread to be sure about his problem.
> >
> > I never said any such thing, that I intend to 'replace' the RDS libs.
> > I have the authority to do that.!?
> > I said I am producing an alternative. There is a big difference there. I
> > said I would like it if people were able to use both at once if they
> > wanted. But I don't really care if they are compatible.
> >
> >
> > <SNIP>
> >
> >
> > > More than 1300 at all, but the specialized section
> > > is not that big. And it is the very interesting.
> > > If someone wants to be a writer of Euphoria
> > > libraries - that section is the exclusively interesting
> > > and rich on ideas.
> >
> > 1300? Other langauges have 130,000 or even 1,300,000.
> > PHP is half the age of Euphoria, and has at least 100x more source code
> > available for it.
>
> Use PHP please, what a problem?
>
> Do you program an application for Euphoria, or Euphoria itself?
>
> If you want program Euphoria itself, pay for source code and
> program all you want accordingly to licence.
>
> 2.5 will have 100% Euphoria front-end blok just for such
> unusual ideas like extremely rare using of different
> libraries with duplicated names.
>
> [old stuff snipped]
>
> > Thankyou Alexander. You hit the nail on the head. It's not even about
> > the names of the files themselves. But about our ability to organize our
> > Euphoria source code more adequately.
> > The fact that we can't use duplicate names, and the fact that Euphoria
> > doesn't recognize paths, are the consequential flaws that bring the
> > issue to the table.
> >
> >
> > > No, it is not his problem.
> >
> >
> > YES, that IS my problem.
> > How many times do I have to say it Igor. My std libraries are an
> > EXAMPLE!
>
> See, please, the subject of this thread once more.
> Chris, Euphoria does recognize paths very well and does the things
> as it is documented.
> >From any valid path it only uses the most important, almost
> always copyrighted part - own name of the included library.
> And doesn't include the second library with same name.
>
> What about apologies for RDS and Robert H. Craig personally?
>
> > > But c:\rds\file.e is copirighted standard library,
> >
> >
> > No it isn't. file.e is absolutely public domain. Do as you please.
> > You don't even have to give RDS any credit for using it, even if you
> > modify it.
>
> It is copyrighted as Public Domain by RDS.
>
> RDS allows to give credit or not, it is RDS' right.
>
> But I do not think someone does like insultings
> for his Public Domain + excellent production.
>
> You must go away with thanks or silently, if you do not
> like free fish & chips.
>
> Is it a big news for you?
>
> What about apologies for RDS and Robert H. Craig personally?
>
> > > and c:\chris\file.e is unknow for now some Chris's
> > > or someone's else untested library.
> > >
<snip>
I'm just going to do like Derek says he does, and ignore you.
This discussion is not goin anywhere.
I don't feel I owe RDS an apology, until Robert Craig recognizes the
needs of his Euphoria community. Not MY needs. Just because I may
address an issue, does not make it MY issue.
Enough said. End of discussion.
Chris Bensler
Code is Alchemy
