OpenEuphoria

1. Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Tommy Carlier <tommy.carlier at telenet.be> Jul 23, 2005
• 601 views

I've created a message board on UBoard specifically for ESL. I know
Juergen suggested such a message board, and I think it's a good idea.
Juergen (or anybody else), if you want to become moderator of the board,
just send me an e-mail.

I looked at Juergen web pages about ESL, and I have a small suggestion:
the guidelines tell us that it's better not to use abbreviations, but in
the math-page I see types like 'positive_int'. Wouldn't it be better to
use the full 'integer'-name?
 atom -> positive_atom; integer -> positive_integer

--
The Internet combines the excitement of typing 
with the reliability of anonymous hearsay.

tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com

3. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Tommy Carlier <tommy.carlier at telenet.be> Jul 23, 2005
• 569 views

don cole wrote:
> What's the UBoard?

UBoard is a Euphoria forum, created a while back by William Heimbigner.
You can find it at http://uboard.proboards32.com
It's not meant to replace the mailing list, but to add value to it.
The posts are organized in categories, and it has pretty nice functions
like polls.

Right now, it has about 63 members, but there haven't been a lot of posts
lately. I'm one of the administrators, and I try to maintain it as well
as possible. I try to provide extra info about each category, like links
to other websites and articles about the topic.

If you have suggestions for UBoard, just send me an e-mail.

--
The Internet combines the excitement of typing 
with the reliability of anonymous hearsay.

tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com

5. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Tommy Carlier <tommy.carlier at telenet.be> Jul 23, 2005
• 565 views

don cole wrote:
> Oh Yeah, I've been there before but didn't know what it was called.
> I believe William Heimbigner was 14 years old when he started that board.
> Smart kid.

Yes, he is. He's full of ideas, and he likes exploring. The last time I
talked to him (MSN Messenger), he was programming in assembly code.
Reminds me of myself when I was that age.

--
The Internet combines the excitement of typing 
with the reliability of anonymous hearsay.

tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com

7. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Tommy Carlier <tommy.carlier at telenet.be> Jul 24, 2005
• 590 views

Juergen Luethje wrote:
> I also think it's a good idea, for people who like to communicate on web
> forums. So thank you for supporting the ESL project!
> 
> I personally would highly prefer that we send e-mails, using the CC
> feature, for internal discussions. I think my e-mail provider even
> allows me to set up a mailing-list. So if we actually want to have an
> ESL mailing-list, I'll try to create it.
> 
> When there is substantial discussion on UBoard, we'll have to find a way
> how that stuff is included in the ESL papers:
> 
> a) Maybe someone posts a summary here on EUforum, so that I can do so.
>                 or
> b) probably better: Someone else will maintain the ESL papers.
>    1) We'll put the papers on a different website.
>                 or
>    2) The papers will stay where they are. Someone sends me the updated
>       HTML file(s), and I'll just upload them on my website.
> 
> Everything will be OK for me, except expecting me to participate in web
> forum discussions.

I agree, but the UBoard has some advantages: different topics can be
discussed in separate threads, all the posts are easily accessible
for everyone to read, and voting about a topic can be made easy via
the polling functionality UBoard offers.

> > I looked at Juergen web pages about ESL, and I have a small suggestion:
> > the guidelines tell us that it's better not to use abbreviations, but in
> > the math-page I see types like 'positive_int'. Wouldn't it be better to
> > use the full 'integer'-name?
> >  atom -> positive_atom; integer -> positive_integer
> 
> I'll soon change the file 'math.htm' accordingly (hoping this is OK for
> everyone).
> 
> I just want to mention that on the other hand, the module 'math.e' will
> contain several abbreviated routine names anyway;
>    ceil[ing]()
>    abs[olute value]()
>    min[imum]()
>    max[imum]()
>    log[arithm base]10()
>    sin[us]h[yperbolicus]()
>    ...
> 
> These abbreviations are standard math names, so we actually should use
> them. I just want to say that, if there is a good reason, we should
> consider using an abbreviation. One reason IMHO is, when the original
> name is very long.

You're right about that one. These abbreviations don't bother me, because
everybody uses them. And 'positive_int' wouldn't bother me if the integer-
type would be called 'int' in Euphoria. I just think it's a good idea to
have consistent naming conventions.

Here are some more suggestions I have for ESL:
- the constants TRUE and FALSE
- bitwise functions
- a mechanism to ignore return-values of functions. Some options:
  -> a global variable VOID: VOID = functionToIgnore(...) (like Win32Lib)
-> a procedure ignore that does nothing: ignore(functionToIgnore()) (like
  Win4Eu)
- an enumeration-mechanism: here's how it was done in Win4Eu:
 

constant DAY_OF_WEEK = enum()
  constant MONDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
           TUESDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
           WEDNESDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
           THURSDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
           FRIDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
           SATURDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
           SUNDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK)
  

- advanced C/API-interface functionality (WIN32/LINUX)

--
The Internet combines the excitement of typing 
with the reliability of anonymous hearsay.

tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com

9. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Tommy Carlier <tommy.carlier at telenet.be> Jul 24, 2005
• 561 views

Juergen Luethje wrote:
> I'm sorry, it seems that I expressed myself unclear. I know how UBoard
> works, and I know how other webforums work. I did not and do not want to
> discuss about the pros and cons of UBoard or of webforums in general.
> 
> I was talking about __my personal__ preferences. Quoting from a previous
> post of mine:
> | Using any web forum -- this is not limited  to a specific forum -- is
> | for me personally about 5 to 10 times more complicated than using
> | e-mail. And so it takes much longer for me, and I really don't like web
> | forums.
> 
> I could now explain to you the reasons why. But this would cost me a
> considerable amount of time, and also I think that it should not be
> necessary. I just expect people to accept it. I actually feel free to
> use only tools that work efficiently __for me__.

Of course you're right. I didn't mean to force the UBoard onto you or
anybody else.

--
The Internet combines the excitement of typing 
with the reliability of anonymous hearsay.

tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com

11. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by "Juergen Luethje" <j.lue at gmx.de> Jul 24, 2005
• 587 views

D. Newhall wrote:

> Juergen Luethje wrote:
>
> snip
>
>
>> I personally would highly prefer that we send e-mails, using the CC
>> feature, for internal discussions. I think my e-mail provider even
>> allows me to set up a mailing-list. So if we actually want to have an
>> ESL mailing-list, I'll try to create it.
>>
>> When there is substantial discussion on UBoard, we'll have to find a way
>> how that stuff is included in the ESL papers:
>>
>> a) Maybe someone posts a summary here on EUforum, so that I can do so.
>>                 or
>> b) probably better: Someone else will maintain the ESL papers.
>>    1) We'll put the papers on a different website.
>>                 or
>>    2) The papers will stay where they are. Someone sends me the updated
>>       HTML file(s), and I'll just upload them on my website.
>>
>> Everything will be OK for me, except expecting me to participate in web
>> forum discussions.
>
> The reason I like the forum idea is because simple comments on files
> can be made easily whereas with email or a mailing list every 1-2 line
> response has to get sent to the person's mailbox. Would you rather see
> all responses in one place or wade through emails trying to figure out
> which response goes with which message. Plus, we can also do voting
> much easier than through email (IMHO).

I know that many people like (and use) web forums. It's just that all
the things you mention above will happen without me. That's absolutely
OK for me. But then someone else probably should maintain the papers.

> The other thing I think that might be useful would be a wiki since that
> would make it easier to change the specifications but would probably
> open up a large number of other problems.

I like the wiki idea. But I don't know how much work it is to create one,
who is able and willing to do so, and what problems it would open up.

>>> I looked at Juergen web pages about ESL, and I have a small suggestion:
>>> the guidelines tell us that it's better not to use abbreviations, but in
>>> the math-page I see types like 'positive_int'. Wouldn't it be better to
>>> use the full 'integer'-name?
>>>  atom -> positive_atom; integer -> positive_integer
>>
>> I'll soon change the file 'math.htm' accordingly (hoping this is OK for
>> everyone).
> Yeah, we probably shouldn't abreviate it. Although, I am partial to
> using "cardinal" instead (probably a hold over from Modula-2
> programming).

"positive_integer" is more consistant with the names of the other
numeric types than "cardinal".

<snip>

Regards,
   Juergen

13. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Jason Gade <jaygade at gmail.com> Jul 25, 2005
• 559 views

Tommy Carlier wrote:
> 
> 
> posted by: Tommy Carlier <tommy.carlier at telenet.be>
> 
> Juergen Luethje wrote:
> 
>>I also think it's a good idea, for people who like to communicate on web
>>forums. So thank you for supporting the ESL project!
>>
>>I personally would highly prefer that we send e-mails, using the CC
>>feature, for internal discussions. I think my e-mail provider even
>>allows me to set up a mailing-list. So if we actually want to have an
>>ESL mailing-list, I'll try to create it.
>>
>>When there is substantial discussion on UBoard, we'll have to find a way
>>how that stuff is included in the ESL papers:
>>
>>a) Maybe someone posts a summary here on EUforum, so that I can do so.
>>                or
>>b) probably better: Someone else will maintain the ESL papers.
>>   1) We'll put the papers on a different website.
>>                or
>>   2) The papers will stay where they are. Someone sends me the updated
>>      HTML file(s), and I'll just upload them on my website.
>>
>>Everything will be OK for me, except expecting me to participate in web
>>forum discussions.
> 
> 
> I agree, but the UBoard has some advantages: different topics can be
> discussed in separate threads, all the posts are easily accessible
> for everyone to read, and voting about a topic can be made easy via
> the polling functionality UBoard offers.
> 
> 
>>>I looked at Juergen web pages about ESL, and I have a small suggestion:
>>>the guidelines tell us that it's better not to use abbreviations, but in
>>>the math-page I see types like 'positive_int'. Wouldn't it be better to
>>>use the full 'integer'-name?
>>> atom -> positive_atom; integer -> positive_integer
>>
>>I'll soon change the file 'math.htm' accordingly (hoping this is OK for
>>everyone).
>>
>>I just want to mention that on the other hand, the module 'math.e' will
>>contain several abbreviated routine names anyway;
>>   ceil[ing]()
>>   abs[olute value]()
>>   min[imum]()
>>   max[imum]()
>>   log[arithm base]10()
>>   sin[us]h[yperbolicus]()
>>   ...
>>
>>These abbreviations are standard math names, so we actually should use
>>them. I just want to say that, if there is a good reason, we should
>>consider using an abbreviation. One reason IMHO is, when the original
>>name is very long.
> 
> 
> You're right about that one. These abbreviations don't bother me, because
> everybody uses them. And 'positive_int' wouldn't bother me if the integer-
> type would be called 'int' in Euphoria. I just think it's a good idea to
> have consistent naming conventions.
> 
> Here are some more suggestions I have for ESL:
> - the constants TRUE and FALSE
> - bitwise functions
> - a mechanism to ignore return-values of functions. Some options:
>   -> a global variable VOID: VOID = functionToIgnore(...) (like Win32Lib)
>   -> a procedure ignore that does nothing: ignore(functionToIgnore()) (like
>   Win4Eu)
> - an enumeration-mechanism: here's how it was done in Win4Eu:
>   }}}
<eucode>
>   constant DAY_OF_WEEK = enum()
>   constant MONDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
>            TUESDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
>            WEDNESDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
>            THURSDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
>            FRIDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
>            SATURDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK),
>            SUNDAY = next(DAY_OF_WEEK)
>   </eucode>
{{{

> - advanced C/API-interface functionality (WIN32/LINUX)
> 
> --
> The Internet combines the excitement of typing 
> with the reliability of anonymous hearsay.
> 
> tommy online: http://users.telenet.be/tommycarlier
> tommy.blog: http://tommycarlier.blogspot.com

I may not have advocated it much, but an enumeration facility in 
Euphoria is a feature that I would like very much. With the current way 
of defining structures in Euphoria it would be greatly appreciated 
instead of defining constants for everything.

-- 
==============================
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
j.

15. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by "Juergen Luethje" <j.lue at gmx.de> Jul 25, 2005
• 566 views

Jason Gade wrote:

> Juergen Luethje wrote:

<snip>

>> I think my e-mail provider even
>> allows me to set up a mailing-list. So if we actually want to have an
>> ESL mailing-list, I'll try to create it.
>
> This is a good idea; I wish that Euphoria had a *real* mail-list like it
> used to.  I admit that I like the EUforum web forum, though.
>
> At work I use the web interface; at home I use Thunderbird/GMail.  But
> when Topica fails then things get out of sync.  Does anyone still use
> the Topica web interface?  It would be good to have a mailserver for
> email use and still use the web interface of EUforum.

I was thinking of a small ESL mailing-list with a maximum of say 20-30
participants.  I don't think I can set up an Euphoria mailing-list
with about 400 members. However, I'll look more closely into it.

<snip>

Regards,
   Juergen

17. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by "Juergen Luethje" <j.lue at gmx.de> Jul 25, 2005
• 579 views

Matt Lewis wrote:

> Juergen Luethje wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking of a small ESL mailing-list with a maximum of say 20-30
>> participants.  I don't think I can set up an Euphoria mailing-list
>> with about 400 members. However, I'll look more closely into it.

In the meantime, I've read the docs of my e-mail provider, and now I
know what the problem is: All subscribing and unsubscribing for any
member must be done by me manually. I certainly do not want to do so
for 400 members.

> If you set it up on Sourceforge, you can set up a mailing list hosted by
> Sourceforge.

Ah, thanks for the info.

What do other people (especially Christian, Jason, Derek, and Gordon)
think about setting up ESL on Sourceforge?
Christian, the old standard library page on Sourceforge has completely
vanished, hasn't it?

Regards,
   Juergen

19. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by D. Newhall <derek_newhall at yahoo.com> Jul 25, 2005
• 580 views

Juergen Luethje wrote:
> 
> Matt Lewis wrote:
> 
> > Juergen Luethje wrote:
> >>
> >> I was thinking of a small ESL mailing-list with a maximum of say 20-30
> >> participants.  I don't think I can set up an Euphoria mailing-list
> >> with about 400 members. However, I'll look more closely into it.
> 
> In the meantime, I've read the docs of my e-mail provider, and now I
> know what the problem is: All subscribing and unsubscribing for any
> member must be done by me manually. I certainly do not want to do so
> for 400 members.
Yeah, but do you really think 400 people would sign up? I'd expect only around
20 probably.

> > If you set it up on Sourceforge, you can set up a mailing list hosted by
> > Sourceforge.
> 
> Ah, thanks for the info.
> 
> What do other people (especially Christian, Jason, Derek, and Gordon)
> think about setting up ESL on Sourceforge?
> Christian, the old standard library page on Sourceforge has completely
> vanished, hasn't it?
I have no problem with it. It could also be good for storing the files up there
and not having to worry about bandwidth issues.

Also, another small issue to discuss:

The filename for the proposed file "num_types.e" is 9 characters long and would
get truncated in DOS. Rename to numtypes.e? (or even numeric.e or number[s].e?)

21. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by "Juergen Luethje" <j.lue at gmx.de> Jul 25, 2005
• 540 views

D. Newhall wrote:

> Juergen Luethje wrote:
>>
>> Matt Lewis wrote:
>>
>>> Juergen Luethje wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking of a small ESL mailing-list with a maximum of say 20-30
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> participants.  I don't think I can set up an Euphoria mailing-list
                                                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> with about 400 members. However, I'll look more closely into it.
     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> In the meantime, I've read the docs of my e-mail provider, and now I
>> know what the problem is: All subscribing and unsubscribing for any
>> member must be done by me manually. I certainly do not want to do so
>> for 400 members.
>
> Yeah, but do you really think 400 people would sign up?

Previously someone had suggested to use that list for all EUforum
members (as replacement for Topica).

I just wanted to say then:
I'll offer this option for an ESL mailing-list (estimated 20-30 members),
but not for the whole EUforum (estimated 400 members).

> I'd expect only around 20 probably.
>
>>> If you set it up on Sourceforge, you can set up a mailing list hosted by
>>> Sourceforge.
>>
>> Ah, thanks for the info.
>>
>> What do other people (especially Christian, Jason, Derek, and Gordon)
>> think about setting up ESL on Sourceforge?
>> Christian, the old standard library page on Sourceforge has completely
>> vanished, hasn't it?
>
> I have no problem with it. It could also be good for storing the files
> up there and not having to worry about bandwidth issues.
>
> Also, another small issue to discuss:
>
> The filename for the proposed file "num_types.e" is 9 characters long
> and would get truncated in DOS. Rename to numtypes.e? (or even
> numeric.e or number[s].e?)

If nobody objects, I'll rename it to 'numtypes.e'. OK?

Regards,
   Juergen

23. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by D. Newhall <derek_newhall at yahoo.com> Jul 26, 2005
• 561 views

Juergen Luethje wrote:
> 
> OK, who is going to set up the project on SourceForge? 
> 
> Regards,
>    Juergen

I'll do it. Expect to see a URL for the project in the next few days.

25. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by "Juergen Luethje" <j.lue at gmx.de> Jul 28, 2005
• 596 views

Jason Gade wrote:

> Tommy Carlier wrote:
>
>> Here are some more suggestions I have for ESL:

<snip>

>> - an enumeration-mechanism: here's how it was done in Win4Eu:

<snip>

> I don't know if it can be avoided, but library functions probably should
> not keep state information; that is one thing I realized after
> advocating an error-handling mechanism. It is also something that I am
> considering in my foreach library which if it is not very simple would
> require the keeping of state information.
>
> If the ESL is to grow beyond the current Euphoria into a multi-threading
> version then keeping state information in library variables will be a
> last-resort mechanism because of race conditions and complications.

If we follow the rule "library functions should not keep state information",
then we can't implement any 'enum()' function. Is this right or wrong?

Regards,
   Juergen

27. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Jason Gade <jaygade at yahoo.com> Jul 28, 2005
• 550 views

Juergen Luethje wrote:
> 
> Jason Gade wrote:
> 
> > Tommy Carlier wrote:
> >
> >> Here are some more suggestions I have for ESL:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> >> - an enumeration-mechanism: here's how it was done in Win4Eu:
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > I don't know if it can be avoided, but library functions probably should
> > not keep state information; that is one thing I realized after
> > advocating an error-handling mechanism. It is also something that I am
> > considering in my foreach library which if it is not very simple would
> > require the keeping of state information.
> >
> > If the ESL is to grow beyond the current Euphoria into a multi-threading
> > version then keeping state information in library variables will be a
> > last-resort mechanism because of race conditions and complications.
> 
> If we follow the rule "library functions should not keep state information",
> then we can't implement any 'enum()' function. Is this right or wrong?
> 
> Regards,
>    Juergen
> 
> 

I think that is right; I also think that it would be difficult to implement a
string or structure library. At least the kinds of library that I am envisioning.

I don't know if we should make the rule "library functions should not keep state
information" but at least that it should be avoided when possible.


=====================================
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.

j.

29. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Jason Gade <jaygade at yahoo.com> Jul 28, 2005
• 560 views

Bernie Ryan wrote:
> 
> Alexander Toresson wrote:
> > 
> > Juergen Luethje wrote:
> > > 
> > > Jason Gade wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Tommy Carlier wrote:
> > > >
> 
> > Solution: create a mutex which is locked when enum() and the other functions
> > in enum.e
> 
> You already have a conflict with your standard Library
> if you enum() function because the global function exists
> in my libraries. So you better come up with a different name.  
> 
> Bernie
> 
> My files in archive:
> w32engin.ew mixedlib.e eu_engin.e win32eru.exw
> 
> Can be downloaded here:
> <a
> href="http://www.rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?dos=on&win=on&lnx=on&gen=on&keywords=bernie+ryan">http://www.rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?dos=on&win=on&lnx=on&gen=on&keywords=bernie+ryan</a>
> 

Whew, I really wanted to flame on when I read this, but I collected my thoughts
and will try to present them in a calm manner.

We are trying to come up with a so-called "standard" library.  Since there are
so many libraries and files in the archives, naming conflicts are going to
happen. How many times do 'TRUE', 'FALSE', and boolean() show up?

Maybe we'll call our function 'enumerate()' or
'next_in_a_list_of_unique_numbers()' or whatever. But if enum() is the best
choice, then we will use it. It's certainly better than asdf()!

Users will face a choice: use our library and not yours (or vice-versa) or
namespace one of the libraries.

Since the code in ESL will be public domain (or close to it) people could just
cut-and-paste if the file that includes enum() causes conflict.

Whatever.  No one owns the names, though. And we're a long way off from being an
official part of Euphoria.

=====================================
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.

j.

31. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Bernie Ryan <xotron at bluefrog.com> Jul 28, 2005
• 553 views

I been using Euphoria for over 5 years and have had to use
different names for my routines many times. I have respected
other users names and have had to use a different name.
I think that you will find that is why derrek started his
his present naming convention in the win32lib. When you and
and jason have written a lots of code to contribute to
the archive you will understand why it's not easy to come up
with different names and then to have to change them.
Why don't you prefix your routines as derrek does ?

  
Bernie

My files in archive:
w32engin.ew mixedlib.e eu_engin.e win32eru.exw

Can be downloaded here:
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?dos=on&win=on&lnx=on&gen=on&keywords=bernie+ryan

33. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Jul 28, 2005
• 546 views
• Last edited Jul 29, 2005

Bernie Ryan wrote:
> 
> 
> I been using Euphoria for over 5 years and have had to use
> different names for my routines many times. I have respected
> other users names and have had to use a different name.
> I think that you will find that is why derrek started his
> his present naming convention in the win32lib. When you and
> and jason have written a lots of code to contribute to
> the archive you will understand why it's not easy to come up
> with different names and then to have to change them.
> Why don't you prefix your routines as derrek does ?

NO! DO NOT DO WHAT I DID!

I renamed all the global stuff because I got annoyed with some joker who told me
off for using 'commonly used' names for the routines. It forced him to use name
spaces to disambiguate names already used by himself. So instead of doing the
rational thing of telling where to stick it, I hurt myself and others by renaming
everything. I was stupid.

Prefixing globals with a 'special' code is just a hard-coded namespace fix. It
helps no one in the long term.

For example, RDS has not prefixed its routines so why should we? If the name
fits then use it. If two names clash, use the namespace feature to resolve them.
If that does work (because of the stupid RDS implementation), then rename one of
them. If that doesn't work, then shout very loudly at RDS to fix the namespace
situation. But don't start dictating to other coders how they must name their
routines.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
Skype name: derek.j.parnell

35. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Robert Craig <rds at RapidEuphoria.com> Jul 29, 2005
• 554 views

irv mullins wrote:
> &gen
> Bernie Ryan wrote:
> > 
> > I been using Euphoria for over 5 years and have had to use
> > different names for my routines many times. I have respected
> > other users names and have had to use a different name.
> > I think that you will find that is why derrek started his
> > his present naming convention in the win32lib. When you and
> > and jason have written a lots of code to contribute to
> > the archive you will understand why it's not easy to come up
> > with different names and then to have to change them.
> > Why don't you prefix your routines as derrek does ?
> 
> Instead of asking all Euphoria users to 'prefix their routines', 
> why not ask RDS to improve namespacing so this isn't a problem?
> 
> Oh, nevermind. I guess I know the answer.

The Euphoria namespace feature does precisely what
is required in this situation. It gives you a way to specify
which global symbol you are referencing, in a situation where
there are multiple included files (usually by different authors)
that coincidentally contain symbols with the same name.
 
Regards,
   Rob Craig
   Rapid Deployment Software
   http://www.RapidEuphoria.com

37. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Jul 29, 2005
• 567 views

Robert Craig wrote:
> 
> irv mullins wrote:
> > &gen
> > Bernie Ryan wrote:
> > > 
> > > I been using Euphoria for over 5 years and have had to use
> > > different names for my routines many times. I have respected
> > > other users names and have had to use a different name.
> > > I think that you will find that is why derrek started his
> > > his present naming convention in the win32lib. When you and
> > > and jason have written a lots of code to contribute to
> > > the archive you will understand why it's not easy to come up
> > > with different names and then to have to change them.
> > > Why don't you prefix your routines as derrek does ?
> > 
> > Instead of asking all Euphoria users to 'prefix their routines', 
> > why not ask RDS to improve namespacing so this isn't a problem?
> > 
> > Oh, nevermind. I guess I know the answer.
> 
> The Euphoria namespace feature does precisely what
> is required in this situation. It gives you a way to specify
> which global symbol you are referencing, in a situation where
> there are multiple included files (usually by different authors)
> that coincidentally contain symbols with the same name.
>  
> Regards,
>    Rob Craig

Robert, I'm going to sound rude here, so please forgive me. But are you just not
listening to us?????? A number of times you have been told about the problem with
namespaces.

I repeat it yet again.

Here are five files. Please create them your self to see the effect.

-- file_a.e --
-- Author: Alice
global constant ABC = 1
-- end file_a.e --


-- file_b.e --
-- Author: Bob
include file_a.e  -- Use alice's library.
global function B(integer x)
   if x = ABC then
      return 2
   end if
   return 0
end function
-- end file_b.e --


-- file_c.ex --
-- Author: Carl
include file_b.e -- Use bob's library.
? B(3)
-- end file_c.ex --

Up to this point we have no issues. Now Carl wishes to use Eric's library too.
So file_c.ex gets updated to ...

-- file_c.ex --
-- Author: Carl
include file_b.e -- Use bob's library.
include file_e.e -- Use eric's library
? B(3)
? E(3)
-- end file_c.ex --

And eric's library looks like this ...

-- file_e.e --
-- Author: Eric
include file_d.e -- Use Daphne's library
global function E(integer x)
   return x >= ABC()
end function
-- end file_e.ex --

-- file_d.e --
-- Author: Daphne
global function ABC()
   if platform = 1 then
      return 0
   else
      return 4
   end if
end function
-- end file_d.e --

Now all of sudden, we see errors happening. But not in Carl's program but in
Eric's library!
Carl's program doesn't even use the ambiguous symbol causing the error. The only
way to 'fix' this is to have Carl go an change the source code of someone else's
library - assuming he has the clear-text source. And then repeat for every new
release of that library.

Euphoria should not be forcing me to change somebody else's code. Okay, so the
library writers could have used namepsaces and prefixed *EVERY* reference to a
global symbol with the respective namespace prefix. But how is that a labor
saving device? It is no better than hardcoding a prefix.

The best solution for your customers, would be to only scan through the include
tree that you are in. In other words, Eric's library knows nothing of Alice's
library and only of Daphne's, and likewise Bob's library knows nothing of
Daphne's and only of Alice's. So instead of lumping all the globals into the same
pot, just have Eric's code scan through the libraries it includes, and the same
with Bob's library. It just makes sense that way.

A coder should only have to use namespaces to resolve identifiers that they
actually use. If Carl had referenced 'ABC' in his code then he would need to
explcitly include the library that declares 'ABC' and use a namespace. This is
quite legitimate because it he only edits his own code and not somebody else's.

Don't you agree that a good programming language should be useful? Euphoria is
mostly useful, except for some really obvious areas that you can easily fix. And
this namespace issue is one of those low-hanging fruit.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
Skype name: derek.j.parnell

39. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by D. Newhall <derek_newhall at yahoo.com> Jul 29, 2005
• 566 views

Vincent wrote:
> 
> Matt Lewis wrote:
> > 
> > > > snipped
> > 
> > This mostly works.  Where it won't is if two multi-file libraries have 
> > conflicting symbols, and don't use namespaces internally, or if you have 
> > more complicated library dependencies that haven't used namespaces for
> > everything.  This is the situation the the proposed namespace change would 
> > have fixed, but didn't make it into 2.5.  For those who don't recall or 
> > weren't around at the time, see this thread:
> > 
> > <a
> > href="http://www.listfilter.com/cgi-bin/esearch.exu?thread=1&amp;fromMonth=6&amp;fromYear=8&amp;toMonth=8&amp;toYear=8&amp;keywords=%22another+look+at+namespaces%22">http://www.listfilter.com/cgi-bin/esearch.exu?thread=1&fromMonth=6&fromYear=8&toMonth=8&toYear=8&keywords=%22another+look+at+namespaces%22</a>
> > ..and this:
> > <a
> > href="http://www.listfilter.com/cgi-bin/esearch.exu?fromMonth=5&amp;fromYear=9&amp;toMonth=7&amp;toYear=9&amp;postedBy=robert+craig&amp;keywords=Namespaces">http://www.listfilter.com/cgi-bin/esearch.exu?fromMonth=5&fromYear=9&toMonth=7&toYear=9&postedBy=robert+craig&keywords=Namespaces</a>
> > 
> > ...or my modified interpreter:
> > <a
> > href="http://www.rapideuphoria.com/exm.zip">http://www.rapideuphoria.com/exm.zip</a>
> > 
> > Matt Lewis
> > 
> 
> This namespace problem is solved in my modified interpreter as well. What
> excuse does
> Rob have? I'd also like to suggest AGAIN that included files with identical
> names but
> "different" file paths, should NOT be treated the same. Fixing that would
> require only
> a small change in scanner.e to compare full file paths internally, not just
> relative
> file names.
> 
> Regards,
> Vincent
> 
Yes, this is probably the single most limiting feature of Euphoria (although Kat
swould say lack of GOTOs). It is fundamentally absurd to think that "include
file.e" and "include my_includes/file.e" are the same! What if you have 2
versions of a library and your current program uses its parsing functions, now in
the new version of the library the parsing functions are changed and made
incompatible with your program but you want the new GUI it gives you, what do you
do? You'd have to copy all the files over and figure out which files include
which other ones only to discover that they both use different versions of a file
that does file handling. You would be in a world of programming pain that could
result in you having to practically rewrite entire files of someone elses code
which could be completely avoided by treating files in different folders like
they are, which is as completely different files. Now if there was a solid reason
why this shouldn't be done I'd be OK with that but so far I don't think I've seen
a single program or library that relies on this behavior and it can be easily
fixed (in fact it's already been fixed in other peoples code).

The Euphoria Standard Library project :
    http://esl.sourceforge.net/
The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list :
    https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion

41. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Jul 30, 2005
• 539 views

Robert Craig wrote:

[snip]

> For the time being, I'd like to leave the namespace issue on the back burner
> ...

Robert, 
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. You waste too much of my time.

If anyone wants me to help with Win32lib, please email me. 

  ddparnell (at) bigpond (dot) com 

I'm out of here.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
Skype name: derek.j.parnell

43. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Robert Craig <rds at RapidEuphoria.com> Jul 31, 2005
• 585 views

Jason Gade wrote:
> Robert Craig wrote:
> <snip>
> > You and Matt seem to be talking about the same problem and same
> > proposed solution. As you might recall, I was initially enthusiastic
> > about the solution, but later when it came time to actually implement
> > it, I realized that there were a couple of negative aspects that I hadn't
> > really thought of when it was first discussed, so I put it aside.
> > 
> > On January 31, 2005 I wrote:
> > >
> > >   1. The change was going to add complexity and subtlety to
> > >      namespace rules that many people already had trouble
> > >      remembering.
> > >
> > >   2. After porting thousands of lines of C code to Euphoria 
> > >      (i.e. the front-end), I had a couple of nasty cases where I 
> > >      accidentally declared a global variable in two different files.
> > >      No error message was given, yet I was updating two different
> > >      variables, not one. It took a while to figure out what was 
> > >      happening. Since the proposed change to the namespace rules
> > >      would increase the chances of this sort of bug going
> > >      undetected, I considered that to be a negative thing,
> > >      that would partially offset the positive effect of fewer 
> > >      spurious error reports.
> 
> The interpreter or translator could issue a warning...

Yes, that could be useful.

Thanks,
   Rob Craig
   Rapid Deployment Software
   http://www.RapidEuphoria.com

45. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by Jason Gade <jaygade at gmail.com> Jul 31, 2005
• 556 views

don cole wrote:
> 
> 
> posted by: don cole <doncole at pacbell.net>
> 
> I would like like to see an ON feature similar to basic's.
> 
> Example:
> 
> a=find(something,mystuff)
> 
> on a procedure(wrapup{},closedown{},startup(),lookmore{},etc..)
> 
> Don Cole,
> SF
> 
> 
> 
> 

Can't you do something similar already?

-- untested
integer a

sequence routines routines = {
     routine_id("wrapup"),
     routine_id("closedown"),
     routine_id("startup"),
     routine_id("lookmore")}

call_proc(routines[a], {})

It could probably be made prettier and wrapped up, but...

-- 
==============================
Too many freaks, not enough circuses.
j.

47. Re: Euphoria Standard Library on UBoard

• Posted by don cole <doncole at pacbell.net> Aug 01, 2005
• 581 views

don cole wrote:

> Where did you get call_proc from?
> 
> Don Cole,
> SF
> 

Oh, never mind I was lookind in win32lib for it.


Don Cole,
SF