1. ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
Hello Everyone,
I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
ed.ex, or any modified version.
Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
to update ed.ex with features that make it more
powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
you like to see implemented?
Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
of Euphoria's power?
Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
respond to me directly if you wish.
Thanks,
Ken Rhodes
ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
2. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
I use a number of different editing tools depending on the task and environment.
I use ed.ex most often when programming DOS or includes on my laptop. I like it
as it is because of its simplicity (much like Euphoria itself). As useful as I
find Mike's Editor, and as comprehensive as Judith's IDE is, I think a standard
RDS version of ed.exw for Windows is a must (and not just a nice frame around a
DOS box, either).
For my paying job, I need tools and examples that I can rip apart and rebuild
into a more specialized form in about half an hour. I also have a boss that is
only beginning to acknowledge the power and efficiency of Euphoria (even though
he thinks the name is weird). A couple months ago I needed a viewer for
reformatted X12 (EDI) documents. With permission and guidance, I gratefully took
an existing editor from the archives and added the necessary changes. Due to the
complexity of the editor-in-question, there were some things that my boss wanted
to see that I couldn't give him in the time allowed. The viewer does its job
well for the time and money spent on it (virtually 0), and I am truly
appreciative of the help I received; but an ed.exw-based viewer could have more
easily pushed my boss's "WOW" button.
My nickel's worth,
Michael J. Sabal
>>> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com 11/30/01 02:57PM >>>
Hello Everyone,
I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
ed.ex, or any modified version.
Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
to update ed.ex with features that make it more
powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
you like to see implemented?
Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
of Euphoria's power?
Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
respond to me directly if you wish.
Thanks,
Ken Rhodes
ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
3. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
Amen. And it would be nice to have the win32lib words colored, and easily
updateable as new words come out.
Alvin
Homepage
http://ka9qlq.tripod.com/home/
Where I live.
http://ka9qlq.tripod.com/CCC/
----- Original Message -----
From: <Sabal.Mike at notations.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
I use a number of different editing tools depending on the task and
environment. I use ed.ex most often when programming DOS or includes on my
laptop. I like it as it is because of its simplicity (much like Euphoria
itself). As useful as I find Mike's Editor, and as comprehensive as
Judith's IDE is, I think a standard RDS version of ed.exw for Windows is a
must (and not just a nice frame around a DOS box, either).
For my paying job, I need tools and examples that I can rip apart and
rebuild into a more specialized form in about half an hour. I also have a
boss that is only beginning to acknowledge the power and efficiency of
Euphoria (even though he thinks the name is weird). A couple months ago I
needed a viewer for reformatted X12 (EDI) documents. With permission and
guidance, I gratefully took an existing editor from the archives and added
the necessary changes. Due to the complexity of the editor-in-question,
there were some things that my boss wanted to see that I couldn't give him
in the time allowed. The viewer does its job well for the time and money
spent on it (virtually 0), and I am truly appreciative of the help I
received; but an ed.exw-based viewer could have more easily pushed my boss's
"WOW" button.
My nickel's worth,
Michael J. Sabal
>>> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com 11/30/01 02:57PM >>>
Hello Everyone,
I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
ed.ex, or any modified version.
Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
to update ed.ex with features that make it more
powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
you like to see implemented?
Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
of Euphoria's power?
Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
respond to me directly if you wish.
Thanks,
Ken Rhodes
ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
4. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
why would he want to update it? it's not worth wasting his time cause nobody
is using it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> ed.ex, or any modified version.
>
> Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> you like to see implemented?
>
> Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> of Euphoria's power?
>
> Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
> respond to me directly if you wish.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Rhodes
> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
5. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
For what it's worth, I use two editors: Code Genie (www.code-genie.com) and
Ed4W (www.getsoft.com) . Both are commercial editors and both have excellect
features and support.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tone Skoda" <tone.skoda at zapo.net>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> why would he want to update it? it's not worth wasting his time cause
nobody
> is using it.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com>
> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:57 PM
> Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
>
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> > ed.ex, or any modified version.
> >
> > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> > to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> > you like to see implemented?
> >
> > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> > of Euphoria's power?
> >
> > Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
> > respond to me directly if you wish.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ken Rhodes
> > ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
6. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com
Nov 30, 2001
I am using it frequently. It's not perfect, but it works. The main reason
for using it is that it runs under DOS full screen, and I feel more
comfortable with a large screen and font. My eyes are not the same as many
years ago 
I'll point only to some inconsistencies and little problems:
1) Indentation is not very consistent. Procedures are indented differently
than functions at the very beginning. If you add "global", indentation
changes, too.
2) Adding "global" to a procedure or function hinders generating the end
procedure or end function.
3) When browsing a text in order to modify it, by means of the up-arrow or
down-arrow keys, the horizontal position of the cursor is not maintained,
but it skips to the beginning of the line. This slows work.
4) Some keywords are not highlighted (I remember profile_time)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:57 PM
Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> ed.ex, or any modified version.
>
> Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> you like to see implemented?
>
> Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> of Euphoria's power?
>
> Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
> respond to me directly if you wish.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Rhodes
> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
7. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
Hello Ken,
----------
> Îò: Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com>
> Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
> Òåìà: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
> Äàòà: Friday, November 30, 2001 22:57
> I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> ed.ex, or any modified version.
To program in Euphoria, I use only ed.ex.
It is on my taste.
The two changes I have made for myself - white strings,
not green, and then a low-frequency beep instead of
help-question after wrong key.
> Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> you like to see implemented?
This editor's main feature is open well commented source
- make all you want for yourself, and Rob makes all he
wants for himself and for us
> Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> of Euphoria's power?
To see Euphoria's editing power, there are many
other excellent editors written in Euphoria
by users - ee, Mike's, IDE ... on any taste.
<my thoughts>
I think, ed.ex editor is Rob's favourite hobby ...
Is it possible for Rob to have such
a little little hobby, I think ?
Yes, I think, yes, it is possible !!!!!
Why not, I think, why ?????
Or do you think Rob must only implement our
suggestions about ed.ex ?????
Freedom, liberty and independence for Rob
and his old good ed.ex !!!!! :-[
</my thoughts>
But if without jokes, this editor is very
good school and base to write the more complex
text editors with any very powerful features
for Euphoria programmers.
The first thing I had done in Euphoria were
the changes in ed.ex loaded in ed.ex, cool
for a new boy, no ?
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
8. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
Ken Rhodes wrote:
> I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> ed.ex, or any modified version.
Oddly enough, I use EE.EX.
> Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> you like to see implemented?
Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my
brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again.
The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first
learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt were
essential:
- Shift+Navigation keys for text selection
- Dropdown menus
- Mouse support
For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the key
sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra
thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a complete
newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more
unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut
text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code. And
when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the
formatting of my code.
I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED.
> Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> of Euphoria's power?
No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the
default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his best
interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible.
ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and
I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used ED
in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my
entirely unscientific usability test. I typed:
> ed
And was confronted with:
file name:
Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it
immediately tells me that it's different.
Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press Enter.
Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt.
Argh. I'm frustrated already.
So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to
get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually
hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line:
That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored.
Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have
to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time I
press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press
'ESC' to get out of the message.
Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have to
*guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a hint,
like:
That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n]
And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But it
doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n',
and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on the
top line.
I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to
read:
junk.ex Esc for commands
but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch
the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I
punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code.
No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu. I
have to stop and read the options:
help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR:
Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd'
option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me
back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does.
So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that
I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type the
expression:
for
and ED helpfully auto-completes it:
for = to by do
end for
and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't
recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going to
*beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I
want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip
past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type:
for i =
and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't,
and the text now looks like this:
for i
= to by do
end for
OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's
not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This is
certainly a weird behavior:
for i
to by do
end for
So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys
to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work. I
guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y,
and end up at the menu:
That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so I
press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my
code, it splits the screen and opens the help document:
F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands
This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I press
Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close...
F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc
Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and
magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm
back to this mess:
for i
to by do
end for
I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and:
for i to by do
end for
Excellent. I eventually type:
for i = 1 to 10 do
end for
and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not there...
oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and
it *beeps* at me:
junk.ex 2
syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable
print i
^
OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic
recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for
'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any
context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1. No,
nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'. I
get the prompt:
ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l):
OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah! It
returns me to the code.
I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me:
quit without saving changes?
Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around:
Save changes to untitled?
So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the editor.
ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike any
other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it was
called; it leaves a mess on the screen.
Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but
complaints from the folk who love vi.
-- David Cuny
9. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
I only use ed.ex to find where a failing line number is in my code (I use
WordPad to code with, not because it's good, just because I have it & can
copy/paste easily with it).
My $.02:
I think it's a very negative selling point for Euphoria that there isn't a
good Windows editor included as part of the package.
Dan Moyer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:57 AM
Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> ed.ex, or any modified version.
>
> Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> you like to see implemented?
>
> Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> of Euphoria's power?
>
> Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
> respond to me directly if you wish.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Rhodes
> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
10. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
Oh, yeah, now I remember, THAT'S approximately why I also don't use ed.ex!
And it was (unintentionally?) almost as funny as "How to Shoot Yourself in
the Foot Using Programming Languages"! :)
Dan Moyer
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> Ken Rhodes wrote:
>
> > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> > ed.ex, or any modified version.
>
> Oddly enough, I use EE.EX.
>
> > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> > to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> > you like to see implemented?
>
> Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my
> brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again.
>
> The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first
> learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt
were
> essential:
>
> - Shift+Navigation keys for text selection
> - Dropdown menus
> - Mouse support
>
> For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the
key
> sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra
> thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a
complete
> newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more
> unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut
> text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code.
And
> when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the
> formatting of my code.
>
> I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED.
>
> > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> > of Euphoria's power?
>
> No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the
> default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his
best
> interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible.
>
> ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and
> I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used
ED
> in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my
> entirely unscientific usability test. I typed:
>
> > ed
>
> And was confronted with:
>
> file name:
>
> Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it
> immediately tells me that it's different.
>
> Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press
Enter.
> Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt.
> Argh. I'm frustrated already.
>
> So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to
> get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually
> hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
>
> This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored.
> Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have
> to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time
I
> press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press
> 'ESC' to get out of the message.
>
> Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have
to
> *guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a
hint,
> like:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n]
>
> And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But
it
> doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n',
> and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on
the
> top line.
>
> I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to
> read:
>
> junk.ex Esc for commands
>
> but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch
> the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I
> punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code.
>
> No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu.
I
> have to stop and read the options:
>
> help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR:
>
> Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd'
> option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me
> back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does.
>
> So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that
> I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type
the
> expression:
>
> for
>
> and ED helpfully auto-completes it:
>
> for = to by do
> end for
>
> and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't
> recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going
to
> *beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I
> want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip
> past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type:
>
> for i =
>
> and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't,
> and the text now looks like this:
>
> for i
> = to by do
> end for
>
> OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's
> not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This
is
> certainly a weird behavior:
>
> for i
> to by do
> end for
>
> So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys
> to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work.
I
> guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y,
> and end up at the menu:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
>
> Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so
I
> press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my
> code, it splits the screen and opens the help document:
>
> F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands
>
> This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I
press
> Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close...
>
> F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc
>
> Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and
> magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm
> back to this mess:
>
> for i
> to by do
> end for
>
> I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and:
>
> for i to by do
> end for
>
> Excellent. I eventually type:
>
> for i = 1 to 10 do
> end for
>
> and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not
there...
> oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and
> it *beeps* at me:
>
> junk.ex 2
> syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable
> print i
> ^
>
> OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic
> recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for
> 'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any
> context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1.
No,
> nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'.
I
> get the prompt:
>
> ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l):
>
> OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah!
It
> returns me to the code.
>
> I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me:
>
> quit without saving changes?
>
> Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around:
>
> Save changes to untitled?
>
> So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the
editor.
> ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike
any
> other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it
was
> called; it leaves a mess on the screen.
>
> Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but
> complaints from the folk who love vi.
>
> -- David Cuny
>
>
>
>
11. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
I agree; if there would be no ED more newbie woulds stay with Euphoria.
Ed would be more easier to use if you would print all key commands on paper
and have it in front of you to look at. But who does that?
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> Ken Rhodes wrote:
>
> > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> > ed.ex, or any modified version.
>
> Oddly enough, I use EE.EX.
>
> > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> > to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> > you like to see implemented?
>
> Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my
> brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again.
>
> The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first
> learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt
were
> essential:
>
> - Shift+Navigation keys for text selection
> - Dropdown menus
> - Mouse support
>
> For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the
key
> sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra
> thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a
complete
> newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more
> unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut
> text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code.
And
> when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the
> formatting of my code.
>
> I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED.
>
> > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> > of Euphoria's power?
>
> No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the
> default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his
best
> interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible.
>
> ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and
> I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used
ED
> in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my
> entirely unscientific usability test. I typed:
>
> > ed
>
> And was confronted with:
>
> file name:
>
> Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it
> immediately tells me that it's different.
>
> Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press
Enter.
> Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt.
> Argh. I'm frustrated already.
>
> So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to
> get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually
> hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
>
> This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored.
> Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have
> to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time
I
> press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press
> 'ESC' to get out of the message.
>
> Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have
to
> *guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a
hint,
> like:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n]
>
> And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But
it
> doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n',
> and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on
the
> top line.
>
> I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to
> read:
>
> junk.ex Esc for commands
>
> but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch
> the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I
> punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code.
>
> No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu.
I
> have to stop and read the options:
>
> help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR:
>
> Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd'
> option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me
> back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does.
>
> So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that
> I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type
the
> expression:
>
> for
>
> and ED helpfully auto-completes it:
>
> for = to by do
> end for
>
> and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't
> recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going
to
> *beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I
> want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip
> past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type:
>
> for i =
>
> and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't,
> and the text now looks like this:
>
> for i
> = to by do
> end for
>
> OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's
> not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This
is
> certainly a weird behavior:
>
> for i
> to by do
> end for
>
> So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys
> to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work.
I
> guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y,
> and end up at the menu:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
>
> Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so
I
> press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my
> code, it splits the screen and opens the help document:
>
> F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands
>
> This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I
press
> Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close...
>
> F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc
>
> Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and
> magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm
> back to this mess:
>
> for i
> to by do
> end for
>
> I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and:
>
> for i to by do
> end for
>
> Excellent. I eventually type:
>
> for i = 1 to 10 do
> end for
>
> and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not
there...
> oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and
> it *beeps* at me:
>
> junk.ex 2
> syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable
> print i
> ^
>
> OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic
> recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for
> 'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any
> context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1.
No,
> nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'.
I
> get the prompt:
>
> ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l):
>
> OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah!
It
> returns me to the code.
>
> I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me:
>
> quit without saving changes?
>
> Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around:
>
> Save changes to untitled?
>
> So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the
editor.
> ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike
any
> other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it
was
> called; it leaves a mess on the screen.
>
> Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but
> complaints from the folk who love vi.
>
> -- David Cuny
>
>
>
>
12. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
I like ed.ex quite a lot and will continue to adapt it
for my needs.
Yet I must agree with many of the comments posted in
response to this survey...
I first downloaded a version of Euphoria from a local
bulletin board in maybe 94 or 95. It was described as
being a hobby language that was easier to use than
BASIC - that caught my eye! :) Well, basically i
couldn't get off the ground with it. And I think
frustrations with ed.ex then was the major problem.
When I finally got on the net I did a search to see if
the language had prospered. I found the Official
Euphoria Home Page. Maybe 4 or 5 user contributions
were listed at the bottom of the page then - I
remember Art's db enhancement to the Rob's demo was
posted.
So I downloaded Euphoria 1.3 I think it was and
persevered with ed.ex. Once I learned it, I really
liked it... but there was a learning curve. And I did
miss not having mouse support. I was very excited when
David Cuny posted ee and I began to use it. However,
now I found myself annoyed by not being able to view
at least portions of separate open files on the screen
at the same time. And although often there were
keystroke alternatives to drop down menu features, by
now I was accustomed to the ed.ex approach and did not
feel it was worth it to adapt to ee. EE is without
doubt an excellent editor - I think it did and still
does serve to illustrate Euphoria's power by giving
new user's a reference point of comparisom with the MS
DOS editor which so many people were familiar with.
So much for nostalgia. GUI applications are where its
at.
I believe that the editor bundled with Euphoria is by
far the most important factor in forming a first
impression upon new users. And new users at this
point in time virtually require a GUI editor.
I am rue to see RDS develop a Win32lib editor that
obviously would not run on LINUX.
Therefore, my hope is that David Cuny will prevail in
his intention to implement WxWindows for Euphoria. I
urge RDS to do everything possible to assist David
with that project.
My thinking of course is that an Euphoria WxWindows
library will allow RDS to write a cross platform GUI
editor. Right now ed.ex is the only Euphoria editor
that I am aware of that runs "as is" on Windows and
Linux.
Kenneth Rhodes
13. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
Well, honestly, I really enjoy it, the second time I used it =)
The first one as much of you was a nightmare, beepings from everywhere,
and tons of weird things as ESC + Q to quit.
Now, I made some modifications and I think it's very comfortable.
It's not for newbies, it's for a middle eu4 programmer that can edit
the source and adjust it as he likes.
My 0,000001$ cents.
Best regards,
Guillermo Bonvehi
--- Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> ed.ex, or any modified version.
>
> Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> you like to see implemented?
>
> Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> of Euphoria's power?
>
> Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to
> respond to me directly if you wish.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken Rhodes
> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
14. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
Ken Rhodes wrote:
> My thinking of course is that an Euphoria WxWindows
> library will allow RDS to write a cross platform GUI
> editor.
Yes, there is a free, lightweight editor called SciTE:
http://www.scintilla.org
(or just look at the pretty picture:)
http://www.scintilla.org/SciTEImage.html
It's cross-platform, and has even been used in commercial products. Robin
Dunn is in the process of wrapping it as a wxWindows control. Very cool
stuff.
-- David Cuny
15. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com
Dec 01, 2001
Yes, you are right, ed has many, many problems. But, according to what you
tell, it seems to me that ed was not only your first attempt to use
Euphoria, but the first one to use *any* program ;)
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> Ken Rhodes wrote:
>
> > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use
> > ed.ex, or any modified version.
>
> Oddly enough, I use EE.EX.
>
> > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort
> > to update ed.ex with features that make it more
> > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would
> > you like to see implemented?
>
> Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my
> brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again.
>
> The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first
> learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt
were
> essential:
>
> - Shift+Navigation keys for text selection
> - Dropdown menus
> - Mouse support
>
> For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the
key
> sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra
> thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a
complete
> newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more
> unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut
> text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code.
And
> when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the
> formatting of my code.
>
> I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED.
>
> > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance
> > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example
> > of Euphoria's power?
>
> No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the
> default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his
best
> interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible.
>
> ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and
> I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used
ED
> in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my
> entirely unscientific usability test. I typed:
>
> > ed
>
> And was confronted with:
>
> file name:
>
> Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it
> immediately tells me that it's different.
>
> Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press
Enter.
> Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt.
> Argh. I'm frustrated already.
>
> So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to
> get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually
> hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
>
> This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored.
> Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have
> to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time
I
> press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press
> 'ESC' to get out of the message.
>
> Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have
to
> *guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a
hint,
> like:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n]
>
> And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But
it
> doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n',
> and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on
the
> top line.
>
> I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to
> read:
>
> junk.ex Esc for commands
>
> but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch
> the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I
> punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code.
>
> No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu.
I
> have to stop and read the options:
>
> help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR:
>
> Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd'
> option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me
> back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does.
>
> So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that
> I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type
the
> expression:
>
> for
>
> and ED helpfully auto-completes it:
>
> for = to by do
> end for
>
> and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't
> recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going
to
> *beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I
> want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip
> past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type:
>
> for i =
>
> and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't,
> and the text now looks like this:
>
> for i
> = to by do
> end for
>
> OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's
> not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This
is
> certainly a weird behavior:
>
> for i
> to by do
> end for
>
> So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys
> to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work.
I
> guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y,
> and end up at the menu:
>
> That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file?
>
> Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so
I
> press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my
> code, it splits the screen and opens the help document:
>
> F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands
>
> This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I
press
> Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close...
>
> F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc
>
> Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and
> magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm
> back to this mess:
>
> for i
> to by do
> end for
>
> I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and:
>
> for i to by do
> end for
>
> Excellent. I eventually type:
>
> for i = 1 to 10 do
> end for
>
> and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not
there...
> oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and
> it *beeps* at me:
>
> junk.ex 2
> syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable
> print i
> ^
>
> OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic
> recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for
> 'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any
> context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1.
No,
> nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'.
I
> get the prompt:
>
> ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l):
>
> OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah!
It
> returns me to the code.
>
> I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me:
>
> quit without saving changes?
>
> Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around:
>
> Save changes to untitled?
>
> So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the
editor.
> ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike
any
> other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it
was
> called; it leaves a mess on the screen.
>
> Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but
> complaints from the folk who love vi.
>
> -- David Cuny
>
>
>
>
16. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
rforno wrote:
> Yes, you are right, ed has many, many problems. But, according
> to what you tell, it seems to me that ed was not only your first
> attempt to use Euphoria, but the first one to use *any* program ;)
No, sadly that was my actual experience using ED *last night*. I was
thinking that perhaps Robert had updated ED since my initial experience with
it, but that appears not to be the case.
Then again, I probably haven't patched EE to user normal time instead of
military time...
-- David Cuny
17. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
On 1 Dec 2001, at 12:27, David Cuny wrote:
>
> Ken Rhodes wrote:
>
> > My thinking of course is that an Euphoria WxWindows
> > library will allow RDS to write a cross platform GUI
> > editor.
>
> Yes, there is a free, lightweight editor called SciTE:
>
> http://www.scintilla.org
>
> (or just look at the pretty picture:)
>
> http://www.scintilla.org/SciTEImage.html
>
> It's cross-platform, and has even been used in commercial products. Robin
> Dunn is in the process of wrapping it as a wxWindows control. Very cool
> stuff.
How about http://www.libsdl.org/ ? This also does Apple Macs.
But anyhow, i still use TextPad, with ConText on the side, but unused so far.
I agree with the writings about RDS's Ed, if that is all i had to write Eu code
in, i'd have written next to nothing before giving up on Eu. I haven't tried
Judith's editor yet, i'm just waiting on bugs to be run off.
Kat
18. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com
Dec 02, 2001
David:
I don't understand your comment about military time
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
>
> rforno wrote:
>
> > Yes, you are right, ed has many, many problems. But, according
> > to what you tell, it seems to me that ed was not only your first
> > attempt to use Euphoria, but the first one to use *any* program ;)
>
> No, sadly that was my actual experience using ED *last night*. I was
> thinking that perhaps Robert had updated ED since my initial experience
with
> it, but that appears not to be the case.
>
> Then again, I probably haven't patched EE to user normal time instead of
> military time...
>
> -- David Cuny
>
>
>
>
19. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
rforno wrote:
> I don't understand your comment about military time
EE displays the hour in the range 0-23, instead of 1-12am/pm.
-- David Cuny
