1. RDS is hopeless
Well at least I know I wont be getting anything I asked for in the next release,
so I'm happily leaving for good. I still would of left even if Rob gave me the
features I asked for. Why?, because there is no future with Euphoria on Microsoft
Windows. The next version of Windows: Windows Vista, has a completely new
development platform based on .NET (WinFX), while the Win32 API will still be
supported (Win16 not supported), people will quickly see the advantages using
WinFX and stop using the Win32 coding base. By 2008, Microsoft expects that all
development revolving around Windows will be .NET based, and may remove Win32.
Sure there is Linux and BSD, but their markets are small compared to Windows. The
next generation of Windows is promised to be a big improvement over Windows XP in
every aspect (bigger than Win 3.1 to 95). Windows wont be so inferior to Linux
anymore. That will prevent Linux or BSD from ever dominating the desktop domain.
Microsoft's marketing is just to powerful against open source. I think Euphoria
will remain virtually unknown to Linux and BSD developers, thus little chance
with that either. Java and Mono (cross-platform .NET) along with C/C++ are really
the only contenders now and in the future, for those platforms.
There could be an Euphoria.NET, but it would have to become a full object
oriented language. It would become much like Visual Basic.NET or Delphi 8 (minus
some minor syntax, and keywords). I dont think Robert would EVER consider doing
that, I mean he isn't even considering a tiny namespace improvement. I probably
would still prefer C# over Euphoria.NET anyway, because of the support for
pointers and structures.
I believe the only way to go in the future is .NET and/or Java (I'm learning
both), regardless if your programming as a hobbiest or as a career. On Windows
you eventually wont have a choice, it will be either .NET or nothing. Nevermind
how expensive the Visual Studio IDE is, there is free open-source alternatives
like SharpDevelop, or Eclipse.
I'm kind of upset that I spent over $100 on RDS products that are
non-refundable. Robert: I still want that free upgrade to the v2.6 or v3.0 source
code, I may look at it more closely if you ever let go of that choke hold source
license.
Well anyway, I would just like to say goodbye, and maybe I'll see you all in the
Java and .NET world? or maybe just the Euphoria chatroom, where Euphoria is the
least talked about subject :P.
Goodbye,
Vincent
----------------------------------------------
___ __________ ___
/__/\ /__________\ |\ _\
\::\'\ //::::::::::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::|
\::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
\::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::|
\::\','/::/ |::| \::\\|::|
\::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::|
\::,::/ |::| \:::::|
\___/ |__| \____|
.``.
',,'
2. Re: RDS is hopeless
- Posted by Greg Haberek <ghaberek at gmail.com>
Aug 01, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 02, 2005
> Well anyway, I would just like to say goodbye, and maybe I'll see you all=
in the Java and .NET world? or maybe just the Euphoria chatroom, where Eup=
horia is the least talked about subject :P.
Sorry to see another good programmer abandon the Euphoria realm. I
guess I just don't understand it. I absolutely hate OOP and will
never, ever use it. I disgust Java and C# with a passion. They're
messy, cluttered, confusing and filled with overhead that I don't need
or want.
I've been talking with a few programmers at work, and they're actually
switching from Java and C++ to Euphoria. Whether or not anyone sees
that as being a "smart" move, I really don't care. Euphoria is an
excellent language, and is just as powerful as C (not C++ or C#),
which I'm sure millions of programmers still use. No, we don't have
threading, but I've yet to come across a scenerio where I really need
it. I've dabbled witht the LangWar scheduling library and it works
pretty well, and built into the Interpreter may work even better.
--------------------------------
This is directed towards anyone "leaving" Euphoria: If you don't like
the language, then don't use it. Its just that simple. Don't *demand*
features that Rob doesn't want, need, or use. Sure, you're a paying
customer, but you're paying for an existing product, not a future one.
I've used this analogy before: If you buy a Honda Civic, and it's not
fast enough for you, don't throw a fit and complain to Honda about how
it needs a turbocharger and all wheel drive and what not.
Just go buy a different car.
~Greg
(A faithful Euphorian for 5+ years)
3. Re: RDS is hopeless
- Posted by Euman <Euman at triad.rr.com>
Aug 01, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 02, 2005
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 11:39 -0700, Vincent wrote:
>
>
> posted by: Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
>
> Well at least I know I wont be getting anything I asked for in the next
> release, so I'm happily leaving for good.
Sorry to hear.
> I still would of left even if Rob gave me the features I asked for. Why?,
> because there is no future with Euphoria on Microsoft Windows.
This is very true because Microsoft will die sooner than later to linux.
> The next version of Windows: Windows Vista, has a completely new development
> platform based on .NET (WinFX), while the Win32 API will still be supported
> (Win16 not supported), people will quickly see the advantages using WinFX and
> stop using the Win32 coding base. By 2008, Microsoft expects that all development
> revolving around Windows will be .NET based, and may remove Win32.
I think we know who holds a crystal-ball now don't we?
> Sure there is Linux and BSD, but their markets are small compared to Windows.
lol, sure its for people like my grandmother who just cant seem to turn
the machine on but when its finally running I shouldn't mention when M$
Windows crashes but I will...
windows error is: "The mouse has moved. Please restart for the changes
to take effect." courtesy of a friend on the #euphoria channel
"good one Eulex" ;D
> The next generation of Windows is promised to be a big improvement over
> Windows XP in every aspect (bigger than Win 3.1 to 95).
yeah well, its all hype cause we heard that statement all too many times
from M$ Windows e.g; XP SP2 was supposed to give the end-users the
greatest security on the market.
This was the most "BS" I ever heard. and so it continues.
> Windows wont be so inferior to Linux anymore.
It will always be inferior, here's why, linux is open sourced and M$
isn't.
As soon as Vista comes out
(assuming they don't change the name 10 more times.)
It will encounter every single problem that exist currently on windows.
Think of it this way, its like hiding the keys to your home under the
welcome mat. It will be busted into, cracked, hacked and diced as it
always has been.
Sure, there will be improvements in the graphics I'm pretty sure
but if they think 'IPS' (if used) is going to give them better security
then they are mistaken..they might be able to thwart a script-kiddie for
a few days until a master writes the code to get in...(lol)
I'm rambling now..
> That will prevent Linux or BSD from ever dominating the desktop domain.
> Microsoft's marketing is just to p!
> owerful against open source.
Ok..I think Ive had enough of that putting my beloved Linux down..watch,
listen and learn my friend..Linux will rule sooner not later. Thus
M$ better hurry with Vista..
> I think Euphoria will remain virtually unknown to Linux and BSD developers,
> thus little chance with that either.
This I agree with, if Euphoria were open sourced then it would
(in my opinion) handle most of the administration and most system tools
with ease..A welcome to the Linux community Rob.
> Java and Mono (cross-platform .NET) along with C/C++ are really the only
> contenders now and in the future,
I wont go there..I'm just a stupid euphoria programmer I guess..
(as you see things)
> There could be an Euphoria.NET, but it would have to become a full object
> oriented language.
I'm content living w/o oop. While I do use application written in oop
languages I personally have no inclination to use it in my apps.
> I dont think Robert would EVER consider doing that, I mean he isn't even
> considering a tiny namespace improvement.
I'd like to know how you know what Rob thinks?
(this will open up a can of worms for sure)
> I believe the only way to go in the future is .NET and/or Java (I'm learning
> both),
crystal-balls actually work?
> On Windows you eventually wont have a choice, it will be either .NET or
> nothing.
shew, I better rush right over there and grab my copy..lol
yeah the M$ hook has been sunk and they're reeling you in.
"you big fish you.."
> Nevermind how expensive the Visual Studio IDE is, there is free open-source
> alternatives like SharpDevelop, or Eclipse.
lest not forget this people cause we are all going to be .net
programmers soon so make sure you bookmark this..
> I'm kind of upset that I spent over $100 on RDS products that are
> non-refundable.
I guess you are one of those people that wears an outfit one day then
takes it back to the store for an exchange..You ever get tired of that
not ever owning anything?
> Robert: I still want that free upgrade to the v2.6 or v3.0 source code,
heh, you might be a tad wish washy here.
> I may look at it more closely if you ever let go of that choke hold source
> license.
I think this is a fantastic idea...
It could make Rob very rich if done properly
but "could" and "will" are two very different things.
> Well anyway, I would just like to say goodbye,
l83r d00d.
> and maybe I'll see you all in the Java and .NET world?
not me.
> or maybe just the Euphoria chatroom, where Euphoria is the least talked about
> subject :P.
lol. you know that's where we Euphoria coders go to blow steam or talk
about Linux and how awful M$ is.
> Goodbye,
> Vincent
If it were really true, something tells me you are just confused right
now, you'll come back to earth eventually... :D
Euman
4. Re: RDS is hopeless
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Aug 01, 2005
-
Last edited Aug 02, 2005
Euman wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 11:39 -0700, Vincent wrote:
> >
> >
> > posted by: Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
> >
> > Well at least I know I wont be getting anything I asked for in the next
> > release, so I'm happily
> leaving for good. </font></i>
>
> Sorry to hear.
Me too.
>
> > I still would of left even if Rob gave me the features I asked for. Why?,
> > because there is no
> future with Euphoria on Microsoft Windows.</font></i>
>
> This is very true because Microsoft will die sooner than later to linux.
>
Wrong. Microsoft is a 500 billion dollar corporation, that is only getting
bigger. Microsoft is right up there in revenue with some powerful oil companies.
Microsoft is far more than the operating system buisness.
> > The next version of Windows: Windows Vista, has a completely new
> > development platform based
> on .NET (WinFX), while the Win32 API will still be supported (Win16 not
> supported), people will quickly see the advantages
> using WinFX and stop using the Win32 coding base. By 2008, Microsoft expects
> that all development revolving around Windows
> will be .NET based, and may remove Win32. </font></i>
>
> I think we know who holds a crystal-ball now don't we?
I hold it :D.
>
> > Sure there is Linux and BSD, but their markets are small compared to
> > Windows.
>
> lol, sure its for people like my grandmother who just cant seem to turn
> the machine on but when its finally running I shouldn't mention when M$
> Windows crashes but I will...
>
> windows error is: "The mouse has moved. Please restart for the changes
> to take effect." courtesy of a friend on the #euphoria channel
> "good one Eulex" ;D
Heh... you forgot about the "blue screen of death" The fact is I leave my
Windows XP SP2 machine on day and night for week or even months without a loss of
performance, or crashes. If you were to try that with Windows 95, uh-oh. You also
might want to keep in mind that there are WAY WAY WAY more grandmothers who cant
turn on their machines, than IT pros, and network administrators combined.
>
> > The next generation of Windows is promised to be a big improvement over
> > Windows XP in every
> aspect (bigger than Win 3.1 to 95).</font></i>
>
> yeah well, its all hype cause we heard that statement all too many times
> from M$ Windows e.g; XP SP2 was supposed to give the end-users the
> greatest security on the market.
> This was the most "BS" I ever heard. and so it continues.
>
> > Windows wont be so inferior to Linux anymore.
>
> It will always be inferior, here's why, linux is open sourced and M$
> isn't.
Hmm, well explain to me why it isnt successful on desktops. Micro$oft's
marketing right!!, why it wont be... Micro$oft's right!!!
>
> As soon as Vista comes out
> (assuming they don't change the name 10 more times.)
> It will encounter every single problem that exist currently on windows.
>
> Think of it this way, its like hiding the keys to your home under the
> welcome mat. It will be busted into, cracked, hacked and diced as it
> always has been.
>
> Sure, there will be improvements in the graphics I'm pretty sure
> but if they think 'IPS' (if used) is going to give them better security
> then they are mistaken..they might be able to thwart a script-kiddie for
> a few days until a master writes the code to get in...(lol)
> I'm rambling now..
>
Maybe, maybe not... either way though it wont affect me any, as I'm already well
prepared with my security software. Vista will come with some of its own too.
> > That will prevent Linux or BSD from ever dominating the desktop domain.
> > Microsoft's marketing
> is just to p!</font></i>
> > owerful against open source.
>
> Ok..I think Ive had enough of that putting my beloved Linux down..watch,
> listen and learn my friend..Linux will rule sooner not later. Thus
> M$ better hurry with Vista..
There is absolutely no indication of Linux creeping up on Microsoft. Just go buy
a new computer, and you will see exactly what I'm talking about.
>
> > I think Euphoria will remain virtually unknown to Linux and BSD developers,
> > thus little chance
> with that either. </font></i>
>
> This I agree with, if Euphoria were open sourced then it would
> (in my opinion) handle most of the administration and most system tools
> with ease..A welcome to the Linux community Rob.
>
I highly doubt Rob wants to let go of his precious angel: Euphoria.
> > Java and Mono (cross-platform .NET) along with C/C++ are really the only
> > contenders now and
> in the future, </font></i>
>
> I wont go there..I'm just a stupid euphoria programmer I guess..
> (as you see things)
No just a foolish one.. I guess I might want to get a job in the programming
field someday, I like to be prepared. It seems like EVERYONE is using Java or
.NET. Suprizing huh?
>
> > There could be an Euphoria.NET, but it would have to become a full object
> > oriented language.
>
> I'm content living w/o oop. While I do use application written in oop
> languages I personally have no inclination to use it in my apps.
>
I dont care much for OOP either.. but I wont have a choice if I want to stay
with Windows. If I went to Linux, I would just use Java.
>
> > I dont think Robert would EVER consider doing that, I mean he isn't even
> > considering a tiny
> namespace improvement. </font></i>
>
> I'd like to know how you know what Rob thinks?
>
> (this will open up a can of worms for sure)
>
It wont do anything. Robert doesnt care about what we want.
>
> > I believe the only way to go in the future is .NET and/or Java (I'm learning
> > both),
>
> crystal-balls actually work?
>
Euphoria works? Wooo dude...
>
> > On Windows you eventually wont have a choice, it will be either .NET or
> > nothing.
>
> shew, I better rush right over there and grab my copy..lol
> yeah the M$ hook has been sunk and they're reeling you in.
>
> "you big fish you.."
>
> > Nevermind how expensive the Visual Studio IDE is, there is free open-source
> > alternatives like
> SharpDevelop, or Eclipse.</font></i>
>
> lest not forget this people cause we are all going to be .net
> programmers soon so make sure you bookmark this..
Well if you want to develop on windows you will. But you dont want to so, no
worries for you. 
>
> > I'm kind of upset that I spent over $100 on RDS products that are
> > non-refundable.
>
> I guess you are one of those people that wears an outfit one day then
> takes it back to the store for an exchange..You ever get tired of that
> not ever owning anything?
>
> > Robert: I still want that free upgrade to the v2.6 or v3.0 source code,
>
> heh, you might be a tad wish washy here.
Not really, I want my moneys worth. Wouldnt you?
>
>
> > I may look at it more closely if you ever let go of that choke hold source
> > license.
>
> I think this is a fantastic idea...
> It could make Rob very rich if done properly
> but "could" and "will" are two very different things.
>
"Won't" is even closer.
> > Well anyway, I would just like to say goodbye,
>
> l83r d00d.
>
> > and maybe I'll see you all in the Java and .NET world?
>
> not me.
Oh thats too bad.
>
> > or maybe just the Euphoria chatroom, where Euphoria is the least talked
> > about subject :P.
>
> lol. you know that's where we Euphoria coders go to blow steam or talk
> about Linux and how awful M$ is.
LOL, I dont mind it really :P
>
> > Goodbye,
> > Vincent
>
> If it were really true, something tells me you are just confused right
> now, you'll come back to earth eventually... :D
>
If this is earth, I'll never come back to earth. 
> Euman
Regards,
Vincent
5. Re: RDS is hopeless
On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:39:47 -0400, Greg Haberek <ghaberek at gmail.com>
wrote:
>Just go buy a different car.
Well said. In my book it's fine to try and argue vociferously for a
feature you want, but whining on the way out... bad form.
Pete
6. Re: RDS is hopeless
Greg Haberek wrote:
>
> > Well anyway, I would just like to say goodbye, and maybe I'll see you all=
> in the Java and .NET world? or maybe just the Euphoria chatroom, where Eup=
> horia is the least talked about subject :P.
>
> Sorry to see another good programmer abandon the Euphoria realm.
>[snip]
> --------------------------------
>
> This is directed towards anyone "leaving" Euphoria: If you don't like
> the language, then don't use it. Its just that simple. Don't *demand*
> features that Rob doesn't want, need, or use. Sure, you're a paying
> customer, but you're paying for an existing product, not a future one.
>
> I've used this analogy before: If you buy a Honda Civic, and it's not
> fast enough for you, don't throw a fit and complain to Honda about how
> it needs a turbocharger and all wheel drive and what not.
>
> Just go buy a different car.
>
> ~Greg
> (A faithful Euphorian for 5+ years)
Just wanted to second this statement. Right on, etc. If people apply half the
energy they use to decry this or that lack of Eu feature to making improvements
in libraries and programming aids, then we would all be much further ahead. The
ESL will be a good thing, and will represent hard work and friendly criticism to
evolve as it should. It's an example of the way to move on.
Another thing that might help for those who want it, is a new look at the
pre-processor idea that David Cuny pioneered. Couldn't every structure, pointer
fantasy, and any other gizmo be done with that? The great advantage to doing
things that way would be that the basic language is untouched and remains clean
and fast, while the many "niche" demands are satisfied to some reasonable degree.
--Quark
7. Re: RDS is hopeless
Vincent wrote:
>
> Euman wrote:
> >
> > Ok..I think Ive had enough of that putting my beloved Linux down..watch,
> > listen and learn my friend..Linux will rule sooner not later. Thus
> > M$ better hurry with Vista..
>
> There is absolutely no indication of Linux creeping up on Microsoft. Just go
> buy a
> new computer, and you will see exactly what I'm talking about.
Just go and work for a company. If you order a server you get Red Hat Enterprise
Linux nowadays.
> >
> > > I think Euphoria will remain virtually unknown to Linux and BSD
> > > developers, thus little chance
> > with that either. </font></i>
> >
> > This I agree with, if Euphoria were open sourced then it would
> > (in my opinion) handle most of the administration and most system tools
> > with ease..A welcome to the Linux community Rob.
> >
>
> I highly doubt Rob wants to let go of his precious angel: Euphoria.
Who know maybe one of these days he might.
> > > Java and Mono (cross-platform .NET) along with C/C++ are really the only
> > > contenders now and
> > in the future, </font></i>
> >
> > I wont go there..I'm just a stupid euphoria programmer I guess..
> > (as you see things)
>
> No just a foolish one.. I guess I might want to get a job in the programming
> field
> someday, I like to be prepared. It seems like EVERYONE is using Java or .NET.
> Suprizing
> huh?
Well, I work as a professional programmer and I use Euphoria everyday as a
scripting language instead of the monstrosity that is Perl. I also use it for
data exctraction and analysis for the data our instruments return.
> >
> > > I dont think Robert would EVER consider doing that, I mean he isn't even
> > > considering a tiny
> > namespace improvement. </font></i>
> >
> > I'd like to know how you know what Rob thinks?
> >
> > (this will open up a can of worms for sure)
> >
>
> It wont do anything. Robert doesnt care about what we want.
Now I want many improvements added to Euphoria too but Euphoria is HIS language.
He wroe it because it's the language HE wants. IF you want to write your own
language go right ahead but nowhere does it say that he has to do what the people
that buy his software say.
> >
> > > I believe the only way to go in the future is .NET and/or Java (I'm
> > > learning both),
> >
> > crystal-balls actually work?
> >
>
> Euphoria works? Wooo dude...
Euphoria actually works really well. Sure, it could use a lot of improvements
but overall it's easy to program and easy to debug. I know more programming
languages then you probably know exist yet I use Euphoria everyday both at my job
and at home on my own projects. Do I wish Euphoria was open source and/or Rob
fixed stuff more often? Sure, but I could just as easily use Perl, Java, or any
of the numerous other languages I know but I continue to use Euphoria for its
flexibilty and ease of coding/debugging.
> >
> > > On Windows you eventually wont have a choice, it will be either .NET or
> > > nothing.
> >
> > shew, I better rush right over there and grab my copy..lol
> > yeah the M$ hook has been sunk and they're reeling you in.
> >
> > "you big fish you.."
> >
> > > Nevermind how expensive the Visual Studio IDE is, there is free
> > > open-source alternatives like
> > SharpDevelop, or Eclipse.</font></i>
> >
> > lest not forget this people cause we are all going to be .net
> > programmers soon so make sure you bookmark this..
>
> Well if you want to develop on windows you will. But you dont want to so, no
> worries
> for you.
MS won't get rid of Win32 for a while if they want to keep their client base.
They're not that stupid.
> >
> > > I'm kind of upset that I spent over $100 on RDS products that are
> > > non-refundable.
> >
> > I guess you are one of those people that wears an outfit one day then
> > takes it back to the store for an exchange..You ever get tired of that
> > not ever owning anything?
> >
> > > Robert: I still want that free upgrade to the v2.6 or v3.0 source code,
> >
> > heh, you might be a tad wish washy here.
>
> Not really, I want my moneys worth. Wouldnt you?
Well, what'd you buy? Assuming you bought all three and they all work you got
your money's worth. You can try out the language and translator out before you
buy them so if you were astute you would've tried them and realized whether or
not you wanted them. If you tried them out, wanted them, got the products, and
they worked then by most counts you got your money's worth.
The Euphoria Standard Library project :
http://esl.sourceforge.net/
The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list :
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion
8. Re: RDS is hopeless
Vincent wrote:
>
> Well at least I know I wont be getting anything I asked for in the next
> release, so
> I'm happily leaving for good. I still would of left even if Rob gave me the
> features
> I asked for. Why?, because there is no future with Euphoria on Microsoft
> Windows. The
> next version of Windows: Windows Vista, has a completely new development
> platform based
> on .NET (WinFX), while the Win32 API will still be supported (Win16 not
> supported),
> people will quickly see the advantages using WinFX and stop using the Win32
> coding
> base. By 2008, Microsoft expects that all development revolving around Windows
> will
> be .NET based, and may remove Win32. Sure there is Linux and BSD, but their
> markets
> are small compared to Windows. The next generation of Windows is promised to
> be a big
> improvement over Windows XP in every aspect (bigger than Win 3.1 to 95).
> Windows wont
> be so inferior to Linux anymore. That will prevent Linux or BSD from ever
> dominating
> the desktop domain. Microsoft's marketing is just to powerful against open
> source.
> I think Euphoria will remain virtually unknown to Linux and BSD developers,
> thus little
> chance with that either. Java and Mono (cross-platform .NET) along with C/C++
> are really
> the only contenders now and in the future, for those platforms.
>
> There could be an Euphoria.NET, but it would have to become a full object
> oriented
> language. It would become much like Visual Basic.NET or Delphi 8 (minus some
> minor
> syntax, and keywords). I dont think Robert would EVER consider doing that, I
> mean he
> isn't even considering a tiny namespace improvement. I probably would still
> prefer
> C# over Euphoria.NET anyway, because of the support for pointers and
> structures.
>
> I believe the only way to go in the future is .NET and/or Java (I'm learning
> both),
> regardless if your programming as a hobbiest or as a career. On Windows you
> eventually
> wont have a choice, it will be either .NET or nothing. Nevermind how expensive
> the
> Visual Studio IDE is, there is free open-source alternatives like
> SharpDevelop, or
> Eclipse.
>
> I'm kind of upset that I spent over $100 on RDS products that are
> non-refundable. Robert:
> I still want that free upgrade to the v2.6 or v3.0 source code, I may look at
> it more
> closely if you ever let go of that choke hold source license.
>
> Well anyway, I would just like to say goodbye, and maybe I'll see you all in
> the Java
> and .NET world? or maybe just the Euphoria chatroom, where Euphoria is the
> least talked
> about subject :P.
>
>
> Goodbye,
> Vincent
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> ___ __________ ___
> /__/\ /__________\ |\ _\
> \::\'\ //::::::::::\\ |'|::|
> \::\'\ //:::_::::_:::\\ |'|::|
> \::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\ |'|::|
> \::\'\ //::/ |::| \::\\|'|::|
> \::\'\__//::/ |::| \::\|'|::|
> \::\','/::/ |::| \::\\|::|
> \::\_/::/ |::| \::\|::|
> \::,::/ |::| \:::::|
> \___/ |__| \____|
>
> .``.
> ',,'
>
>
Well it seems you have stirred up a bit oc controversy here.
However I'm sticking with Windows2000 and Euphoria.
Don Cole,
SF
