1. C++ price
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I`m sick of free C/C++ compilers . They are never corect ! Now I want =
to buy one but I don`t know where to get the best and most best priced =
one . Please help !
Ferdinand Greyling
from
Terminal Software
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I`m sick of free C/C++ =
compilers=20
. They are never corect ! Now I want to buy one but I don`t=20
know where to get the best and most best priced one . Please =
help=20
!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ferdinand Greyling</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Terminal =
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2. Re: C++ price
At 09:35 AM 6/19/00 +0200, L wrote:
>I`m sick of free C/C++ compilers . They are never corect ! Now I want to
>buy one but I don`t know where to get the best and most best priced one .
>Please help !
I know that you have just said that you are sick of free
compilers. However, have you tried the Gnu Compiler Collection - it
handles C, C++, Objective C, Fortran, Java and CHILL - while it may be
free, it is used successfully by thousands of developers world-wide.
HTH,
Zak Greant
Creative Director
Nucleus Information Service Inc.
"I am rather like a mosquito in a nudist camp: I know what I ought to do,
but I don't know where to begin."
- Stephen Bayne
3. Re: C++ price
>I know that you have just said that you are sick of free
>compilers. However, have you tried the Gnu Compiler Collection - it
>handles C, C++, Objective C, Fortran, Java and CHILL - while it may be
>free, it is used successfully by thousands of developers world-wide.
Yes.
However, all these "thousands of developer world-wide" have one thing in
common. They are forced by law not only to release their sofwtare free of
charge, they are forced by law to do it by releasing the SOURCE CODE to any
application compiled with a GNU compiler. You wrote
a cool game with DJGPP? Then you are forced to distribute the full source to
it when you sell your game. And your publisher won't just "sit around and
wait for the cows to come home", but will compile your source and sell the
game as it's own. Some publishers even have hackers employed to strip the
names out of products from people that apply for something to be
distributed, and sell it as their own.
So, GNU is great for hobby programming at home, but the moment you place
your app on the web, free or not, you are forced to place the source right
next to it or you can get sued by the FSF!
Jason Leit,
Cheers! :)
>
>HTH,
>
>Zak Greant
>Creative Director
>Nucleus Information Service Inc.
>
>"I am rather like a mosquito in a nudist camp: I know what I ought to do,
>but I don't know where to begin."
>- Stephen Bayne
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
4. Re: C++ price
At 07:21 PM 6/20/00 +0000, Jason Leit wrote:
>>I know that you have just said that you are sick of free
>>compilers. However, have you tried the Gnu Compiler Collection - it
>>handles C, C++, Objective C, Fortran, Java and CHILL - while it may be
>>free, it is used successfully by thousands of developers world-wide.
>
>Yes.
>However, all these "thousands of developer world-wide" have one thing in
>common. They are forced by law not only to release their sofwtare free of
>charge, they are forced by law to do it by releasing the SOURCE CODE to any
>application compiled with a GNU compiler. You wrote
>a cool game with DJGPP? Then you are forced to distribute the full source to
>it when you sell your game.
Hi Jason!
Some of us consider this to be an advantage. ;)
Seriously though, I am embarrassed that I did not think to mention this.
Thank you for mentioning it.
I do almost all of my programming with open source tools - I forgot that
not everyone knows that Uncle Stallman has an interest in their source code
when they use GNU tools.
>And your publisher won't just "sit around and
>wait for the cows to come home", but will compile your source and sell the
>game as it's own.
Ah yes... however, then *they* need to worry about being sued by the Free
Software Foundation. The primary GNU license is viral in nature. If a
publisher redistributes open source code as their own application then they
have three problems:
1.) Moral - not a big issue for most of them...
2.) If caught, the FSF may sue them.
3.) Even if they make changes to the code, if they get caught, then that
code is legally open source - they lose their investment.
>Some publishers even have hackers employed to strip the
>names out of products from people that apply for something to be
>distributed, and sell it as their own.
This is a venerable tradition in the software industry. ;) Software
companies have used everything from industrial espionage to psuedo-legal
teams of 'virgin' developers in stealing others source code.
>So, GNU is great for hobby programming at home,
I don't agree with that - I feel that a lot of the infrastructure for
operating systems, languages, graphics engines, etc... should be licensed
in a fashion similar to the GNU license. I believe that open standards and
open source lead to better software for everyone. However, only time will
tell.
Note that I don't actually like *everything* about GNU/FSF - I feel that
their stand has become more dogmatic than pragmatic in nature as time has
passed. However, I do understand that it was/is an attempt to both free
the programmer and improve the state of the art.
>but the moment you place your app on the web, free or not, you are forced
>to place the source right next to it or you can get sued by the FSF!
For everyone who has an interest in this topic, drop by
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html
Ciao,
Zak Greant
Creative Director
Nucleus Information Service Inc.
"I am rather like a mosquito in a nudist camp: I know what I ought to do,
but I don't know where to begin."
- Stephen Bayne
5. Re: C++ price
Jason Leit writes:
> They are forced by law not only to release their sofwtare free of
> charge, they are forced by law to do it by releasing the
> SOURCE CODE to any application compiled with a GNU
> compiler. You wrote a cool game with DJGPP? Then you
> are forced to distribute the full source to it when you sell
> your game.
That's not my understanding of the situation.
I don't think it's as bad as that.
There are two different GNU licences: The General Licence
and the Library Licence. If you want to modify the
GNU compiler itself, read the General License - it's much
as you describe. However most people just want to *use*
the compiler. In that case you should read the Library licence.
It says that as long as you don't statically-link (i.e. incorporate
their .obj's into your .exe) then they have no claim on your program
at all. You are free to rely on shared libraries or .dlls.
If you choose to statically link their libraries then you
must make your .obj's available to your users so
they can re-link your .exe with modified versions
of GNU library routines. You do not have to reveal your source,
and you can sell your product for as much money as you like.
Remember: In GNU terminology, "Free" software
refers to *freedom* not dollars. You can charge anything
you like for "free software", if your customers are willing to pay it.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
6. Re: C++ price
>Yes.
>
>However, all these "thousands of developer
world-wide" have one thing
>in common. They are forced by law not only to
release their sofwtare free
>of charge, they are forced by law to do it by
releasing the SOURCE CODE
>to any
>application compiled with a GNU compiler. You wrote
>a cool game with DJGPP? Then you are forced to distribute the full
>source to
>it when you sell your game.
Do they require the entire source code to be posted
at once? For example, you could release one byte
per day on a web page. Then when FSF's lawyers
show up on your doorstep, you could claim
that the source IS being released. Slowly.
I used to live with a lawyer. You can't imagine
how annoying it was.
7. Re: C++ price
Hello Robert and Jason,
Robert... you are essentially correct in your interpretation of the GNU
license. Too many people MISinterpret the license and are fearful of using
the products as a result. It's a pity because it wasn't intended to have
that effect.
Jason... the new Borland C/C++ compiler (version 5.5) is a professional
compiler (the same one used in the C++ Builder 5.0 product) and it's also
free. It's license in no way restricts you from developing and selling your
own software. In addition, Borland/Inprise recently released their Turbo
Debugger (TD32.exe) for use with the 5.5 C/C++ compiler and it's also free.
Hope this helps... Lee.
Robert Craig wrote:
>Jason Leit writes:
>
>> They are forced by law not only to release their sofwtare free of
>> charge, they are forced by law to do it by releasing the
>> SOURCE CODE to any application compiled with a GNU
>> compiler. You wrote a cool game with DJGPP? Then you
>> are forced to distribute the full source to it when you sell
>> your game.
>
>That's not my understanding of the situation.
>I don't think it's as bad as that.
>
>There are two different GNU licences: The General Licence
>and the Library Licence. If you want to modify the
>GNU compiler itself, read the General License - it's much
>as you describe. However most people just want to *use*
>the compiler. In that case you should read the Library licence.
>It says that as long as you don't statically-link (i.e. incorporate
>their .obj's into your .exe) then they have no claim on your program
>at all. You are free to rely on shared libraries or .dlls.
>If you choose to statically link their libraries then you
>must make your .obj's available to your users so
>they can re-link your .exe with modified versions
>of GNU library routines. You do not have to reveal your source,
>and you can sell your product for as much money as you like.
>Remember: In GNU terminology, "Free" software
>refers to *freedom* not dollars. You can charge anything
>you like for "free software", if your customers are willing to pay it.
>
>Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
8. Re: C++ price
- Posted by RedWordSmith <redwordsmith at NIC.DREAMHOST.COM>
Jun 20, 2000
-
Last edited Jun 21, 2000
Robert Craig wrote:
> You are free to rely on shared libraries or .dlls.
> If you choose to statically link their libraries then you
> must make your .obj's available to your users so
> they can re-link your .exe with modified versions
> of GNU library routines.
The GPL seems very ambiguous about this. It says:
"the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work
based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program).
Whether that is true depends on what the Program does."
Obviously, the only work that could create itself or something largely based
on itself is a compiler (or worm, virri and similiar nasties), so certainly
gcc is eligible in this regard.
--
Nic (RedWord)Smith
9. Re: C++ price
Open Source development seems like a logical thing to do if you think about
it. You are allready giving away your program in binary form, why not give
it out in source form aswell right?
Well look at how much money the Game Industry is making by licensing out
their "3D Engines". Some licenses cost up to 200,000 dollars!
What if the game developer that creates a 3D engine, sells their game as
Open Source, and lose millions because no one is going to license their 3D
Engine anymore since they get it for free for just a few bucks. Allthough I
heard there is something like LGPL for libraries, I'm not sure what it
stands for though..
Jason Leit,
Cheers : )
>At 07:21 PM 6/20/00 +0000, Jason Leit wrote:
>>>I know that you have just said that you are sick of free
>>>compilers. However, have you tried the Gnu Compiler Collection - it
>>>handles C, C++, Objective C, Fortran, Java and CHILL - while it may be
>>>free, it is used successfully by thousands of developers world-wide.
>>
>>Yes.
>>However, all these "thousands of developer world-wide" have one thing in
>>common. They are forced by law not only to release their sofwtare free of
>>charge, they are forced by law to do it by releasing the SOURCE CODE to
>>any
>>application compiled with a GNU compiler. You wrote
>>a cool game with DJGPP? Then you are forced to distribute the full source
>>to
>>it when you sell your game.
>
>Hi Jason!
>
>Some of us consider this to be an advantage. ;)
>
>Seriously though, I am embarrassed that I did not think to mention this.
>Thank you for mentioning it.
>
>I do almost all of my programming with open source tools - I forgot that
>not everyone knows that Uncle Stallman has an interest in their source code
>when they use GNU tools.
>
>>And your publisher won't just "sit around and
>>wait for the cows to come home", but will compile your source and sell the
>>game as it's own.
>
>Ah yes... however, then *they* need to worry about being sued by the Free
>Software Foundation. The primary GNU license is viral in nature. If a
>publisher redistributes open source code as their own application then they
>have three problems:
>
>1.) Moral - not a big issue for most of them...
>2.) If caught, the FSF may sue them.
>3.) Even if they make changes to the code, if they get caught, then that
>code is legally open source - they lose their investment.
>
>>Some publishers even have hackers employed to strip the
>>names out of products from people that apply for something to be
>>distributed, and sell it as their own.
>
>This is a venerable tradition in the software industry. ;) Software
>companies have used everything from industrial espionage to psuedo-legal
>teams of 'virgin' developers in stealing others source code.
>
>>So, GNU is great for hobby programming at home,
>
>I don't agree with that - I feel that a lot of the infrastructure for
>operating systems, languages, graphics engines, etc... should be licensed
>in a fashion similar to the GNU license. I believe that open standards and
>open source lead to better software for everyone. However, only time will
>tell.
>
>Note that I don't actually like *everything* about GNU/FSF - I feel that
>their stand has become more dogmatic than pragmatic in nature as time has
>passed. However, I do understand that it was/is an attempt to both free
>the programmer and improve the state of the art.
>
>>but the moment you place your app on the web, free or not, you are forced
>>to place the source right next to it or you can get sued by the FSF!
>
>For everyone who has an interest in this topic, drop by
>http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html
>
>
>Ciao,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Zak Greant
>Creative Director
>Nucleus Information Service Inc.
>
>"I am rather like a mosquito in a nudist camp: I know what I ought to do,
>but I don't know where to begin."
>- Stephen Bayne
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
10. Re: C++ price
I'm sorry Robert, I just replied to this topic before reading your mail. I
didn't know that, I thought that even if I wrote a "hello world" and
compiled it with a GNU compiler, I had to release the source along with it.
So if I don't use any of their libraries, I don't have to ship my source
with my programs?
If that's so, then I guess I had a wrong imression about GNU compilers, and
can finally start fiddling with DJGPP :)
Jason Leit,
Cheers :)
P.S. in a post replying to C compilers, you asked where I got hold of Watcom
for free. I got it by doing a search on Yahoo for "Watcom" and found a C
programming site with a link on the bottom that lead to the compiler, and it
started downloading. I tried doing a simmiliar search again now but couldn't
find the site at first, then the URL popped into my head again :). here is
the link: http://www.ballyhoo.eu.org/~euler/c/watcom11.zip
It's Watcom 1.1, and the site I got it from
(http://www.ballyhoo.eu.org/~euler/c/) is the only one I found on the net
with the zip. Enjoy!
>Jason Leit writes:
>
> > They are forced by law not only to release their sofwtare free of
> > charge, they are forced by law to do it by releasing the
> > SOURCE CODE to any application compiled with a GNU
> > compiler. You wrote a cool game with DJGPP? Then you
> > are forced to distribute the full source to it when you sell
> > your game.
>
>That's not my understanding of the situation.
>I don't think it's as bad as that.
>
>There are two different GNU licences: The General Licence
>and the Library Licence. If you want to modify the
>GNU compiler itself, read the General License - it's much
>as you describe. However most people just want to *use*
>the compiler. In that case you should read the Library licence.
>It says that as long as you don't statically-link (i.e. incorporate
>their .obj's into your .exe) then they have no claim on your program
>at all. You are free to rely on shared libraries or .dlls.
>If you choose to statically link their libraries then you
>must make your .obj's available to your users so
>they can re-link your .exe with modified versions
>of GNU library routines. You do not have to reveal your source,
>and you can sell your product for as much money as you like.
>Remember: In GNU terminology, "Free" software
>refers to *freedom* not dollars. You can charge anything
>you like for "free software", if your customers are willing to pay it.
>
>Regards,
> Rob Craig
> Rapid Deployment Software
> http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
11. Re: C++ price
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buy it illegal from guy that sells it, sure someone around there, like i =
did VC++5.0. it was 1 cd around 10$ (1000SIT)
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>buy it illegal from =
guy that sells=20
it, sure someone around there, like i did VC++5.0. it was 1 cd around =
10$=20
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12. Re: C++ price
Jason Leit writes:
> I thought that even if I wrote a "hello world" and
> compiled it with a GNU compiler, I had to release the
> source along with it. So if I don't use any of their libraries,
> I don't have to ship my source with my programs?
That's right, but it would be hard to write a program that
didn't at least use their standard C library (printf, getc etc.).
However, as I said, you don't have to give away your source.
The only requirement is that you must let your users relink
your .obj's if you link statically with GNU libraries.
If you link only dynamically (like exu does),
you have no requirements to do anything.
Regarding the "free" WATCOM compiler:
You found it on some private individual's Web site.
I don't think he has the right to distribute it.
Regards,
Rob Craig
Rapid Deployment Software
http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
13. Re: C++ price
On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, you wrote:
>
> I`m sick of free C/C++ compilers . They are never corect ! Now I want to buy
> one but I don`t know where to get the best and most best priced one . Please help
> !
>
> Ferdinand Greyling
You can buy M$ Visual C++ 6.0 Pro for $99.00, if you can prove you are a
student. http://www.academicoop.com/ProductInfo/academstore.asp
or try a local college bookstore.
Regards,
Irv
14. Re: C++ price
Skoda writes:
....
buy it illegal from guy that sells it, sure someone around there, like i did
VC++5.0. it was 1 cd around 10$ (1000SIT)
...
I hope that's a political statement, and you're an anarchist out to destroy
Capitalist and the Western Way of Life. Because if not, you're a thief, or
at least a thief's accomplice.
Mind you, I do not live in Alpha Centauri. I'm perfectly aware that good
software can be very expensive, and the temptation can be great, too. But
even if you can't afford shareware (and if you can pay $10 there's a lot of
good inexpensive shareware around), there's always freeware. Search a
little, and you will find tons of wonderful free software, really free and
really functional and useful.
Nobody's perfect, and be assured that this is not a personal matter, against
you or anybody else. But there's a world of difference between ocassionally
copying something you haven't paid for (which you and I and everybody has
done, but is still illegal, and you should never forget it, because your
pleasure is someone's pain), and the serious purchasing of illegal software
from a black market dealer.
Those guys are not your friends, lending you a hand by saving you a few
bucks. They are wholesalers, they mount veritable factories, they make
thousands of dollars (and more) out of your need and/or greed. And they
don't pay the taxes that pay for the hospitals and schools you need even
more than cheap software.
Search the web, search ftp sites. Go to www.tucows.com, to www.zdnet.com, to
www.cnet.com. Query your favorite search engines (mine are
www.northernlight.com and www.alltheweb.com) for "freeware programming
downloads", or similar phrases. You'll be overwhelmed by the variety and
quality of the material you'll find.
I don't know about your country, but do you know what's been happening, here
in Argentina, for the last few years? Sick and tired of being pirated out of
business, the main software vendors, international and local, have joined
forces, hired a law firm, and involved the Federal Police and the national
tax office. Every few weeks they fall upon one of your friendly neighborhood
copymasters, confiscate the goods, throw them into jail, and splash them all
over the papers and TV news. As the criminals they are.
Copying for personal use may be excused on the basis of need,
unavailability, or even convenience. You don't want to enter your credit
card number, or you couldn't buy it any nearer than Outer Mongolia, as is
still the case in some parts of the world. But copying for commercial use is
a very different matter, and it's the same whether you do it yourself, or
you knowingly buy it from someone who does.
Sorry about the sermon, friends, but some things I feel just have to be
said. Thank you.
Gerardo E. Brandariz
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
15. Re: C++ price
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Gerardo E. Brandariz=20
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU=20
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:36 AM
Subject: Re: C++ price
Skoda writes:
....
buy it illegal from guy that sells it, sure someone around there, like =
i did
VC++5.0. it was 1 cd around 10$ (1000SIT)
...
It cost me $60 Canadian to buy VC++. Why would you risk criminal charges =
for the sake of a measly few bucks? And by spending the extra few bucks, =
I have unlimited tech support, free upgrades, access to all kinds of =
freebies for it, and regular information updates.
Sometimes it is worthwhile to dl the pirate version though...
For example, I have a copy of 3DS r3, and 3DS MAX r3. These programs are =
worth at least $1000 each just for the student versions. (That means I =
can use the program for personal use only.) The professional version is =
worth $3500.
I have the pirated copy so I can learn and see if I like it. But once I =
am familiar with the program and ready to use it to make money, I will =
have to buy the pro version so that I can get the license to produce =
with it.
I wouldn't spend that kind of money without knowing first whether I like =
the software or not..
FYI: pirated software is legal to download for demo purposes. But after =
24 hours you must delete all the files associated with the pirated =
program.
Chris
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:gebrandariz at YAHOO.COM" =
title=3Dgebrandariz at YAHOO.COM>Gerardo E.=20
Brandariz</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU"=20
title=3DEUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 23, 2000 =
1:36 AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: C++ price</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Skoda writes:<BR><BR>....<BR>buy it illegal from guy that sells =
it, sure=20
someone around there, like i did<BR>VC++5.0. it was 1 cd around 10$=20
(1000SIT)<BR>...</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>It cost me $60 Canadian to buy VC++. Why would you risk criminal =
charges=20
for the sake of a measly few bucks? And by spending the extra few =
bucks, I=20
have unlimited tech support, free upgrades, access to all kinds of =
freebies for=20
it, and regular information updates.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sometimes it is worthwhile to dl the pirate version though...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For example, I have a copy of 3DS r3, and 3DS MAX r3. These =
programs are=20
worth at least $1000 each just for the student versions. (That means I =
can use=20
the program for personal use only.) The professional version is worth=20
$3500.</DIV>
<DIV>I have the pirated copy so I can learn and see if I like it. But =
once I am=20
familiar with the program and ready to use it to make money, I will have =
to buy=20
the pro version so that I can get the license to produce with it.</DIV>
<DIV>I wouldn't spend that kind of money without knowing first whether I =
like=20
the software or not..</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>FYI: pirated software is legal to download for demo purposes. But =
after 24=20
hours you must delete all the files associated with the pirated =
program.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BFDD2A.63420820--
16. Re: C++ price
I hate to say that, but that's the biggest crock of bull that I have ever
seen stewed up. There is no "24 hour demo" rule out there, for those of you
wondering. I don't get that involved with that list, but when a plain,
bald-faced lie like that is said, I have to say something.
-----Original Message-----
From: Euphoria Programming for MS-DOS
[mailto:EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU]On Behalf Of Chris Bensler
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:48 PM
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: C++ price
FYI: pirated software is legal to download for demo purposes. But after 24
hours you must delete all the files associated with the pirated program.
Chris
