1. A Human Baby Learns
> AI does not require the ability to dynamically program itself. That's
> what the neural net is for.
Yeah. If you think about it, all we really are is a brain. The body is like
a vehicle, getting us around to where we want to go, able to process fuel to
keep us alive, etc.
> You cannot reprogam how you see/taste/touch/hear/smell. These are our
> basic sensory tools, that we use to get input from our environment.
What makes a human being able to achieve sentience, whereas other creatures
(including dogs, cats) are not? Or do they? (I use "sentience" to mean not
only perception and feeling, but self-perception.) What does a human being
at birth understand? think? perceive? What is it about our hardware that
lets us grow up to be smarter than dolphins?
> Think of instinct as our basic set of tools/actions/reactions that we
> have at our disposal.
Yes, and we have to have autonomic functions as well.
Think about a human baby. Left on its own, it will perish. Nurtured, it can
eventually become a Nobel-prize winning physicist.
That same human baby has no control over its arms (initially)... so how does
it learn to control those arms, hands, and fingers, enough to play a
composition by Rachmaninov?!
2. Re: A Human Baby Learns
On 7 Nov 2002, at 13:29, C. K. Lester wrote:
>
> > AI does not require the ability to dynamically program itself. That's
> > what the neural net is for.
>
> Yeah. If you think about it, all we really are is a brain. The body is like a
> vehicle, getting us around to where we want to go, able to process fuel to
> keep
> us alive, etc.
>
> > You cannot reprogam how you see/taste/touch/hear/smell. These are our
> > basic sensory tools, that we use to get input from our environment.
>
> What makes a human being able to achieve sentience, whereas other creatures
> (including dogs, cats) are not? Or do they? (I use "sentience" to mean not
> only
> perception and feeling, but self-perception.) What does a human being at birth
> understand? think? perceive? What is it about our hardware that lets us grow
> up
> to be smarter than dolphins?
This is highly relative. Can you communicate 100ft under water with
squeeks? Can you use your eyes, ears, and squeeks to locate fish in that
water? Can you determine with the squeeks which echos are the non-
poisonous fish?
> > Think of instinct as our basic set of tools/actions/reactions that we
> > have at our disposal.
>
> Yes, and we have to have autonomic functions as well.
>
> Think about a human baby. Left on its own, it will perish. Nurtured, it can
> eventually become a Nobel-prize winning physicist.
>
> That same human baby has no control over its arms (initially)...
Well, that is debateable too. I've seen babies a day old raise their heads to
look at what was making a noise, and complain about harsh lighting. Most
babies have instinctual control to close their paws around anything put on
their palms. It's the ability to replace that instinct with the higher (and
slower
and more thought-out) function that we call intelligence.
> so how does it
> learn to control those arms, hands, and fingers, enough to play a composition
> by
> Rachmaninov?!
Rachmaninoff
By generating new functions. Eventually they become subconcious,
replacing the lack of the function with a working one. Replacing a cheapie
biologically efficent instinct with one more conducive to self-serving. Learning
new abilities.
Kat
3. Re: A Human Baby Learns
> > What makes a human being able to achieve sentience, whereas other
creatures
> > (including dogs, cats) are not? Or do they? (I use "sentience" to mean
not only
> > perception and feeling, but self-perception.) What does a human being at
birth
> > understand? think? perceive? What is it about our hardware that lets us
grow up
> > to be smarter than dolphins?
>
> This is highly relative. Can you communicate 100ft under water with
> squeeks?
Sure. Just need the right equipment that I (or someone else) can build. Then
I'll use Morse code and wallah! I'm communicating 100ft under water with
squeeks.
Now, can a dolphin even come up out of the water for an extended period of
time, much less communicate in English?
> Can you use your eyes, ears, and squeeks to locate fish in that
> water?
This is not a determination of intelligence.
> Can you determine with the squeeks which echos are the non-
> poisonous fish?
Nor is this.
> > That same human baby has no control over its arms (initially)...
>
> Well, that is debateable too. I've seen babies a day old raise their heads
to
> look at what was making a noise, and complain about harsh lighting.
I question your data, as 100% of the day-old babies I've seen can't lift
their head.
> It's the ability to replace that instinct with the higher (and slower
> and more thought-out) function that we call intelligence.
Yeah, that's what I've been saying all along. We start out as pure-instinct
creatures and we are somehow wired so that experience leads to pattern
matching leads to intelligence...
> > so how does it
> > learn to control those arms, hands, and fingers, enough to play a
composition by
> > Rachmaninov?!
>
> Rachmaninoff
Sergey Vasil'yevich Rachmaninov (1873-1943), according to my CD cover. ;)
> By generating new functions. Eventually they become subconcious,
> replacing the lack of the function with a working one. Replacing a cheapie
> biologically efficent instinct with one more conducive to self-serving.
Learning
> new abilities.
Yeah. That's what I said.
We really are a blank slate with plenty of storage space. :)
4. Re: A Human Baby Learns
On 7 Nov 2002, at 14:17, C. K. Lester wrote:
>
> > > What makes a human being able to achieve sentience, whereas other
> creatures
> > > (including dogs, cats) are not? Or do they? (I use "sentience" to mean
> not only
> > > perception and feeling, but self-perception.) What does a human being at
> birth
> > > understand? think? perceive? What is it about our hardware that lets us
> grow up
> > > to be smarter than dolphins?
> >
> > This is highly relative. Can you communicate 100ft under water with
> > squeeks?
>
> Sure. Just need the right equipment that I (or someone else) can build. Then
> I'll use Morse code and wallah! I'm communicating 100ft under water with
> squeeks.
>
> Now, can a dolphin even come up out of the water for an extended period of
> time, much less communicate in English?
Well, they are air-breathing mammals, and their squeeks do carry thru air. If
a non-human species arrived on Earth with their fusion star drive, and lived in
a water environment, not speaking english, i wouldn't think they were stupid if
they had no opposable thumbs.
> > Can you use your eyes, ears, and squeeks to locate fish in that
> > water?
>
> This is not a determination of intelligence.
Some deaf people can do this with clicks, altho not terribly well.
> > Can you determine with the squeeks which echos are the non-
> > poisonous fish?
>
> Nor is this.
How about the fact that no man-made sonar can resolve this at distances?
> > > That same human baby has no control over its arms (initially)...
> >
> > Well, that is debateable too. I've seen babies a day old raise their heads
> to
> > look at what was making a noise, and complain about harsh lighting.
>
> I question your data, as 100% of the day-old babies I've seen can't lift
> their head.
But you haven't seen 100% of babies!
> > It's the ability to replace that instinct with the higher (and slower
> > and more thought-out) function that we call intelligence.
>
> Yeah, that's what I've been saying all along. We start out as pure-instinct
> creatures and we are somehow wired so that experience leads to pattern
> matching
> leads to intelligence...
>
> > > so how does it
> > > learn to control those arms, hands, and fingers, enough to play a
> composition by
> > > Rachmaninov?!
> >
> > Rachmaninoff
>
> Sergey Vasil'yevich Rachmaninov (1873-1943), according to my CD cover. ;)
Oh well, different babies, different translations.
> > By generating new functions. Eventually they become subconcious,
> > replacing the lack of the function with a working one. Replacing a cheapie
> > biologically efficent instinct with one more conducive to self-serving.
> Learning
> > new abilities.
>
> Yeah. That's what I said.
>
> We really are a blank slate with plenty of storage space. :)
And reprogrammable. 
Kat
5. Re: A Human Baby Learns
> > Now, can a dolphin even come up out of the water for an extended period
of
> > time, much less communicate in English?
>
> Well, they are air-breathing mammals, and their squeeks do carry thru air.
I guess they are pretty smart, having decided NOT to come up out of the
water to join us humans. ;)
> a non-human species arrived on Earth with their fusion star drive, and
lived in
> a water environment, not speaking english, i wouldn't think they were
stupid if
> they had no opposable thumbs.
Considering that they were able to develop the technology, of course you
wouldn't consider them stupid.
My point is, a dolphin hasn't yet done what we humans can do (relatively).
We can live in their environment because we have built tools to allow us;
they've not come close. (And maybe that's because they've decided not to.
Who knows?!)
> > > Can you use your eyes, ears, and squeeks to locate fish in that
> > > water?
> >
> > This is not a determination of intelligence.
>
> Some deaf people can do this with clicks, altho not terribly well.
It's still not a determination of intelligence.
> > > Can you determine with the squeeks which echos are the non-
> > > poisonous fish?
> >
> > Nor is this.
>
> How about the fact that no man-made sonar can resolve this at distances?
They are highly advanced chemical robots. Our technology doesn't even come
CLOSE to most functionality of the animal world. Could it? Sure, given
enough time we'll be able to resolve a fish a mile away underwater...
> > I question your data, as 100% of the day-old babies I've seen can't lift
> > their head.
>
> But you haven't seen 100% of babies!
I know... I'd love to see some evidence for your claim.
> > We really are a blank slate with plenty of storage space. :)
>
> And reprogrammable.
Programmable, period.
