1. Euphoria Windows Installer
Howdy y'all!
Remember all that talk about the Euphoria Windows Installer? Bet y'all
thought I was pulling an MTS, didn't you? hehehe
A beta release is now ready for testing, so now I need some beta testers.
For more information, please see ...
http://users.arn.net/~travisbeaty/pds/installer/installer.htm
Have fun!
Travis Beaty
Claude, Texas.
2. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
> Howdy y'all!
Hey!
> Remember all that talk about the Euphoria Windows Installer? Bet y'all
> thought I was pulling an MTS, didn't you? hehehe
Not for a moment ;)
> A beta release is now ready for testing, so now I need some beta testers.
> For more information, please see ...
>
> http://users.arn.net/~travisbeaty/pds/installer/installer.htm
>
>
> Have fun!
>
> Travis Beaty
> Claude, Texas.
Just tried it out, and I'm rather impressed, looks very nice :) Here a
few suggestions, I'm being rather nit picky I know but I hope at least
some of them are helpful:
1) When it asks you to select a installation location you deviate
from the standard for windows installations and ask the user to select
the directory to install the euphoria directory into, not the
location of the euphoria directory itself... IMHO it would be better
to let the user select "c:\euphoria" or even "c:\eu" then to have them
select "c:\".
2) A few times during the installation when I clicked the next button
and the next window came up another program that was currently running
(note pad) poped up between the background and foreground windows. Not
really a huge problem but I thought I'd mention it :)
3) When I came to the first License agreement I had to alt-tab to
something else for a few seconds, when I clicked on the installer in
the task bar to bring it back up only the background window was shown,
I had to alt-tab to the foreground window. Maybe there should be some
code that brings the foreground window to the ground whenever the
background window receives focus? I've had problems bringing windows
to the front under win98+ before and found that a way to do it is:
rect = getRect(win1)
if
w32Func(xSetWindowPos,{getHandle(win1),HWND_TOPMOST,rect[1],rect[2],rect[3]-rect[1],rect[4]-rect[2],0})
then end if
if
w32Func(xSetWindowPos,{getHandle(win1),HWND_NOTOPMOST,rect[1],rect[2],rect[3]-rect[1],rect[4]-rect[2],0})
then end if
4) For packages that have no license it would be better IMHO to not
show a license agreement window at all for that package rather than
display the "this package has no license agreement" message.
5) It would be good if the next button was made the default button so
that space bar would advance the installation. The exception to this
IMO is the Agree buttons, it raises legal issues if simple hitting
enter bypasses them.
6) Where the user selects packages windows installations normal show
the base files as a package. Often they are grayed out and have
something like (Required) next to them, this just lets the user know
what is being installed...
7) Database.e is not included with the download on your site, I had to
download EDS separately. This isn't really much of a problem though as
the final version will be bound I assume...
8) How about packaging all the files (apart from a readme) into the
exe? David Cuny wrote some routines for doing this.
9) I find the web page a little difficult to read with the
background...
Ok, that's it for now, hope at least some of those suggestions are
useful...
Thomas Parslow (PatRat) ICQ #:26359483
Rat Software
http://www.rat-software.com/
Please leave quoted text in place when replying
3. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
Hello ET and Mr. Parslow!
Since both letters are here, I figured I would answer them both at the same
time. But before I begin, I'd like to mention that the small error in the
documentation has been fixed.
> I would hope that one would NEVER volunteer to install an application in
> either the root or a first level folder on any drive. If you have some
> issue with "Program Files", why not use "Local" as a base folder. I have
> seen this in a number of places. If everyone (and far too many do) claims a
> first level folder, the concept of hierarchy relative to the file system
> looses much of its benefit.
Well, 99% of the time, I tend to install new programs in "Program Files" as
well, with the exception of certain larger ones, such as the Java
environment and Borland C++ for instance. The installer defaults to
installing on the root drive of c:\ because ...
1. That is how the DOS Euphoria installer does it 
2. It's a good safe "bet" for a starting place for the user. If you did
want to install in c:\Local, it will take you much less time to type in
"Local" than it would to delete "Program Files," then type in Local.
> Hamm, I'll get off the soap box now.
Not a problem. 
You can stand on yours as long as you let me stand on
mine on occasion.
> Just tried it out, and I'm rather impressed, looks very nice :) Here a
> few suggestions, I'm being rather nit picky I know but I hope at least
> some of them are helpful:
Nit picky is good. I would like this installer to be as "right" as
possible.
> 1) When it asks you to select a installation location you deviate
> from the standard for windows installations and ask the user to select
> the directory to install the euphoria directory into, not the
> location of the euphoria directory itself... IMHO it would be better
> to let the user select "c:\euphoria" or even "c:\eu" then to have them
> select "c:\".
Okay, again I was following the DOS installer here, perhaps somewhat
blindly. From what I've been told, installing Euphoria into a folder other
than one named "Euphoria" should not be a problem, so adjusting this would
not hurt from Euphoria's standpoint. However, I'll have to rethink how the
package is read, because it makes an "image" of the folder which is
packaged, which just happens to be named Euphoria.
Another consideration I had was the following scenario: say the installer
is installing Euphoria 2.3, and the user decides they want a dual
installation: 2.2 *and* 2.3. The problem here is that installing Euphoria
2.3 will adjust the path and the EUDIR variable to point at 2.3's ex.exe,
which the user's copy of 2.2 might not like very much.
> 2) A few times during the installation when I clicked the next button
> and the next window came up another program that was currently running
> (note pad) poped up between the background and foreground windows. Not
> really a huge problem but I thought I'd mention it :)
This happens on my system as well. If I remember correctly, this is an
oddity with Windows, not with win32lib.ew or my code. Derek?
> 3) When I came to the first License agreement I had to alt-tab to
> something else for a few seconds, when I clicked on the installer in
> the task bar to bring it back up only the background window was shown,
> I had to alt-tab to the foreground window. Maybe there should be some
> code that brings the foreground window to the ground whenever the
> background window receives focus? I've had problems bringing windows
> to the front under win98+ before and found that a way to do it is:
>
> rect = getRect(win1)
> if
> w32Func(xSetWindowPos,{getHandle(win1),HWND_TOPMOST,rect[1],rect[2],rect[3]-
> rect[1],rect[4]-rect[2],0}) then end if
> if
> w32Func(xSetWindowPos,{getHandle(win1),HWND_NOTOPMOST,rect[1],rect[2],rect[3
> ]-rect[1],rect[4]-rect[2],0}) then end if
That is a problem I had not foreseen. That problem will also be on my "Do
it Now!" list. I've played with the idea of getting rid of the background
window altogether. Any thoughts on this?
> 4) For packages that have no license it would be better IMHO to not
> show a license agreement window at all for that package rather than
> display the "this package has no license agreement" message.
Again, we are in agreement here.
> 5) It would be good if the next button was made the default button so
> that space bar would advance the installation. The exception to this
> IMO is the Agree buttons, it raises legal issues if simple hitting
> enter bypasses them.
I will look into making Next the default button as well, although I've never
spaced through an installation that way. In quite a few installation
programs I've seen, "Do Not Agree" is the default, which forces the user to
actively go out of his/her way to press the Accept button. I feel that it
would be better (and would probably dodge a litigation lottery entry) to go
ahead an make "I Do Not Agree" the default. Besides, if they accidentally
"disagree," they are asked to confirm this, which gives them wiggle room.
> 6) Where the user selects packages windows installations normal show
> the base files as a package. Often they are grayed out and have
> something like (Required) next to them, this just lets the user know
> what is being installed...
Okay, this one here I'll leave from the Grand Euphorium. To me, it seems
somewhat redundant to tell a user running a Euphoria installer that they've
chosen to install Euphoria. What do the rest of you think about this? I'll
go with the majority on this one.
> 7) Database.e is not included with the download on your site, I had to
> download EDS separately. This isn't really much of a problem though as
> the final version will be bound I assume...
Yes, the final version will be bound, and I've stated in the documentation
the dependencies for eu_install.exw. One of the reasons why I was reluctant
to put the more "famous" libraries into the zip file was space
considerations. Until I get handed my meager paycheck on Friday, my web
space at ArNet is limited to 5M, and I'm about 500K shy of that limit as we
speak.
> 8) How about packaging all the files (apart from a readme) into the
> exe? David Cuny wrote some routines for doing this.
I have considered this as well. The idea though is that eventually I'd like
to set up an installer program which will have capabilities similar to
Mandrake's Package Manager. As well, I've mentioned the fact that I would
like, in future versions, for the installer to handle the data file carved
up into floppy-disk sized pieces, sort of like Java and their "Download
these 37 files separately" trick.
> 9) I find the web page a little difficult to read with the
> background...
Okay, I'll lighten the background up a bit.
> Ok, that's it for now, hope at least some of those suggestions are
> useful...
>
> Thomas Parslow (PatRat) ICQ #:26359483
> Rat Software
> http://www.rat-software.com/
> Please leave quoted text in place when replying
They were all quite useful. Thanks!
Travis Beaty ICQ #:126918470
Palo Duro Solutions
http://users.arn.net/~travisbeaty/pds
Please leave quoted text in place if it seems I went through a lot of effort
to come up with it
couldn't resist
4. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
On 4 Sep 2001, at 21:33, Travis Beaty wrote:
>
> Hello ET and Mr. Parslow!
>
> Since both letters are here, I figured I would answer them both at the same
> time. But before I begin, I'd like to mention that the small error in the
> documentation has been fixed.
>
> > I would hope that one would NEVER volunteer to install an application in
> > either the root or a first level folder on any drive. If you have some
> > issue with "Program Files", why not use "Local" as a base folder. I have
> > seen
> > this in a number of places. If everyone (and far too many do) claims a
> > first
> > level folder, the concept of hierarchy relative to the file system looses
> > much
> > of its benefit.
>
> Well, 99% of the time, I tend to install new programs in "Program Files" as
> well, with the exception of certain larger ones, such as the Java environment
> and Borland C++ for instance. The installer defaults to installing on the
> root
> drive of c:\ because ...
I put all non-MS software on D: or E:, things like Textpad, Eu, mirc, Lua, etc
on D:, extended things like dictionaries and Arachnophilia on E:. This way, if
windoze trashes C:, as long as the partition info is good, i don't lose the
other applications. Of course, now i have D: and E: as a separate hds, so it's
even more reliable. Some software i have refused to install because it
insisted on C:. With the newer MS OSs, this is even more important, if i
*must* run win2000 and *must* be online to MS, to register or get bug
patches, i will yank the other drives first.
The oem Eu installer from RDS never did work for me, i had to install it
manually.
<snip>
> > 6) Where the user selects packages windows installations normal show
> > the base files as a package. Often they are grayed out and have
> > something like (Required) next to them, this just lets the user know
> > what is being installed...
>
> Okay, this one here I'll leave from the Grand Euphorium. To me, it seems
> somewhat redundant to tell a user running a Euphoria installer that they've
> chosen to install Euphoria. What do the rest of you think about this? I'll
> go
> with the majority on this one.
Install everything available. Ask if they wish to retrieve the archives from RDS
online. Show what is happening, keep the user updated, so they don't think it
has locked itself in a endless loop. If it's all on a CD, install it all. My Eu
dir
has 4700 files, 496 folders, and uses 102 megs of hd space. You can't
reasonably ask the user to use a checklist to decide what to get with nearly
500 directories. Maybe a minimal, normal, and maximum dos/windows/linux
gui/non-gui install selector?
Kat
5. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
- Posted by aku at inbox.as
Sep 04, 2001
EWI review:
This is my suggestions and bug reports (some already mentioned by
Thomas Parslow), the installer itself is very nice.
1. The shortcut file of EE (EE.pif) still has working dir =
"c:\euphoria" wherever I installed eu.
2. It is correct that EWI does not create file association? It is teh
most important thing I think.
3. Recalculating disk space is very annoying. Better save the size of
each component.
4. Include the database.e because there is still few months to Eu
2.3.
5. Don't use the EDB database because bytes 240..255 is written as 3
bytes and it will increase the file size.
6. No need to compress the file because it will be zipped?
7. In my system, Fail to modify autoexec.bat file. I selected confirm
each action. "The installer was unable to find your autoexec file"
8. Add Browse... button for installation directory (show Select
folder dialog (few days ago I asked Derek how to show that dialog but
hasnot replied))
9. Show the "installation complete" if I choose not to reboot.
Thanks!
_____________________________________________________________________
T> Howdy y'all!
T> Remember all that talk about the Euphoria Windows Installer? Bet y'all
T> thought I was pulling an MTS, didn't you? hehehe
T> A beta release is now ready for testing, so now I need some beta testers.
T> For more information, please see ...
T> http://users.arn.net/~travisbeaty/pds/installer/installer.htm
T> Have fun!
T> Travis Beaty
T> Claude, Texas.
6. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
Hi Aku,
----- Original Message -----
From: <aku at inbox.as>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
> 8. Add Browse... button for installation directory (show Select
> folder dialog (few days ago I asked Derek how to show that dialog but
> hasnot replied))
I'm sorry Aku, but I don't remember you asking for anything like this except
how to select multiple files. I responded to that request. Is there
something else you asked?
----
Derek
7. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
Hello, Aku!
I'm replying here to both you and list.
> 1. The shortcut file of EE (EE.pif) still has working dir =
> "c:\euphoria" wherever I installed eu.
EE's installation is governed by Mr. White's EE installation program. The
EE installer is installed by the Euphoria Windows Installer, and then, with
the user's permission, is launched. So I would respectfully like to pass
the buck to CyrekSoft on this one. >
> 2. It is correct that EWI does not create file association? It is teh
> most important thing I think.
That is correct, it does not make file associations. Future versions may
have the ability to do this, but I am not quite secure enough in my
programming expertise to mess with a person's registry. When I install
programs, one thing that will piss me off quickly it to find out that
something has changed an association on me. I love automation only to a
certain point.
So if the installer ever does mess with file associations, the user will
have the ultimate authority and will know what is going on -- and have the
ability to prevent a change -- on every step of the process.
> 3. Recalculating disk space is very annoying. Better save the size of
> each component.
That is on my to-do list as well. It is an example of a "real cool idea"
that didn't quite work out.
> 4. Include the database.e because there is still few months to Eu
> 2.3.
The installer considers database.e standard equipment; thus you will find it
in the include folder, and its documentation in the doc/html folder when you
install. Mr. Craig felt that sense database.e will be a standard library in
2.3, I might as well make it a standard library in 2.2, at least were EWI is
concerned. As far as the installer itself, the official release will be
bound, so the user having/not having database.e will not be an issue.
> 5. Don't use the EDB database because bytes 240..255 is written as 3
> bytes and it will increase the file size.
I used it because I felt it led to a better structure. But I'll look into
this a little more. There will be a lot more information in the data file
for the next version, and that would make me even more prone to using EDB.
> 6. No need to compress the file because it will be zipped?
Well, perhaps. Part of the compression of the file came from the concept
that one data file would be spread across three or four (or more) floppies.
> 7. In my system, Fail to modify autoexec.bat file. I selected confirm
> each action. "The installer was unable to find your autoexec file"
Okay ... first of all, did you set the DEBUG__AUTOEXEC flag? If not, make
sure you have the drive set correctly in the Modify autoexec form that
appears. Also, you will find a file named eu_install.log either in the new
euphoria folder (if install was successful) or in the root directory of
whatever drive you attempted to install Euphoria on (if install was
unsuccessful). If you could send that file to me, I may know a little
better what is going on.
> 8. Add Browse... button for installation directory (show Select
> folder dialog (few days ago I asked Derek how to show that dialog but
> hasnot replied))
I will look into that as well. A Select Folder dialog would simply be a
GetOpenFileName() call, the same as win32lib.ew's current getOpenFileName()
routine. The difference will be in the values given in the OPENFILENAME
structure that is passed to it. I can probably hack this up fairly easily.
> 9. Show the "installation complete" if I choose not to reboot.
Good idea. Another entry to the to do list.
BTW, I am hoping to put out updates every week or two, but this would be
mitigated by work (yeah, I have to go to work unfortunately or people get
mad) and other responsibilities.
Thanks,
Travis Beaty
Claude, Texas.
8. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
Howdy again!
Kat said ...
> I put all non-MS software on D: or E:, things like Textpad, Eu, mirc, Lua, etc
> on D:, extended things like dictionaries and Arachnophilia on E:. This way, if
> windoze trashes C:, as long as the partition info is good, i don't lose the
> other applications. Of course, now i have D: and E: as a separate hds, so it's
> even more reliable. Some software i have refused to install because it
> insisted on C:. With the newer MS OSs, this is even more important, if i
> *must* run win2000 and *must* be online to MS, to register or get bug
> patches, i will yank the other drives first.
Well, at least in the eyes of EWI, this would not be a problem. You could
even attempt to install Euphoria on a floppy disk ... early in the project
somebody had mentioned that a person may actually want to do that. The only
possible fly in the soup there is that you would have to be careful to
select the correct drive on the "Modify Autoexec" form, because the
installer will default to looking for the autoexec.bat file on whatever
drive you installed Euphoria to. So, if you were to install Euphoria on E:,
and your boot partition -- I guess that is the correct term -- is C:, you
would have to select the C: drive in the Modify Autoexec form.
> The oem Eu installer from RDS never did work for me, i had to install it
> manually.
The only problem I had when I transferred Euphoria to my current WinMe
machine was due to the fact that some boneheaded engineer at Micro$oft
decided that the autoexec.bat file should be a hidden system file. I knew
there had to be an autoexec somewhere, and after a while, it dawned on me to
try attrib *.* -h to find it.
> Install everything available. Ask if they wish to retrieve the archives from
> RDS
> online. Show what is happening, keep the user updated, so they don't think it
> has locked itself in a endless loop. If it's all on a CD, install it all. My
> Eu dir
> has 4700 files, 496 folders, and uses 102 megs of hd space. You can't
> reasonably ask the user to use a checklist to decide what to get with nearly
> 500 directories. Maybe a minimal, normal, and maximum dos/windows/linux
> gui/non-gui install selector?
Okay, I guess I have a couple of issues with this. First of all, at this
point, the installer will not be an internet app, mainly because I don't
have a clue about HTTP FTP, and I don't know WAIS GOPHER. I can certainly
add an option at the end of the installation to open up the Euphoria archive
pages, as long as the user has their associations set correctly (since they
undoubtedly got the installer off the Internet, I'm pretty sure they do).
But the rest would be on them. The goal of the installer is to have the
"popular" libraries included -- the one's that are used so much by the
community at large that they might as well be considered standard.
Frankly, at this point the installer could not handle having 500 optional
install items ... to do that, I would need to place the checkboxes in a
pager or something. If that *were* to happen, I would of course include
"Check All"/"Clear All" buttons.
And finally, a show of hands please: how many folks out there have 102M in
their Euphoria folder?? I'm looking at the properties for mine right now,
and my folder is 8.16M, containing 23 folders and 362 files. My point is
that the installer is meant for the average newcomer to the language, and
the average user. I feel that my setup and folder size is much closer to
the average than yours, Kat. This is not a stomp on you at all, dear, just
trying to explain how things look on my side of the fence.
Something you might like, though, Kat, is the concept of "on-the-fly" data
file creation. This would make the installer an internet application, but
the user would go to a "download" web page, select from all the tools in the
archive, and then the data file would be created while they wait, so to
speak. But this will be many many moons from now, once I've gotten the
knowledge to pull something like that off.
Travis Beaty
Claude, Texas.
9. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
Travis wrote:
> > 1. The shortcut file of EE (EE.pif) still has working dir =
> > "c:\euphoria" wherever I installed eu.
>
> EE's installation is governed by Mr. White's EE installation program. The
> EE installer is installed by the Euphoria Windows Installer, and then,
> with the user's permission, is launched. So I would respectfully like to
> pass the buck to CyrekSoft on this one. >
The EE installer just unpacks a bunch of files. There's no way of having an
installer (mine or anyone else's) rewrite the PIF without actually
generating one from scratch. Unless you know the PIF file format... Maybe
the
best option would be to have Travis's installer remove the PIF entirely,
since Windows generates one automatically for DOS programs?
Despite the limitations of PIF control, the editor itself works wherever
Euphoria is installed, even if that 'wherever' is 'nowhere'. :)
I've got to admit though, isn't EE a little old in these WinEuphoria days?
Wouldn't it be better to install Judith's IDE (which I haven't had chance to
look at yet) instead?
While I'm on the subject of EE, how many people would want me to add the new
language features (upgrade it to version 2.3) when the new release of
Euphoria comes along?
Carl
10. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
Travis wrote:
<snip>
> And finally, a show of hands please: how many folks out there have 102M
in
> their Euphoria folder?? I'm looking at the properties for mine right now,
> and my folder is 8.16M, containing 23 folders and 362 files. My point is
> that the installer is meant for the average newcomer to the language, and
> the average user. I feel that my setup and folder size is much closer to
> the average than yours, Kat. This is not a stomp on you at all, dear,
just
> trying to explain how things look on my side of the fence.
>
201 mb in mine, just over 200 folders, 8000 odd files; but this is just poor
housekeeping (& poor programming: make a change in a program, save a new
version, new change, new version; and I make changes to *try* to make things
*work*, not just to add improvements or fix bugs, so *lots* of changes!)
Dan
11. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
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12. Re: Euphoria Windows Installer
Hello!
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to this: it is totally my fault,
due to lousy bookkeeping in the e-mail department.
> But I had a problem with the changes to the Autoexec.bat file. It said
it couldn't find it. You should open the file
> for 'write' or 'append' so that it will be created first. Then you can
open it for reading. This should be done if the Debug
> file is preset.
> Otherwise it seemed to work fine.
> Good work.
It appears there is a problem with this from a number of beta testers. I
will look into this also.
Thanks,
Travis Beaty
Claude, Texas.
