1. ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> Nov 30, 2001
- 393 views
Hello Everyone, I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use ed.ex, or any modified version. Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort to update ed.ex with features that make it more powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would you like to see implemented? Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example of Euphoria's power? Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to respond to me directly if you wish. Thanks, Ken Rhodes ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
2. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Sabal.Mike at notations.com Nov 30, 2001
- 364 views
I use a number of different editing tools depending on the task and environment. I use ed.ex most often when programming DOS or includes on my laptop. I like it as it is because of its simplicity (much like Euphoria itself). As useful as I find Mike's Editor, and as comprehensive as Judith's IDE is, I think a standard RDS version of ed.exw for Windows is a must (and not just a nice frame around a DOS box, either). For my paying job, I need tools and examples that I can rip apart and rebuild into a more specialized form in about half an hour. I also have a boss that is only beginning to acknowledge the power and efficiency of Euphoria (even though he thinks the name is weird). A couple months ago I needed a viewer for reformatted X12 (EDI) documents. With permission and guidance, I gratefully took an existing editor from the archives and added the necessary changes. Due to the complexity of the editor-in-question, there were some things that my boss wanted to see that I couldn't give him in the time allowed. The viewer does its job well for the time and money spent on it (virtually 0), and I am truly appreciative of the help I received; but an ed.exw-based viewer could have more easily pushed my boss's "WOW" button. My nickel's worth, Michael J. Sabal >>> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com 11/30/01 02:57PM >>> Hello Everyone, I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use ed.ex, or any modified version. Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort to update ed.ex with features that make it more powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would you like to see implemented? Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example of Euphoria's power? Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to respond to me directly if you wish. Thanks, Ken Rhodes ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
3. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Alvin Koffman <alvin_ka9qlq at yahoo.com> Nov 30, 2001
- 370 views
Amen. And it would be nice to have the win32lib words colored, and easily updateable as new words come out. Alvin Homepage http://ka9qlq.tripod.com/home/ Where I live. http://ka9qlq.tripod.com/CCC/ ----- Original Message ----- From: <Sabal.Mike at notations.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:34 PM Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey I use a number of different editing tools depending on the task and environment. I use ed.ex most often when programming DOS or includes on my laptop. I like it as it is because of its simplicity (much like Euphoria itself). As useful as I find Mike's Editor, and as comprehensive as Judith's IDE is, I think a standard RDS version of ed.exw for Windows is a must (and not just a nice frame around a DOS box, either). For my paying job, I need tools and examples that I can rip apart and rebuild into a more specialized form in about half an hour. I also have a boss that is only beginning to acknowledge the power and efficiency of Euphoria (even though he thinks the name is weird). A couple months ago I needed a viewer for reformatted X12 (EDI) documents. With permission and guidance, I gratefully took an existing editor from the archives and added the necessary changes. Due to the complexity of the editor-in-question, there were some things that my boss wanted to see that I couldn't give him in the time allowed. The viewer does its job well for the time and money spent on it (virtually 0), and I am truly appreciative of the help I received; but an ed.exw-based viewer could have more easily pushed my boss's "WOW" button. My nickel's worth, Michael J. Sabal >>> ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com 11/30/01 02:57PM >>> Hello Everyone, I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use ed.ex, or any modified version. Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort to update ed.ex with features that make it more powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would you like to see implemented? Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example of Euphoria's power? Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to respond to me directly if you wish. Thanks, Ken Rhodes ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com
4. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Tone Škoda <tone.skoda at zapo.net> Nov 30, 2001
- 364 views
why would he want to update it? it's not worth wasting his time cause nobody is using it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > Hello Everyone, > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > you like to see implemented? > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > of Euphoria's power? > > Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to > respond to me directly if you wish. > > Thanks, > Ken Rhodes > ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com > > > >
5. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Nov 30, 2001
- 365 views
For what it's worth, I use two editors: Code Genie (www.code-genie.com) and Ed4W (www.getsoft.com) . Both are commercial editors and both have excellect features and support. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tone Skoda" <tone.skoda at zapo.net> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > why would he want to update it? it's not worth wasting his time cause nobody > is using it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> > To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:57 PM > Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > > you like to see implemented? > > > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > > of Euphoria's power? > > > > Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to > > respond to me directly if you wish. > > > > Thanks, > > Ken Rhodes > > ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com > > > > > > >
6. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com Nov 30, 2001
- 383 views
I am using it frequently. It's not perfect, but it works. The main reason for using it is that it runs under DOS full screen, and I feel more comfortable with a large screen and font. My eyes are not the same as many years ago I'll point only to some inconsistencies and little problems: 1) Indentation is not very consistent. Procedures are indented differently than functions at the very beginning. If you add "global", indentation changes, too. 2) Adding "global" to a procedure or function hinders generating the end procedure or end function. 3) When browsing a text in order to modify it, by means of the up-arrow or down-arrow keys, the horizontal position of the cursor is not maintained, but it skips to the beginning of the line. This slows work. 4) Some keywords are not highlighted (I remember profile_time) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:57 PM Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > Hello Everyone, > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > you like to see implemented? > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > of Euphoria's power? > > Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to > respond to me directly if you wish. > > Thanks, > Ken Rhodes > ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com > > > >
7. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Igor Kachan <kinz at peterlink.ru> Dec 01, 2001
- 373 views
Hello Ken, ---------- > Îò: Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> > Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > Òåìà: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > Äàòà: Friday, November 30, 2001 22:57 > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > ed.ex, or any modified version. To program in Euphoria, I use only ed.ex. It is on my taste. The two changes I have made for myself - white strings, not green, and then a low-frequency beep instead of help-question after wrong key. > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > you like to see implemented? This editor's main feature is open well commented source - make all you want for yourself, and Rob makes all he wants for himself and for us > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > of Euphoria's power? To see Euphoria's editing power, there are many other excellent editors written in Euphoria by users - ee, Mike's, IDE ... on any taste. <my thoughts> I think, ed.ex editor is Rob's favourite hobby ... Is it possible for Rob to have such a little little hobby, I think ? Yes, I think, yes, it is possible !!!!! Why not, I think, why ????? Or do you think Rob must only implement our suggestions about ed.ex ????? Freedom, liberty and independence for Rob and his old good ed.ex !!!!! :-[ </my thoughts> But if without jokes, this editor is very good school and base to write the more complex text editors with any very powerful features for Euphoria programmers. The first thing I had done in Euphoria were the changes in ed.ex loaded in ed.ex, cool for a new boy, no ? Regards, Igor Kachan kinz at peterlink.ru
8. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Dec 01, 2001
- 362 views
Ken Rhodes wrote: > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > ed.ex, or any modified version. Oddly enough, I use EE.EX. > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > you like to see implemented? Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again. The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt were essential: - Shift+Navigation keys for text selection - Dropdown menus - Mouse support For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the key sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a complete newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code. And when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the formatting of my code. I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED. > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > of Euphoria's power? No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his best interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible. ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used ED in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my entirely unscientific usability test. I typed: > ed And was confronted with: file name: Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it immediately tells me that it's different. Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press Enter. Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt. Argh. I'm frustrated already. So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line: That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored. Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time I press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press 'ESC' to get out of the message. Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have to *guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a hint, like: That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n] And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But it doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n', and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on the top line. I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to read: junk.ex Esc for commands but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code. No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu. I have to stop and read the options: help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR: Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd' option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does. So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type the expression: for and ED helpfully auto-completes it: for = to by do end for and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going to *beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type: for i = and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't, and the text now looks like this: for i = to by do end for OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This is certainly a weird behavior: for i to by do end for So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work. I guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y, and end up at the menu: That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so I press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my code, it splits the screen and opens the help document: F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I press Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close... F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm back to this mess: for i to by do end for I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and: for i to by do end for Excellent. I eventually type: for i = 1 to 10 do end for and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not there... oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and it *beeps* at me: junk.ex 2 syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable print i ^ OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for 'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1. No, nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'. I get the prompt: ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l): OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah! It returns me to the code. I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me: quit without saving changes? Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around: Save changes to untitled? So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the editor. ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike any other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it was called; it leaves a mess on the screen. Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but complaints from the folk who love vi. -- David Cuny
9. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Dan Moyer <DANIELMOYER at prodigy.net> Dec 01, 2001
- 367 views
I only use ed.ex to find where a failing line number is in my code (I use WordPad to code with, not because it's good, just because I have it & can copy/paste easily with it). My $.02: I think it's a very negative selling point for Euphoria that there isn't a good Windows editor included as part of the package. Dan Moyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Rhodes" <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:57 AM Subject: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > Hello Everyone, > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > you like to see implemented? > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > of Euphoria's power? > > Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to > respond to me directly if you wish. > > Thanks, > Ken Rhodes > ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com > > > >
10. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Dan Moyer <DANIELMOYER at prodigy.net> Dec 01, 2001
- 369 views
Oh, yeah, now I remember, THAT'S approximately why I also don't use ed.ex! And it was (unintentionally?) almost as funny as "How to Shoot Yourself in the Foot Using Programming Languages"! :) Dan Moyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > Ken Rhodes wrote: > > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > Oddly enough, I use EE.EX. > > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > > you like to see implemented? > > Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my > brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again. > > The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first > learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt were > essential: > > - Shift+Navigation keys for text selection > - Dropdown menus > - Mouse support > > For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the key > sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra > thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a complete > newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more > unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut > text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code. And > when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the > formatting of my code. > > I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED. > > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > > of Euphoria's power? > > No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the > default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his best > interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible. > > ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and > I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used ED > in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my > entirely unscientific usability test. I typed: > > > ed > > And was confronted with: > > file name: > > Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it > immediately tells me that it's different. > > Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press Enter. > Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt. > Argh. I'm frustrated already. > > So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to > get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually > hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? > > This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored. > Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have > to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time I > press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press > 'ESC' to get out of the message. > > Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have to > *guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a hint, > like: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n] > > And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But it > doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n', > and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on the > top line. > > I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to > read: > > junk.ex Esc for commands > > but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch > the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I > punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code. > > No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu. I > have to stop and read the options: > > help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR: > > Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd' > option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me > back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does. > > So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that > I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type the > expression: > > for > > and ED helpfully auto-completes it: > > for = to by do > end for > > and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't > recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going to > *beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I > want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip > past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type: > > for i = > > and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't, > and the text now looks like this: > > for i > = to by do > end for > > OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's > not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This is > certainly a weird behavior: > > for i > to by do > end for > > So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys > to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work. I > guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y, > and end up at the menu: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? > > Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so I > press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my > code, it splits the screen and opens the help document: > > F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands > > This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I press > Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close... > > F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc > > Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and > magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm > back to this mess: > > for i > to by do > end for > > I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and: > > for i to by do > end for > > Excellent. I eventually type: > > for i = 1 to 10 do > end for > > and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not there... > oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and > it *beeps* at me: > > junk.ex 2 > syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable > print i > ^ > > OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic > recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for > 'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any > context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1. No, > nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'. I > get the prompt: > > ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l): > > OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah! It > returns me to the code. > > I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me: > > quit without saving changes? > > Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around: > > Save changes to untitled? > > So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the editor. > ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike any > other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it was > called; it leaves a mess on the screen. > > Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but > complaints from the folk who love vi. > > -- David Cuny > > > >
11. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Tone Škoda <tone.skoda at zapo.net> Dec 01, 2001
- 361 views
I agree; if there would be no ED more newbie woulds stay with Euphoria. Ed would be more easier to use if you would print all key commands on paper and have it in front of you to look at. But who does that? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > Ken Rhodes wrote: > > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > Oddly enough, I use EE.EX. > > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > > you like to see implemented? > > Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my > brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again. > > The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first > learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt were > essential: > > - Shift+Navigation keys for text selection > - Dropdown menus > - Mouse support > > For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the key > sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra > thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a complete > newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more > unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut > text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code. And > when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the > formatting of my code. > > I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED. > > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > > of Euphoria's power? > > No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the > default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his best > interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible. > > ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and > I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used ED > in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my > entirely unscientific usability test. I typed: > > > ed > > And was confronted with: > > file name: > > Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it > immediately tells me that it's different. > > Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press Enter. > Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt. > Argh. I'm frustrated already. > > So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to > get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually > hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? > > This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored. > Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have > to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time I > press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press > 'ESC' to get out of the message. > > Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have to > *guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a hint, > like: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n] > > And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But it > doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n', > and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on the > top line. > > I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to > read: > > junk.ex Esc for commands > > but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch > the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I > punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code. > > No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu. I > have to stop and read the options: > > help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR: > > Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd' > option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me > back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does. > > So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that > I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type the > expression: > > for > > and ED helpfully auto-completes it: > > for = to by do > end for > > and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't > recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going to > *beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I > want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip > past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type: > > for i = > > and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't, > and the text now looks like this: > > for i > = to by do > end for > > OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's > not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This is > certainly a weird behavior: > > for i > to by do > end for > > So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys > to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work. I > guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y, > and end up at the menu: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? > > Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so I > press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my > code, it splits the screen and opens the help document: > > F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands > > This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I press > Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close... > > F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc > > Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and > magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm > back to this mess: > > for i > to by do > end for > > I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and: > > for i to by do > end for > > Excellent. I eventually type: > > for i = 1 to 10 do > end for > > and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not there... > oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and > it *beeps* at me: > > junk.ex 2 > syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable > print i > ^ > > OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic > recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for > 'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any > context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1. No, > nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'. I > get the prompt: > > ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l): > > OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah! It > returns me to the code. > > I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me: > > quit without saving changes? > > Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around: > > Save changes to untitled? > > So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the editor. > ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike any > other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it was > called; it leaves a mess on the screen. > > Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but > complaints from the folk who love vi. > > -- David Cuny > > > >
12. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> Dec 01, 2001
- 389 views
I like ed.ex quite a lot and will continue to adapt it for my needs. Yet I must agree with many of the comments posted in response to this survey... I first downloaded a version of Euphoria from a local bulletin board in maybe 94 or 95. It was described as being a hobby language that was easier to use than BASIC - that caught my eye! :) Well, basically i couldn't get off the ground with it. And I think frustrations with ed.ex then was the major problem. When I finally got on the net I did a search to see if the language had prospered. I found the Official Euphoria Home Page. Maybe 4 or 5 user contributions were listed at the bottom of the page then - I remember Art's db enhancement to the Rob's demo was posted. So I downloaded Euphoria 1.3 I think it was and persevered with ed.ex. Once I learned it, I really liked it... but there was a learning curve. And I did miss not having mouse support. I was very excited when David Cuny posted ee and I began to use it. However, now I found myself annoyed by not being able to view at least portions of separate open files on the screen at the same time. And although often there were keystroke alternatives to drop down menu features, by now I was accustomed to the ed.ex approach and did not feel it was worth it to adapt to ee. EE is without doubt an excellent editor - I think it did and still does serve to illustrate Euphoria's power by giving new user's a reference point of comparisom with the MS DOS editor which so many people were familiar with. So much for nostalgia. GUI applications are where its at. I believe that the editor bundled with Euphoria is by far the most important factor in forming a first impression upon new users. And new users at this point in time virtually require a GUI editor. I am rue to see RDS develop a Win32lib editor that obviously would not run on LINUX. Therefore, my hope is that David Cuny will prevail in his intention to implement WxWindows for Euphoria. I urge RDS to do everything possible to assist David with that project. My thinking of course is that an Euphoria WxWindows library will allow RDS to write a cross platform GUI editor. Right now ed.ex is the only Euphoria editor that I am aware of that runs "as is" on Windows and Linux. Kenneth Rhodes
13. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by pampeano at ROCKETMAIL.COM Dec 01, 2001
- 380 views
Well, honestly, I really enjoy it, the second time I used it =) The first one as much of you was a nightmare, beepings from everywhere, and tons of weird things as ESC + Q to quit. Now, I made some modifications and I think it's very comfortable. It's not for newbies, it's for a middle eu4 programmer that can edit the source and adjust it as he likes. My 0,000001$ cents. Best regards, Guillermo Bonvehi --- Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > you like to see implemented? > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > of Euphoria's power? > > Your comments will be appreciated. Feel free to > respond to me directly if you wish. > > Thanks, > Ken Rhodes > ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com > > > >
14. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Dec 01, 2001
- 376 views
Ken Rhodes wrote: > My thinking of course is that an Euphoria WxWindows > library will allow RDS to write a cross platform GUI > editor. Yes, there is a free, lightweight editor called SciTE: http://www.scintilla.org (or just look at the pretty picture:) http://www.scintilla.org/SciTEImage.html It's cross-platform, and has even been used in commercial products. Robin Dunn is in the process of wrapping it as a wxWindows control. Very cool stuff. -- David Cuny
15. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com Dec 01, 2001
- 366 views
Yes, you are right, ed has many, many problems. But, according to what you tell, it seems to me that ed was not only your first attempt to use Euphoria, but the first one to use *any* program ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > Ken Rhodes wrote: > > > I am interested in knowing how many of you (us) use > > ed.ex, or any modified version. > > Oddly enough, I use EE.EX. > > > Does anyone feel it is worth Robert's time and effort > > to update ed.ex with features that make it more > > powerful and easy to use; if so - what features would > > you like to see implemented? > > Keep in mind that it's been a long time since I've used ED, but from my > brief revisiting, I'm not encouraged to start using it again. > > The editor makes a *lot* of difference for the language. When I first > learned Euphoria, I tried to use ED, but it lacked many features I felt were > essential: > > - Shift+Navigation keys for text selection > - Dropdown menus > - Mouse support > > For me, using ED was an experience in frustration. It didn't support the key > sequences I normally used, so using the editor required a lot of extra > thinking on my part. Since my frustration was already high (being a complete > newbie), having to fight with the editor made using Euphoria even more > unpleasant. It didn't help that some key combinations (Ctrl+C, for "cut > text") that I was used to would cause the editor to bomb and lose code. And > when I'd bounce between the DOS editor and ED, ED would mangle the > formatting of my code. > > I actually stopped using Euphoria because of ED. > > > Do you think it would be worth Rob's effort to enhance > > ed.ex just to make it a better more elaborate example > > of Euphoria's power? > > No, I think there are already plenty of nice demos. But since ED is the > default editor supplied with Euphoria, I think that it would be in his best > interest to make it as comfortable for as many users as possible. > > ED is probably the first Euphoria program that they are likely to use, and > I'm going to bet that it won't be a pleasant visit. Since I haven't used ED > in years, I'm pretty much a complete newbie. Let me walk you through my > entirely unscientific usability test. I typed: > > > ed > > And was confronted with: > > file name: > > Huh? All the other DOS editors create an unnamed file for me. Not ED; it > immediately tells me that it's different. > > Now, I just wanted an empty file, so I leave the line blank and press Enter. > Instead of opening an unnamed file, it returned me to the command prompt. > Argh. I'm frustrated already. > > So I try again, this time entering a filename. I start typing, and want to > get to the menu. Without thinking, I type Ctrl+F - the reflex is virtually > hard-wired. ED responds by placing me at the top line: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? > > This isn't true. If the key did nothing, it would simply be ignored. > Instead, it pops up this message which interrupts my work flow, and I have > to read it, and figure out how to get rid of it. Does this mean every time I > press an 'invalid' key combination, ED will do this? I hope not... I press > 'ESC' to get out of the message. > > Oh, bother... That does nothing. I'm stuck at a modal dialog, and I have to > *guess* the magic key that ED wants. The message really should have a hint, > like: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? [y/n] > > And optimally, assume that anything that's not a 'Y' or 'y' is a no. But it > doesn't, and I'm irritated because it's interrupted my flow. I press 'n', > and I'm placed back in the text. The error message is still displayed on the > top line. > > I still haven't figured out how to get to the menu. The top line used to > read: > > junk.ex Esc for commands > > but now it just displays the last error message. I take a guess and punch > the ESC key. Ah! The menu comes up. My frustration goes down a bit, and I > punch ESC to leave the menu and return to the code. > > No, bless that well-designed editor, ESC *doesn't* let me out of the menu. I > have to stop and read the options: > > help clone quit save write new ex dos find replace lines mods ddd CR: > > Now I'm puzzled. I don't see any obvious means of escape, and the 'ddd' > option is especially unhelpful. I take a wild guess that CR might get me > back to the command line, and (happily enough), it does. > > So far, this hasn't been a pleasant experience for me. I'm convinced that > I'll *never* be using ED, but I play with it a bit more. I start to type the > expression: > > for > > and ED helpfully auto-completes it: > > for = to by do > end for > > and it *beeps*. I don't like it when my machine beeps at me, and I don't > recall anything in the menu that allowed me to turn it off. If it's going to > *beep* every time it auto-completes, it's going to be very irritating. I > want to keep typing, but I'm not sure what to do. Do I press 'tab' to skip > past the keywords, or use the arrow keys? I type: > > for i = > > and press the tab key, hoping ED will skip past the '=' sign. It doesn't, > and the text now looks like this: > > for i > = to by do > end for > > OK, no problem. I press the BACKSPACE key to unsplit the line. No, that's > not working... it's acting like the DELETE key and deleting my text! This is > certainly a weird behavior: > > for i > to by do > end for > > So I figure I'll just delete the code and start over. I use the arrow keys > to move to the top line, and press Shift+DownArrow. No, that doesn't work. I > guess that maybe it uses something old, like Wordstar, so I press Ctrl+Y, > and end up at the menu: > > That key does nothing. Do you want to view the help file? > > Did I mention that I *seriously* hate this message? I don't want help, so I > press Enter to get out of the menu. But instead of putting me back in my > code, it splits the screen and opens the help document: > > F2: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc Esc for commands > > This behavior has me baffled - I *know* I didn't press the 'Y' key. I press > Esc to get to the menu, and 'c' to close... > > F3: c:\euphoria\doc\ed.doc > > Oh, wonderful. That was 'clone', not 'close'. I try 'q' this time, and > magically, the screen is only divided into two parts. F2, ESC, Q and I'm > back to this mess: > > for i > to by do > end for > > I move the cursor to the end of the first line, press DELETE, and: > > for i to by do > end for > > Excellent. I eventually type: > > for i = 1 to 10 do > end for > > and I go to run it. I press ESC and look for 'run' in the menu. Not there... > oh, yeah: 'ex'. Good thing I'm not a complete newbie. I press the 'e', and > it *beeps* at me: > > junk.ex 2 > syntax error - expected to see possibly '(', not a variable > print i > ^ > > OK, this is clearly an error on my part - I've been coding in Basic > recently. I return to the code, and wonder what exactly the syntax for > 'print' is. Since 'print' is syntax colored, I wonder if ED has any > context-sensitive help. I position the cursor at 'print', and press F1. No, > nothing. Not even a 'this key does nothing' message. So I try ESC and 'h'. I > get the prompt: > > ed.doc, refman.doc or library.doc (e, r or l): > > OK, no context sensitive help. I hold my breath and press ENTER. Hurrah! It > returns me to the code. > > I figure it's time to exit, so I press ESC, Q. It prompts me: > > quit without saving changes? > > Now, all the other editors I use ask the question the other way around: > > Save changes to untitled? > > So I automatically press 'Y', and am suprised to end up still in the editor. > ESC, Q, and this time, I pay attention to the message, exit. But unlike any > other DOS editor, ED doesn't restore the screen to where it was when it was > called; it leaves a mess on the screen. > > Of course, if ED behaved exactly like DOS EDIT, you'd get nothing but > complaints from the folk who love vi. > > -- David Cuny > > > >
16. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Dec 01, 2001
- 364 views
rforno wrote: > Yes, you are right, ed has many, many problems. But, according > to what you tell, it seems to me that ed was not only your first > attempt to use Euphoria, but the first one to use *any* program ;) No, sadly that was my actual experience using ED *last night*. I was thinking that perhaps Robert had updated ED since my initial experience with it, but that appears not to be the case. Then again, I probably haven't patched EE to user normal time instead of military time... -- David Cuny
17. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by Kat <gertie at PELL.NET> Dec 01, 2001
- 369 views
On 1 Dec 2001, at 12:27, David Cuny wrote: > > Ken Rhodes wrote: > > > My thinking of course is that an Euphoria WxWindows > > library will allow RDS to write a cross platform GUI > > editor. > > Yes, there is a free, lightweight editor called SciTE: > > http://www.scintilla.org > > (or just look at the pretty picture:) > > http://www.scintilla.org/SciTEImage.html > > It's cross-platform, and has even been used in commercial products. Robin > Dunn is in the process of wrapping it as a wxWindows control. Very cool > stuff. How about http://www.libsdl.org/ ? This also does Apple Macs. But anyhow, i still use TextPad, with ConText on the side, but unused so far. I agree with the writings about RDS's Ed, if that is all i had to write Eu code in, i'd have written next to nothing before giving up on Eu. I haven't tried Judith's editor yet, i'm just waiting on bugs to be run off. Kat
18. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com Dec 02, 2001
- 354 views
David: I don't understand your comment about military time ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Cuny" <dcuny at LANSET.COM> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey > > rforno wrote: > > > Yes, you are right, ed has many, many problems. But, according > > to what you tell, it seems to me that ed was not only your first > > attempt to use Euphoria, but the first one to use *any* program ;) > > No, sadly that was my actual experience using ED *last night*. I was > thinking that perhaps Robert had updated ED since my initial experience with > it, but that appears not to be the case. > > Then again, I probably haven't patched EE to user normal time instead of > military time... > > -- David Cuny > > > >
19. Re: ed.ex / non-gui editors - survey
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Dec 02, 2001
- 367 views
rforno wrote: > I don't understand your comment about military time EE displays the hour in the range 0-23, instead of 1-12am/pm. -- David Cuny