1. Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by jcowgar at bhsys.com Nov 12, 2001
- 570 views
When was the last time Euphoria (the language) was updated? What is the general feeling about Euphoria's future? I am new to Euphoria and like it so well, I registered it. I am now just curious about what people think about it's future. Thanks, Jeremy Cowgar - jcowgar at bhsys.com
2. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net Nov 12, 2001
- 558 views
> When was the last time Euphoria (the language) was updated? What is the general feeling about Euphoria's > future? > > I am new to Euphoria and like it so well, I registered it. I am now just curious about what people think about it's > future. > > Thanks, > > Jeremy Cowgar - jcowgar at bhsys.com Euphoria is a fairly easy, power rich, an fast aswell computer language. There are several people who have more than 5 yrs with this language that still maintain a presence on the Listserve. I personally have some commercial quality application developed and currently being developed in Euphoria. There are only a hand full of things I know of that arent implemented in Euphoria *YET* The Source to Euphoria will be available soon and this will I think take Euphoria to the next level and make Rob a richer man than he already is. Not to mention making Euphoria a choice above other languages such Basic, Java and well, just about anyother language out there. "My Opinion"
3. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Igor Kachan <kinz at peterlink.ru> Nov 12, 2001
- 533 views
Hi Jeremy, ---------- > ïÔ: jcowgar at bhsys.com > ëÏÍÕ: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > ôÅÍÁ: Euphoria's Future? > äÁÔÁ: Monday, November 12, 2001 21:28 > > When was the last time Euphoria (the language) was updated? What is the general feeling about Euphoria's > future? > > I am new to Euphoria and like it so well, I registered it. I am now just curious about what people think about it's > future. > > Thanks, > > Jeremy Cowgar - jcowgar at bhsys.com Rob please don't read this text below, you know about these things well enough Well. Some people think Euphoria's Future was & is & will be great! But if without jokes, there is the very interesting file in EUPHORIA\DOC directory - relnotes.doc. 40K of very useful information, read please, this reading is pure euphoria, yes yes, without jokes really Also, visit please http://www.rapideuphoria.com/news.htm and click on the links in http://www.rapideuphoria.com/othersit.htm 59 countries with registered users in the World, about 50 personal Eu sites in the World, 300 authors contribute their programs to RDS Archive, which is 800 excellent packages for Dos-32, Win-32, Linux now. You can just download any of that 800 packages and read readme.txt files to see what people think about Euphoria. There is very good thinking in these files. Don't believe, check, inspect & check again. Regards, Igor Kachan kinz at peterlink.ru
4. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Kat <gertie at PELL.NET> Nov 12, 2001
- 512 views
On 12 Nov 2001, at 13:28, jcowgar at bhsys.com wrote: > > When was the last time Euphoria (the language) was updated? What is the > general > feeling about Euphoria's future? > > I am new to Euphoria and like it so well, I registered it. I am now just > curious > about what people think about it's future. I like Eu. With a few exceptions, it has everything i liked about Turbo Pascal, but it is lacking a few things i liked about pascal. I still say Rob would do good to add a few of the tricks from mirc. And the local goto command. But except for those hurdles, and a better win32 stepping debugger, you get a lot for your money with Euphoria. Kat
5. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Sabal.Mike at notations.com Nov 12, 2001
- 561 views
Hello, Jeremy, Welcome to Euphoria. I have been using Euphoria since version 1.4 in 1996 and have been very happy with the language. Regardless of many people's expectations, however; Euphoria is not the be-all end-all language many wish it would be. It is an excellent language for many applications; and I assure you that it will be a well-used addition to your programming arsenal. The core language, development tools, libraries, and applications of Euphoria are constantly being updated by a devoted team of users. There are very few cases where I would choose C, C++, Java, or Visual Basic over Euphoria for a particular task; but those cases do exist. As long as you approach Euphoria with realistic expectations, I believe you will find Euphoria to be your favorite tool on your PC or network. Michael J. Sabal >>> jcowgar at bhsys.com 11/12/01 01:28PM >>> When was the last time Euphoria (the language) was updated? What is the general feeling about Euphoria's future? I am new to Euphoria and like it so well, I registered it. I am now just curious about what people think about it's future. Thanks, Jeremy Cowgar - jcowgar at bhsys.com
6. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by jstory at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Nov 12, 2001
- 548 views
On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 jcowgar at bhsys.com wrote: > What is the general feeling about Euphoria's > future? I'm gonna stick my head out for it to get chopped off. I still hold to the old-fashioned weird theory that the superior product wins, even tho it seems everyone disagrees. By "superior" I mean superior in a given context; between two products, each can be superior to the other in its own context and each will win over the other in its own segment of the market. Between Euphoria and C++/C#: Euphoria will win over C++/C# where simplicity is more important than efficiency. C++ and C# will win over Euphoria where efficiency is more important than simplicity. ( Unless the E2C translator .... ) As computers get more powerful, efficiency of programming languages gets less important. ( e.g. the trend from compilers to interpreters ) This means that the advantage in speed that C++/C# has over Euphoria will become less important as computers get faster. As the computer world gets more complicated, simplicity of programming languages gets more important. From the above facts, I predict that Euphoria will become a popular language. ( sticking my neck out for it to get chopped off ) On the other hand, the history of computers and programming suggests that the future is hard to predict. How many people predicted linux? the internet explosion? the rapid increase of computer power? the domination of Microsoft? the rise of Netscape? the fall of Netscape? Bill Gates made a laughing stock out of himself by predicting that nobody will ever need more than 640K of RAM. Jerry Story
7. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com Nov 12, 2001
- 537 views
I think the future of Euphoria does not depend on its features, which are extremely good, but on the marketing effort behind it. I developed a bunch of programs in Euphoria with much more ease than in any other language, except perhaps APL. Debugging at the source code is very good in Euphoria. Speedwise, Euphoria is the best, I think, of all interpreted languages. I also think Euphoria is perfect to teach programming to beginners, without sacrifying its usefulness for advanced applications. In other words, an Euphoria program is simple if the task is simple, and unavoidably complex if the task is complex, but less complex than, for example, a C program, with its awkward pointers and memory allocations. ----- Original Message ----- From: <jcowgar at bhsys.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: Euphoria's Future? > > When was the last time Euphoria (the language) was updated? What is the general feeling about Euphoria's > future? > > I am new to Euphoria and like it so well, I registered it. I am now just curious about what people think about it's > future. > > Thanks, > > Jeremy Cowgar - jcowgar at bhsys.com > > > >
8. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Jasper_Holshuijsen at dsw.nl Nov 13, 2001
- 544 views
Hi Rforno, I was going to react to this topic but you took the words right off my mouth. Marketing is the key to Euphoria's future. It needs a shiny box and a good manual. I believe the strength of Euphoria is that it's understandable for beginners but at the same time usefull for experts. Bye, Jasper. rforno@tutopia .com To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> cc: 13-11-2001 Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? 02:43 Please respond to EUforum I think the future of Euphoria does not depend on its features, which are extremely good, but on the marketing effort behind it. I developed a bunch of programs in Euphoria with much more ease than in any other language, except perhaps APL. Debugging at the source code is very good in Euphoria. Speedwise, Euphoria is the best, I think, of all interpreted languages. I also think Euphoria is perfect to teach programming to beginners, without sacrifying its usefulness for advanced applications. In other words, an Euphoria program is simple if the task is simple, and unavoidably complex if the task is complex, but less complex than, for example, a C program, with its awkward pointers and memory allocations. ----- Original Message ----- From: <jcowgar at bhsys.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: Euphoria's Future? > > When was the last time Euphoria (the language) was updated? What is the general feeling about Euphoria's > future? > > I am new to Euphoria and like it so well, I registered it. I am now just curious about what people think about it's > future. > > Thanks, > > Jeremy Cowgar - jcowgar at bhsys.com > >
9. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by pseudonomus at yahoo.com Nov 13, 2001
- 545 views
MTS, oh MTS, where arth thou? : P!
10. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by freeplay at mailandnews.com Nov 13, 2001
- 556 views
At 09:10 13/11/01 +0100, you wrote: <snip> >It needs a shiny box and a good manual. <snip> xxxxxxxxxxx I disagree on one point. Euphoria doesn't need a good manual because it already comes with one far far better than "good" - "excellently superb" is a better description. The documentation (i.e. "manual") that is supplied with Euphoria is the best example of clearly written, easy to understand and (thanks to the hot link ability of HTML) the easiest to navigate I have ever come across in twenty years of reading such material. I believe this is one of the reasons why so many people have taken the time (at no cost) to translate the documentation to other languages. High quality documentation for any product is essential for it's success but a shiny box to put it in is, IMHO, not Keep up the good work all. Regards, FP.
11. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com Nov 13, 2001
- 566 views
I agree on the comments for the manual. It is a very good piece of work. But what is really meant by a "shiny box"? Maybe my English is not enough to understand this idiomatic expression :). ----- Original Message ----- From: <freeplay at mailandnews.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? > > At 09:10 13/11/01 +0100, you wrote: > <snip> > >It needs a shiny box and a good manual. > <snip> > xxxxxxxxxxx > > I disagree on one point. Euphoria doesn't need a good manual because it > already comes with one far far better than "good" - "excellently superb" is > a better description. The documentation (i.e. "manual") that is supplied > with Euphoria is the best example of clearly written, easy to understand > and (thanks to the hot link ability of HTML) the easiest to navigate I have > ever come across in twenty years of reading such material. I believe this > is one of the reasons why so many people have taken the time (at no cost) > to translate the documentation to other languages. > > High quality documentation for any product is essential for it's success > but a shiny box to put it in is, IMHO, not > > Keep up the good work all. > > Regards, > > FP. > > > >
12. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Kat <gertie at PELL.NET> Nov 13, 2001
- 564 views
On 13 Nov 2001, at 22:20, rforno at tutopia.com wrote: > > I agree on the comments for the manual. It is a very good piece of work. > But what is really meant by a "shiny box"? It's almost just what it says: a shiney box! Shrink wrapped, fancy colors, like boxes that microsoft sells OSs in. The box is part of the advertising for the product. Kat > Maybe my English is not enough to > understand this idiomatic expression :). ----- Original Message ----- From: > <freeplay at mailandnews.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: > Tuesday, > November 13, 2001 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? > > > > At 09:10 13/11/01 +0100, you wrote: > > <snip> > > >It needs a shiny box and a good manual. > > <snip> > > xxxxxxxxxxx > > > > I disagree on one point. Euphoria doesn't need a good manual because it > > already comes with one far far better than "good" - "excellently superb" > is > > a better description. The documentation (i.e. "manual") that is supplied > > with > > Euphoria is the best example of clearly written, easy to understand and > > (thanks to the hot link ability of HTML) the easiest to navigate I > have > > ever come across in twenty years of reading such material. I believe this > > is > > one of the reasons why so many people have taken the time (at no cost) to > > translate the documentation to other languages. > > > > High quality documentation for any product is essential for it's success > > but a shiny box to put it in is, IMHO, not > > > > Keep up the good work all. > > > > Regards, > > > > FP. > > > > > > >
13. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Nov 13, 2001
- 569 views
I can imagine that the "shiny box" can be a metaphor for placing the product in more prominent position for consumers, as well as making it look attractive. The "box" can be seen by the mass market if it is in shops; literally on the shelf. But the first question that RDS must ask itself is 'do we want to have a huge market to support?'. If they don't, then they are going about it the right way now. If they do, then they have to get into additional forms of product placement and marketing. This will bring on new issues that one gets automatically when one has a large customer base - and maybe Robert and Juno just don't want to get into that scene. >From a selfish point of view, I'd love to see the product expand its customer >base. I might have a better chance of it providing me with an income if more people (and companies) wanted to use Euphoria. I keep hoping that one day I'll walk into a store and see Euphoria on the front cover (and CD) of PC and Linux magazines. The current product has wide functionality, has good documentation, is stable, and is well supported. All of these things can be improved of course, but it is a very "sellable" product right now. I'm sure the path to a larger market will include a "make-over" to focus less on the character- based apps (MS-DOS and Linux), which are perceived as old-style, and more on the GUI and Games apps. To get into companies, it needs serious database and internet connectivity and tools. By serious, I mean either officially supported by RDS or by some solid organisation such as Borland, Microsoft, Oracle, or IBM. ---- Derek 14/11/2001 2:05:18 PM, Kat <gertie at PELL.NET> wrote: > >On 13 Nov 2001, at 22:20, rforno at tutopia.com wrote: > >> >> I agree on the comments for the manual. It is a very good piece of work. >> But what is really meant by a "shiny box"? > >It's almost just what it says: a shiney box! Shrink wrapped, fancy colors, like > >boxes that microsoft sells OSs in. The box is part of the advertising for the >product. > >Kat > > >> Maybe my English is not enough to >> understand this idiomatic expression :). ----- Original Message ----- From: >> <freeplay at mailandnews.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: >> Tuesday, >> November 13, 2001 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? >> >> >> > At 09:10 13/11/01 +0100, you wrote: >> > <snip> >> > >It needs a shiny box and a good manual. >> > <snip> >> > xxxxxxxxxxx >> > >> > I disagree on one point. Euphoria doesn't need a good manual because it >> > already comes with one far far better than "good" - "excellently superb" >> is >> > a better description. The documentation (i.e. "manual") that is supplied >> > with >> > Euphoria is the best example of clearly written, easy to understand and >> > (thanks to the hot link ability of HTML) the easiest to navigate I >> have >> > ever come across in twenty years of reading such material. I believe this >> > is >> > one of the reasons why so many people have taken the time (at no cost) to >> > translate the documentation to other languages. >> > >> > High quality documentation for any product is essential for it's success >> > but a shiny box to put it in is, IMHO, not >> > >> > Keep up the good work all. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > FP. >> > >> > > > >
14. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net Nov 13, 2001
- 610 views
From: Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> > I can imagine that the "shiny box" can be a metaphor for placing the product in more prominent > position for consumers, as well as making it look attractive. The "box" can be seen by the mass > market if it is in shops; literally on the shelf. > > But the first question that RDS must ask itself is 'do we want to have a huge market to support?'. > If they don't, then they are going about it the right way now. If they do, then they have to get > into additional forms of product placement and marketing. This will bring on new issues that one > gets automatically when one has a large customer base - and maybe Robert and Juno just don't want to > get into that scene. > > >From a selfish point of view, I'd love to see the product expand its customer base. I might have a > better chance of it providing me with an income if more people (and companies) wanted to use > Euphoria. I keep hoping that one day I'll walk into a store and see Euphoria on the front cover (and > CD) of PC and Linux magazines. > > The current product has wide functionality, has good documentation, is stable, and is well > supported. All of these things can be improved of course, but it is a very "sellable" product right > now. I'm sure the path to a larger market will include a "make-over" to focus less on the character- > based apps (MS-DOS and Linux), which are perceived as old-style, and more on the GUI and Games apps. > To get into companies, it needs serious database and internet connectivity and tools. By serious, I > mean either officially supported by RDS or by some solid organisation such as Borland, Microsoft, > Oracle, or IBM. > > ---- > Derek I too hope that Euphoria would hurry up and become more main stream.... I truly think Rob has the right idea releasing the code to the interpreter, creating a two pass binder "hopefully external for those who dont bind but Compile .. Hint to Rob there!" and making a move toward namespace. Euphoria will be so easy now that we'll have that two pass, imagine never again having to include constants and defining c_func/procs by having one huge file that everyone can feed off of. Huge + for me! Derek, Jiri and many other Speed freaks >"just a pun, guys." that write greatly optimized code and now that we're going to have the source to Euphoria....look out world here comes Euphoria... Huge + for RDS Personally, having the source, the first thing Im going to attempt is a thread library... This is the only thing that I haven't worked out with API coding in Euphoria for Win. I really enjoy Euphoria, Thanks a bunch RDS... Euman euman at bellsouth.net
15. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Igor Kachan <kinz at peterlink.ru> Nov 14, 2001
- 546 views
Yes FP, yes & yes !!! Documentation of Euphoria is wonderful, and my native language is not English, it is Russian. I had very large practice of writing and editing of Russian naval/electronics scientific texts (more than 10 years), and I can say Euphoria's English documentation is crystal. I understand it very well without translation into Russian, in English as in my native language. This is the very rare thing so clear and exact expression of powerful programming ideas in strongly concrete manual for strongly concrete programming practice, and in very compact form. This documentation is the *ideal* *instruction*. But look for ideas in any instruction on OOP and you'll find "the object is any thing, iron or car or bread or ... for example. Just remember for future". Very clear for programmer, no ? Just remember ... OK ... I'll rememmmber ... I'mmmm very clever programmmer ... hmmmm ... But C++'s and Java's manuals and books are full of such the "ideas". Yes, English Euphoria documentation is so excellent that it is the very difficult thing to corrupt this documentation with translation into other languages My Russian readers say: Russian docs are clear and exact thank you Robert very much! (But Rob says he doesn't understand Russian at all, I do not believe to him, but can not examine his Russian here There was the printed manual in CE pakage earlier, but any one can prepare such the manual on his/her taste with the color printer now, I think. Regards, Igor Kachan kinz at peterlink.ru ---------- > Îò: freeplay at mailandnews.com > Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > Òåìà: Re: Euphoria's Future? > Äàòà: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 00:37 > > At 09:10 13/11/01 +0100, you wrote: > <snip> > >It needs a shiny box and a good manual. > <snip> > xxxxxxxxxxx > > I disagree on one point. Euphoria doesn't need a good manual because it > already comes with one far far better than "good" - "excellently superb" is > a better description. The documentation (i.e. "manual") that is supplied > with Euphoria is the best example of clearly written, easy to understand > and (thanks to the hot link ability of HTML) the easiest to navigate I have > ever come across in twenty years of reading such material. I believe this > is one of the reasons why so many people have taken the time (at no cost) > to translate the documentation to other languages. > > High quality documentation for any product is essential for it's success > but a shiny box to put it in is, IMHO, not > > Keep up the good work all. > > Regards, > > FP.
16. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Igor Kachan <kinz at peterlink.ru> Nov 15, 2001
- 546 views
OK Henry, I know very well about sun-spots and there is nothing *perfect* in the World But who says that is pure Eu's blame, not W2k or NT ? 2.2 was before W2k, it seems, no ? I have no W2k and NT, and what is the *standard...redirection"? I read my manual on Win-95, there is...absolutelly nothing... about any redirections...yes yes, my manual is Russian localisation of MS firm docs. Yes, absolutelly nothing ... And if Eu *can* then it is not *always must make and does make*, just because of Eu is not a single program on your machine. My enthusiasm is unshakeable and steadfast ! Best regards, Igor Kachan kinz at peterlink.ru ---------- > Îò: Henri.Goffin at sbs.be > Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > Òåìà: RE: Euphoria's Future? > Äàòà: Thursday, November 15, 2001 15:58 > > Hi all! > > I'm sorry if I spoil a little bit the unlimited enthusiasm expressed so far but Euphoria suffers from a least one severe limitation that I already mentioned here. > > In the file bind.doc that comes with Euphoria 2.2 it is stated: > > " A bound executable file can handle standard input and output redirection. e.g. > > myprog.exe < file.in > file.out" > > This is simply not true, at least on NT/W2K platforms. The reason is the bound executable starts in a new console window that is unaware of the invoking window's environment. > > There is also the problem of a memory violation error that I have with a bound Euphoria program. The answer of Robert to my request for help was rather disappointing because too reminescent of Microsoft's favorite silver bullet: "reboot your system, maybe the problem will have disappeared". Who would dare build his/her business on such a basis? > > To conclude with a positive remark I have to say that I will continue to use Euphoria because it is a fine tool that has allowed me to write some useful programs, even with a professional looking GUI, at a fraction of the cost (in time and sweat and tears) that other languages (VB, C++, PERL, JAVA,...) would no doubt have implied. > > Kind regards, > > Henri Goffin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Igor Kachan [SMTP:kinz at peterlink.ru] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 11:44 AM > > To: EUforum > > Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? > > > > > > Yes FP, yes & yes !!! > > > > Documentation of Euphoria is wonderful, > > and my native language is not English, > > it is Russian. I had very large practice of > > writing and editing of Russian naval/electronics > > scientific texts (more than 10 years), and I can > > say Euphoria's English documentation is crystal. > > > > I understand it very well without translation > > into Russian, in English as in my native language. > > > > This is the very rare thing so clear and exact > > expression of powerful programming ideas in > > strongly concrete manual for strongly concrete > > programming practice, and in very compact form. > > > > This documentation is the *ideal* *instruction*. > > But look for ideas in any instruction on OOP > > and you'll find "the object is any thing, iron > > or car or bread or ... for example. Just > > remember for future". > > > > Very clear for programmer, no ? > > > > Just remember ... OK ... I'll rememmmber ... > > I'mmmm very clever programmmer ... hmmmm ... > > > > But C++'s and Java's manuals and books are > > full of such the "ideas". > > > > Yes, English Euphoria documentation is > > so excellent that it is the very difficult > > thing to corrupt this documentation > > with translation into other languages > > > > My Russian readers say: Russian docs are > > clear and exact thank you Robert very much! > > > > (But Rob says he doesn't understand > > Russian at all, I do not believe to him, > > but can not examine his Russian here > > > > There was the printed manual in CE pakage > > earlier, but any one can prepare such the > > manual on his/her taste with the color > > printer now, I think. > > > > Regards, > > Igor Kachan > > kinz at peterlink.ru > > > > ---------- > > > > Îò: freeplay at mailandnews.com > > > Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > > > Òåìà: Re: Euphoria's Future? > > > Äàòà: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 00:37 > > > > > > > > At 09:10 13/11/01 +0100, you wrote: > > > <snip> > > > >It needs a shiny box and a good manual. > > > <snip> > > > xxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > I disagree on one point. Euphoria doesn't need a good manual because it > > > already comes with one far far better than "good" - "excellently superb" > > is > > > a better description. The documentation (i.e. "manual") that is supplied > > > with Euphoria is the best example of clearly written, easy to understand > > > and (thanks to the hot link ability of HTML) the easiest to navigate I> > > have > > > ever come across in twenty years of reading such material. I believe > > this > > > is one of the reasons why so many people have taken the time (at no cost) > > > to translate the documentation to other languages. > > > > > > High quality documentation for any product is essential for it's success > > > but a shiny box to put it in is, IMHO, not > > > > > > Keep up the good work all. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > FP.
17. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Robert Craig <rds at RapidEuphoria.com> Nov 15, 2001
- 506 views
Henri Goffin writes: > This is simply not true, at least on NT/W2K platforms. > The reason is the bound executable starts in a new console > window that is unaware of the invoking window's environment. With the Euphoria source, you'll be able to build your own exw.exe that is more console-oriented. It should work with STDIN/STDOUT on any system. You just have to edit one line in the .bat file that I'll distribute with it. Maybe I'll make a version like that myself and upload it once 2.3 alpha is out. > There is also the problem of a memory violation error > that I have with a bound Euphoria program. The answer of > Robert to my request for help was rather disappointing because > too reminescent of Microsoft's favorite silver bullet: > "reboot your system, maybe the problem will have disappeared". > Who would dare build his/her business on such a basis? On Oct 5, 2001 I replied to you... R> In 2.3 the interpreter will have trace(3) which will allow you R> to log the exact Euphoria statement that was being executed R> when a machine-level crash like this occurred. R> Until then, you can insert print statements to pin down R> where the crash happens. Did you insert any print statements? If not, wait 10 days or so until trace(3) is available. You'll also be able to try the new 2-pass binder, although I doubt that a binding bug is the root cause of your problems. >From my experience these cases usually turn out to be a bug in the application that only shows up when it's bound (or it's Tuesday afternoon, or there's unusual sunspot activity, or ...) Regards, Rob Craig Rapid Deployment Software http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
18. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Euler German <efgerman at myrealbox.com> Nov 15, 2001
- 572 views
<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Hi all! I could only read it, seat and stay right where I am but I think there's more than just second every good word (as these from Derek) and blame some that I'll keep to myself. Well, I won't. I do agree that Euphoria is a great language, great product, easy, powerful, what else. Ok, it has some lacks but it will be improved. It's getting better all the time... like the music! Now, back to the real world (and not just to this list), Euphoria has a need to be spread all over, quickly. Talking to Travis Beaty once, I told him that I didn't found a single book about Euphoria. I really don't need them that much, but some people do, very badly. You know what? These people will learn VB, Delphi, Perl, Python, AWK, what else, because they can find books about each one of these languages, either in English or (many cases) on their own language. Fortunately, seems that Travis will write a book about Euphoria soon and I truly hope that it could become a reference to the language. He already did a fantastic job: "The Encyclopaedia" in winhelp format. All Euphoria manuals plus those from major libraries, packed in one single searchable file, is a must! I'm trying to translate it to my home language to make Euphoria accessible to non-English speaking people of my country that also do some programming. It’s a lot of work but it’ll be out some day... Do you want to know my humbly opinion? Books! Books are what we need most. The only tool to remove mists and myths over Euphoria. Let's take it to the common mortals. Have a nice day! -- Euler<bigger> German <smaller>On 14 Nov 2001, at 15:13, Derek Parnell wrote: > > I can imagine that the "shiny box" can be a metaphor for placing > the product in more prominent position for consumers, as well as > making it look attractive. The "box" can be seen by the mass > market if it is in shops; literally on the shelf. > > But the first question that RDS must ask itself is 'do we want > to have a huge market to support?'. If they don't, then they are > going about it the right way now. If they do, then they have to > get into additional forms of product placement and marketing. > This will bring on new issues that one gets automatically when > one has a large customer base - and maybe Robert and Juno just > don't want to get into that scene. > > From a selfish point of view, I'd love to see the product > expand its customer base. I might have a better chance of it > providing me with an income if more people (and companies) > wanted to use Euphoria. I keep hoping that one day I'll walk > into a store and see Euphoria on the front cover (and CD) of PC > and Linux magazines. > > The current product has wide functionality, has good > documentation, is stable, and is well supported. All of these > things can be improved of course, but it is a very "sellable" > product right now. I'm sure the path to a larger market will > include a "make-over" to focus less on the character- based apps > (MS-DOS and Linux), which are perceived as old-style, and more > on the GUI and Games apps. To get into companies, it needs > serious database and internet connectivity and tools. By > serious, I mean either officially supported by RDS or by some > solid organisation such as Borland, Microsoft, Oracle, or IBM. > > ---- > Derek > > 14/11/2001 2:05:18 PM, Kat <<gertie at PELL.NET> wrote: > > > > >On 13 Nov 2001, at 22:20, rforno at tutopia.com wrote: > > > >> > >> I agree on the comments for the manual. It is a very good piece of work. > >> But what is really meant by a "shiny box"? > > > >It's almost just what it says: a shiney box! Shrink wrapped, fancy colors, > >like > >boxes that microsoft sells OSs in. The box is part of the advertising for the > > > >product. > > > >Kat > > > > > >> Maybe my English is not enough to > >> understand this idiomatic expression :). ----- Original Message ----- From: > >> <<freeplay at mailandnews.com> To: "EUforum" <<EUforum at topica.com> Sent: > >> Tuesday, > >> November 13, 2001 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? > >> > >> > >> > At 09:10 13/11/01 +0100, you wrote: > >> > <<snip> > >> > >It needs a shiny box and a good manual. > >> > <<snip> > >> > xxxxxxxxxxx > >> > > >> > I disagree on one point. Euphoria doesn't need a good manual because it > >> > already comes with one far far better than "good" - "excellently superb" > >> is > >> > a better description. The documentation (i.e. "manual") that is supplied > >> > with > >> > Euphoria is the best example of clearly written, easy to understand and > >> > (thanks to the hot link ability of HTML) the easiest to navigate I > >> have > >> > ever come across in twenty years of reading such material. I believe > >> > this is > >> > one of the reasons why so many people have taken the time (at no cost) to > >> > translate the documentation to other languages. > >> > > >> > High quality documentation for any product is essential for it's success > >> > but a shiny box to put it in is, IMHO, not > >> > > >> > Keep up the good work all. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > > >> > FP. > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > This email was sent to: efgerman at myrealbox.com > > Or send an email to: EUforum-unsubscribe at topica.com > > >
19. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Travis Beaty <travis_beaty at yahoo.com> Nov 15, 2001
- 552 views
Hello All! > Fortunately, seems that Travis will write a book about Euphoria soon and I > truly hope that it > could become a reference to the language. He already did a fantastic job: > "The Encyclopaedia" > in winhelp format. All Euphoria manuals plus those from major libraries, > packed in one single > searchable file, is a must! I'm trying to translate it to my home language to > make Euphoria > accessible to non-English speaking people of my country that also do some > programming. It’s > a lot of work but it’ll be out some day... <yelp_with_smile>Euler! You let out my secret!</yelp_with_smile> hehehehe Okay ... let me set the record a little straighter on this one. I am planning on writing a book on Euphoria: however, don't expect it to be available for quite a while. I am still hammering on the new installer code, and that is the top priority at this moment (other than those useless things like working and getting money, and other meaningless endeavors). It is basically an outcropping of my "Encyclopaedia Euphoria" project, which met with so-so enthusiasm. Besides, I can't really write a lot on it until Euphoria 2.3 -- at least the alpha -- is out and I have base documentation for namespaces and other added features. And, since I'll be trying to provide the very documentation spoken of, there will be a lot of research to do with the respective library authors. As in, "If I code in click_ruby_slippers() three times in a row, will my program end up in Kansas?" Travis Beaty Evans, Colorado.
20. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Nov 15, 2001
- 558 views
Jerry Story wrote: > Here's my excuse to bring up the subject of gtk.e, > a library started by David Cuny but not finished. This > library is (I guess) mainly for the linux world but is > (I guess) supposed to be cross-platform. My personal preference would be to use wxWindows: http://www.wxwindows.org I've already written a set 'generic' wrappers that can be used to glue wxWindows to C/C++ scripting languages. As a sort of 'proof of concept', I'm using them in my own Basic interpeter: http://wxbasic.sourceforge.net Ironically, I started out the project writing wrappers for Euphoria, but since the source wasn't available, I had to set up my own test platform. That 'test platform' eventually turned into wxBasic. The wrappers have even been used by someone else to create a wxWindows enabled version of the Lua. Once Robert releases Euphoria, I'll trying creating a wxWindows enabled version of Euphoria. -- David Cuny
21. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Euler German <efgerman at myrealbox.com> Nov 15, 2001
- 539 views
On 15 Nov 2001, at 21:40, Travis Beaty wrote: > > <yelp_with_smile>Euler! You let out my secret!</yelp_with_smile> hehehehe > Good grief! I did know that it should be a secret! Sorry for turning lights on before door opening... hehe. BTW, did you set up your PDS site already? Let us know. Soon, please! Cheers! --Euler (Over here is 4:30AM now! I just dunno how my wife can stand me...)
22. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Kat <gertie at PELL.NET> Nov 15, 2001
- 539 views
On 15 Nov 2001, at 22:11, David Cuny wrote: > > Jerry Story wrote: > > > Here's my excuse to bring up the subject of gtk.e, > > a library started by David Cuny but not finished. This > > library is (I guess) mainly for the linux world but is > > (I guess) supposed to be cross-platform. > > My personal preference would be to use wxWindows: > > http://www.wxwindows.org > > I've already written a set 'generic' wrappers that can be used to glue > wxWindows to C/C++ scripting languages. As a sort of 'proof of concept', I'm > using them in my own Basic interpeter: > > http://wxbasic.sourceforge.net But to run wxbasic, we must replace the task manager in windose with wxwindows? The wxwindows site says the api calls for *nix are different than for windoze, so we still have the non-portable programs. What i was thinking was being able to write an Eu program on my win95, and then upload to a shell server running *nix, and it works. I still see no way to do it. Kat
23. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Nov 16, 2001
- 556 views
Kat wrote: > But to run wxbasic, we must replace the task manager > in windose with wxwindows? No. > The wxwindows site says the api calls for *nix are > different than for windoze, so we still have the > non-portable programs. I'm not sure what you were on the site looking at. The wxWindows API is portable across Windows, *nix and Mac platforms. Certain features (like ODBC) are by their nature non-portable, but the vast majority of the wxWindows API is portable. Is there a specific part of the API you are referring to? > What i was thinking was being able to write an Eu > program on my win95, and then upload to a shell > server running *nix, and it works. I still see no > way to do it. Urm... I can take the programs that I've written in wxBasic and run them either under the Windows or Linux versions. There are occasional differences, but for the most part, these are minor and easy to fix. -- David Cuny
24. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Kat <gertie at PELL.NET> Nov 16, 2001
- 554 views
On 16 Nov 2001, at 8:08, David Cuny wrote: > > Kat wrote: > > > But to run wxbasic, we must replace the task manager > > in windose with wxwindows? > > No. > > > > The wxwindows site says the api calls for *nix are > > different than for windoze, so we still have the > > non-portable programs. > > I'm not sure what you were on the site looking at. The wxWindows API is > portable across Windows, *nix and Mac platforms. Certain features (like > ODBC) are by their nature non-portable, but the vast majority of the > wxWindows API is portable. > > Is there a specific part of the API you are referring to? Since the non-portable calls were not named, i was looking at them as un- named gotchas. > > What i was thinking was being able to write an Eu > > program on my win95, and then upload to a shell > > server running *nix, and it works. I still see no > > way to do it. > > Urm... I can take the programs that I've written in wxBasic and run them > either under the Windows or Linux versions. There are occasional > differences, but for the most part, these are minor and easy to fix. But you are making calls to the API of wxwindows, not to the OS's API. Where is the wxwindows in the scheme of things, imbedded in your wxBasic, or a dll on my machine, or ? Kat
25. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by rforno at tutopia.com Nov 16, 2001
- 539 views
Were the planets properly aligned? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Craig" <rds at RapidEuphoria.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? > > Henri Goffin writes: > > This is simply not true, at least on NT/W2K platforms. > > The reason is the bound executable starts in a new console > > window that is unaware of the invoking window's environment. > > With the Euphoria source, you'll be able to build your > own exw.exe that is more console-oriented. It should work > with STDIN/STDOUT on any system. You just have to edit > one line in the .bat file that I'll distribute with it. Maybe I'll make a version > like that myself and upload it once 2.3 alpha is out. > > > There is also the problem of a memory violation error > > that I have with a bound Euphoria program. The answer of > > Robert to my request for help was rather disappointing because > > too reminescent of Microsoft's favorite silver bullet: > > "reboot your system, maybe the problem will have disappeared". > > Who would dare build his/her business on such a basis? > > On Oct 5, 2001 I replied to you... > > R> In 2.3 the interpreter will have trace(3) which will allow you > R> to log the exact Euphoria statement that was being executed > R> when a machine-level crash like this occurred. > > R> Until then, you can insert print statements to pin down > R> where the crash happens. > > Did you insert any print statements? > If not, wait 10 days or so until trace(3) is available. > You'll also be able to try the new 2-pass binder, > although I doubt that a binding bug is the > root cause of your problems. > >From my experience these cases usually turn out > to be a bug in the application that only shows up > when it's bound (or it's Tuesday afternoon, or there's > unusual sunspot activity, or ...) > > Regards, > Rob Craig > Rapid Deployment Software > http://www.RapidEuphoria.com > > > >
26. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by missmanp at cfw.com Nov 16, 2001
- 514 views
Does the POSIX interface under NT meat the criteria of the API? If so, was that same POSIX interface included in Windows XP, or even in other members of the Windows family? Just a thought. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kat" <gertie at PELL.NET> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: Euphoria's Future? > > But to run wxbasic, we must replace the task manager in windose with > wxwindows? The wxwindows site says the api calls for *nix are different than > for windoze, so we still have the non-portable programs. What i was thinking > was being able to write an Eu program on my win95, and then upload to a > shell server running *nix, and it works. I still see no way to do it. > > Kat
27. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Nov 16, 2001
- 549 views
Kat wrote: >> Is there a specific part of the API you are referring to? > > Since the non-portable calls were not named, i was looking > at them as un-named gotchas. I asked that poorly. Where on the wxWindows site did it talk about the API being non-portable? > But you are making calls to the API of wxwindows, not to the > OS's API. Where is the wxwindows in the scheme of things, > imbedded in your wxBasic, or a dll on my machine, or ? Well, on a conceptual level, wxWindows attempts to map calls to the native API. So on Windows, it creates native controls (where possible), calls Windows system functions, etc. On Linux, it calls GTK/Motif (it can support both libraries, but the Motif port is apparently quite rusty) for the GUI, and the underlying OS for most of the other stuff. You can either statically bind the wxWindows library to your executable (which makes a larger executable) or create a dynamic DLL that goes along with your application. Did that answer the question? I'm not sure where there's confusion. -- David Cuny
28. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Travis Beaty <travis_beaty at yahoo.com> Nov 16, 2001
- 567 views
Hello all! > BTW, did you set up your PDS site already? Let us know. Soon, > please! I try to make a post about that a couple of days ago, but unfortunately, it does not appear to have made it through. (hehehe I've learned to quit getting so anal about that. hehehe) Apparently, my site was summarily removed from ProHosting because they found something in my website to be inappropriate. As far as what it was that was "inappropriate," I have no clue, other than the fact that I had to audacity to quote both the Bible and the Koran on the same page in my personal section. For the last month or so, most of my energy has gone into getting established here. This has been accomplished, so now things will begin to return to normal with me. So, in the next couple of days, I will start shopping around for some space on a local ISP here ... for all intents and purposes, I'm in the Denver metro area. Once that is done, I'll pay/send/fax the money and upload the PDS site there. The show (as far as the website is concerned) should be up and running within a week or so. Also ... by the end of the weekend, I'll have a prototype for the scripting language that will be used in the Euphoria Package Manager. It is currently beginning to gel on notebook paper -- once it is solidified, I'll scrape it off and send to the list to see what y'all think. Once I have a good idea what the language syntax will be, I'll build the EPM compiler, and once I have EPM files, I'll rebuild the installer to handle them. Travis Beaty Evans, Colorado
29. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by David Cuny <dcuny at LANSET.COM> Nov 19, 2001
- 544 views
Ray Smith wrote: > What is the future or wxBasic?? What are your > "current" aims for developing wxBasic?? There are two parts to wxBasic - the Basic interpreter, and the wxWindows wrappers. Each part is actually independant of each other. I plan on continuing work on both in the forseeable future. One of the reasons for releasing it on SourceForge was to get more visibility for the project. I've been trying to find someone willing to help with a Mac port (wxWindows runs under the Classic Mac OS and OS X), but so far without any luck. > Is your aim to develop a cross platform Visual Basic > "type" environment? No, for the moment I'm happy with text-based development. Maybe some time later I'll consider an IDE. Robin Dunn is in the process of wrapping the ScITE editor - which supports lots of cool features, like syntax coloring - into wxWindows. That will be a cool addition for any IDE. > You also mentioned you would/might add your wx > wrappers to Euphoria when the Euphoria source is > available. What incentive is there to do that if > you have your own interpreter? I'll certainly attempt it. Not having seen the Euphoria source, I can't predict how successful I will be. This whole project started out as an attempt to provide Euphoria with a cross-platform library. I've been advocating it for some time, and when I started writing the wxWindows wrappers, I needed *something* to code to. wxBasic was sort of a stand-in, and it became a project in it's own right. I've actually written my own version of the Euphoria sequence library, but it's not especially fun code. Garbage collection permeates everything you do, and it's unlikely that someone would actually work on the code other than me. So there's not a lot of point in taking that route. Plus, if the port goes well, I hope to convince Robert that releasing a wxWindows enabled version of Euphoria would be a good thing for his pocketbook. Time will tell. > How difficult would it be to remove the wxWindows > logic from the source code and produce a "simple" > basic interpreter? As the documentation points out, just compile core.c: gcc core.c -owxbasic.exe > Following on from that, how difficult would it be > to plug in other libraries (like Allegro games library, > FLTK GUI Library, Fox GUI library for examples) into > your basic interpreter? Stuff like Allegro is fairly straight-forward to wrap, because it's a C toolkit. C++ toolkits are more problematic to wrap. FTLK and Fox are both C++ toolkits. Not all the other toolkits allow dynamic creation of controls and assignment of callback at runtime - I vaguely recall one of those as having that limitation. Additionally, both FLTK and Fox are emulate controls, rather than use native controls on their platform. This is - In My Not So Humble Opinion - less than ideal. Besides, an emulated toolkit version of wxWindows (wxUniversal) it also availble, currently in alpha stage. So I don't see any of those toolkits as especially interesting. The code that I have for wrapping C++ code could probably be adapted for other libraries, but given the above issues, I don't see any need to do that. > How has the response been from the wxWindows community > regarding wxBasic? Not enough to make me want to give up my day job. Most of the people are C++ coders, so it's not a solution to any problem they are facing. Calling it pre-alpha probably doesn't help attract people, either. People who have stumbled on it 'by accident' are pretty positive about it. There are a lot of versions of Basic out there, and wxBasic is a fairly niche sort of thing. Not everyone is interested in cross-platform capabilities. Personally, being able to write something like the Minesweeper demo in Windows, and then have it run with no modification under Linux is Very Cool. > Does wxBasic have any limitations? Lots of them, look at shared.h for some of the constants. The documentation talks about some of them. It's also given me a lot of ideas I'd like to try out with Euphoria. I think the release of the Euphoria source code could prove *very* interesting. It will be interesting to see how difficult it is to change Euphoria's behavior. For example, I've been itching to add Jiri's associative lists to Euphoria. If you have more wxBasic questions, feel free to ask me... Off the Euphoria mailing list, though. Thanks. -- David Cuny
30. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Igor Kachan <kinz at peterlink.ru> Nov 19, 2001
- 533 views
Hi Henri, ---------- > Îò: Henri.Goffin at sbs.be > Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > Òåìà: RE: Euphoria's Future? > Äàòà: Monday, November 19, 2001 16:29 <snip> >my prog crashes before executing the first statement. >Probably during the init phase >(heap allocation or something). </snip> Try please: --- just the top of your prog puts(1,"1\n") while get_key()=-1 do end while -- the first your old statement include your_lib1.e -- just the first include puts(1,"2\n") while get_key()=-1 do end while include your_lib2.e -- just the second include ---- and so on If you see 1, push any key to go to the next statement, if you see 2, push any key to go to the next statement. and so on ... If it crashes on the 1st include then place in the 1st include on the top: puts(1,"1-1\n") while get_key()=-1 do end while and so on .... This method is the most powerful debugger. Try please, maybe the thing is not so sad ... Regards, Igor Kachan kinz at peterlink.ru
31. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net Nov 19, 2001
- 535 views
I have done this very many times, leave the A off of a define_c_func indicating that its ANSI-ASCII instead of Unicode...and the program not work.. Al Getz has a WinTrace module up on the EUCP. Euman euman at bellsouth.net
32. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Euler German <efgerman at myrealbox.com> Nov 19, 2001
- 556 views
On 19 Nov 2001, at 0:07, David Cuny wrote: > > If you have more wxBasic questions, feel free to ask me... Off the Euphoria > mailing list, though. > > Thanks. > > -- David Cuny > Oh, please don't! Though it might be seen as improper, it sure will bring us a different point of view. Comparing is the easiest way to pinpoint weaknesses and strengths. It can lead us to a better synthesis. Have a nice week! -- Euler
33. Re: Euphoria's Future?
- Posted by Igor Kachan <kinz at peterlink.ru> Nov 20, 2001
- 529 views
Hi Henri, ---------- > Îò: Henri.Goffin at sbs.be > Êîìó: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > Òåìà: RE: Euphoria's Future? > Äàòà: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:29 <snip> > But basically the problem is still potentially > there because your method did not allow me to > pinpoint one particular include. </snip> Try please: ----top of your prog global procedure b_(integer n) ? n while get_key()=-1 do end while end procedure b_(1) include f1.e -- your 1st include b_(2) include f2.e -- your 2nd include b_(3) include f3.e -- your 3rd include -- -- code -- ----bottom of your prog ----top of include f1.e b_(11) ---- code b_(12) ---- code b_(13) ----and so on ----bottom of include f1.e ---- top of include f2.e b_(21) ---- code b_(22) ---- code b_(23) ---- and so on ----bottom of include f1.e And so on You can "trace" with these b_() all your includes, when the ORDER of includes is *buggy*. > It seems to indicate there are include sequences > that are endowed with dark powers! > Maybe when they reproduce the pattern of some > ancient runes!!! > > Strange, isn't it??? (insert X-files theme here :-0) I have traced new win32lib.ew with this method and it shows my comctl32.dll is obsolete, exactly as one of the list's experts pointed. Try please once more, maybe things are not so strange and romantic Regards, Igor Kachan kinz at peterlink.ru