1. More projects?
- Posted by Jeremy Peterson <ptl99 at hotmail.com>
Dec 27, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 28, 2005
Are there any more libraries that anyone needs?
Jeremy
Edmund Burke: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do
nothing."
2. Re: More projects?
- Posted by C Bouzy <eucoder at hotmail.com>
Dec 27, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 28, 2005
Hi Jeremy,
There are lots of libraries that could be useful to others, but like I
pointed out in a previous post, EU needs non-blocking support for external
dlls. Maybe you should try to solve that problem? I would like to see a good
video lib or CD burning Lib wrapped.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
3. Re: More projects?
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Dec 27, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 28, 2005
C Bouzy wrote:
>
> Hi Jeremy,
>
> There are lots of libraries that could be useful to others, but like I
> pointed out in a previous post, EU needs non-blocking support for external
> dlls. Maybe you should try to solve that problem? I would like to see a good
> video lib or CD burning Lib wrapped.
>
>
> ----If you continue to do what you have always done,
> you will get what you have always gotten.----
Agreed, however, non-blocking support would need to work on Windows, Linux, and
FreeBSD with both DLLs and SOs. Having it only work with Windows DLLs is
unacceptable.
Regards,
Vincent
4. Re: More projects?
- Posted by Jeremy Peterson <ptl99 at hotmail.com>
Dec 27, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 28, 2005
Vincent wrote:
>
> C Bouzy wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jeremy,
> >
> > There are lots of libraries that could be useful to others, but like I
> > pointed out in a previous post, EU needs non-blocking support for external
> > dlls. Maybe you should try to solve that problem? I would like to see a good
> > video lib or CD burning Lib wrapped.
> >
> >
> > ----If you continue to do what you have always done,
> > you will get what you have always gotten.----
>
> Agreed, however, non-blocking support would need to work on Windows, Linux,
> and FreeBSD with both DLLs and SOs. Having it only work with Windows DLLs is
> unacceptable.
>
>
> Regards,
> Vincent
Sounds like a job for Rob to me.
Jeremy
Edmund Burke: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do
nothing."
5. Re: More projects?
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 13:00:05 -0800, Jeremy Peterson
<guest at RapidEuphoria.com> wrote:
>Sounds like a job for Rob to me.
Sounds like a job for Rob to put off forever to me.
SCNR
Pete
6. Re: More projects?
Well, it doesn't sound as important, but an up to date MySQL wrap would be nice!
Alex
7. Re: More projects?
Pete Lomax wrote:
> >Sounds like a job for Rob to me.
> Sounds like a job for Rob to put off forever to me.
Not forever...just not the near future. I hope he does it soon, it is
time it is added.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
8. Re: More projects?
Vincent wrote:
> Agreed, however, non-blocking support would need to work on Windows, Linux,
> and FreeBSD with both DLLs and SOs. Having it only work with Windows DLLs is
> unacceptable.
You ever hear the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none"? That is EU
wrapped up in a nutshell. So much focus is being placed on the cross
platform capability, and because of that all platforms are suffering.
I have nothing against Linux and FreeBSD users, but Linux nor FreeBSD
will ever replace Windows, and more focus needs to be placed on supporting
what the majority of users here use EU for, and that is Windows programming.
I understand Robert cannot add everything requested by users, and that is
why he should allow third parties to license and further develop the RDS
version of EU. That is THE ONLY WAY the language will mature.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
9. Re: More projects?
Jeremy,
Why don't you work on a app with a GUI front-end that can load an external
DLL and automatically wrap it. That would be something almost everyone here
could use, and it would save a coder a ton of work and time.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
10. Re: More projects?
C Bouzy wrote:
>
> You ever hear the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none"? That is EU
> wrapped up in a nutshell. So much focus is being placed on the cross
> platform capability, and because of that all platforms are suffering.
> I have nothing against Linux and FreeBSD users, but Linux nor FreeBSD
> will ever replace Windows, and more focus needs to be placed on supporting
> what the majority of users here use EU for, and that is Windows programming.
> I understand Robert cannot add everything requested by users, and that is
> why he should allow third parties to license and further develop the RDS
> version of EU. That is THE ONLY WAY the language will mature.
>
> ----If you continue to do what you have always done,
> you will get what you have always gotten.----
If I wanted to use a language that only ran on Windows, I'd just use Visual
Basic and C# plus the .NET framework. Microsoft .NET and WinFX are a clear
indication where Windows programming is headed and where Euphoria currently is
not! If this trend continues, it's probable many years in the future, Euphoria
would still only support the Win32 API, which by then would have became obsolete
and rarely used with new software development. This could render Euphoria as a
language only acceptable for Unix based OSes (Linux, FreeBSD, MacOS), assuming
they dont change drastically in the foreseeable future.
With this said, it's important that RDS value the other supported OSes equally
as much. In order to protect the language from crippling on other platforms if
support for a specific platform erodes away, the majority of features added to
Euphoria should become available across all supported platforms.
Regards,
Vincent
11. Re: More projects?
Vincent wrote:
> With this said, it's important that RDS value the other supported OSes equally
> as much. In order to protect the language from crippling on other platforms
> if support for a specific platform erodes away, the majority of features added
> to Euphoria should become available across all supported platforms.
>
The Win32API will still be in use 7 years from now, it is not going
anywhere. Personally I do not see any major advantages of supporting
other OSes, especially when they only represent 5-7% of ALL computers
in the world. This means if there were only 1000 computer users in the
world, approximately 50 would have one of the OSes you mentioned. And
out of that 50, how many would be using EU?. So Robert is putting in all
his time and effort to support other platforms for a handful of users.
I remember when everyone said Linux would replace Windows, 7 years later
and Windows is still the dominate OS. Linux is open source and even the
commercial versions are dramatically cheaper than Windows, and Linux
still does not have half of the marketshare.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
12. Re: More projects?
C Bouzy wrote:
>
> Vincent wrote:
>
> > With this said, it's important that RDS value the other supported OSes
> > equally
> > as much. In order to protect the language from crippling on other platforms
> > if support for a specific platform erodes away, the majority of features
> > added
> > to Euphoria should become available across all supported platforms.
> >
>
> The Win32API will still be in use 7 years from now, it is not going
> anywhere. Personally I do not see any major advantages of supporting
> other OSes, especially when they only represent 5-7% of ALL computers
> in the world. This means if there were only 1000 computer users in the
> world, approximately 50 would have one of the OSes you mentioned. And
> out of that 50, how many would be using EU?. So Robert is putting in all
> his time and effort to support other platforms for a handful of users.
> I remember when everyone said Linux would replace Windows, 7 years later
> and Windows is still the dominate OS. Linux is open source and even the
> commercial versions are dramatically cheaper than Windows, and Linux
> still does not have half of the marketshare.
>
> ----If you continue to do what you have always done,
> you will get what you have always gotten.----
I don't know if it would be called a wrapper or if it could be done.
But I would like to see a program that converts win32lib programs to wxEuphoria.
That wouled solve everything.
Don Cole
A Bug is an un-documented feature.
A Feature is a documented Bug.
13. Re: More projects?
C Bouzy wrote:
>
> Vincent wrote:
>
> > With this said, it's important that RDS value the other supported OSes
> > equally
> > as much. In order to protect the language from crippling on other platforms
> > if support for a specific platform erodes away, the majority of features
> > added
> > to Euphoria should become available across all supported platforms.
> >
>
> The Win32API will still be in use 7 years from now, it is not going
> anywhere. Personally I do not see any major advantages of supporting
> other OSes, especially when they only represent 5-7% of ALL computers
> in the world. This means if there were only 1000 computer users in the
> world, approximately 50 would have one of the OSes you mentioned. And
> out of that 50, how many would be using EU?. So Robert is putting in all
> his time and effort to support other platforms for a handful of users.
> I remember when everyone said Linux would replace Windows, 7 years later
> and Windows is still the dominate OS. Linux is open source and even the
> commercial versions are dramatically cheaper than Windows, and Linux
> still does not have half of the marketshare.
>
Linux is not really ready for the desktop yet. There are still problems to
overcome, like driver problems and how to allow normal users to mount stuff.
One area where Linux has succeeded, though, is the server market, which it
currently dominates. If Rob wants to promote people to use Euphoria on servers
and do CGI with Euphoria, he will have to provide a Linux version.
Regards, Alexander Toresson
14. Re: More projects?
Hello Jeremy,
It would be nice to have an include file that
supports general file upload CGI requests.
I've started it several times but I always
found bugs in my code and I simply decided to
use another way (FTP or no upload at all).
But I think it would be a nice and useful
project...
Regards,
Salix
15. Re: More projects?
C Bouzy wrote:
> The Win32API will still be in use 7 years from now, it is not going
> anywhere. Personally I do not see any major advantages of supporting
> other OSes, especially when they only represent 5-7% of ALL computers
> in the world. This means if there were only 1000 computer users in the
> world, approximately 50 would have one of the OSes you mentioned. And
> out of that 50, how many would be using EU?. So Robert is putting in all
> his time and effort to support other platforms for a handful of users.
> I remember when everyone said Linux would replace Windows, 7 years later
> and Windows is still the dominate OS. Linux is open source and even the
> commercial versions are dramatically cheaper than Windows, and Linux
> still does not have half of the marketshare.
I bet a significant number of Euphoria programmers who use and write code for
both Windows and Linux, while others may use Linux period. I'm sure there are
even some who use the FreeBSD version, though not as many as with DOS or Linux.
Although I currently only use the Windows and DOS versions, I often write my code
with cross-platform in mind. Euphoria's support for multiple platforms gives me
piece of mind that I'm not just limited to one platform if I chose to switch to
Linux or BSD. I wouldn't be part of this community today if it wasn't for
Euphoria's multi-platform support, despite it's other obvious benefits. I'm just
no longer interested in any platform specific languages.
You suggest that the Windows 32 API will remain in use 7 years from now, but
fail to explain why the majority of developers would still wish to use an old
technology when they could use .NET or WinFX and gain much greater productivity
in almost every aspect of Windows software development. I am fairly certain it's
Microsoft's plan to phase out the aging Win32 API with the new WinFX
infrastructure by the end of this decade. While the existing APIs probably wont
be removed, their main purpose will likely become solely for supporting existing
Win32 applications and for software maintenance. Microsoft is confident though
that most of these projects will eventually be converted to the .NET so that
developers could benefit from their high-level object oriented programming
platform.
Needless to say, I believe any initiative at this point to hamper Euphoria
support across other platforms could have lethal consequences with an already
struggling language!
Regards,
Vincent
16. Re: More projects?
Alexander Toresson wrote:
> One area where Linux has succeeded, though, is the server market, which it
> currently
> dominates. If Rob wants to promote people to use Euphoria on servers and do
> CGI with Euphoria, he will have to provide a Linux version.
>
Yes I agree. When it comes to servers Linux is the dominate OS and I must
say more secure than Windows based servers. Even my company web server uses
Linux, and I would never use a Windows based server.
4 or 5 years ago I would have said Robert had a chance to capture part of
the server market, but it is too late. PHP and ASP are the dominate choice
for creating web solutions, and CGI type scripts are being phased out.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
17. Re: More projects?
> wasn't for Euphoria's multi-platform support, despite it's other obvious
> benefits.
> I'm just no longer interested in any platform specific languages.
You represent a small group of people and that is my point. While Robert
tries to please everyone, everyone ends up suffering. Like I have stated
over and over again, the easiest way to solve this is to allow 3rd party
flavors of EU. The only reason why Robert does not allow this is because
he feels another person/company might end up surpassing him.
> You suggest that the Windows 32 API will remain in use 7 years from now, but
> fail to explain why the majority of developers would still wish to use an old
> technology when they could use .NET or WinFX and gain much greater
> productivity
> in almost every aspect of Windows software development. I am fairly certain
> it's Microsoft's plan to phase out the aging Win32 API with the new WinFX
> infrastructure
> by the end of this decade.
Vincent you and I look at things differently. Yes .NET is widely used, but
how many major software products do you know of that use .NET? When was the
last time you bought a major software product that uses .NET? That is what
you have to look at when trying to determine where technology is going.
Windows Vista will still support Win32 API, and because of that you are still
looking at least another 7 years, because that is about how long most
Windows OSes remain significant. With all the advances in computers, there
are still some DOS programs in use, even you admitted you still code for DOS.
> Needless to say, I believe any initiative at this point to hamper Euphoria
> support
> across other platforms could have lethal consequences with an already
> struggling
> language!
I know you are a supporter of EU and to a certain degree so am I, but do you
really think EU will be anything more than a struggling language? Do you
really think the reason why EU is struggling is because it needs to be faster
or support more features? A few years ago before Robert released the source
code to EU, I emailed him and told him releasing the source code will not
increase the amount of users, and I was right. Robert looks at EU as just a
language, but to someone else it is a product, and products have to be
promoted and marketed, and that takes money and effort. Look at the IPOD, it
is the dominate portable MP3 player but the IPOD is a limited feature
gimmick. I could name a dozen MP3 players that are better than the IPOD,
but yet the IPOD remains the top selling MP3 player. Why? Because Apple
has hyped, promoted, and poured millions into brainwashing consumers into
thinking the IPOD is the best thing since sliced bread. What EU needs now
is to be promoted. Robert can forget about attracting users of other
languages, what he needs to concentrate on is people who want to learn how
to code and do not have a lot of money. I am 100% sure if a new coder spent
a few hours using a commercially packaged EU, that coder would be hooked for
life.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
18. Re: More projects?
don cole wrote:
>
> I don't know if it would be called a wrapper or if it could be done.
>
> But I would like to see a program that converts win32lib programs to
> wxEuphoria.
>
It could maybe be done. I can say from first hand experience that it's not
too difficult (though it is time consuming) to convert a program from Win32Lib
to wxEuphoria. I deliberately designed wxEuphoria to use similar paradigms,
and most Win32Lib calls have a wxEuphoria equivalent.
Matt Lewis
19. Re: More projects?
--0-317164529-1135788300=:68045
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<snip>
Look at the IPOD, it is the dominate portable MP3 player but the IPOD is a
limited feature gimmick. I could name a dozen MP3 players that are better than
the IPOD, but yet the IPOD remains the top selling MP3 player. Why? Because
Apple has hyped, promoted, and poured millions into brainwashing consumers into
thinking the IPOD is the best thing since sliced bread. </snip>
Chris, the iPod is a triumph of industrial design, that is why it sells well.
Visually and ergonomically it has a wonderful uncluttered aesthetic, it feels
good in your hand and it's a joy to use. Consumers are human too and they
recognise and respond to quality without brainwashing. Sales of other MP3
players pale by comparison because for all their features and gimmicks, they
don't capture the heart and the imagination the way the iPod does. Using an iPod
is like writing with a nice pen. The Creative MP3 players by contrast, look and
feel like cheap, disposable ballpoints (and remain largely on store shelves as a
result). Good marketing helps of course but no brainwashing is required when a
product taps into that genuine quality to which all human beings respond.
There's no big mystery to the iPod's success. People really like it.
Disclaimer: I don't work with or for Apple in any way or even own any Apple
stock - I am the proud owner of an iPod however 
Gordon
20. Re: More projects?
- Posted by D. Newhall <derek_newhall at yahoo.com>
Dec 28, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 29, 2005
C Bouzy wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> The Win32API will still be in use 7 years from now, it is not going
> anywhere. Personally I do not see any major advantages of supporting
> other OSes, especially when they only represent 5-7% of ALL computers
> in the world. This means if there were only 1000 computer users in the
> world, approximately 50 would have one of the OSes you mentioned. And
> out of that 50, how many would be using EU?. So Robert is putting in all
> his time and effort to support other platforms for a handful of users.
> I remember when everyone said Linux would replace Windows, 7 years later
> and Windows is still the dominate OS. Linux is open source and even the
> commercial versions are dramatically cheaper than Windows, and Linux
> still does not have half of the marketshare.
Cross-platform support is necessary for Euphoria and Rob should work towards
supporting more platforms. As Vincent has said if we were to just have the
Windows version there wouldn't be any incentive to use Euphoria over, say,
VB.NET. I see no indication that Euphoria would magically get a bigger user-base
if the product was Windows-only and given extensive support for that platofrm
only. I use Euphoria at my work and I have used every version of Euphoria and am
eternally grateful that I can move my code between most of the platforms we use
in the lab. I've used Euphoria in DOS to analyze data on one of our instruments,
I've written install scripts for cross-platform software that needs to be
deployed on Linux and Windows using Euphoria, and I've written server scripts for
our FreeBSD server. However, my ability to use Euphoria is threatened because the
platforms many people are moving to at my job (OpenBSD, Zeta, and Mac OS X) are
not supported by Euphoria.
The language Ruby (www.ruby-lang.org) came out after Euphoria did and has gained
a significant market share. Why? The creator "Matz" has repeatedly said in
interviews it was due to the langauge being open-source and people porting it to
other platforms. Now before you say "Euphoria is open-source", yes, that is true,
but that doesn't help us that need Euphoria on an unsupported platform and wish
to port it. To get Euphoria on a Mac I need to pay $80 to get the source code and
port it. I don't have the time and money to do that, that's what RDS's job is.
Some of the most popular programming languages right now all started on *nix.
PHP, Python, Perl, TCL, C, Ruby, etc. were all *nix-only languages to begin with
and all of them are open-source for portability. Even some that aren't
open-source but portable are popular as well, such as Java. Portability is the
key to language survivability in this day and age.
The Euphoria Standard Library project :
http://esl.sourceforge.net/
The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list :
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion
21. Re: More projects?
On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:36:48 -0800, Jeremy Peterson
<guest at RapidEuphoria.com> wrote:
>Are there any more libraries that anyone needs?
I'd often wondered about video in Eu, and today I stumbled over this:
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/download-sources.html
That should keep you going for a while 
)
Regards,
Pete
