1. Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Hi All,
Has anyone had any success in adapting EU to the pocket PC. Or should I
just look for another language?
If the later any suggestions for a simple language I could use?
Thanks
Tony
2. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
I tried using Pelles C to compile it to Pocket PC. It would compile everything
with some warnings, but when linking I'd get a ton of errors.
Just thought you'd like to know.
Later
Jeremy Peterson
3. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
The main languages for programming WinCE are C and C++.
I can't think of any more offhand.
Later
4. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
I found another - PPL - but it was more complicated than Euphoria by far!
Alex
5. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
PPL is like python, but it is not that hard to use.
Later
jeremy
6. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Dec 13, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 14, 2005
Jeremy Peterson wrote:
>
> I tried using Pelles C to compile it to Pocket PC. It would compile
> everything
> with some warnings, but when linking I'd get a ton of errors.
> Just thought you'd like to know.
>
I'm not suprized.
Some Pocket PC's dont have the x86 architecture. The C back-end contains some
traces of x86 assembly code, so that immediately presents a problem when porting
to different architectures. It can be done, but the ASM would have to be
completely re-coded. You would have to build a custom MAKE file also, since the
source only comes with ones for Watcom, Borland, LCC, and GCC compilers on DOS,
Windows, Linux, and FreeBSD.
Perhaps instead you could add thread-safety and sport a 64 bit editon of the
Euphoria interpreter? For that, I'd vote handsomely in Micro-Economy money!
I would do it myself, since I have the C source, but I don't know enough about C
programming. Euphoria and it's standard library might become thread safe many
years in the future, but to be honest, I really dont want to wait that long; I
want to have it soon. Pleeeeeaaaasee!?!?! LOL. 
Regards,
Vincent
7. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Dec 13, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 14, 2005
I wrote:
>
> Perhaps instead you could add thread-safety and sport a 64 bit editon of the
> Euphoria interpreter? For that, I'd vote handsomely in Micro-Economy money!
>
> I would do it myself, since I have the C source, but I don't know enough about
> C programming. Euphoria and it's standard library might become thread safe
> many
> years in the future, but to be honest, I really dont want to wait that long;
> I want to have it soon. Pleeeeeaaaasee!?!?! LOL.
>
In fact, in addition to voting, I may even buy someone the source or maybe trade
in my copy of the Euphoria 2.5 and 3.0 source ($79 value) to anyone willing to
just add thread-safety to it! Perhaps then Robert could add it to the official
language and tools?
Of course RDS would have to grant me the privilage to do something like that.
Regards,
Vincent
8. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
- Posted by Jeremy Peterson <ptl99 at hotmail.com>
Dec 13, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 14, 2005
OK Vincent, send me your copy of the source and I'll do it. 
Later,
Jeremy
9. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
- Posted by Vincent <darkvincentdude at yahoo.com>
Dec 13, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 14, 2005
Jeremy Peterson wrote:
> OK Vincent, send me your copy of the source and I'll do it.
Sweet!! Really? You a decent C programmer? :D
LOL... I'm being serious though. If your willing to add it, then there are a
couple things that need to happen first:
1) Euphoria v3.0 Final needs to be released (2nd or 3rd quarter 2006?).
I would like for it to be implemented on top of the final release of 3.0, which
has bug fixes, cooperative tasking, and other new features. This would also make
it easier for Rob to decide whether or not to implement it in Euphoria v3.1 or
v3.2; if it's built on v2.5, it's quite unlikely. The "alpha" may be released in
Spring of 2006, but the "final" is probably many months after that. So basically
there is a bit of a waiting period.
2) I need to work this all out with RDS.
Since the C source code has a strict license, Robert and I would need to do some
collaboration. He may request that I purchase a copy of the source for $79 rather
than exchange mine. Although I'm quite trustworthy, he still has little guarantee
that I've completely removed the source from my system and deleted the e-mails
with the download links. If I'm to purchase the v3.0 source code for you, I'd
need some assurance on your commitment and ability to implement it, and not just
take it and scram. Either way, Robert would likely be the one administering the
source code to you via e-mail.
If your serious, I hope these small things don't discourage you. It is quite
necessary that it be done this way to prevent legal issues and a wasted
investment on my part. I think this could be finalized during the duration
between now and the final release of Euphoria v3.0.
Thanks,
Vincent
10. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
- Posted by cklester <cklester at yahoo.com>
Dec 13, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 14, 2005
Vincent wrote:
> 1) Euphoria v3.0 Final needs to be released (2nd or 3rd quarter 2006?).
Uh, I was told January 2006.
Oops! That's for the secret Euphoria society members only. Nevermind.
-=ck
"Programming in a state of Euphoria."
http://www.cklester.com/euphoria/
11. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
- Posted by Jeremy Peterson <ptl99 at hotmail.com>
Dec 13, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 14, 2005
Well I don't like to brag but...
I'm a fairly good C programmer but there are a lot of Elite C programmers out in
the open source world. Why don't you go to one of those Gnu forums and put the
word out that you're looking for someone for this job.
Actually, I was thinking of re-implementing Eu completely in D. It is as fast
as C, much easier to program in, and would be easier to use to implement stuff
like OOP, threads, and wrapping dlls. The downside of this is that I'd have to
start from scratch, but it would solve any licensing problems with Rob's source
code. On the other hand, looking at the OpenEu, Peu, Bach, Posetf projects, I
get the feeling that not many people would use this if implemented. It would be
slower with added features, and some people think this is a serious problem,
though with today's computers it is less so.
Too, I wouldn't want to take away Rob's bread and butter. I'm rather confused
by him. He seems to want Eu to remain simple, like a beginner's language or
something. Why doesn't he implement an Expert version of Eu with these
features??? RDS is a very confusing company.
You could always hire RDS to do this, they have that page on the web site that
says they will take programming jobs at cheap rates. No... I don't think Rob
would go for that.
Later,
Jeremy Peterson
12. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Jeremy Peterson wrote:
> Well I don't like to brag but...
> I'm a fairly good C programmer but there are a lot of Elite C programmers out
> in the open source world. Why don't you go to one of those Gnu forums and put
> the word out that you're looking for someone for this job.
Heh, I doubt anyone other than a Euphorian would be interested in the C source
code offer. I really dont want to make a big deal out of this if nobody is
interested. I'm not at a total loss though, since I'm learning ISE Eiffel, which
has so much that I'm not going to mention here.
> Actually, I was thinking of re-implementing Eu completely in D. It is as fast
> as C, much easier to program in, and would be easier to use to implement stuff
> like OOP, threads, and wrapping dlls. The downside of this is that I'd have
> to start from scratch, but it would solve any licensing problems with Rob's
> source code. On the other hand, looking at the OpenEu, Peu, Bach, Posetf
> projects,
> I get the feeling that not many people would use this if implemented. It
> would
> be slower with added features, and some people think this is a serious
> problem,
> though with today's computers it is less so.
> Too, I wouldn't want to take away Rob's bread and butter. I'm rather confused
> by him. He seems to want Eu to remain simple, like a beginner's language or
> something. Why doesn't he implement an Expert version of Eu with these
> features???
> RDS is a very confusing company.
Derek Parnell is making an Euphoria clone in D, he plans on using it for his
personal needs, but if he releases it to the general public, it will likely fail
just like all the other imitations. He and Georg Wrede hang around in the Digital
Mars D programming forum.
There is no way D could be as fast as highly optimized C. D is loaded with
features, including garbage collection (which slows things down a little).
I suppose D looks superior to C and C++, but looks more like feces against
Euphoria in most cases.
> You could always hire RDS to do this, they have that page on the web site that
> says they will take programming jobs at cheap rates. No... I don't think
> Rob would go for that.
I couldn't afford to hire RDS. For example, they wanted $300 USD to add INSERT
functionality into my specific copy of the Public Domain source code! Judging by
what Rob said about the price of adding a "goto" label construct to the language,
I'm guessing it could cost me upwards of a million dollars for what I want. LOL
:P
> Later,
> Jeremy Peterson
Cheers,
Vincent
13. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Vincent wrote:
>
> I'm not at a total loss though, since I'm learning ISE Eiffel, which has so
> much that I'm not going to mention here.
And it costs so much that I just threw up a little in my mouth.
-=ck
"Programming in a state of Euphoria."
http://www.cklester.com/euphoria/
14. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Hi there,
Are you guys saying there's no way to run Euphoria on a pocket pc
yet?
Take care,
Al
And, good luck with your Euphoria programming!
My bumper sticker: "I brake for LED's"
15. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Al Getz wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> Are you guys saying there's no way to run Euphoria on a pocket pc
> yet?
>
>
> Take care,
> Al
>
> And, good luck with your Euphoria programming!
>
> My bumper sticker: "I brake for LED's"
Hi
Pelles C does work with pocket pc, and its based on lcc - I did broach
this subject before, and look into it in some detail, its just tha' me
brine star'ed to smowke loyke inni' - so I gave up - I'm sure its possible,
to write an eu to pelles C translator, just not easy for someone like me.
Chris
16. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Vincent wrote:
>
> Jeremy Peterson wrote:
>
> > Well I don't like to brag but...
> > I'm a fairly good C programmer but there are a lot of Elite C programmers
> > out
> > in the open source world. Why don't you go to one of those Gnu forums and
> > put
> > the word out that you're looking for someone for this job.
>
> Heh, I doubt anyone other than a Euphorian would be interested in the C source
> code offer. I really dont want to make a big deal out of this if nobody is
> interested.
> I'm not at a total loss though, since I'm learning ISE Eiffel, which has so
> much that I'm not going to mention here.
Eiffel? I looked at it, but the syntax is like Lisp to me.
> > Actually, I was thinking of re-implementing Eu completely in D. It is as
> > fast
> > as C, much easier to program in, and would be easier to use to implement
> > stuff
> > like OOP, threads, and wrapping dlls. The downside of this is that I'd have
> > to start from scratch, but it would solve any licensing problems with Rob's
> > source code. On the other hand, looking at the OpenEu, Peu, Bach, Posetf
> > projects,
> > I get the feeling that not many people would use this if implemented. It
> > would
> > be slower with added features, and some people think this is a serious
> > problem,
> > though with today's computers it is less so.
> > Too, I wouldn't want to take away Rob's bread and butter. I'm rather
> > confused
> > by him. He seems to want Eu to remain simple, like a beginner's language or
> > something. Why doesn't he implement an Expert version of Eu with these
> > features???
> > RDS is a very confusing company.
>
> Derek Parnell is making an Euphoria clone in D, he plans on using it for his
> personal needs, but if he releases it to the general public, it will likely
> fail just like all the other imitations. He and Georg Wrede hang around in the
> Digital Mars D programming forum.
He is??? How come I haven't heard anything about this before?
> There is no way D could be as fast as highly optimized C. D is loaded with
> features,
> including garbage collection (which slows things down a little).
> I suppose D looks superior to C and C++, but looks more like feces against
> Euphoria
> in most cases.
There is too a way. D can use inline asm just like C, and the other features
let you program better so your program runs faster.
> > You could always hire RDS to do this, they have that page on the web site
> > that
> > says they will take programming jobs at cheap rates. No... I don't
> > think
> > Rob would go for that.
>
> I couldn't afford to hire RDS. For example, they wanted $300 USD to add INSERT
> functionality into my specific copy of the Public Domain source code! Judging
> by what Rob said about the price of adding a "goto" label construct to the
> language,
> I'm guessing it could cost me upwards of a million dollars for what I want.
> LOL :P
>
> > Later,
> > Jeremy Peterson
>
> Cheers,
> Vincent
Why don't you pay Derek to put this stuff in for you? I doubt he'd charge as
much as RDS.
Later,
Jeremy Peterson
17. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Jeremy Peterson wrote:
<SNIP>
> Why don't you pay Derek to put this stuff in for you? I doubt he'd charge as
> much as RDS.
>
> Later,
> Jeremy Peterson
>
>
Derek probably doesn't want to look at the existing source code if he is
implementing his own version of Euphoria.
--
"Actually, I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."
- Tom Tomorrow
j.
18. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
I meant using whatever code Derek has, not using RDS's source code.
Later,
Jeremy
19. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Following this thread, I was wondering whether there was a DOS emulator
available for PocketPC that could run the DOS version of Euphoria.
--
"Actually, I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."
- Tom Tomorrow
j.
20. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Jason Gade wrote:
>
> Following this thread, I was wondering whether there was a DOS emulator
> available
> for PocketPC that could run the DOS version of Euphoria.
I'm afraid not.
Jeremy Peterson
21. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Vincent wrote:
> Derek Parnell is making an Euphoria clone in D, he plans on using it for his
> personal needs, but if he releases it to the general public, it will likely
> fail just like all the other imitations. He and Georg Wrede hang around in the
> Digital Mars D programming forum.
>
Vincent,
How long have you been using EU? In that statement you are implying that EU
is successful and unfortunately it is not. Not only has the "immitations"
failed, but the "original" language has failed on so many levels.
If anyone was to create a clone of EU and attracted more than 5000 users,
it would be considered more successful than the current EU. Someone could
literally take EU as is and rename it, and if they knew what they were doing,
that “clone” could be more successful than the current version of EU.
I can name dozens of software products that were EXACT clones/re-branded
versions of another product, and one product did significantly better than
the other. Robert puts very little effort into attracting new users.
Most of the people who find out about EU stumble across it while looking
for other programming languages, or by word of mouth. Regrettably Robert
has the “If you build it they will come” syndrome.
EU is currently open source and the amount of users still have not increased
significantly, that alone should tell you that there needs to be changes.
Appearance is EVERYTHING, and when someone stumbles across EU for the first
time, the first thing that comes to mind is outdated. Over the years I have
seen numerous talented programmers leave because of Robert’s inability
and/or unwillingness to listen to the very people who are using the language.
I have been around here long enough to know if EU will ever get out of the
Stone Age it will have to be done outside of RDS. As long as the “protected”
source is not used, it can be done legally with no recourse from RDS.
----If you continue to do what you have always done,
you will get what you have always gotten.----
22. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Jeremy Peterson wrote:
>
> Jason Gade wrote:
> >
> > Following this thread, I was wondering whether there was a DOS emulator
> > available
> > for PocketPC that could run the DOS version of Euphoria.
>
> I'm afraid not.
>
> Jeremy Peterson
Doing some very shallow research on Google, I found this:
http://www.pocketwall.com/pDOSBox/
--
"Actually, I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."
- Tom Tomorrow
j.
23. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Jason Gade wrote:
>
> Jeremy Peterson wrote:
> >
> > Jason Gade wrote:
> > >
> > > Following this thread, I was wondering whether there was a DOS emulator
> > > available
> > > for PocketPC that could run the DOS version of Euphoria.
> >
> > I'm afraid not.
> >
> > Jeremy Peterson
>
> Doing some very shallow research on Google, I found this:
> <a
> href="http://www.pocketwall.com/pDOSBox/">http://www.pocketwall.com/pDOSBox/</a>
>
> --
> "Actually, I'm sitting on my butt staring at a computer screen."
> - Tom Tomorrow
>
> j.
Yes, but I've never been able to get eu to work under DosBox because of the
Dos extender
Chris
24. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
I don't know if I want to say too much here because I might get put on Rob's hit
list :D, but I think Chris is right. RDS's marketing strategy has been
nonexistant. The language has the right syntax, but is crippled by the lack of
advanced features. There are basic clones that can do much more. Also, Rob
seems to emphasize speed over useability, though with the faster computers we
have nowadays, speed is not much of a concern. The problem with Euphoria is that
once you use it, you get addicted to some parts of it and it's hard to leave it.
The Euphoria name seems very appropriate :D .
Later,
Jeremy Peterson
25. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Ooops! I guess I was wrong. Sorry about that... heh heh.
Have you tried using Eu on it?
Later,
Jeremy Peterson
26. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Rob should release a dos version without an extender. Maybe then it would work.
Later,
Jeremy
27. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
Jeremy Peterson wrote:
> Eiffel? I looked at it, but the syntax is like Lisp to me.
Eiffel's syntax is more like Delphi or Pascal, but still radically different.
Eiffel doesn't share Lisp's parentheses craziness. I think eventually I'll
consider Eiffel to have an elegence, simplicity, and performance theology that
corresponds to that of Euphoria, but with a object oriented paradigm instead.
> He is??? How come I haven't heard anything about this before?
You weren't paying attention? 
> There is too a way. D can use inline asm just like C, and the other features
> let you program better so your program runs faster.
If you were using inline ASM all the time, how would you benefit much from the
features? More features bog down a language, it may help you build a better
program faster, but it usually doesn't improve execution speed. The reason D does
so well in the shootout benchmarks (overall) is because all the benchmark testing
applications are available and run, where as some languages have 10 or 20+
missing and/or broken programs, thus recieving a poorer overall score.
> Why don't you pay Derek to put this stuff in for you? I doubt he'd charge as
> much as RDS.
Derek wants nothing to do with RDS and he has demonstrated that openly.
> Later,
> Jeremy Peterson
Regards,
Vincent
28. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
cklester wrote:
> And it costs so much that I just threw up a little in my mouth.
Yes it does!!! But for non commercial purposes, the enterprise edition edition
is free to download and use unlimited. You just get an annoying splash screen
with your programs and of course the non commercial license.
The free, open-source Eiffel compilers, like SmallEiffel and SmartEiffel are
probably worth looking at too. But the proprietary system from ISE comes with a
complete IDE, standard libraries, .NET compliance, 64 bit support support for
platforms, contracts, and so much more. It does not have game and audio
libraries, but with it's extensive C, C++, and Java interfacing mechanisms and
full .NET support (can compile Eiffel code to MSIL), it could be rather easy to
wrap these from several different languages.
What else is interesting is ISE Eiffel has recently been approved a standard by
ECMA; Standard ECMA-367.
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-367.pdf
Regards,
Vincent
29. Re: Pocket PC, Sucess anyone?
- Posted by D. Newhall <derek_newhall at yahoo.com>
Dec 14, 2005
-
Last edited Dec 15, 2005
Vincent wrote:
>
> cklester wrote:
>
> > And it costs so much that I just threw up a little in my mouth.
>
> Yes it does!!! But for non commercial purposes, the enterprise edition edition
> is free to download and use unlimited. You just get an annoying splash screen
> with your programs and of course the non commercial license.
>
> The free, open-source Eiffel compilers, like SmallEiffel and SmartEiffel are
> probably worth looking at too. But the proprietary system from ISE comes with
> a complete IDE, standard libraries, .NET compliance, 64 bit support support
> for platforms, contracts, and so much more. It does not have game and audio
> libraries, but with it's extensive C, C++, and Java interfacing mechanisms and
> full .NET support (can compile Eiffel code to MSIL), it could be rather easy
> to wrap these from several different languages.
>
> What else is interesting is ISE Eiffel has recently been approved a standard
> by ECMA; Standard ECMA-367.
>
> <a
> href="http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-367.pdf">http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-367.pdf</a>
>
There's also Visual Eiffel (http://www.visual-eiffel.com) which is free for GPL
programs only (and therefore more crippled than the ISE version) but the
commercial version is cheaper (700euro).
SmartEiffel (http://smarteiffel.loria.fr/) (SmallEiffel is SmartEiffel now) is
alright except it's not standard. The libraries are different and more
importantly SmartEiffel is case-sensitive which can cause code to stop working.
Interesting fact on the *nix front is that GNOME's been considering using Eiffel
as it's main language for development.
The Euphoria Standard Library project :
http://esl.sourceforge.net/
The Euphoria Standard Library mailing list :
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/esl-discussion
