1. Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by GreenEuphorian Jun 29, 2015
- 3815 views
So, this topic has been raised many times before, but I could never figure out what the answer to this question was. I will give it one last shot, because I am getting a bit frustrated.
On the face of it, Euphoria looks very user friendly, especially thanks to its easy and readable syntax. But then, when a user wants to go beyond the basics, things are not so easy anymore. For one, there is a huge lack of learning materials.
Most of the Euphoria users are old-timers and, let's face it, there are almost no newbies around. My guess is that the actual adoption rate is very low. I must admit I don't have any statistics, and all I go by are the forum posts: apart from the occasional newcomer, the posts are mostly by old timers, discussing some highly advanced aspect of the language.
Now, what I was hoping to achieve from this thread is some better understanding, a clarification regarding the language developement policy of Euphoria (if there is one). The question is: are newbies ever going to be the target audience of the language developement efforts (or at least of some significant part of it)?
The distinct impression that I got from reading this forum for several years is that most of the developing efforts (which include documentation, learning materials, not only language development alone) do not seem to care much for newbies. To me, it seems that the developement only goes on for the sake of the small community of the developers, who are expert programmers; if this is really the policy, newbies are bound to be left out, because they are unable to find the stepping stones that would allow them to progress. Of course Euphoria is there for anyone, in theory, but in practice not everyone can benefit from it. As pointed out in other posts, the manual is too technical, too terse. There are no up-to-date tutorials for the recent version of Euphoria. There are no schools or colleges teaching Euphoria, anywhere in the world, so all what a Euphoria learner can possibly hope for, in terms of tutorials and teaching resources, has to come from this website. Other resources for newbies such as the Rosetta Code website and the usingeuphoria.com website are not enough.
I would appreciate some comments from the developers and from the user community on this topic.
All the best,
2. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by euphoric (admin) Jun 30, 2015
- 3753 views
I would appreciate some comments from the developers and from the user community on this topic.
I don't think the problem is a lack of desire, but one of resources. We would all love to see an easy path for new Euphoria programmers, but who has the time? We need to host a Summer of Code event and get a ton of college students to help us out, gratis. heheh
3. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by BRyan Jun 30, 2015
- 3769 views
If you download my w32Engine from here:
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/cgi-bin/asearch.exu?win=on&keywords=+Win32+Engine
It will explain how to use Euphoria to do windows programming.
Read all the Document text files and all the comments in the demos.
This should help you start to understand windows programming.
Bernie
4. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) Jun 30, 2015
- 3774 views
are newbies ever going to be the target audience of the language developement efforts (or at least of some significant part of it)?
Without some significant work, probably not. It takes quite a bit of effort for a new programmer to learn a language, and why would a programmer experienced in another language want to change.
The 'newbie experience' will be based on a direct comparison with other languages - ie how much effort does it take to get a 'hello world' with w32engine / eugtk etc, versus a language with everything installed, and (I realise how hated this term is amongst the more experienced programmers here) plonkability.
While the language itself may be elegant, if you want to attract newbies, you have to grab a potential new audience with the attention span of half an iTunes song (I generalise), and make them go "ooooh"
Next is the effort required by the community to get to that stage. We all have lives, we are a small community with a finite / limited amount of time to do this, with a splintering of gui toolkits that, while each kit in itself is an impressive piece of work, does nothing (in my opinion) to help focus a newbie on what matters to them - creating an app. And this is a chicken and egg situation, until there are more people with more time, their will be fewer newbies attracted, to create more people with more time.
So what to do? The community has to get together, to focus on the 'newbie ooh factor', and put aside the more advanced toolkits until the newbie wants to advance. Almost a Euphoria simple, and an Eu++ (I hate those too by the way).
Now, I don't have the time right now to do this, but perhaps a community project with a defined set of goals, aims and methods to get there could be achieved. Step one on this road would be to start a forum with folders - this looks more familiar to most newbies, rather than this list format (I don't dislike it, it's just not as familiar as a forum). Eu can do it - show the code! We could then create a folder for Eu simple, and within that create a Euphoria with the oooh factor (that's oooh, not OO by the way).
Anyway, babbling done.
Cheers
Chris
5. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by SDPringle Jun 30, 2015
- 3708 views
I wrote about five paragraphs about this and then realized that perhaps someone who has had access to programming language for over thirty years might have a hard time noticing when something might not be newbie friendly. It might be easier for someone who just started with programming languages two years ago and is now looking at Euphoria.
I got involved because I was a bit of a fan of Euphoria. I don't get any compensation for Euphoria's development. Nothing from the PayPal button goes to me. I must spend my time finding work and that is time consuming yet it pays more than Euphoria.
I agree with everything said here in this thread so far. In general a computing language takes great advantage of and is a victim of network effects. Popular languages get more APIs. Developers need APIs for the language they use to write software. If there are not sufficient APIs to fulfill the need, the language doesn't get used. It doesn't get popular.
S. D. Pringle
6. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by ryanj Jun 30, 2015
- 3695 views
I agree with everything said here in this thread so far. In general a computing language takes great advantage of and is a victim of network effects. Popular languages get more APIs. Developers need APIs for the language they use to write software. If there are not sufficient APIs to fulfill the need, the language doesn't get used. It doesn't get popular.
I agree. The way i see Euphoria is: it has a very good syntax but very poor interfacing to real-world situations. The syntax itself is the main reason why i put up with all the shortcomings of the Euphoria "environment". I have always believed in the simple and elegant design of the language itself, but have always been disappointed with the lack of APIs, difficulty of building and deploying applications, and inability to keep up with modern features.
I would argue that the issues that make Euphoria difficult for beginners also make it difficult for experienced programmers, we just know more about how to work around these issues. I think a really good IDE with context-sensitive help and really solid libraries and tools would make Euphoria much easier for beginners and everyone else.
7. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by SDPringle Jul 04, 2015
- 3604 views
I have learned many things working on this project but a key thing is that Euphoria's core language encapsulates memory management, adding things in the C back end breaks that encapsulation and increases the probability of more nasty machine exception style bugs to occur.
Compiling time type checking is something I attempted with the alternative literals branch but it is really a limited idea. For example, the Interpreter ought to have a mechanism to know that a regex flags can be combined with bitwise operations and only such values should be allowed on the fourth argument to regex:find but such values should not be allowed in the thrid argument (which is for the offset). There is no way to do this in Euphoria. You can communicate this to a C + + compiler, to Java, and a like.
At the machine level, and at the Euphoria level regex flags and offsets are the same kind of thing but conceptually these have different purposes and you can wrap them into C+ + classes and use Operator Overloading and all of these kinds of bugs give you an error when compiling.
If we could take the structure idea from C: (except use Euphoria objects as members not C types), Some/Any/None from Rust, and strict types with OO of C+ +, then we would have the best of all worlds.
I am currently looking into Rust. It's offers even more kinds of compiling checking than C+ +.
Shawn
8. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by irv Jul 04, 2015
- 3572 views
Obviously there must be some other programming language that meets all these requirements. Easy to install, easy to learn, and can make complex programs with just a plonk or two.
Please name one.
9. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by fizzpopsoft Jul 04, 2015
- 3554 views
Hi Irv,
don't hold your breath, especially for a qualified answer ;)
I don't see any way (for example) to have the the power and flexibility of pointers
without also the responsibility, compexity and dangers too.
Euphoria suits me just fine - I have never had a PC lockup caused by Euphoria and I have been using it since 1995.
10. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by _tom (admin) Jul 06, 2015
- 3559 views
...are newbies ever going to be the target audience...
I agree that making Euphoria conspicuously newbie friendly should be our goal. I'm thinking about the "newbie" part which also means I am not thinking about the more advanced level that you are on.
As pointed out in other posts, the manual is too technical, too terse.
The manual is a monster to re-write but I am working on it. Ultimately a manual has to be "technical" and "terse"; you have to describe everything in a compact form. Learning to program from a manual is like learning a new human language by reading a dictionary.
Why not work with me to make a better manual? You could be the official editor|agitator.
There are no schools or colleges teaching Euphoria, anywhere in the world,...
THEY have decided. Download Python in Education http://www.oreilly.com/programming/free/python-in-education.csp . Python was designed to make it easier for teachers to teach programming--instant sell to educational administrators. Python was adopted by Google which made it "official"--people use what they are told is trendy. The result was an avalanche--there is money in Python.
...so all what a Euphoria learner can possibly hope for, in terms of tutorials and teaching resources,...
Slow by slow, I am working on an intro to Euphoria.
...Most of the Euphoria users are old-timers...
Maybe you have to be an old-timer to finally learn that Euphoria is easier to program.
...when a user wants to go beyond the basics, things are not so easy anymore...
An easy to learn language does not mean programming, itself, suddenly becomes easy.
As a reality check try to learn Python. Examine Python examples and algorithms and convert them to Euphoria--you should see that Euphoria has the advantage.
The answer you don't want to hear: (A raccoon has figured out how to take my humming bird feeder apart.)(They ran out of worms; I didn't go fishing.) We are small. We are busy. We are doing the best we can with limited resources.
The important thing is not to get frustrated. You will likely end up as a Euphoria developer.
_tom
11. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by andi49 Jul 06, 2015
- 3524 views
So, this topic has been raised many times before, but I could never figure out what the answer to this question was. I will give it one last shot, because I am getting a bit frustrated.
On the face of it, Euphoria looks very user friendly, especially thanks to its easy and readable syntax. But then, when a user wants to go beyond the basics, things are not so easy anymore. For one, there is a huge lack of learning materials.
Most of the Euphoria users are old-timers and, let's face it, there are almost no newbies around. My guess is that the actual adoption rate is very low. I must admit I don't have any statistics, and all I go by are the forum posts: apart from the occasional newcomer, the posts are mostly by old timers, discussing some highly advanced aspect of the language.
Now, what I was hoping to achieve from this thread is some better understanding, a clarification regarding the language developement policy of Euphoria (if there is one). The question is: are newbies ever going to be the target audience of the language developement efforts (or at least of some significant part of it)?
The distinct impression that I got from reading this forum for several years is that most of the developing efforts (which include documentation, learning materials, not only language development alone) do not seem to care much for newbies. To me, it seems that the developement only goes on for the sake of the small community of the developers, who are expert programmers; if this is really the policy, newbies are bound to be left out, because they are unable to find the stepping stones that would allow them to progress. Of course Euphoria is there for anyone, in theory, but in practice not everyone can benefit from it. As pointed out in other posts, the manual is too technical, too terse. There are no up-to-date tutorials for the recent version of Euphoria. There are no schools or colleges teaching Euphoria, anywhere in the world, so all what a Euphoria learner can possibly hope for, in terms of tutorials and teaching resources, has to come from this website. Other resources for newbies such as the Rosetta Code website and the usingeuphoria.com website are not enough.
I would appreciate some comments from the developers and from the user community on this topic.
All the best,
http://zedshaw.com/2015/06/16/early-vs-beginning-coders/
Andreas
12. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by GreenEuphorian Jul 06, 2015
- 3436 views
Thanks all for answering my plea in this thread. The gist of your replies, for what I could understand, is that there is still hope that things will improve :)
The manual is a monster to re-write but I am working on it.
This is very encouraging. A heartfelt thanks, tom.
Ultimately a manual has to be "technical" and "terse"; you have to describe everything in a compact form.
What I am missing most in the manual is not that silly chatty style used in some manuals (which is totally out of place in tecnical writings), but some more examples. Examples and snippets of code are direly lacking.
Once again, thanks all for the reassurances.
13. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by Spock Jul 06, 2015
- 3530 views
Obviously there must be some other programming language that meets all these requirements. Easy to install, easy to learn, and can make complex programs with just a plonk or two.
Please name one.
Spock
14. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by fizzpopsoft Jul 07, 2015
- 3427 views
There is a programming beginner language called scratch 2 , created by MIT.
Seems to be good for learning programming concepts, but has limited real-world application as there does not seem to be any file capabilities.
IMHO anyone who can understand scratch and then sequences in Euphoria, would be good to go with Euphoria.
Excluding the GUI issues of course ;)
15. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by fizzpopsoft Jul 07, 2015
- 3449 views
Perhaps the Euphoria approach to newbies should differentiate between programmer newbies and Euphoria newbies. After all, teaching programming concepts is covered by other efforts, why re-invent the wheel here?
Perhaps direct complete newcomers to programming at efforts like scratch 2 to understand the concepts first - can be just a link up front on the Euphoria page.
16. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by euphoric (admin) Jul 07, 2015
- 3420 views
Obviously there must be some other programming language that meets all these requirements. Easy to install, easy to learn, and can make complex programs with just a plonk or two.
Please name one.
Spock
Rebol looks amazing. What's the downside?
17. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by kinzz Jul 07, 2015
- 3428 views
Rebol looks amazing. What's the downside?
Regards
kinz
18. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by jaygade Jul 07, 2015
- 3401 views
Yeah, I remember when Rebol came out and it was a commercial product. Now it's Apache-licensed open-source however. I didn't know that until I started looking at the site again after this thread. It went open source in 2012.
19. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by euphoric (admin) Jul 07, 2015
- 3412 views
So it costs money to create executable files. It is reasonably priced for what it provides, it seems.
20. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by Spock Jul 07, 2015
- 3509 views
That just refers to a particular product sold by the developer for advanced users "who want more control over the operation and configuration of their REBOL programs".
REBOL/View is completely free (and programs run on many platforms without modification).
Spock
21. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by fizzpopsoft Jul 08, 2015
- 3358 views
The Rebol inventors wiki has only one post so far this year? ....
There was a post from a former Euphorian deploring the Rebol forum manners, said Euphoria was better.
Its a struggle to get free downloadable manuals, I prefer those to web links.
But on the surface, Rebol does seem good, I have downloaded it and will play.
$249 is rather more than what Rob was charging before Eu went open source ;)
22. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by DerekParnell (admin) Jul 25, 2015
- 3266 views
So, this topic has been raised many times before, but I could never figure out what the answer to this question was. I will give it one last shot, because I am getting a bit frustrated.
I'm sorry that you're getting frustrated. All I can say about that is that learning some new, non-trivial thing will lead most people to a phase of frustration, so please look at this feeling as normal and common. It is real and you can deal with it in a number of ways, including not giving up, and keep asking questions until you get meaningful answers.
On the face of it, Euphoria looks very user friendly, especially thanks to its easy and readable syntax. But then, when a user wants to go beyond the basics, things are not so easy anymore. For one, there is a huge lack of learning materials.
I totally understand where you are coming from here.
And I need to mention that this very same effect applies to every programming language out there. By definition 'the basics' are the easy stuff. And what exactly constitutes 'basic' varies from person to person.
Once you know a language's syntax, keywords, and fundamental concepts behind its view of things, you know its 'basics', but the effort then becomes applying that knowledge to real-world problems. This is not limited to the Euphoria language. Going beyond the basics usually involves algorithms, interfacing, and data issues - all of which are independent of the particular language you are using.
The learning materials you mention sound like you are wanting to see how Euphoria, specifically, can be used to solve actual problems. Fair enough.
Ok, but to be helpful, it would be good to know exactly what it is you would like to achieve using Euphoria; what is it you want to build?
Most of the Euphoria users are old-timers and, let's face it, there are almost no newbies around. My guess is that the actual adoption rate is very low. I must admit I don't have any statistics, and all I go by are the forum posts: apart from the occasional newcomer, the posts are mostly by old timers, discussing some highly advanced aspect of the language.
Now, what I was hoping to achieve from this thread is some better understanding, a clarification regarding the language developement policy of Euphoria (if there is one). The question is: are newbies ever going to be the target audience of the language developement efforts (or at least of some significant part of it)?
Because I'm one of the 'oldies' here, maybe I can't see the issue clearly. Can you be very specific about what would be useful for you to have developed for Euphoria?
The distinct impression that I got from reading this forum for several years is that most of the developing efforts (which include documentation, learning materials, not only language development alone) do not seem to care much for newbies. To me, it seems that the developement only goes on for the sake of the small community of the developers, who are expert programmers; if this is really the policy, newbies are bound to be left out, because they are unable to find the stepping stones that would allow them to progress.
Of course it's not the policy. That would be stupid in the extreme. Never prioritize conspiracy over ignorance.
What would the 'stepping stones' look like if you saw them? And please, please, be very specific. I can't read your mind.
Of course Euphoria is there for anyone, in theory, but in practice not everyone can benefit from it.
One can remove spark plugs with a hammer and chisel, but it's not recommended. Likewise, Euphoria is not the tool for every programming problem, so I would expect that certain applications will not be better off for using Euphoria over some more suitable programming language. Euphoria is a general purpose language, and as such, it doesn't have the built-in magic to deal with lots of specific situations. In general, if a library routine you need is not being supplied with the standard distribution, either write one or get someone else to write one for you.
As for enhancements to the language itself, these need extreme care in defining, planning, and implementation. Rushing though an enhancement is more likely to be counterproductive.
As pointed out in other posts, the manual is too technical, too terse. There are no up-to-date tutorials for the recent version of Euphoria. There are no schools or colleges teaching Euphoria, anywhere in the world, so all what a Euphoria learner can possibly hope for, in terms of tutorials and teaching resources, has to come from this website. Other resources for newbies such as the Rosetta Code website and the usingeuphoria.com website are not enough.
You are correct. Creating excellent tutorial material is a huge task, and one which is easy to royally stuff up.
Ideally, in my opinion, a good tutorial should be created, and continually refined, as a collaboration. It needs lots of different skill sets and perspectives. Maybe we can start this off by looking at what we have now, what has been started but not completed, and what newbies and oldies need from such material. With a clear set of goals, together we should be able to build something quite useful.
I would appreciate some comments from the developers and from the user community on this topic.
How'd I do? 
23. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by GreenEuphorian Jul 25, 2015
- 3176 views
- Last edited Jul 28, 2015
Thanks Derek for the truly *excellent* post, which was a pleasure to read, and for the encouragement that it contains.
After considering the matter with more attention, especially in the light of the replies in this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the problem I am facing actually boils down to two main factors:
1) scarcity of learning/reference materials geared for intermediate learners
2) lack of a lively beginner/intermediate-level user community
As for the first point, as already hinted to in the original post, what we (intermediate learners) most direly need is some tutorial that goes beyond the basics, providing real examples from mid-sized programs. Derek, you were asking me to be specific. Well, for starters I think that the various Python cookbooks could provide a useful source of inspiration here. In addition to those, a detailed case study of a real program would be most appreciated, possibly with a commentary that shows not only how the program works "as it is", but how it was designed and built in the first place. In an earlier post I was suggesting that Wee could serve well this purpose, if someone took the pains of commenting it and producing some sort of tutorial showing how it was designed and constructed from scratch. In short, it would be immensely useful if the experienced programmers who make up the bulk of the Euphoria community, or at least the developers' team, helped the learners by teaching them how to go about constructing non-trivial programs. This is something different (more advanced) from explaining the language commands, structures, etc. as in the manual. And it is also different from providing sample algorithms as in the Rosetta Code archive.
As for the second point, I find that the lack of a lively user community is a significant deterrent, because the learner does not feel so much motivated (although I must admit that the help in the forum is always satisfactory and quick in coming).
Once again, thanks all for the useful replies in this thread.
Edit: see here the suggestion to use Wee as case study http://openeuphoria.org/forum/128317.wc?last_id=128324
24. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by ghaberek (admin) Jul 26, 2015
- 3214 views
The distinct impression that I got from reading this forum for several years is that most of the developing efforts (which include documentation, learning materials, not only language development alone) do not seem to care much for newbies. To me, it seems that the developement only goes on for the sake of the small community of the developers, who are expert programmers; if this is really the policy, newbies are bound to be left out, because they are unable to find the stepping stones that would allow them to progress.
Of course it's not the policy. That would be stupid in the extreme. Never prioritize conspiracy over ignorance.
We'd all do well to remember Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. 
-Greg
25. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by newphil82 Dec 19, 2015
- 2452 views
I've had a little teaching experience - perhaps this could be a tiny scrap of help? First you need a 'guinea-pig' or two to tell you what phrases will be understood ... experts are not good on their own! Then:- - -
IMPORTANT STARTING POINT PERHAPS? Visiting the website can be off-putting! Make it less so by offering and 'advertising' ONE CONSPICUOUS "BEGINNER'S CORNER" OPTION, sheltering the newbie from the scary grown-up stuff! A basic 'version one' wouldn't be very elaborate? Couldn't it be grown gradually?
Since choice can confuse a newbie, Beginner's Corner might recommend just ONE download/install (at least, for Windows). This need not be the very latest? "Lesson one" would promise an interesting future, but start with only one or two 'adventures' or 'appetizers'. (For the more confident there'd be a caution plus a few links to other demo pages.) In my dreams there'd be a special Beginner's Corner forum for feedback and suggestions, which might help the Corner to develop. A list of common mistakes perhaps.
The first window exercise would just be a 'form' asking for window title, sizes (in fraction format?) and a FEW other options, menus perhaps ... Press 'Code' and see/run the result. (Yes, you've guessed it! I've been visiting the Rebol site!)
Some sites offer video instructions: these can be UNhelpful. At least I can stop and go back slowly over TEXT instructions.
Sorry I can't be more help! - newphil82
26. Re: Is Euphoria ever going to be newbie-friendly?
- Posted by ChrisB (moderator) Dec 20, 2015
- 2451 views
Hi
This topic has been covered before, but there is a difference between learning to program, and learning to write programs in euphoria.
Euphoria is newbie friendly, but all the things that have been done for euphoria have assumed a basic level of understanding of programming - and this requires some effort.
So I ask myself, how did I learn, and why did I want to learn. I started with a VIC20 several hundred years ago, typing in the programs appearing in magazines, and debugging them, spending hours and hours looking for that one decimal point that was out, or that one goto that pointed to the wrong line. And I read about computers and programming voraciously.
I have progressed to writing a 30000 line program in euphoria that runs my veterinary practice, and I'm still spending hours debugging and hunting down that off by one sequence references and any number of other tiny niggling things - nothing changes.
So if you are looking to have written the next WoW within a week, then this is probably not the right programming language for you - or any other programming language for that matter.
Euphoria is a great program to learn programming, but just like any other language, requires some effort and time to understand. euiup looks very promising as a really simple and get you going new euphoria install (I've just answered a quick question over there, awaiting the response) However, we do have a great community, so if you asked anything about anything, even if it was in the manual, you would get an answer and a guide as to how to do it. You have read the manual, haven't you?
As a quick beginner experiment, I even wrote a Hunt the wumpus program on the forums - it makes a great start program to tear down and build back up again, and as one of the first computer games ever, is actually quite fun to play. You can find it here http://openeuphoria.org/wiki/view/HuntTheWumpus.wc and the thread is here http://openeuphoria.org/forum/114690.wc#114690
This thread http://openeuphoria.org/forum/128299.wc#128299 also covered this, and there seems to be a consensus that there are no beginners guides. Perhaps this is true, but tear down the sample programs.
There are some books in the archive try
http://www.rapideuphoria.com/how2prog.pdf and http://www.rapideuphoria.com/book.doc
I have added these to the euWiki
http://openeuphoria.org/wiki/view/Begin%20Programming.wc
The wiki also has some tutorial links
http://openeuphoria.org/wiki/view/TutorialsOnTheWeb.wc
So there is plenty of stuff here, and pretty much all of us are happy to hand hold. Just ask.
Cheers
Chris
