OpenEuphoria

1. Message List

• Posted by Fernando Jul 17, 2008
• 981 views

Comments:

• When I try to change the page in Message List, it shows the Thread list. Is this intentional ?
  
• When pressing the button "Subject List", the "Message List" shows up. I would suggest to use the same name to minimize confusion.
  

-Fernando

3. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 17, 2008
• 969 views

You were the minority. The majority now thinks it is correct. Or at least the vocal majority. It will come soon enough that you can set the preference. You can also simply bookmark: http://openeuphoria.org/EUforum/index.cgi?module=forum&action=list

Jeremy

5. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 17, 2008
• 1080 views

There was no poll, but on early stages quite a few people complained strongly about the subject list view and why there was no thread view. Further, the thread view is the standard of any forum software I've seen.

That information is available on the Threaded Message List as well. You have the Star icon. The thing is, you can get more threads shown at one time because there are not 10 messages for 1 thread at the top of the list. I recently ~2 hours made a change to the what happens when you click a subject in the Threaded View. It no longer takes you to the top of the message list, but it now takes you to the first message in the thread that you have not read. So, there may be 5 new posts to the thread. When you click on the thread subject, you are taken to the first one you did not read. You can scroll up to get things more in context if you want.

It's ordered by the last post date. Let's say the forum has Two posts on it:

1. About the Forum...... posted at 10:45am Last post..... none
2. Hello World.......... posted at 10:15am Last post..... none

Now, let's say you reply to Hello World. The order will now show the most recent activity at the top, the view will change to:

1. Hello World.......... posted at 10:15am Last post..... 11:15am by Derek
2. About the Forum...... posted at 10:45am Last post..... none

Now someone else creates a brand new thread:

1. Brand new thread..... posted at 11:22am Last post..... none
2. Hello World.......... posted at 10:15am Last post..... 11:15am by Derek
3. About the Forum...... posted at 10:45am Last post..... none

Now someone replies again to the Hello World thread:

1. Hello World.......... posted at 10:15am Last post..... 11:32am by Someone
2. Brand new thread..... posted at 11:22am Last post..... none
3. About the Forum...... posted at 10:45am Last post..... none

Now, you Bernie comes along and sees that Hello World has new posts and Brand new thread is also new. He chooses to read the Hello World thread first. He already read the original message, so it jumps to the 2nd in the list, which is the first one he did not read. He can then read in the same thread, keeping the same context, frame of reference, the rest of the thread. He can then move to the new post "Brand new thread."

The same context is important. Let's say this was a subject list, it would look something like:

1. Re: Hello World...... by Someone
2. Brand new thread..... by John Doe
3. Re: Hello World...... by Derek
4. About the Forum...... posted at 10:45am Last post..... none
5. Hello World.......... posted at 10:15am Last post..... none

So, Bernie reads the first unread message, which is Hello World. He has to think about what the original thread was about. Then he switches gears and reads about brand new thread. Decides to follow up. Then he hits the next unread message, now he has to shift gears again and think about Hello World again.

Now, more importantly... He decides to reply to your post about Hello World asking for more information so he can answer your question. However, he has not read the post to Hello World by Someone, because he is in single message view and reading message by message. Well, Someone better understood your question and answered it. Thus, making his post (now newer) not helpful or useful. The thread has already been completed.

Jeremy

7. Re: Message List

• Posted by euphoric (admin) Jul 17, 2008
• 968 views

Don't know if I voted, but I vote single view. It's just more convenient, and that's a fact.

9. Re: Message List

• Posted by ChrisB (moderator) Jul 17, 2008
• 945 views

Its perfect the way it is now, just like I always wanted, and thats a fact ( I want a smiley with a pokey out tongue, winking, red cheeks, and sticky up hair in here - whats the code)

Chris

11. Re: Message List

• Posted by euphoric (admin) Jul 17, 2008
• 960 views

Good idea! Jeremy, how about a smilies list at the bottom, along with the common formatting instructions.

13. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 17, 2008
• 955 views

Um, it had threaded view in which as soon as EUforum (new) came online many people said, hey what happened to the threaded view? How am I suppose to read this thing like this?

Most

Huh?!? You may read lists like that, but I follow many myself that are lucky to get 1 post a week!

We have 30,398 right now and of course growing.

Here are the number of posts every day for the past two months:

Hm, I and others must not have been aware we lived on Mars

Jeremy

15. Re: Message List

• Posted by Matt Lewis Jul 17, 2008
• 946 views

Dude, stop feeding the trolls. :P

Matt

17. Re: Message List

• Posted by irv Jul 17, 2008
• 933 views

I like it just fine. It can only get better when we are able to save our individual exccentricities in cookies (or whatever). Already, it's much nicer and easier to use than most forums I use.

19. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 17, 2008
• 947 views

I'm confused, but I guess it's just simple sociology. When I put online EUforum to start, one of the first things that started to be complained about was the lack of the Threaded View and how the Threaded View should be the default view and how Threaded View is the standard in forum software, which it indeed is! And the threaded view that is shown here on EUforum works exactly as it does in phpBB and others. phpBB is the largest forum software that exists, meaning the one with the largest install base. Every phpBB based forum I have ever seen has always been thread based view.

I think where the sociology comes into play is At first, the ones w/o thread view were without therefore felt the need to speak out about their misfortune. Those who were happy (the Subject View folks) silently ignored the discussions because they were happy with what they had and didn't really care what threaded message list really is, let alone get involved in the discussion. Now that threaded view is the default, the Subject View people feel they are without now they are speaking up.

I really see only benefit from the Threaded View, as do other forum software developers. Can someone please explain to me what they feel is so complex about it? I believe I described pretty well (maybe not) how it works in this message:

http://openeuphoria.org/EUforum/index.cgi?module=forum&action=message&id=100957#100957

Please read that post all by itself, starting after Derek's last quote. I think it's intuitive, keeps you on focus, reduces the amount of information swapping, link clicking, mis-posts, etc... Then once you read that, please let me know where Threaded View is confusing or is lacking in ability. Maybe it's something we can all learn from and make the forum even better.

Jeremy

21. Re: Message List

• Posted by Derek Parnell Jul 17, 2008
• 950 views

I don't think I said that there should not be a threaded view. However, I can see where our experiences might have molded our different points of view. I tend to avoid web-based forums because they (yes, this is an opinion) tend to be more cumbersome to use than simpler lists. Maybe I've had too much exposure to Usenet.

Thank you for this.
However there might be a bug or two. I current have a against "EuWiki - Up" thread, so that means that I haven't read all the messages, right? However, I have read them all. Even reloading the page won't convince the forum that I've read them all. So, sometimes the works. As for going to the message I haven't read, again sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't - I can't predict what it will do.
But assuming all that worked ... here I am ... I started in Thread view, clicked on a thread, takes me to the message I haven't read ... I read it ... then I want to go to the next message I haven't read. Hmmm... there is no button that will do that. I have to press [BACK] or [Message List] button (which btw is really a thread list), then click on the next 'unread' thread.

Whereas what I do now is click on [Subject list] (which, btw is really a message list) then click on the oldest unread message, then after reading it, click on the [Newer] button to get the next message. I find this simple and intuitive. Maybe its because I'm a bit simple, eh?

Thank you, it wasn't terribly clear at first glance.

Unless of course, "Bernie" isn't as simple as you have portrayed.

I find that "shifting gears" is no effort. I nearly always read all messages before replying.

Also you seem to be talking about Threaded View in which all messages for a given thread are on the same page, but I was initially talking about the Threaded List view, they are not the same.
It is also possible for someone using Threaded View to reply to a message before they read the rest of the messages in the thread, no?

23. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jason Gade Jul 17, 2008
• 949 views

I've read quite a few forums on the Internet, using phpBB, vBulletin, Xoops, and others. I am quite familiar with the concept of threads.

However, like ChrisB accused, I am a "stick in the mud". I'm used to Euforum behaving in a certain way and I prefer to read it in that way. I prefer to read all messages in chronological order, not subject order.

But I'm not asking you to change anything I've seen enough people request threads and/or standard forum-type behavior to know that some people prefer that. I'm personally okay with either clicking on the "subject view" (really should be "list view") button or going directly to it manually.

25. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 17, 2008
• 955 views

Oh! It just dawned on me. Someone on IRC was reporting the same issue but did not state which thread. It all makes sense now. In the main post (the thread starter), I cache the last_post_id. I look to see if you have read that post_id to determine if there are new messages or not. With the EuWiki - Up thread, I had Ryan post a message or two there for testing, then immediately deleted them. I read them. Hardly no one else (except Ryan) read them. Now on the EuWiki thread, it's looking to see if you have read a post that no longer exists. It sees you have not. Viewing the message thread still does not make you read it, as it no longer exists.

I will fix this thread of that issue. When the user accounts come, there will be a real admin interface which admins can delete messages and it'll take care of updating the cached data. My DELETE FROM ...... did not. Sorry about that. However, bug identified and bug will be fixed.

Ok... So you want a next thread and previous thread, which is forthcoming.

Many people do not and it's not their fault, it's the way the Subject List View makes people act.

Hm, I used the wrong term. I have been talking about the Threaded List View. I need to go back and review all the terminology and fix it. I'll probably do that once everyone gets use to the warped terms used now.

Possible, yes.

Jeremy

27. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 17, 2008
• 959 views
• Last edited Jul 18, 2008

Fixed

Jeremy

29. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 17, 2008
• 959 views
• Last edited Jul 18, 2008

Yes, I do everything in SVN. I could revert, or I could fix the bug Let me work on fixing the bug.

Jeremy

31. Re: Message List

• Posted by Jeremy Cowgar Jul 18, 2008
• 952 views
• Last edited Jul 19, 2008

This is fixed.

Jeremy

33. Re: Message List

• Posted by CChris Jul 19, 2008
• 946 views

I read EuForum messages on two different computers, at home and at work.

Sorting out which messages I read already is much simpler with a chronological list with timestamps than with a thread view, because with the latter it is not straightforward to determine what was read or not, apart from remembering the posts.

Waiting for user accounts so as to get over the issue once for all. But I found the switch to thread view by default problematic for the reason above.

CChris