Re: What's wrong with Euphoria??? Newbie perspective...
EU-NOW: My comments are below:
<snip>
> More things to think about:
>
> . You tell people that you learned about this great new programming
> language called Euphoria, but they usually go "What???, Is that like
> Crack???".
If people don't use a language just because of its name, then they are
obviouslaly not really interested in it anyway.
EU-NOW: You are confusing some different concepts here. It not that
people don’t use Euphoria because of it’s name, the issue is that
people do not know about Euphoria, have never programmed in Euphoria,
and since they do NOT know anybody that has used it than they are very
distrusting of it.
> . You then proceed to, wishfully, give them some programs that you
> created in Euphoria or direct them to this website. But, you then
> often get, "So what's different about using Euphoria in comparison to
> VBScript, Perl, Python, Object Pascal, AutoIt, AutoHotKey, etc...??"
> Of course an Euphoria supporter says the pretty and smart syntax.
Besides other things ...
> But then you mention its PAYWARE and then the other guys are like...
> "Hey man, AutoIT, AutoHotKey, all kinds of version of Pascal, Basic,
> Perl, Python, etc... is FREE. Free, dude, free!!!"
My apartment, my car, my bread and coffee is payware, too.
I also like free stuff, but several people claim to get anything and
everything for free. That is not realistic.
BTW: The main part of Euphoria *is* free.
EU-NOW:
You are misunderstanding the point and overlooking the issue of the
Binder-
If you create a “free” program in Euphoria than you have to run it
with other Euphoria components, UNLESS you bind the program or use the
Euphoria to C translator, compile with a freeware C/C++ compiler, and
create and .exe/executable. The .exe/executable is what you give to
your friends and say, “Hey, I made this with Euphoria.” Hopeful
response: ”What, this great program was made in Euphoria? Wow, maybe I
should learn that programming language so I can make apps like these.”
But, if you give people a bunch of strange looking files, tell them
to download “x” or do “y” in order to get into run, etc… Many will NOT
do it. The point is to get people to USE and RELY on Euphoria. That
is not happening they way things are done with Euphoria right now.
When Network Admin. Or companies are using Euphoria to create very
important programs than things are going right for Euphoria and RDS.
Many will not use an executable that has “Adware” on it either. Plus,
a “freeware” Binder of Euphoria, means it can be put to work with no
hassles. You should look at Euphoria from the perspective of its
competition. Those scripting and programming language that are in
“competition” and/or being used INSTEAD of Euphoria are often FREE.
If you are a company and your competition is giving out discounts,
free turkey, etc… with their product than your sales and market share
are usually going to suffer. The only way they don’t usually suffer
is that your product’s QUALITY is so superior to its competition that
it does not matter (like a BMW to a Yugo). Obviously, Euphoria is
being “undercut” by its free competition and it is arguably NOT
technical superior enough or is part of a quality package that can
overcome this.
Another part of this goes back to RDS strategy-
1. RDS is arguably USING FREEWARE apps created by others for
NON-profit, to SELL its products. The most prominent thing you see on
the site is the freeware apps. This can be OK, if we are talking
about RDS putting out a quality package and the freeware is
supplementing it. In Actually, it looks more like the freeware is
providing the main role of support to any of RDS’s products. The main
reason may will want to use Euphoria, besides is very good language
syntax, is the FREEWARE. So, “what” is supporting “what”, in terms of
freeware versus payware, looks backwards…
2. The other issue is ADDING VALUE to a “QUALITY” product. The
Binder is not adding as much value at this point, now that you have
the Euphoria to C translator. RDS products are starting to look like
“GOTCHAs”. A “gotcha” is often considered something a company sells
you after they tricked you into using their product or something that
is essential to using a company’s product. A company selling a
“gotcha” is OK with many consumers when it is clearly adding VALUE.
Making users pay for the Binder in my opinion is actually hurting
Euphoria from catching on. It is also setting RDS up to be CLONED.
Obviously, those that like the Euphoria language and can program are
going to be saying, “Why in the HELL am I paying for the Binder???”
“Why am I paying for an update for this Binder every year???” “Why
does say AutoIT, Kixtart, Free versions of Pascal, Free versions of
Basic, etc… allow me to make FREE .exe/executables, but Euphoria does
not???? Thus, there is this “drive” to have an Open Euphoria project
and that was only a FEW reasons to clone Euphoria. Think about the
other reasons why???
> . Then you try to go technical with them about it and explain how much
> easier it is to use Euphoria than say C/C++ or even Visual Basic, but
> that argument starts to crack up real soon. Why?? One reason is the
> power of these newer scripting languages. AutoIt, AutoHotKey, all
> kinds of automation/scripting languages, etc... are EASY to learn.
I never saw a general purpose programming language that is as simple and
easy to learn as Euphoria.
EU-NOW: Again, I believe you are mistaken. You have been seduced by
Euphoria’s great syntax. Yes, Euphoria is a very good programming
language. Of that there is not doubt, so that’s why I’m here. But,
you also have to think about NEWBIE programmers, PART-time
programmers, and POWER USERS that do NOT want to get too heavily
involved in programming. They want easy, general use, and powerful.
Euphoria is NOT AS easy to setup in many cases as other freeware
programs. This goes back to an oversight in “hooking” newbie users.
. Euphoria is easier than C/C++ there is no doubt, but Euphoria IS NOT
as easy as using a MACRO RECORDER/Automation or SCRIPTING in some
other languages. The reason for this is not just the syntax but the
TOOLS. What kind of EDITOR, IDE, MACRO RECORDER, POP-UP HELP, SYNTAX
COMPLETION, etc… does the programming language have??? Look at
AutoIT, KixTart, etc… The have some SUPERIOR freeware tools in
comparison to Euphoria that makes their languages very easy to learn
and to use. Information on how to use VBScript, Object Pascal, C/C++
is starting to show up everywhere too now and more freeware tools keep
coming for these languages. Its not just about they syntax, but also
about the TOOL offered as well. Now Euphoria has some great freeware
tools, but many do not come from RDS, but from the USERS.
> They can do AUTOMATION. You use a MACRO RECORDER and it will record
> your keystrokes, mouse clicks, etc... Now you guys, might think that
> is for babies, but for programming newbies that FREE automation/macro
> recorder is very hard to be. Plus those macro recordings can be saved
> as scripts. So the newbies to automation/scripting languages then can
> get deeper and start modifying the scripts. AutoIT and KixTart, for
> example, can now call DLLs, starting to do COM/OLE, etc...
Euphoria not only can call DLLs, it can *build* DLLs ...
It is *not* a scripting language, you've been told that before. So you
are comparing apples to oranges here.
EU-NOW:
1st off get it clear in your mind that I never said Euphoria is a
scripting language. I do compare Euphoria with scripting languages
because many scripting languages are very powerful and are coming
close to the “border” of what a scripting language is versus a
programming language. The border is often “building DLLs” and low
level functions, because many scripting languages can CALL DLLs, do
COM/OLE, etc…
So another HUGE factor is how much power do you need in a programming
language??? Many newbie, part-time programmers, network admin., etc…
will NOT see the need to build DLLs or get that deep at first.
Actually, I’m in this group. Therefore, they will use scripting
language and when they have hit a scripting language limits, then they
will switch.
Finally, there is no reason why Euphoria could not DO higher levels
things like AUTOMATION or adapt itself more as a scripting language to
compete with vbscript, jscript, perl, etc… Powerful scripting
languages are TAKING AWAY the need for Euphoria’s simple syntax (if
they even knew what it was) because they are simple too. Obviously,
they are not as powerful as Euphoria yet, but scripting languages like
AutoIT, Kixtart, WinBatch, Pascal/Delphi Script, etc… ARE becoming
increasingly more powerful. Euphoria, could very easily be adapted to
the “high end” to demonstrate its superiority to these other scripting
languages, but its not. That is a shame, so I’ve brought this up.
<snip>
> . You then try to get people to USE Euphoria, but they are like, "What
> the hell am I going to do with it?
That's up to them. They can program almost everything in Euphoria.
<snip>
> I'm saying, do something about this. Give the BINDER away for FREE.
> AutoIT, for example, is a compiled script. It uses the concept of
> "binding" with their script to the AutoIT exe. something very similar
> to Euphoria. If the Binder were free than people would TRY and USE
> Euphoria more.
Unless I have evidence to the contrary, I'll doubt it. What is your
reason for saying that?
EU-NOW: 1ST off the circumstantial evidence is the lack of Euphoria
users. Look around. Euphoria as a technically superior language,
should be “kicking butt”, but it ain’t. Ask yourself why??? Free
scripting languages are “taking the high end” and Free programming
languages are “taking the low end”. C/C++, .NET crap, etc… are still
dominating the professional and world standard side or programming.
So, where does that leave Euphoria??? Euphoria has a rapidly
decreasing small niche.
In fact MARK what I’m typing to you. Euphoria has a small window of
only 1 to 3 years left, before it become an irrelevant computer
language unless it begins to adapt, change, and/or attract more users.
The fastest way for Euphoria to attract more users is for RDS to let
go of the Binder and to give it away for free, to let Euphoria become
open-source, or for an OPEN Source Euphoria Clone to become more
prominent. One of the best way for Euphoria to become more adaptive
and innovative more quickly is to make it open source and for RDS to
make its money on “around” and ever growing Euphoria and through
VALUE adding tools. RDS could write that Euphoria BOOK, it can still
KEEP that Euphoria to C translator, it could push making money off of
expanded SUPPORT service, customized solutions, etc… Even as open
source, there will be money to be made off of Euphoria.
RDS, could setup standards for Euphoria. RDS can embrace the clones,
have them meet RDS standards, and encourage them in order to push the
Euphoria language. OR RDS can refuse to let Euphoria expand and watch
it die or become irrelevant in the next few years.
<snip>
> . Then I direct some people to Euphoria's website and another story
> unfolds. They can't get Euphoria to INSTALL PROPERLY, they are
> CONFUSED by what to install, they are CONFUSED by how the INCLUDES work
> (which is usually related to install and environment setup issues, etc...).
Sorry, I can't understand the problem. The installation is simple. The
documentation is very good.
EU-NOW: When your documentation has newbie users going to the control
panel, system, and adding environmental variables than something is
way WRONG with the setup. OTHER setup programs can figure out HOW to
make things install properly on the main operating system its working
on, so why can’t RDS do the same????
By the way this seems to be one of the re-activated Open Euphoria Links:
ftp://jbn:jbnnoord at 129.125.22.13/peu/
http://www.topica.com/lists/OpenEU/read
http://www.eberlein.org/euphoria/
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