Re: Ideas for next Eu
- Posted by nieuwen at XS4ALL.NL
Nov 14, 1999
> Constants occupy real memory and namespace and are inherently
They don't. The interpreter just 'fills' em in, and releases the memory.
Would they occupy real memory, you would be allowed to make constants
dynamically,
rather than only on the top-level. (so, they can all be replaced before the code
is start)
> I absolutely deny that peek and poke are the only way to accomplish
> what you are speaking of here. Even C allows access to variables in
> inline assembler rather than force the type of machine code level
> programming that peek and poke generate.
The grammer of language, determines how we manage our code. This I won't get
into now.
The routines/commands of a language, determine what our code is capable of
doing. There
are a million things really *not* possible without peek & poke. From custom
mouse routines,
to ... plus, about these routines: don't like 'em, don't use them. All these
examples of better
interfaces to win32 .. ("even C allows .. ") .. all these alternatives can be
added to Euphoria
by writing a routine and putting it into a library ... those routines however
would use peek and
poke. Now what if you like your alternative and I like another, should Robert
add them both
? Of say, I'm giving your peek/poke and you help yourself. Programming is always
about
doing something hard in the most simple way possible. You don't want to program.
You want
to be able to say .. "eh like-doom, but eh .. the gun should look like .. and
.. " ... or you
could just write the freaking enginge yourself in Euphoria. Low-level acces is a
must. Think
about it. Technically, you should be able to do anything with Euphoria. From any
type of
algorithm to acces to every part of the system. The whole declare_dll, etc. part
of Euphoria is
actually redunant as well. (it could have been done in Euphoria, and put into an
include) ..
> Minimalist does not mean small or even simple. It means the minimum
> necessary to effiiently accomplish the goal(in the dictionary according to
> Everett Williams 
) I am a strong believer in Occam's razor, that says
Look at what you're now saying. It goes completely against the argument you use
againt
poke & peek. And considering the subject, you are using the argument on. It's
rubbish.
Routine-id has more right to exist (using YOU"re definition of minimalistic!)
than normal the
ability to directly call a function. It would allow us to write/use any scope
mechanism that we
like, very powerfyll, it really is the minimum nessasary to accomplish any goal.
> allow a less than optimum solution. Usually the problem is altered by
> non-technical factors such as time, money, etc.
Eh .. ok.
> code that will truly injure the clean, minimal nature of Euphoria before
> they are excised.
Completely the opposite. What you want to do is limit what is possible with
Euphoria.
Less goals, less features. Irregardless of the fact I couldn't care less or more
about
minimalistic (it's not a goal on itself! it's just a word you came accros in
Robert mail the other
day 
... now, speaking about cheating (as you were occusing Roderick of) ...
*thats*
cheating. With the routine-id mechanism, David is capable of writing Liama ..
99% of Liama
runs using any GUI. 1% is the OS-specific part. Would routine-id be replaced by
specific
interfaces that differ (routine-id and the dll-linkage routines are all equal
for every OS) for
each OS, he would have to write that 99% differently for each OS.
Minimalistic you say ?
> I don't ordinarily like to insert comments in the middle of a paragraph,
> but this time I must. Having Euphoria ready to and capable of
> handling the business programming environment is my most
> fervent wish. IDE's and similar items are just tools to effect that end.
> I'm not into "really cool" of any kind. I'm into getting work done. I just
> borrowed somebody else's phrase.
Most of us are doing this Euphoria stuff for fun. What makes your motives so
much more
important than ours. Plus, those tools are already there. Why re-invent a wheel,
instead of
creating something new, fill a gap, ....... maybe some prefer a bicycle ..
> That must have been my evil twin My only interest in GUI's is
> that they are where most programming is done these days. If
Yeah, yeah. Cities are where most ppl live. Is this because of the much
healthier environment
? Is this because of the all the great advantages of living in a big city. You
know, smoke,
traffic jams .. etc.
So, now you want to cut down the trees, and turn this forest into big city no.
23987u52
Great!
> Sancho Panza's burro. The big "IF" is "DOES Rob want to see
> major commercial use of his language", period. I WOULD DEARLY
Come on. Would he do that, MS Euphoria would be out in a week, packed with every
new
version of windows, and within month market leader in the 'euphoria section'.
Maybe Robert
is just picking fights he can win.
You think its all *that* easy. That is really works like your simplied version
of reality,
simplified in need for you comprehension. Maybe, just maybe, there's more to it.
Plus, trying to create a perfect language, has got nothing to do with a
development curve, a
future plan, or whatever. Only huge companies take that route. They, purposely,
create an
non ideal program, that can be replaced by better versions for years to come.
Honest, a
perfect OS is not commercially effective, unless you patents every part of it.
But I don't think
any small company is capable of such high legal investments of today's
-out-of-balance-
society where courts rule over the other two (what were they again ? lol.)
aspects of
democracy that should have been able to keep the judge from playing god.
> Of course, anyone who learns on Euphoria is really going to hate
> the "real" world of C, etc. and wonder why Euphoria never grew up.
I'm already hating C. So why create another ?
You can't be on top of a mountain and be perfect. Goverments are never
right.Jalousy and
affection really are the two only emotion, we're having. The best music is never
to be found in
charts, pushed by their marketing agents (ouch, there I said it!) Looks are
important ...
.................. and Euphoria can't be great and be used by the avarage user
as well. It just
doesn't work that way!
The avarage user, uses avarage tools. The avarage music listener listens to
avarage music.
And the avarage tree catches an avarage amount of wind. You're an idealist, like
most of us
are, but you should be realistic as well. Euphoria's development is part of
Robert's Income.
We all want to change the world, but are you're risking your ass ?
> corporation in the late 70s when b meant a big number and didn't make
> anybody think of Bill Gates.
Bill Gates got the avarage user involved in PC's.
What does it got to do with us ?
> >>Insult was no part of my intent.
> >>Progress is.
> >
> >Likewise with my comments.
Likewise.
> If the answer to the above critical question is YES, then I guess I will
> try to pipe down and wait to see what Rob's next move is. I am not into
> guru's or other such theocracies, no matter how God-like or capable,
> so being dependent on the whim of a single person gives me gas.
Learn C. Write your own language. Why not use this urge to independency as a
creative
stimulans ? Because you are right, it's unfortunate that we're all so dependent
on some much.
Of which most are just ungraspable mechanics of society, rather than persons you
can
discuss with. Wouldn't it be great if there was a director of social rules, open
for any new
ideas and critism ? ... I think we're lucky that we are talking to a person.
Rather than to
society, companies, or goverments. Would this mailing list still be able when
Euphoria is as
big as you want it to be ? No it, wouldn't .. how would you feel when
you've got a mail
like you had, but didn't have a place to sent it to. When you weren't part of
the discussion.
Dependance is one thing. At least you're able to have some influence.
Ralf Nieuwenhuijsen
[[ Email ]]
nieuwen at xs4all.nl
ralf_n at email.com
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UIN: 9389920
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http://www.xs4all.nl/~nieuwen
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