Re: Localized Euphoria identifiers
Alexander Toresson wrote:
>Igor Kachan wrote:
>>
>> Hi Juergen,
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>> Why? Are the standard 7 bit ASCII characters -- which are
>>>>> normally used for the identifiers -- not available on
>>>>> Russion operating systems?
>>>>
>>>> They are fully available, sure.
>>>>
>>>> But all Russian chars are in 128..255 range. Imagine yourself
>>>> writing your program in Russian.
>>>> Then imagine some Russian kid writing his program in English.
>>>> We need learn English first, then to program.
>>>
>>> I don't think you have to learn English first, in order to be able
to
>>> learn programming in Euphoria (or C or whatever).
>>
>> You just do know English well enough to understand the
>> Euphoria English documentation.
>> Euphoria and English are almost the same things now, I think.
>> Euphoria programming language is very meaningful in English,
>> but pure English Euphoria program with very good (say, rich)
>> English comments is fully meaningless for Russian reader
>> who *doesn't know* English. Isn't it?
>And russian comments are fully meaningless to anyone but Russians.
No, they are meaningful for all Russian-speaking
people - xUSSR + all foreign xStudents of USSR and Russian
universities, I think, more than 300 millions at all.
>English is the most widely used language on the web.
>It offers best "compatibility".
Yes, most, but in Runet (Russian and xUSSR Internet) Russian
is almost only language.
>And because programmers are quite few and use computers a lot,
>most communication is based around the net. I strongly suggest
>that someone who intends to be a programmer learns English.
Yes, you are right, professional programmer must know English
very well. And, by the way, there are different English langs in
different OS' - Windows English, UNIX English, Linux English etc,
and in different programming languages - C English, Pascal English,
Basic English, Windows API English, Java English, a lot of
OOP English's and so on.
Euphoria has the most English_est English, I think. 
And I like Euphoria for its very good almost pure English.
Understandable English. Not mumbo-jumbo C English with
its 'voids', 'spawns' etc.
>> For example, try to understand my red.ex program - it has pure
>> Russian identifiers, but English keywords.
>I can't. That would be like me trying to understand Aku's code.
Sure, Ok, but *me myself* does understand that red.ex much better
than Rob's pure English ed.ex !
I wrote that red.ex for me myself, first of all, and for
those Russian-speaking people who would like to learn it better.
Euphoria is End User's language, let us remember about this EU.
I write programs for my own use, first of all.
I think in Russian. And only sometimes I think in English,
mostly when I sleep, yes, after reading of EUForum messages 
>>> You just have to learn: "When I write this, then the computer will
>>> do that ...", i.e. you'll have to learn the semantics and syntax
>>> of Euphoria, and Euphoria is not English.
>>
>> I can say that C is not English, but Euphoria seems to be almost
>> pure English for me.
>> People like Euphoria becouse of its almost pure English and
>> it is very meaningful for anyone English-speaking, I think.
>C is not english? Then what about this:
>for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
>{
> printf("%d ", i)
>}
>float a = 2
>while (a<10)
>{
> a *= 2.5
>}
>There are quite a lot of english words in this code:
>for, int, print, float, while.
>However, there are fewer than in Euphoria.
Yes, I am not against English, never was, and never
will be.
But I love understand very well what I'm doing with
my PC. I love understand my own programs.
I do understand and remember my program better if it is
well commented in Russian and if it has Russian names
for procedures, functions and variables.
>And when using third-party libraries, users will almost
>always have to read english documentation and identifiers
> -- English is the Esperanto of the web.
Using of third-party libraries is fully user's problem.
He/she must know author's language.
This is like to, say, literature, films, articles etc.
Author writes his book in his native language.
Then you can ask him for permission to translate his
good book into your native language.
Say, I asked Rob and Junko for permission to public
their html docs, translated into Russian.
Thanks to them for kind permission.
>>>> A Euphoria newbie who speaks English probably can
>>>> *easier remember* the meaning of Euphoria keywords etc., but
especially
>>>> kids normally don't have problems regarding memory and learning
anyway.
>>
>> Yes, but try to give Euphoria win32lib.ew without German documetation
>> to German-speaking newbie and force him to read this very clear Bible
>> without an English-German dictionary on PC and programming area.
>>
>> Or, better, Windows API C head file - windows.h
>See above.
Ok, I see, Windows API English is a great Mumbo Jumbo English.
Did you see the comments in some Open Watcom source files?
See below, for example, quoted text from the graph.h file :
-----
* The Original Code and all software distributed under the License
are
* distributed on an 'AS IS' basis, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND,
EITHER
* EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND SYBASE AND ALL CONTRIBUTORS HEREBY DISCLAIM
* ALL SUCH WARRANTIES, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, ANY WARRANTIES
OF
* MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, QUIET ENJOYMENT
OR
* NON-INFRINGEMENT. Please see the License for the specific language
* governing rights and limitations under the License.
*
*
========================================================================
*
* Description: WHEN YOU FIGURE OUT WHAT THIS FILE DOES, PLEASE
* DESCRIBE IT HERE!
*
****************************************************************************/
#ifndef _GRAPH_H_INCLUDED
#define _GRAPH_H_INCLUDED
#ifdef __cplusplus
extern "C"
-----
I see that our old good English was not that good
to DESCRIBE what does that file do.
I'll try to DESCRIBE it in Russian, some time later on, maybe.
>>> Now with the PD Open Eu version, I can write a "German Euphoria"
>>> interpreter in very short time. The code that it runs would look
like
>>> this:
>>> ganzzahl i
>>> i = 3
>>> solange i > 0 tue
>>> drucke i
>>> i -= 1
>>> ende solange
>heltal i
>i = 3
>salangesom i > 0 gor
> skriv(1, i)
> i -= 1
>slut salangesom
>Could be understood by 9 million people.
Ok, 300 million of Russian-speaking,
plus these 9 will use Euphoria.
>As opposed to:
>integer i
>i = 3
>while i > 0 do
> print(1, i)
> i -= 1
>end while
>Could be understood by at least 1-2 billion people.
Ok, 309 + 2000 = 2309 million will use Euphoria.
>See the difference?
Yes, I see. Plus 309 million of Euphorians. Not that bad.
>>> Would someone have to learn German in order to be able to write or
>>> understand this? No.
>>
>> Why learn? Just give this example to German-speaking newbie and
>> ask him to compare this your variant with *pure Euphoria*
>> equivalent construct. Then ask *him* what is better for *him*.
>What if he releases it? Only german people will understand it.
Ok, plus all German-speaking to those 309.
>> Why not? And I'm sure, that newbie will understand your German
>> program without any documentation, just now.
>Why make a small improvement to coding for a few million people,
>that will cause major inconveniencies for the other few billions?
309 million is not "a few" million. EUForum is just about 500 members.
>>> Would there be an advantage? I can't see any.
>>
>> Try, Juergen. I have thanks from Russian-speaking people for
>> these things. For translated Euphoria documentation and for
>> Russian names for Euphoria elements.
>Documentation is totally different from the language elements.
Yes, but documentation just explains those elements.
Documentation is short - elements are selfexplained in English.
I want them selfexplained in Russian too. Is it too bad wish
for programming language? I am for PC or PC is for me?
>Translating the documentation to another language is good. It will not
>cause any harm to people who doesn't speak the language. However,
>how would non-russian people understand code written in your special
>russion euphoria?
This is not a special Russian Euphoria. It just can run Russian text
same as English one. Rules are the same, identical, just interpreter
understands English, and Russian, and any mix of English and Russian
keywords, plus you can add your own procedures, types, functions
and variables in any your native language.
Then, one similar issue about languages again.
There is Russian literature, poetry, science, cinema, theatre,
opera, books, cookery-books :) etc etc etc.
Why not for programming?
If you like my Russian code, it may be converted into standard
English code very easily.
If no, what a problem? Learn Russian Very interesting language.
>>> This is not a German sentence, and I will have to learn the
>>> *Euphoria* rules anyway, in order to understand what the code does.
>>
>> Yes, maybe, but the *words* are German and they have a lot of sense
>> for German-speaking programmer in a specific sentence of programming
>> language.
>There are just a few keywords in Euphoria, which easily can be learnt,
>even if you don't speak English.
Yes, it is true, Euphoria itself is a simple and clear language.
But do not forget please about Windows API.
My red.ex editor has about 11000 color words, mainly for
API functions and constants. 11000 mumbo-jumbo words of
Bill's native tongue.
All these words may be translated into Russian now,
with their real sense, to make selfexplained API.
>>>>> With Russian keywords we can program in Russian.
>>>
>>> No, you will still program in Euphoria, not in Russian.
>>
>> Yes, you are right, in *pure* Euphoria, and just with Russian
>> words under *pure* Euphoria rules.
>Right.
Yes, of course.
>>> I think the main problem probably is not, that Euphoria keywords are
>>> often similar to English words, but that they consist of *Latin
>>> characters*. That's a different thing.
>>
>> I think, Euphoria keywords are pure English words, they have just
>> that understandable *sense*. And my Russian keywords have just the
>> same understandable *sense*. Euphoria's sense, stated in docs.
>> And generated IL code is the same.
>The Russian keywords are much less globally understood than
>the English ones. Often, not just the original programmer
>is gonna read the code.
Yes, bat many people writes their programs just for own use.
Say, I need very big and complicated program for my private
use. What language for identifiers, keywords and comments
will be better for such the program to make it clear and
understandable for me myself?
Sure Russian! I'm Russian and I think in Russian language.
And why I must program in my not very correct semi-English?
To make problems for me myself with understanding
of my own program?
>> And it is the very simple task - automatic changing of English words
>> to equivalent Russian words and vice versa.
>>
>> Programming language is very simple and we can translate just with
>> a table of keylist.e file and a dictionary of red.ex editor.
>Yes. But consider Chinese. They have other characters for everything.
>If someone made a Chinese version of Euphoria, nothing would be
>understandable by anything but the Chinese.
Chinese program may be shorter and faster than English or Russian one.
Every ideogram is just two bytes. It is a word, so to say.
But English and Russian words are long. More than two bytes in most
cases. This unlimited alphabet interpreter can understand Chinese
names too.
>>> Several thousand years ago the Babel of languages came into being,
which
>>> causes many problems especially nowadays, since the world "has
become
>>> small". Now people from all over the world can fast and easily
>>> communicate with each other, e.g. on EUforum.
>>> In this situation, I don't know whether it's a good idea to promote
a
>>> new "Babel of programming languages".
>>
>> Yes, you are right, I think. But do not forget please the intention
>> of Babel people.
>>
>> My intention is much more modest, I think, and our Euphoria helps us
>> In a few days, I'm going to submit the PD source code to RDS.
>Consider the following situation:
>You're idea propagates. Soon we have Euphoria in a lot of languages.
>Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, a few African languages, Spanish,
>German etc...
Ok, good, plus all these people to Euphoria community just now.
2000 + 309 + ... 5000 (I think :)
>Then they can't exchange code.
Why not? Just convert code to you native keywords and you will
see at least the algorithms.
>Imagine a japanese guy downloading some Spanish code
>that does something that's useful for him, but he can't integrate
>nor understand it.
No, just replace keywords.
>Only thing that would be needed for this to be avoided,
>is that both of them would learn a few English words.
Why a few? I have 11000 words in red.ex just now.
>Regards, Alexander Toresson
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
---
PS Sorry about not fast answer - have
some problems with HDD on my main
Win95 Internet box.
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