Re: Localized Euphoria identifiers
Alexander Toresson wrote:
> Igor Kachan wrote:
>>
>> Hi Juergen,
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>> Why? Are the standard 7 bit ASCII characters -- which are normally us=
ed
>>>>> for the identifiers -- not available on Russion operating systems?
>>>>
>>>> They are fully available, sure.
>>>>
>>>> But all Russian chars are in 128..255 range. Imagine yourself
>>>> writing your program in Russian.
>>>> Then imagine some Russian kid writing his program in English.
>>>> We need learn English first, then to program.
>>>
>>> I don't think you have to learn English first, in order to be able to
>>> learn programming in Euphoria (or C or whatever).
>>
>> You just do know English well enough to understand the
>> Euphoria English documentation.
Yes, but I was not talking about documentation. Of course documentation
in the mother tongue of a programmer is handy.
>> Euphoria and English are almost the same things now, I think.
>> Euphoria programming language is very meaningful in English,
>> but pure English Euphoria program with very good (say, rich)
>> English comments is fully meaningless for Russian reader
>> who *doesn't know* English. Isn't it?
>
> And russian comments are fully meaningless to anyone but Russians.
> English is the most widely used language on the web. It offers best
> "compatibility". And because programmers are quite few and use
> computers a lot, most communication is based around the net. I strongly
> suggest that someone who intends to be a programmer learns English.
I agree. Also for instance, the RFCs are written in English, and they
are deliberately not translated. The internet probably is already the
most important information technology, and its importance will increase
in the future. Without English, people can only use a small piece of all
available information on the internet. Also apart from the internet
English is important for scientists, business people, all other
professionals who want to communicate with their international
colleagues, for people who spend holidays in foreign countries ...
When I talk with my friends about education of children (to what kind
of school shall they go etc.), no one ever has asked: "Do you think my
daughter/son should go to a school where (s)he learns English?".
Of course nowadays every child should learn English.
>> For example, try to understand my red.ex program - it has pure
>> Russian identifiers, but English keywords.
>
> I can't. That would be like me trying to understand Aku's code.
>
>>> You just have to learn: "When I write this, then the computer will
>>> do that ...", i.e. you'll have to learn the semantics and syntax
>>> of Euphoria, and Euphoria is not English.
>>
>> I can say that C is not English, but Euphoria seems to be almost
>> pure English for me.
>> People like Euphoria becouse of its almost pure English and
>> it is very meaningful for anyone English-speaking, I think.
>
> C is not english? Then what about this:
>
> for(int i=0;i<10;i++)
> {
> printf("%d ", i)
> }
>
> float a = 2
> while (a<10)
> {
> a *= 2.5
> }
>
> There are quite a lot of english words in this code: for, int, print,
> float, while. However, there are fewer than in Euphoria.
>
> And when using third-party libraries, users will almost always have to
> read english documentation and identifiers -- English is the Esperanto
> of the web.
>
>>> A Euphoria newbie who speaks English probably can
>>> *easier remember* the meaning of Euphoria keywords etc., but especially=
>>> kids normally don't have problems regarding memory and learning anyway.=
>>
>> Yes, but try to give Euphoria win32lib.ew without German documetation
>> to German-speaking newbie and force him to read this very clear Bible
>> without an English-German dictionary on PC and programming area.
>>
>> Or, better, Windows API C head file - windows.h 
>
> See above.
>
>>> Now with the PD Open Eu version, I can write a "German Euphoria"
>>> interpreter in very short time. The code that it runs would look like
>>> this:
>>> ganzzahl i
>>> i = 3
>>> solange i > 0 tue
>>> drucke i
>>> i -= 1
>>> ende solange
>
> heltal i
> i = 3
> s=E5l=E4ngesom i > 0 g=F6r
> skriv(1, i)
> i -= 1
> slut s=E5l=E4ngesom
>
> Could be understood by 9 million people.
>
> As opposed to:
>
> integer i
> i = 3
> while i > 0 do
> print(1, i)
> i -= 1
> end while
>
> Could be understood by at least 1-2 billion people.
>
> See the difference?
Yep. We live in a "global village" these days, and sharing knowledge is
the way to go, not separating information.
>>> Would someone have to learn German in order to be able to write or
>>> understand this? No.
>>
>> Why learn? Just give this example to German-speaking newbie and
>> ask him to compare this your variant with *pure Euphoria*
>> equivalent construct. Then ask *him* what is better for *him*.
>
> What if he releases it? Only german people will understand it.
>
>> Why not? And I'm sure, that newbie will understand your German
>> program without any documentation, just now.
>
> Why make a small improvement to coding for a few million people, that
> will cause major inconveniencies for the other few billions?
Good question.
>>> Would there be an advantage? I can't see any.
>>
>> Try, Juergen. I have thanks from Russian-speaking people for
>> these things. For translated Euphoria documentation and for
>> Russian names for Euphoria elements.
>
> Documentation is totally different from the language elements.
> Translating the documentation to another language is good. It will not
> cause any harm to people who doesn't speak the language. However, how
> would non-russian people understand code written in your special
> russion euphoria?
>
>>> This is not a German sentence, and I will have to learn the
>>> *Euphoria* rules anyway, in order to understand what the code does.
>>
>> Yes, maybe, but the *words* are German and they have a lot of sense
>> for German-speaking programmer in a specific sentence of programming
>> language.
>
> There are just a few keywords in Euphoria, which easily can be learnt,
> even if you don't speak English.
Yep.
>>>> With Russian keywords we can program in Russian.
>>>
>>> No, you will still program in Euphoria, not in Russian.
>>
>> Yes, you are right, in *pure* Euphoria, and just with Russian
>> words under *pure* Euphoria rules.
>
> Right.
>
>>> I think the main problem probably is not, that Euphoria keywords are
>>> often similar to English words, but that they consist of *Latin
>>> characters*. That's a different thing.
>>
>> I think, Euphoria keywords are pure English words, they have just
>> that understandable *sense*. And my Russian keywords have just the
>> same understandable *sense*. Euphoria's sense, stated in docs.
>> And generated IL code is the same.
>
> The Russian keywords are much less globally understood than the English o=
nes.
> Often, not just the original programmer is gonna read the code.
>
>> And it is the very simple task - automatic changing of English words
>> to equivalent Russian words and vice versa.
>>
>> Programming language is very simple and we can translate just with
>> a table of keylist.e file and a dictionary of red.ex editor.
>
> Yes. But consider Chinese. They have other characters for everything.
> If someone made a Chinese version of Euphoria, nothing would be
> understandable by anything but the Chinese.
>
>>> Several thousand years ago the Babel of languages came into being, whic=
h
>>> causes many problems especially nowadays, since the world "has become
>>> small". Now people from all over the world can fast and easily
>>> communicate with each other, e.g. on EUforum. 
>>> In this situation, I don't know whether it's a good idea to promote a
>>> new "Babel of programming languages".
>>
>> Yes, you are right, I think. But do not forget please the intention
>> of Babel people.
>>
>> My intention is much more modest, I think, and our Euphoria helps us ;-=
)
>> In a few days, I'm going to submit the PD source code to RDS.
>>
>
> Consider the following situation:
>
> You're idea propagates. Soon we have Euphoria in a lot of languages.
> Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, a few African languages, Spanish,
> German etc...
<SCNR>
Of course one German version wouldn't be sufficient. We need versions in
Swiss German, Austrian, Bavarian, Saxon, Thuringian, ...
And without a Low German version, North German farmers probably will
never learn to program in Euphoria.
</SCNR>
> Then they can't exchange code. Imagine a japanese guy downloading some
> Spanish code that does something that's useful for him, but he can't
> integrate nor understand it. Only thing that would be needed for this
> to be avoided, is that both of them would learn a few English words.
>
> Regards, Alexander Toresson
Regards,
Juergen
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