Re: What we really need, gui, website, AI, etc
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Hi
I have been following the Euphoria mailing list for nearly a year now, and
am
one of the 'outsiders' previously described in one of the threads - I
haven't
(yet) bought the full licensed version of Euphoria.
A little background first. I am a full time veterinary surgeon, and a part
time coder. My main programming interest at the moment is the practice
management system which I have written (in C, on linux), which seems to
have
an endless of features which need to be added / I would like added / users
want added, I have a lovely understanding wife who can tolerate my
spending
endless evenings writing / modifying / tweaking the code, and three
children
who deserve as much of my time as I can give. I also do out of hours and
weekends on call. (no, I don't want sympathy, this is just the way it is).
Consequently my delving into Euphoria has been little more than dabbling.
(I
have experimented with EDS on my work Linux machine for a lost and found
database, but I am finding it hard going trying to learn essentially
another
syntax, when I am so familiar with C - enough of that)
Ok, the reason I'm writing this is because I want to add an 'outsiders'
view
of Euphoria.
Make no mistake, I think Euphoria is a great language, when I first read
about sequences, and no pointers, I thought 'at last', and then seeing how
well it worked in windows (on my 2.0ghz xp machine, I can see no
difference
between the speed of execution of a delphi program, and a similar Euphoria
program, I'm not talking about benchmarking, my brain doesn't need to do
that), I thought this is the language I have been looking for.
I subscribe to the Euphoria mailing and read it every day, I have even
chipped in a couple of times with one or two non specific queries. On
thread
was that no - one responded to the issues raised on the list. Personally I
find that the hardcore cadre of Euphorians reply so quickly to the issues
raised that they have already said what I was going to say any way (and
I'm
not implying that they should write less, just again, that is the way it
is,
which is great because it shows a great enthusiasm for the language). Also
any questions I have posed have almost been responded to in the next post,
and yet I have received 2 or 3 more tranches of emails of Topica posts, so
any response is almost out of date (I do try to say thanks though!)
The thing about Euphoria, as I see it, is it is a programmers language,
for
people who are interested in programming, and as such its appeal will IMHO
always remain limited. Here's a simple question - what can you do with it?
Demonstrate reordering of 10 squillion sequences in 0.5 microseconds? (of
course). Write a text / program editor (yes - suggestion, get it out in
the
wild). My point is that non programmers (or occasional hobby programmers)
do
not really care about this. They want to be able to plonk a box here, a
text
entry there, a button over there, and presto a full featured telephone
database.
Or, a tank here, a spaceship there, a few mines, a few running soldiers
over
the hill, and have there own wargame, to dump on the internet, and have
there
friends play, and ooh and awe at.
Euphoria has the capability to do either of these. Its just that the
learning
curve is a little too steep for it to really take off - yet. (My intention
is
not to insult people here by the way, merely to point things out as the
way I
see them).
I came across Exotica the other day. Good grief - that has some potential,
and frankly its been squandered - you want a killer app - there it is, it
needs a few wrappers, some brain modules (aka 3drad), ability to import
models, combined with the ease of Euphoria's variable system, trumpets
blown
for miles around on the website, and people will flock (probably!).
I see that Chris Bensler has just unsubscribed from the mailing lis. Hmm.
I
appreciate you Chris.
As far as the website goes - its designed for programmers, and obviously
does
its job well in that respect. Personally, one thing that infuriates me is
graphic intensity, but since that may not the 'masses' cup of tea, then a
sparklier graphicyier (?) frontpage with links to Euphoria's stars, and a
less graphic intensive archive would be a compromise.
Suggestions as to what Rob should do with his program - its his baby, and
he
can do with it what he likes, criticism as far as its stagnation goes is
unproductive. I agree that the size issue is no longer relevant with
current
technology, but Euphoria seems to be hugely expandable with its include
library system, so what difference does it make how small or big the
original
interpreter is? To quote an old adage, its not size that matters, but what
you do with it that counts!
The library base is huge (well I think it is anyway) - one thing is though
that I have to download a lot of the libraries - perhaps a lot of these
should be included with the package. And I agree - get a better install
program too (Bach's is great).
AI - the thread seems to have stalled a little, partially I think because
theres a huge hill to climb there. It is said that camel's were designed
by
commitee - hows the worm coming? (for what its worth, as far as I can see,
no
one has yet defined a definition of intelligence for what you're trying to
achieve, ie no one has defined the intelligent worm (an oxymoron?) yet -
good
luck on that definition!). Ah - if only I had the time for such a hugely
ambitious project.
Cross platform - of course there are going to be discrepancies between the
way the program works on Windows and Linux (I am neither pro nor con
either
operating system, they both have points in there favour, and points
against,
I use both, to me they are simply tools, and I use the best tool for the
job
in hand). It is one of the things that drew me to Euphoria. It works in
Linux, there is a distance to go as far as libraries go, Linux users tend
to
be geeks (meant in the nicest possible way of course), and will probably
mess
around until they get things to work. Irv's GTK library is marvellous, and
I
hope to post some things to the Euphoria site (when I get around to it
that
is!)
One day anyway, the operating system will be irrelavent - users won't care
whats on it, as long as they can use it, one will simply get a program,
pop
it into any computer, and whatever os is in will do the rest (dreaming?).
Having said that, I think that even computers will disappear from common
use,
roll out fridges and ovens talking to each other, and running dictating
Microlin Word - how else are we going to do our groceries?
I think I've raved for long enough. I just want to say that this is a
marvellous community, sometimes I've had a lot of smiles reading the
posts. I
have learnt a lot from the posts. It has not been my intention to upset
anyone, and apologise if I have. Keep up the great work - even if you
don't
here from me very much, I'm always reading.
Chris
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<FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Hi<BR>
<BR>
I have been following the Euphoria mailing list for nearly a year now, and
am one of the 'outsiders' previously described in one of the threads - I
haven't (yet) bought the full licensed version of Euphoria.<BR>
<BR>
A little background first. I am a full time veterinary surgeon, and a part
time coder. My main programming interest at the moment is the practice
management system which I have written (in C, on linux), which seems to have
an endless of features which need to be added / I would like added / users
want added, I have a lovely understanding wife who can tolerate my
spending endless evenings writing / modifying / tweaking the code, and three
children who deserve as much of my time as I can give. I also do out of
hours and weekends on call. (no, I don't want sympathy, this is just the way
it is).<BR>
<BR>
Consequently my delving into Euphoria has been little more than dabbling.
(I have experimented with EDS on my work Linux machine for a lost and found
database, but I am finding it hard going trying to learn essentially another
syntax, when I am so familiar with C - enough of that)<BR>
<BR>
Ok, the reason I'm writing this is because I want to add an 'outsiders'
view of Euphoria.<BR>
<BR>
Make no mistake, I think Euphoria is a great language, when I first read
about sequences, and no pointers, I thought 'at last', and then seeing how
well it worked in windows (on my 2.0ghz xp machine, I can see no difference
between the speed of execution of a delphi program, and a similar Euphoria
program, I'm not talking about benchmarking, my brain doesn't need to do
that), I thought this is the language I have been looking for.<BR>
<BR>
I subscribe to the Euphoria mailing and read it every day, I have even
chipped in a couple of times with one or two non specific queries. On thread
was that no - one responded to the issues raised on the list. Personally I
find that the hardcore cadre of Euphorians reply so quickly to the issues
raised that they have already said what I was going to say any way (and I'm
not implying that they should write less, just again, that is the way it is,
which is great because it shows a great enthusiasm for the language). Also
any questions I have posed have almost been responded to in the next post,
and yet I have received 2 or 3 more tranches of emails of Topica posts, so
any response is almost out of date (I do try to say thanks though!)<BR>
<BR>
The thing about Euphoria, as I see it, is it is a programmers language,
for people who are interested in programming, and as such its appeal will
IMHO always remain limited. Here's a simple question - what can you do with
it? Demonstrate reordering of 10 squillion sequences in 0.5 microseconds?
(of course). Write a text / program editor (yes - suggestion, get it out in
the wild). My point is that non programmers (or occasional hobby
programmers) do not really care about this. They want to be able to plonk a
box here, a text entry there, a button over there, and presto a full
featured telephone database.<BR>
<BR>
Or, a tank here, a spaceship there, a few mines, a few running soldiers
over the hill, and have there own wargame, to dump on the internet, and have
there friends play, and ooh and awe at.<BR>
<BR>
Euphoria has the capability to do either of these. Its just that the
learning curve is a little too steep for it to really take off - yet. (My
intention is not to insult people here by the way, merely to point things
out as the way I see them).<BR>
<BR>
I came across Exotica the other day. Good grief - that has some potential,
and frankly its been squandered - you want a killer app - there it is,
it needs a few wrappers, some brain modules (aka 3drad), ability to import
models, combined with the ease of Euphoria's variable system, trumpets blown
for miles around on the website, and people will flock (probably!).<BR>
<BR>
I see that Chris Bensler has just unsubscribed from the mailing lis. Hmm.
I appreciate you Chris.<BR>
<BR>
As far as the website goes - its designed for programmers, and obviously
does its job well in that respect. Personally, one thing that infuriates me
is graphic intensity, but since that may not the 'masses' cup of tea, then a
sparklier graphicyier (?) frontpage with links to Euphoria's stars, and a
less graphic intensive archive would be a compromise.<BR>
<BR>
Suggestions as to what Rob should do with his program - its his baby, and
he can do with it what he likes, criticism as far as its stagnation goes is
unproductive. I agree that the size issue is no longer relevant with current
technology, but Euphoria seems to be hugely expandable with its include
library system, so what difference does it make how small or big the
original interpreter is? To quote an old adage, its not size that matters,
but what you do with it that counts!<BR>
<BR>
The library base is huge (well I think it is anyway) - one thing is though
that I have to download a lot of the libraries - perhaps a lot of these
should be included with the package. And I agree - get a better install
program too (Bach's is great).<BR>
<BR>
AI - the thread seems to have stalled a little, partially I think because
theres a huge hill to climb there. It is said that camel's were designed by
commitee - hows the worm coming? (for what its worth, as far as I can see,
no one has yet defined a definition of intelligence for what you're trying
to achieve, ie no one has defined the intelligent worm (an oxymoron?) yet -
good luck on that definition!). Ah - if only I had the time for such a
hugely ambitious project. <BR>
<BR>
Cross platform - of course there are going to be discrepancies between the
way the program works on Windows and Linux (I am neither pro nor con either
operating system, they both have points in there favour, and points against,
I use both, to me they are simply tools, and I use the best tool for the job
in hand). It is one of the things that drew me to Euphoria. It works in
Linux, there is a distance to go as far as libraries go, Linux users tend to
be geeks (meant in the nicest possible way of course), and will probably
mess around until they get things to work. Irv's GTK library is marvellous,
and I hope to post some things to the Euphoria site (when I get around to it
that is!)<BR>
<BR>
One day anyway, the operating system will be irrelavent - users won't care
whats on it, as long as they can use it, one will simply get a program, pop
it into any computer, and whatever os is in will do the rest (dreaming?).
Having said that, I think that even computers will disappear from common
use, roll out fridges and ovens talking to each other, and running dictating
Microlin Word - how else are we going to do our groceries?<BR>
<BR>
I think I've raved for long enough. I just want to say that this is a
marvellous community, sometimes I've had a lot of smiles reading the posts.
I have learnt a lot from the posts. It has not been my intention to upset
anyone, and apologise if I have. Keep up the great work - even if you don't
here from me very much, I'm always reading.<BR>
<BR>
Chris</FONT>
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