Re: ARM and Position Independent Code
- Posted by useless_ Mar 06, 2013
- 2275 views
I have also suggested Eu be ported to the smaller processor base (ARM, AVR, Propellor, etc), i just don't see my words as saying "only if *nix is also running on the platform", or "only if it's a 32bit cpu", or "only if it is in the most expensive devices". I am happy to see Eu expanding, and improving, but unlike some posts in this thread, i am not vehemently pushing my favorite *nix-only device above all others. Seriously, i get slammed for even mentioning another cpu??
There's always someone around who will have a beef with something that anyone says. Especially if you lead with attacks on something else. I don't think anyone is against additional ports, but that's a lot harder if the target doesn't include an OS that we already support or that is at least very similar to one that we do.
It wasn't an attack on the Pi to say the ARM was a vastly improved 6502. [edit]Neither is it a slam to say the Broadcom video chip with the ARM in it is a 700Mhz C64, as it incorporates almost all the features of the C64 in the one chip. If i wanted to slam the Pi, i could make a list.[/edit]
I was thinking more along the lines of, "I think it's a joke...wasting millions of hours ..."
Matt
Ah. Ok. Let me clarify, maybe. . .
I was going back to the development of the Pi, when it was two chips, an ARM (any ARM, pick an ARM, maybe a new one?) and a video chip. Back then one had full access to the ARM and to the video processing, this isn't so with the current Pi (have you read the data sheet on that chip?). It was possible to add more external memory, after a fashion, now it isn't. To me, it's like looking at the existing Pi (vs the original Pi) and the C64 (vs the VIC20) and asking myself why they shot themselves in the foot while doing the upgrade. Anyhow, all that work was thrown out. Pi v2 was initially programmed with Fedora, then Debian was backtracked from ARM7 to ARM6 to make Raspbian, and other *nixes were also modified to various results. There's likely an army of people working alone or small groups to make the Pi useable on the version of *nix they prefer, that won't be able to run this, that, or the other thing from one Pi to the next. AFAIK, only Raspbian uses the Broadcom chip's floating point math hardware.
While designing software to a specific piece of hardware is easier (in my experience) than designing software for multiple OSs on various hardware (like Euphoria is), there was still 1000's of man-hours put into just backtracking Debian to be Raspbian, and that alone is more than all the effort put into the ARM1, near as i can tell, and that is not including the work to bring about Debian or Fedora in the first place! It's just an astonishing amount of work, when compared to the same goal of making an entry level computer 30 years ago.
It's highly unlikely Broadcom will put a ARM8 or 9 into the same package the Pi uses now, and they are so closely coupled to suit Broadcom's needs that even if Pi gets a free license to make a new chip with new ARM in it, Pi will haveto shoulder the costs ($millions) of layout, debugging, and foundry. I can't see that happening. Therefore any improvements in whatever *nix is used, those will need to be backtracked, even degraded, spending time undoing upgrades in future releases, ironically to keep the OS in the Pi up to date.
Considering how Pi was developed from the start, i'd think the original 2-chip Pi was a better hardware design, and more future-proofed, and easier to code for, than the existing 1-chip design is. The VIC-20 to C64 trip was also about chip integration and cost, even while adding a few bells and whistles, and it also caused issues. After a couple more ARM versions, or a couple more OS versions, it's real likely the Pi will be an orphan. At least with the 2-chip Pi, and the C64, you could plug in different cpus. Much like there were clones muddying the waters in the early 1980's, there's Pi clones now too, it's deja vu all over again. And i am saddened to see it happening, it is like a cruel joke.
If new reports are to be believed, it is very much easier now, a year after the Pi was introduced, to boot and run the Pi using Raspbian (not necessarily so with other OSs), but there's still no OS or apps included, you need another computer and ram chip to start up the Pi.
useless
