1. fixed windows
- Posted by gertie at visionsix.com Aug 05, 2003
- 391 views
So the mirc nicklist and channel window are just fixed (but changeable and detachable) child windows in the parent ! That explains how it is possible to move each channel out of the mirc application screen and out onto the desktop. Just think where Eu would be now if RobC had merged Eu and mirc functionality way back when i first suggested it. Eu would look like Bach/Bliss/OpenEu/mIRC now. And beat the pants off everything out there. Kat
2. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by Travis Beaty <tbeaty at osage.net> Aug 05, 2003
- 388 views
> Hey Kat, > > <big snip> > > > 2) goto > > Please no ! In my pov only hobby programmers need goto. That is > why many pro languages don't have it. There is nothing I can do > with goto that I can't already do without (but yes, you need to > do some "engineering" before starting to program). Uh-oh. Travis Beaty Osage, Iowa.
3. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Aug 05, 2003
- 366 views
[ huge snip] >=20 > > Yes, stop thinking of the program and it's flow, and engineer a=20 > > workaround=20 > > that the programming language will allow. >=20 > I'll repeat my point here: goto is not needed in a language Except Assembler, of course And in the same spirit, a construct such as " x +=3D 1" is not needed as = well; it just useful sometimes.=20 My POV is goto is only *needed* to extract the best execution speed out = of an application; and this is a very rare thing and must be heavily = justified. All other uses of goto are just doomed to cause expensive = maintenance times. On the other hand, I have no right to dictate how people should code = their apps. If they want to make "spaghetti" code, that's their problem. = But, I'd kick them off my programming teams . -- Derek
4. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de> Aug 05, 2003
- 397 views
Kat wrote: <snip> >>> Golly, really? Are you the only one who matters then? If Robc includes >>> goto, you think throngs of mad programmers will descent on you next >>> fullmoon and force you to re-write all your code with goto? Obviously you enjoy it, telling us three times a week, that you really like 'goto'. Well, why not, if it makes you fell better. But even if you would tell us t.i.d., fortunately Rob will *not* include it. >> Come on Kat, you behave like a little kid that doesn't get >> her way of doing things. > > And the way some people argue against an OPTION like goto in Eu is > bordering on pathological. Oh, "Dr Kat" speaking ... Please stop that nonsense. TIA, Juergen -- The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.
5. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 06, 2003
- 363 views
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 02:06:16PM -0500, gertie at visionsix.com wrote: <snip> > In a word(s): > > mirc: First, mirc will not run in Linux, FreeBSD, or DOS. So such a merger between Eu and mIRC would make Eu Windows-only. So a comparision between the 2 is not really far in terms of portability. Also such a merger would be difficult when using the translator. (If you say that you don't need these features of Eu, then I have no choice but to call you a hypocrite, since you believe you should have the below features even if others don't need them. I'm sure there is a compromise to be found in there somewhere ;) > 1) executing strings Not builtin. DC and Matt Lewis have given us the option as an addon lib tho. Cost: speed. > 2) goto Well, Dredge has that ... Beyond that, I say no more ;[ > 3) threads (including threaded timers) Have it (for linux). Cost: speed and memory (and quite a bit of complexity). Also, with my *emulation*, its not as fault-tolerant as real threads would be. > 4) event handling Have lots of libs for that. Cost: speed, also no major lib so potentionally much confusion. > 5) native socks support (you can http/telnet/pop3 with mirc too) Why does it have to be native? Very few languages have it "native". Cost: none that I can think of atm. > 6) easy as heck gui support At a high overhead. But it may be well worth the cost, depending on your POV. Cost: personally, i think the mirc way costs more. > 7) no var instanciation required > 8) no crash if a var has no contents in a boolean test Dredge has these 2. I think that Eu would do well to have these 2 options in it as well. Cost: using Dredge gives a huge overhead, both in the compile stage and in the run-time (due to the hacks required). > > Bach: > 9) classes Have lots of libs for that. Would be nice if there was a simpler standard syntax for Euphorian OO tho (as there will be for OE). Cost: builtin would make the interp slower, external lib would make OO slower + lack of syntax (or use of preproc to get that) makes it clumsy to use. If syntax were builtin, then I'd say the cost would be greater for OO to be totally builtin into the interpreter (see OE notes on its proposed OO support for a better explaination on what I mean). > 10) crash catching I have an errhandle.e that makes a meek attempt to provide this, but it has a HUGE overhead ... this is a must. Cost: using errhandle.e is too slow, and not using it means programs can't have crash catching periond so they arent as robust. > 11) gui support Bach's GUI IMO isn't the best. Also, must GUI support be builtin? Cost: I don't know enough to say. > 12) block comments A niceity but not a necessity. Cost: more typing > 13) slicing shorthands Ditto. Cost: more typing > 14) better include paths Yes, again a must. Cost: possibly more typing, possibly much confusion for the programmer (on how to get the right file to always be included). <snip> > > Kat > jbrown > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
6. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 06, 2003
- 378 views
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 09:44:53PM +0000, Peter Willems wrote: > > So how did he manage to release the last update then ? The later Eu updates add very little features. Once Euphorian once said that they amount to bugfixes. > > > Mirc is hardly restricted to "a very (VERY) specific application area*. > > Just > > because it has one screen format for irc does not mean it cannot just as > > > > easily handle other tasks. What you are saying is like saying feet are > > for > > walking with, and if you have no feet, you cannot move at all. Or feet > > should > > not be used to play soccer with. Or hair should be worn the way you say, > > > > and worn any other way is confusing. > > I really don't see my company developing enterprise solutions > with mIRC for our clients, but I can use Euphoria, Python, > Erlang, Modula, Pascal, Oberon, etc. fine for that. > These are all multi-purpose languages, mIRC is most certainly not. Perhaps it could be. I won't know, being a linux user. But yes mirc certainly wasn't designed with that intent. > > Hans Peter Willems > jbrown > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
7. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 06, 2003
- 376 views
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:34:57PM -0400, jbrown105 at speedymail.org wrote: > Once Euphorian once said Erm, Its "As one Euphorian once said". jbrown P.S. No that Euphorian wasn't me. Not originally, anyways. -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
8. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 06, 2003
- 374 views
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 08:03:39PM -0700, kbochert at copper.net wrote: > > 3) threads (including threaded timers) > Bach 2 does have coroutines which allow cooperative > multitasking. Not quite the same thing, but its a start. > > Another feature which I have lately realized is quite > doable is child processes: > child_exec("foo.exe -w") > would operate just like system_exec(), except that > the child process would have its stdio redirected > to the parent. > Is this old hat? > Is there a Eu library that does this? For Linux there is. I don't know about Windoze. -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
9. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 06, 2003
- 372 views
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 07:51:43PM +0000, Peter Willems wrote: Hey Kat, gertie at visionsix.com wrote: <big snip> > 1) executing strings You might need it, I don't. Already have it. > 2) goto Please no ! In my pov only hobby programmers need goto. That is why many pro languages don't have it. There is nothing I can do with goto that I can't already do without (but yes, you need to do some "engineering" before starting to program). No comment. > 3) threads (including threaded timers) Agreed. Multi threading can help with several applications. Nevertheless, the current tool we use in my company also don't have multi-threading and still use it to develop for multi nationals and to their satisfaction. Don't have the real thing, have a pretty good emulation for Linux which is portable to FreeBSD. Also portable to Windows via Cygwin (the cygwin dll that is). > 4) event handling There is a full event-driven library in the archive. So we alreayd have it. > 5) native socks support (you can http/telnet/pop3 with mirc too) I have no problem in it not being native. It's a library in most other languages as well. Concurred. > 6) easy as heck gui support Now here is where your comparison with mIRC goes completely wrong. mIRC is a application with a userface that can be driven with it's scripting language. That is com[pletely different from a language that is USED to build that user interface (I already stated that mIRC, including it's user interface, is not written in it's own scripting language). Let's be honest, there is no GUI developer in mIRC that generates code that can then be executed without running mIRC's own FULL user interface. No comment. > 7) no var instanciation required No comment on that. > 8) no crash if a var has no contents in a boolean test Ditto.. > Bach: > 9) classes I'm glad Euphoria is NOT object oriented in it's own design. It should be nicer for OO programs, but it also shouldnt impose an overhead for non-OO programs. Hmm, this is tricky ... OE has a solution tho. > 10) crash catching Agreed. But that is not specific for mIRC OR Bach. Bach and mIRC both have it tho. Eu doesn't. > 11) gui support Don't know what Bach has over Eu in this regard. It is compiled with a GUI, so the GUI's routine's are available as Bach builtin routines (i dont remember, was it called IUP?) > 12) block comments We're discussing that in depth already, so you know my view on that. Seems I'm not alone on this point either. > 13) slicing shorthands No idea what that's about Basicly to make typing easier. Basicly the same idea behind block comments, afai would use them. > 14) better include paths Clarify please ?? Search the mailing list. You'll see tons of stuff about namespaces, include paths, include enchancements, etc. (I'd go into detail for you but I'm tired, maybe if you email me privately I'll get back to you tomorrow.) > These 14 items are things BobC has said will not appear in Eu. The > closest > app i have seen coded in Eu that might enable all the above is AGetz's > window server and Jiri's associated lists. And several string libs are > required > in my opinion, string.e and strtok.e, and the file manipulation libs > like file.e,, > and for any windows gui, you must have win32lib. That is your idea of how Eu should be developed, mine is different. And other users might still have yet another pov. Don't forget you are not the ONLY user. But shes not the only one asking for this stuff either. > If RobC can't handle the full developement of Eu, .... the way YOU think he should do it.... right ? And a great many others. Kat, the bottom line is that I might (but shurely will) use Eu for completely different tasks then you. And other people might use it for yet completely different tasks. That is why Euphoria is a GENERAL PURPOSE language while mIRC is a tool dedicated to a very (VERY) specific application area. Concurred, but what is being said is this: Many of us don't think Eu is general enough! Btw, Kat, have you aver heard of Erlang ? It's a language that is developed by Ericson Telecom that seems to have everything you desire in a language AND it is open source and completely free. The proxy stuff you where asking for a while ago is easy in Erlang as it has all that stuff build into the language. You can get it at http://www.erlang.org It's one of my choices for distributed tcp-based applications and I'm going to make sure that my new IDE can handle Erlang as well No comment. Hans Peter Willems TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! jbrown -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html -- Regards, Rob Craig Rapid Deployment Software http://www.RapidEuphoria.com
10. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by jbrown105 at speedymail.org Aug 06, 2003
- 374 views
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 04:02:17PM -0500, gertie at visionsix.com wrote: On 5 Aug 2003, at 19:51, Peter Willems wrote: > > > Hey Kat, > > gertie at visionsix.com wrote: > > <big snip> > > > 1) executing strings > > You might need it, I don't. And you are saying since you don't need the option, i should be forced to do without? If he is saying that, I would say he is wrong. > > 2) goto > > Please no ! In my pov only hobby programmers need goto. That is > why many pro languages don't have it. There is nothing I can do > with goto that I can't already do without (but yes, you need to > do some "engineering" before starting to program). Yes, stop thinking of the program and it's flow, and engineer a workaround that the programming language will allow. > > 3) threads (including threaded timers) > > Agreed. Multi threading can help with several applications. > Nevertheless, the current tool we use in my company also don't > have multi-threading and still use it to develop for multi > nationals and to their satisfaction. So again, you don't need it, so i can't have it. Again, i would disagree with him then. (Just because he doesnt need it doesnt mean it shouldnt be in there). > > 4) event handling > > There is a full event-driven library in the archive. Not quite what i wanted, i don't see it doing: on error:*sequence lengths not equal*: { code here } Thats not event handling, thats error catching. > > 5) native socks support (you can http/telnet/pop3 with mirc too) > > I have no problem in it not being native. It's a library in most > other languages as well. Sure, Eu has such libs also, and every one has drawbacks. You can do x in one, but not in the other, whch can do y. Sounds like Eu just has more options. > > 6) easy as heck gui support > > Now here is where your comparison with mIRC goes completely wrong. > mIRC is a application with a userface that can be driven with it's > scripting language. That is com[pletely different from a language > that is USED to build that user interface (I already stated that > mIRC, including it's user interface, is not written in it's own > scripting language). And you think Eu is written in Euphoria? JTLYK, It can be: see eu.ex Anyways, his point is explained futher below. > Let's be honest, there is no GUI developer in mIRC that generates > code that can then be executed without running mIRC's own FULL > user interface. Wrong. You can generate child windows that have their own button in the taskbar, move independantly of the main mirc window, etc.. Besides, i WANT the full language available to me to run the code i write. The display, in any font i can download, in any point size, in any color, at any point, with full mouse support, is a plus. But you still need the whole of mirc loaded to do that. You can't get rid of the main mirc window. I think thats the point being made. > > 7) no var instanciation required > > No comment on that. > > > 8) no crash if a var has no contents in a boolean test > > Ditto.. By your previous tone, i suspect that means you are against them. So far, you are against everything i suggest but threads. How unexpected. > > Bach: > > 9) classes > > I'm glad Euphoria is NOT object oriented in it's own design. I don't actually like the way classes are in Bach, but it seems others do. I want *full* variant records, with overriding. > > 10) crash catching > > Agreed. But that is not specific for mIRC OR Bach. It's possible to recover in mirc, to a point. For instance, i can type: /msg cs addop nick 3 which is an error, and which i can script to correct before it finally errors out. Hey, I can write code to catch almost all runtime errors in Eu as well! Just wrap every single builtin routine and do tons of checking and only call the real builtin if everything looks ok, else abort out. (Note that errhandle.e actually does this. It also provides routines to replace the builtin operators and a function to wrap the tests in an if or elsif or while statement to prevent crashing there.) (It would be better for the support to be builtin no doubt, due to overhead, but I'm just saying ... ;) > > 11) gui support > > Don't know what Bach has over Eu in this regard. Size. Open source, for nix and winders. I wonder if IUP could be wrapped for normal Eu *shrug*. > > 12) block comments > > We're discussing that in depth already, so you know my view on > that. Seems I'm not alone on this point either. > > > 13) slicing shorthands > > No idea what that's about I'm sure you won't like it, and will vote to keep it from me in Eu. > > 14) better include paths > > Clarify please ?? Bach introduced looking in the application's own /include subdir, not just the interpreter's /include subdir. And other places. > > These 14 items are things BobC has said will not appear in Eu. The > > closest > > app i have seen coded in Eu that might enable all the above is AGetz's > > window server and Jiri's associated lists. And several string libs are > > required > > in my opinion, string.e and strtok.e, and the file manipulation libs > > like file.e,, > > and for any windows gui, you must have win32lib. > > That is your idea of how Eu should be developed, mine is different. > And other users might still have yet another pov. Don't forget > you are not the ONLY user. Golly, really? Are you the only one who matters then? If Robc includes goto, you think throngs of mad programmers will descent on you next fullmoon and force you to re-write all your code with goto? No, tho he might be forced to deal with unreadable goto's in other's code. The idea of not having goto support, is to replace it with better controlled and restricted "goto"s which prevent the unreadablility. Whether or not this is a good thing depends on the skill of the programmer, the level of difficulty of the language overall (i.e. if its asm code then a goto or jmp isnt gonna make it that much more unreadable), and personal opinion. > > If RobC can't handle the full developement of Eu, > > .... the way YOU think he should do it.... right ? It's already apparent he is out of time, whether i say anything or not. I think you are a great example of the pot calling the kettle black. LOL! > Kat, the bottom line is that I might (but shurely will) use Eu > for completely different tasks then you. And other people might > use it for yet completely different tasks. That is why Euphoria > is a GENERAL PURPOSE language while mIRC is a tool dedicated to > a very (VERY) specific application area. Mirc is hardly restricted to "a very (VERY) specific application area*. Just because it has one screen format for irc does not mean it cannot just as easily handle other tasks. What you are saying is like saying feet are for walking with, and if you have no feet, you cannot move at all. Or feet should not be used to play soccer with. Or hair should be worn the way you say, and worn any other way is confusing. Or perhaps hes just not as creative in using mirc as you are. IIRC, you said you have done things w/ mirc that the creator didn't think was possible. Kat jbrown TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | http://verify.stanford.edu/evote.html
11. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> Aug 06, 2003
- 376 views
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Lewis" <matthewwalkerlewis at yahoo.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: RE: fixed windows > > > kbochert at copper.net wrote: > > > I have always felt that a big part of Eu's popularity was its > > low-level ability -- run on dos, write console apps, poke memory, > > etc. Maybe not. > > I like the feeling that I can usually focus on an algorithm without > having to fight the language (at least more so than with other languages > I have tried). It largely has to do with the flexibility of the > datatypes, but also the clean, clear syntax. Wirth also developed Pascal because he felt that structured data was just as important as structure programming. He'd hate Euphoria's dynamically typed data structures. But I agree with you in that the fluid nature of Euphoria's datatypes makes so many coding problems just disappear. It would be nice if we could have both dynamically typed and statically typed data in the same language. There is a place for both. -- Derek
12. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de> Aug 06, 2003
- 387 views
Hi Matt, you wrote: > kbochert at copper.net wrote: > >> I have always felt that a big part of Eu's popularity was its >> low-level ability -- run on dos, write console apps, poke memory, >> etc. Maybe not. > > I like the feeling that I can usually focus on an algorithm without > having to fight the language (at least more so than with other languages > I have tried). It largely has to do with the flexibility of the > datatypes, but also the clean, clear syntax. <snip> That's exactly the same with me! And apparently that's why Prof. Kuntz uses Euphoria in his courses at the Mathematics Department of the Monmouth University (New Jersey): http://mathserv.monmouth.edu/coursenotes/kuntz/kuntz.htm BTW: What topic is exactly discussed under the subject "fixed windows"? Best regards, Juergen -- /"\ ASCII ribbon campain | \ / against HTML in | This message has been ROT-13 encrypted X e-mail and news, | twice for higher security. / \ and unneeded MIME |
13. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de> Aug 06, 2003
- 360 views
Hi Derek, you wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matt Lewis" > >> kbochert at copper.net wrote: >> >>> I have always felt that a big part of Eu's popularity was its >>> low-level ability -- run on dos, write console apps, poke memory, >>> etc. Maybe not. >> >> I like the feeling that I can usually focus on an algorithm without >> having to fight the language (at least more so than with other languages >> I have tried). It largely has to do with the flexibility of the >> datatypes, but also the clean, clear syntax. > > Wirth also developed Pascal because he felt that structured data was > just as important as structure programming. He'd hate Euphoria's > dynamically typed data structures. But I agree with you in that the > fluid nature of Euphoria's datatypes makes so many coding problems just > disappear. Interesting, that you say so! That's exactly the experience, that I made. Formerly using Basic, I was often faced with problems, that I didn't know how to solve. Now using Euphoria, several problems simply do not appear at all. It's kind of magic for me. > It would be nice if we could have both dynamically typed and > statically typed data in the same language. There is a place for both. I believe structures for instance are statically typed data, right? IMHO such data types are especially important, when it comes to communication with the rest of the programming world (read: programs written in C). Best regards, Juergen -- /"\ ASCII ribbon campain | \ / against HTML in | This message has been ROT-13 encrypted X e-mail and news, | twice for higher security. / \ and unneeded MIME |
14. Re: fixed windows
- Posted by 1evan at sbcglobal.net Aug 06, 2003
- 391 views
Peter Willems wrote: > > >kbochert at copper.net wrote: > > >>I think that Dijkstra has scared programmers enough that >>they use goto verrry carefully. >> >> > I'm curious how many people here on the list ever heard of him > >Hans Peter Willems > Oh, yeah. Bobby Dijkstra. Big bully. Used to beat up computer geeks and take their lunch money. :)