1. Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
- Posted by Andrew Katz <Akatz712 at gmail.com>
Mar 17, 2007
-
Last edited Mar 18, 2007
Lets say I have layers A,B,C and I want control X to be on layers A & B and
not on layer C.
No big deal if it does not have it in the IDE, since from what I can see,
layers are just sequences of controls, which I can do myself.
The biggest headache so far with layers is that when I add controls, it
will SOMETIMES assign them to groups in the other layers! This is something
you should fix!
Andy Katz
2. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
- Posted by Judith Evans <camping at ccewb.net>
Mar 17, 2007
-
Last edited Mar 18, 2007
Andrew Katz wrote:
>
> Lets say I have layers A,B,C and I want control X to be on layers A & B and
> not on layer C.
>
> No big deal if it does not have it in the IDE, since from what I can see,
> layers are just sequences of controls, which I can do myself.
>
> The biggest headache so far with layers is that when I add controls, it
> will SOMETIMES assign them to groups in the other layers! This is something
> you should fix!
>
> Andy Katz
\Andy, let me explain IDE's use of Layering. Layering allows you to indicate
controls that might swap visibility or enability with other controls in another
layer. An example would be a group control that might contain different radio
controls under program direction. To do this you would place the group in layer
0, one set of group child controls in layer 1 and the other in layer 2. Both sets
of child controls are parented by the group control. Control parenting crosses
layers for this reason but might assign parenting when you don't intend for it to
happen; you may change the parent of any control on any layer using the
Properties call 'Parent'. Select one of the dropdowns. What case do you have that
a control should be in more than one layer?
Dan Moyer requested control layering and perhaps he will chime in with more
information from the user's standpoint. Dan?
judith evans
3. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Judith Evans wrote:
>
> Andrew Katz wrote:
> >
> > Lets say I have layers A,B,C and I want control X to be on layers A & B and
> > not on layer C.
> >
> > No big deal if it does not have it in the IDE, since from what I can see,
> > layers are just sequences of controls, which I can do myself.
> >
> > The biggest headache so far with layers is that when I add controls, it
> > will SOMETIMES assign them to groups in the other layers! This is something
> > you should fix!
> >
> > Andy Katz
>
> \Andy, let me explain IDE's use of Layering. Layering allows you to indicate
> controls that might swap visibility or enability with other controls in
> another
> layer. An example would be a group control that might contain different radio
> controls under program direction. To do this you would place the group in
> layer
> 0, one set of group child controls in layer 1 and the other in layer 2. Both
> sets of child controls are parented by the group control. Control parenting
> crosses layers for this reason but might assign parenting when you don't
> intend
> for it to happen; you may change the parent of any control on any layer using
> the Properties call 'Parent'. Select one of the dropdowns. What case do you
> have that a control should be in more than one layer?
>
> Dan Moyer requested control layering and perhaps he will chime in with more
> information from the user's standpoint. Dan?
>
> judith evans
I apologize for my confusion about layers. I actually should have been using
tabs correctly. When I switch from one tab to another, it shows the controls
which are on that tab. This is what I though layers was going to do for me.
I know that tabs is a windows thing and layers is just in the IDE.
I am still not sure if I can make my tabs of different sizes, so that some
controls can be on 2 of my tabs and not the third. I will let you know
when I get to this issue.
However, I still have a huge problem with the IDE. The parent of a control
in the IDE acts in a very quirky way. I cannot assign the parent I want
until I move the controls just right. Many times I have had to start over
and move the controls back into groups one at a time. I would suggest that
the IDE does not try to guess what parent each control should have, but the
parent drop down should include all of the controls.
Andy Katz
4. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Andy Katz wrote:
<snip>
I am still not sure if I can make my tabs of different sizes, so that some
controls can be on 2 of my tabs and not the third. I will let you know
when I get to this issue.
However, I still have a huge problem with the IDE. The parent of a control
in the IDE acts in a very quirky way. I cannot assign the parent I want
until I move the controls just right. Many times I have had to start over
and move the controls back into groups one at a time. I would suggest that
the IDE does not try to guess what parent each control should have, but the
parent drop down should include all of the controls.
Andy Katz
I am not likely to make the parenting change you suggest. I want to control the
parenting. If I included all controls people could pick a control to be parent
that isn't anywhere near the moved control. There are several ways you can move
controls. By mouse, by keyboard arrow keys and by right click in the control you
want to move in Design and selecting "Move" followed by right clicking in the
place you want the control's upper left hand corner moved to and and selecting
"paste." Parenting will be reassigned after paste.
I don't think the parenting is assigned in a quirky way but anyone is entitled
to believe so
If a control is moved into another control it becomes child to
that control. IDE used not to work like that in all cases; only if the moving
control ended up in TabItem, ToolBars, ReBarBand, Group, CWindow, StatusBar,
Table, EuGrid, and any other container controls, was that control made the parent
of the moved control. But as more and more people wanted to parent to other
controls that are not container controls I changed the rule to the present one.
To help people that wanted controls to overlap but not obtain parenting I opened
up the Parent dropdown in Properties. I'm sorry this is a problem for you. I
possibly could add a new item in Configurations that you would check for
parenting to be restricted to Window1 and/or a container control. If the control
were moved over a control that is not a container control then the parent would
be Window1. Mull this suggestion over and let me know if it would help you. This
will not be a trivial enhancement but is doable.
judith evans
5. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
The only thing I would like is that controls placed on a tab cannot be captured
by controls in another tab. This needs to be done in grand parenting. For
example
if control A's parent is Group 100 and Group 100's parent is tab2. Control A
should not be be captured by control x whose parent is Group 200 and
group 200's parent is tab1. Or by group 200. The way I design tabs has controls
overlapping. And the more tabs the more confusion the way the IDE is now.
Andy Katz
6. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Andrew Katz wrote:
>
>
> The only thing I would like is that controls placed on a tab cannot be
> captured
> by controls in another tab. This needs to be done in grand parenting. For
> example
> if control A's parent is Group 100 and Group 100's parent is tab2. Control A
> should not be be captured by control x whose parent is Group 200 and
> group 200's parent is tab1. Or by group 200. The way I design tabs has
> controls
> overlapping. And the more tabs the more confusion the way the IDE is now.
>
> Andy Katz
Andy,
I'm not sure I understand the problem you're having. I use layering a lot,
but not with a lot of tabs, other than once in "RunDemos" for Win32Lib, but
that doesn't have a lot of controls IN the tabs.
When I do have difficulty getting a control to be exactly where I want it,
for instance, if there may be another control in a location SOME times,
but I want ANOTHER control to be in that location another time,
I just put the second control wherever I can, & then tell it to be moved
to the actual intended location when the window opens and made invisible;
then when it should be useable, I make the original control invisible &
the second one visible.
That's really all layers is doing anyway, doing a "gross" vis/invis thing,
so any additional vis/invis is just a tweak.
Will something like that help?
Dan Moyer
7. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Judith Evans wrote:
>
> Andrew Katz wrote:
> >
> > Lets say I have layers A,B,C and I want control X to be on layers A & B and
> > not on layer C.
> >
> > No big deal if it does not have it in the IDE, since from what I can see,
> > layers are just sequences of controls, which I can do myself.
> >
> > The biggest headache so far with layers is that when I add controls, it
> > will SOMETIMES assign them to groups in the other layers! This is something
> > you should fix!
> >
> > Andy Katz
>
> \Andy, let me explain IDE's use of Layering. Layering allows you to indicate
> controls that might swap visibility or enability with other controls in
> another
> layer. An example would be a group control that might contain different radio
> controls under program direction. To do this you would place the group in
> layer
> 0, one set of group child controls in layer 1 and the other in layer 2. Both
> sets of child controls are parented by the group control. Control parenting
> crosses layers for this reason but might assign parenting when you don't
> intend
> for it to happen; you may change the parent of any control on any layer using
> the Properties call 'Parent'. Select one of the dropdowns. What case do you
> have that a control should be in more than one layer?
>
> Dan Moyer requested control layering and perhaps he will chime in with more
> information from the user's standpoint. Dan?
>
> judith evans
Judith,
Ok, did so on Andy's next post in thread.
Andy, I just thought of another possible work-around for your problem:
make the tabs bigger than you really want, just for getting your controls
far enough apart to be parented as you wish, then invoke one
"resize/relocate" routine on window open. If you put every control
separated by some specific distance, your relocate routine should be pretty
simple, I think, & it can resize your tab(s) at the same time.
And Judith, I think your IDE is wonderful, glad to
see you're still working on making it even better! :)
Dan
8. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Andrew Katz wrote:
>
> The only thing I would like is that controls placed on a tab cannot be
> captured
> by controls in another tab. This needs to be done in grand parenting. For
> example
> if control A's parent is Group 100 and Group 100's parent is tab2. Control A
> should not be be captured by control x whose parent is Group 200 and
> group 200's parent is tab1. Or by group 200. The way I design tabs has
> controls
> overlapping. And the more tabs the more confusion the way the IDE is now.
>
> Andy Katz
I got lost by your term "captured" so I'm assuming control A is the control you
are moving. When you move a control into TabItems IDE should look at the ACTIVE
tab (the one whose Name appears in the dropdown in ToolBar) for possible parents.
However the parenting routine specifically requires a prospective parent control
be a control in Layer 0 or the same layer the moving control is in or at the same
X and Y as the moving control. I'm not too sure why I made this rule and changing
it might break other people's projects. From what I understand about your project
you may not have your layers set up this way.
Can you send me a small sample of your project (just the TabControl and all the
controls within the TabItems) with Control A outside the tabs so I can see what
is happening when I move control A inside the tabs?
judith evans
9. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
> And Judith, I think your IDE is wonderful, glad to
> see you're still working on making it even better! :)
> Dan
Hi Dan, thanks for your nice words.
I'm getting very limited on programming time.
judith evans
10. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Dan Moyer wrote:
>
> Andrew Katz wrote:
> >
> >
> > The only thing I would like is that controls placed on a tab cannot be
> > captured
> > by controls in another tab. This needs to be done in grand parenting. For
> > example
> > if control A's parent is Group 100 and Group 100's parent is tab2. Control A
> > should not be be captured by control x whose parent is Group 200 and
> > group 200's parent is tab1. Or by group 200. The way I design tabs has
> > controls
> > overlapping. And the more tabs the more confusion the way the IDE is now.
> >
> > Andy Katz
>
> Andy,
>
> I'm not sure I understand the problem you're having. I use layering a lot,
> but not with a lot of tabs, other than once in "RunDemos" for Win32Lib, but
> that doesn't have a lot of controls IN the tabs.
>
> When I do have difficulty getting a control to be exactly where I want it,
> for instance, if there may be another control in a location SOME times,
> but I want ANOTHER control to be in that location another time,
> I just put the second control wherever I can, & then tell it to be moved
> to the actual intended location when the window opens and made invisible;
> then when it should be useable, I make the original control invisible &
> the second one visible.
>
> That's really all layers is doing anyway, doing a "gross" vis/invis thing,
> so any additional vis/invis is just a tweak.
>
> Will something like that help?
>
> Dan Moyer
Dan:
I originally confused layers and tabs. And so the title of this thread in
the forum is misleading, but I keep it the same to keep the thread.
I know that Judith put in the layers for a specific case where a person
wanted to have different radio buttons in the same group show up
depending on some other control. What I am trying to do is classic tabs.
However, I have overlapping groups according to the IDE. I would like the
IDE to think in terms of true layers for the tabs, so I do not even see
a possible parenting to controls in another tab. Of course, this can be
an option in the IDE, so it will work as it works now if people want.
Andy Katz
11. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Dan Moyer wrote:
>
> Judith Evans wrote:
> >
> > Andrew Katz wrote:
> > >
> > > Lets say I have layers A,B,C and I want control X to be on layers A & B
> > > and
> > > not on layer C.
> > >
> > > No big deal if it does not have it in the IDE, since from what I can see,
> > > layers are just sequences of controls, which I can do myself.
> > >
> > > The biggest headache so far with layers is that when I add controls, it
> > > will SOMETIMES assign them to groups in the other layers! This is
> > > something
> > > you should fix!
> > >
> > > Andy Katz
> >
> > \Andy, let me explain IDE's use of Layering. Layering allows you to indicate
> > controls that might swap visibility or enability with other controls in
> > another
> > layer. An example would be a group control that might contain different
> > radio
> > controls under program direction. To do this you would place the group in
> > layer
> > 0, one set of group child controls in layer 1 and the other in layer 2. Both
> > sets of child controls are parented by the group control. Control parenting
> > crosses layers for this reason but might assign parenting when you don't
> > intend
> > for it to happen; you may change the parent of any control on any layer
> > using
> > the Properties call 'Parent'. Select one of the dropdowns. What case do you
> > have that a control should be in more than one layer?
> >
> > Dan Moyer requested control layering and perhaps he will chime in with more
> > information from the user's standpoint. Dan?
> >
> > judith evans
>
> Judith,
>
> Ok, did so on Andy's next post in thread.
>
> Andy, I just thought of another possible work-around for your problem:
> make the tabs bigger than you really want, just for getting your controls
> far enough apart to be parented as you wish, then invoke one
> "resize/relocate" routine on window open. If you put every control
> separated by some specific distance, your relocate routine should be pretty
> simple, I think, & it can resize your tab(s) at the same time.
>
> And Judith, I think your IDE is wonderful, glad to
> see you're still working on making it even better! :)
>
> Dan
Dan:
Let me start by praising Judith (and others before) Windows IDE. This is the
reason why I am using Euphoria for development. Nothing like this exists for
C that I have found, and I do not like C++, and I do not want something like
Basic (which has it). And Euphoria is like an easier C language.
I am well aware that I can use the IDE and then program around it. I am
already working outside of the IDE to do my status line (with Derek's soon
to be finished sb.e). But when it comes to things like tabs and control
placement, I want WYSIWYG in the IDE. Otherwise, there is little point to it.
Andy Katz
12. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Judith Evans wrote:
>
> Andrew Katz wrote:
> >
> > The only thing I would like is that controls placed on a tab cannot be
> > captured
> > by controls in another tab. This needs to be done in grand parenting. For
> > example
> > if control A's parent is Group 100 and Group 100's parent is tab2. Control A
> > should not be be captured by control x whose parent is Group 200 and
> > group 200's parent is tab1. Or by group 200. The way I design tabs has
> > controls
> > overlapping. And the more tabs the more confusion the way the IDE is now.
> >
> > Andy Katz
>
> I got lost by your term "captured" so I'm assuming control A is the control
> you are moving. When you move a control into TabItems IDE should look at the
> ACTIVE tab (the one whose Name appears in the dropdown in ToolBar) for
> possible
> parents.
>
> However the parenting routine specifically requires a prospective parent
> control
> be a control in Layer 0 or the same layer the moving control is in or at the
> same X and Y as the moving control. I'm not too sure why I made this rule and
> changing it might break other people's projects. From what I understand about
> your project you may not have your layers set up this way.
>
> Can you send me a small sample of your project (just the TabControl and all
> the controls within the TabItems) with Control A outside the tabs so I can see
> what is happening when I move control A inside the tabs?
>
> judith evans
Hi Judith:
It looks to me as if you solved my issue. I will go to my project and
place all my controls which are outside of my 'tabs' in layer 0. And then
assign all of my controls on the tab1 to layer1, controls on tab2 to layer2,
and so on. And then see the drop down on parenting.
My problem was that I had tab1's controls on layer0. And then I decided that
layering does not do anything real (except that setLayer thing which I do
not need for my current application). So, I will let you know if this
solves my "problem".
It also makes my subject to this thread look stupid, since a good design
would never have the same controls on more than one layer. Those controls
would go on layer0.
Thanks. And I realize you have less time to program now. So, I do not expect
you to maintain the IDE as much as before. And just like you once took it over
maybe it is time to pass the baton to someone else. Maybe me?
Andy Katz
13. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Andrew Katz wrote:
>
> Dan Moyer wrote:
> >
> > Judith Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > Andrew Katz wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Lets say I have layers A,B,C and I want control X to be on layers A & B
> > > > and
> > > > not on layer C.
> > > >
> > > > No big deal if it does not have it in the IDE, since from what I can
> > > > see,
> > > > layers are just sequences of controls, which I can do myself.
> > > >
> > > > The biggest headache so far with layers is that when I add controls, it
> > > > will SOMETIMES assign them to groups in the other layers! This is
> > > > something
> > > > you should fix!
> > > >
> > > > Andy Katz
> > >
> > > \Andy, let me explain IDE's use of Layering. Layering allows you to
> > > indicate
> > > controls that might swap visibility or enability with other controls in
> > > another
> > > layer. An example would be a group control that might contain different
> > > radio
> > > controls under program direction. To do this you would place the group in
> > > layer
> > > 0, one set of group child controls in layer 1 and the other in layer 2.
> > > Both
> > > sets of child controls are parented by the group control. Control
> > > parenting
> > > crosses layers for this reason but might assign parenting when you don't
> > > intend
> > > for it to happen; you may change the parent of any control on any layer
> > > using
> > > the Properties call 'Parent'. Select one of the dropdowns. What case do
> > > you
> > > have that a control should be in more than one layer?
> > >
> > > Dan Moyer requested control layering and perhaps he will chime in with
> > > more
> > > information from the user's standpoint. Dan?
> > >
> > > judith evans
> >
> > Judith,
> >
> > Ok, did so on Andy's next post in thread.
> >
> > Andy, I just thought of another possible work-around for your problem:
> > make the tabs bigger than you really want, just for getting your controls
> > far enough apart to be parented as you wish, then invoke one
> > "resize/relocate" routine on window open. If you put every control
> > separated by some specific distance, your relocate routine should be pretty
> > simple, I think, & it can resize your tab(s) at the same time.
> >
> > And Judith, I think your IDE is wonderful, glad to
> > see you're still working on making it even better! :)
> >
> > Dan
>
> Dan:
>
> Let me start by praising Judith (and others before) Windows IDE. This is the
> reason why I am using Euphoria for development. Nothing like this exists for
> C that I have found, and I do not like C++, and I do not want something like
> Basic (which has it). And Euphoria is like an easier C language.
>
> I am well aware that I can use the IDE and then program around it. I am
> already working outside of the IDE to do my status line (with Derek's soon
> to be finished sb.e). But when it comes to things like tabs and control
> placement, I want WYSIWYG in the IDE. Otherwise, there is little point to it.
>
> Andy Katz
Andy,
Ok, got it :)
Dan
14. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
> What I am trying to do is classic tabs.
> However, I have overlapping groups according to the IDE. I would like the
> IDE to think in terms of true layers for the tabs, so I do not even see
> a possible parenting to controls in another tab. Of course, this can be
> an option in the IDE, so it will work as it works now if people want.
> Andy Katz
Oh, so we are not talking about a layering problem after all. Good news! Are all
the TabItems on layer 0? are all controls on the tabs also in layer 0? If not
they must all be in the same layer.
If so, then the control you are moving should only get parent from controls in
the currently active TabItem. Before you move the control that isn't getting the
correct parent be sure the TabItem dropdown in the ToolBar is the tab you want
the moving control to go into.
IDE will assign the parent as the inner most control in the current TabItem that
the moving control's upper left corner is in. If the current tabItem is not the
one you want to move into, either left click in the tab title you want or use the
TabItem dropdown to select. Again, as I said before, because some people wanted
to parent in non tradition ways, the assigned parent may not be the one you
actually want but you can always manually change that. All possible parents show
in the dropdown.
If this still doesn't seem correct to you, please either send me a project file
representing the controls in your tabs and indicate which control you are moving
and tell me which control you think should be the parent or a screen shot if that
would be easier.
judith
15. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
Hi Judith:
It looks to me as if you solved my issue. I will go to my project and
place all my controls which are outside of my 'tabs' in layer 0. And then
assign all of my controls on the tab1 to layer1, controls on tab2 to layer2,
and so on. And then see the drop down on parenting.
I think you are making this more difficult than necessary. Most new users of IDE
have problems with TabControl-TabItem.
From ToolKit select TabControl-TabItem which adds your TabControl and first
TabItem. Go ahead and add controls for this tab to the TabItem. Then from ToolKit
select TabItem and add to Design on top of tab1 and then add controls for the new
tab. Or you could add both TabItems and then assign its controls being careful to
change to the proper tab before adding the controls. You don't need to use Layer
1 or Layer 2 at all -- unless you just want to. When you want to see the controls
on tab1 just click the title of tab1 in Design or use the TabItem dropdown in
Toolbar and you will see only the controls parented to that tabitem. Same thing
if you want to see controls in tab2.
judith
16. Re: Does the IDE support having controls on >1 layers
If I am careful to design top down there is not a problem.
First do the tabs, then the groups onto the tabs, then the controls on the
groups.
I think that my problem was a combination of two things.
First, I had a project without tabs and then added tabs to it, and it took me
alot of time to realign the controls and get the parenting correct.
Second, I was using the Project view to select controls. That is what messes
things up. If there is an IDE bug look there. If I go to the IDE and select the
proper tab, and then the group if there is one, and then add or move a control it
is okay most of the time. The safest way is to use the Properties to move and
align and select controls. The Project view is great to edit
the source, since it works better than the Editor for selecting source code. And
the Project view is good as a check to see that the controls are all
being parented correctly.
These are all general comments. The IDE is going to do complicated things which
are difficult to reproduce and describe, when it comes to parenting. And the fact
that my project works, indicates that I have managed to make the IDE work the way
I want it to work. And I am not comparing this IDE with the one for Visual Basic,
since maybe that one has the same issues.
My biggest problem was that when I was moving controls, or selecting them from
the project view to edit and not the other 2 ways, that in Properties the parent
I wanted was not even in the drop down. And that would be very difficult to
reproduce on demand, since these things happen dynamically as one moves controls
around and one forgets how one got to this place. I hope you will get the idea,
and not be offended that I have not provided you with a test case.
Thanks again.
Andy Katz
B.S. Computer Science, 1978
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI)
