1. [OT] another floppy question
- Posted by irvm at ellijay.com
Jun 10, 2003
I dug out a box of about 200 floppy disks today - old stuff I wrote 5-10 years
ago, and tried to look thru them.
Some - maybe 1 out of 3 - could be read, the others, which I'm sure *used* to
have data on them, were unreadable. OK, so maybe data fades away
over the years, no great loss. I'll just re-format these disks and use them
for something else, right ?
Wrong. Barely 1 out of 10 could be formatted using DOS 6.2, Windows 98,
or Linux.
The rest return errors, usually in track 0.
So I'm stuck with a huge pile of unusable disks.
Before you say something is wrong with my disk drive, let me point out that
I have 3 pc's and 5 floppy drives. Results are the same regardless.
I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after a while, but disks?
Irv
2. Re: [OT] another floppy question
Irv wrote:
> I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after a while, but disks?
I've got a shopping bag full of floppies that I've had a similar experience
with. I'll pick one, format it, use it... and get bad sectors on it when I go
to read something from it.
I've pretty much given up on floppies, and now rely on ftp.
-- David Cuny
3. Re: [OT] another floppy question
Hello Irv:
> I dug out a box of about 200 floppy disks today -
> old stuff I wrote 5-10 years ago, and tried to
> look thru them.
>
> Some - maybe 1 out of 3 - could be read, the others,
> which I'm sure *used* to have data on them, were
> unreadable. OK, so maybe data fades away
> over the years, no great loss.
> I'll just re-format these disks and use them
> for something else, right ?
>
> Wrong. Barely 1 out of 10 could be formatted
> using DOS 6.2, Windows 98, or Linux.
> The rest return errors, usually in track 0.
>
> So I'm stuck with a huge pile of unusable disks.
> Before you say something is wrong with my disk
> drive, let me point out that
> I have 3 pc's and 5 floppy drives.
> Results are the same regardless.
>
> I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after
> a while, but disks?
>
> Irv
Strange ...
These days I burned CD-R with my old stuff from floppies.
470 - (1.44/3'')- 3 bad, 43 have 1..2 files with bad sectors.
138 - (1.2/5'') - all good.
80 - (720k/5'')- 3 have 1 file with bad sector.
Maybe, just the hot climate of your land?
Regards,
Igor Kachan
kinz at peterlink.ru
4. Re: [OT] another floppy question
- Posted by irvm at ellijay.com
Jun 10, 2003
On Tuesday 10 June 2003 04:51 pm, Igor wrote:
> > I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after
> > a while, but disks?
> >
> > Irv
>
> Strange ...
>
> These days I burned CD-R with my old stuff from floppies.
>
> 470 - (1.44/3'')- 3 bad, 43 have 1..2 files with bad sectors.
> 138 - (1.2/5'') - all good.
> 80 - (720k/5'')- 3 have 1 file with bad sector.
>
> Maybe, just the hot climate of your land?
Perhaps.
If I had any software worth saving, I would try to write it to CDs.
Does anyone yet have a good idea of how long CDs will remain
readable?
(Am I wrong in thinking that paper tape may be the best archival
method? :)
Irv
5. Re: [OT] another floppy question
Hi Irv, you wrote:
> On Tuesday 10 June 2003 04:51 pm, Igor wrote:
>
>>> I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after
>>> a while, but disks?
>>>
>>> Irv
>>
>> Strange ...
>>
>> These days I burned CD-R with my old stuff from floppies.
>>
>> 470 - (1.44/3'')- 3 bad, 43 have 1..2 files with bad sectors.
>> 138 - (1.2/5'') - all good.
>> 80 - (720k/5'')- 3 have 1 file with bad sector.
>>
>> Maybe, just the hot climate of your land?
>
> Perhaps.
Also moisture is not good, I suppose. And someone told me, that
(cigarrete) smoke also is harmful to floppies. I don't know, if this
is true, but I can imagine that very well.
> If I had any software worth saving, I would try to write it to CDs.
> Does anyone yet have a good idea of how long CDs will remain
> readable?
High-quality CDs and DVDs: 100-200 years (estimated).
[Source (in German): http://www.monitor.co.at/story.cfm/storyid/4704]
> (Am I wrong in thinking that paper tape may be the best archival
> method? :)
AFAIK yes, but it depends. Cheap paper contains acid, which is
especially harmful to the paper. The best paper for very long time data
storage is what we call "Buettenpapier" in German. That is paper, that
consists of cotton.
Best regards,
Juergen
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6. Re: [OT] another floppy question
- Posted by gertie at visionsix.com
Jun 10, 2003
On 10 Jun 2003, at 8:42, David Cuny wrote:
>
>
> Irv wrote:
>
> > I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after a while, but disks?
>
> I've got a shopping bag full of floppies that I've had a similar experience
> with. I'll pick one, format it, use it... and get bad sectors on it when I go
> to
> read something from it.
>
> I've pretty much given up on floppies, and now rely on ftp.
I'm glad i am not the only one with this problem. I use zip disks now if i need
removeable media, i've never had a zip fail.
Kat
7. Re: [OT] another floppy question
----- Original Message -----
From: <gertie at visionsix.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] another floppy question
>
>
> On 10 Jun 2003, at 8:42, David Cuny wrote:
>
> >
> > Irv wrote:
> >
> > > I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after a while, but disks?
> >
> > I've got a shopping bag full of floppies that I've had a similar
experience
> > with. I'll pick one, format it, use it... and get bad sectors on it when
I go to
> > read something from it.
> >
> > I've pretty much given up on floppies, and now rely on ftp.
>
> I'm glad i am not the only one with this problem. I use zip disks now if i
need
> removeable media, i've never had a zip fail.
>
And I only use USB Memory sticks now. 128MB and fits in my shirt pocket.
8. Re: [OT] another floppy question
- Posted by gertie at visionsix.com
Jun 10, 2003
On 10 Jun 2003, at 14:06, irvm at ellijay.com wrote:
>
>
> On Tuesday 10 June 2003 04:51 pm, Igor wrote:
>
> > > I expect stuff in the fridge to go bad after
> > > a while, but disks?
> > >
> > > Irv
> >
> > Strange ...
> >
> > These days I burned CD-R with my old stuff from floppies.
> >
> > 470 - (1.44/3'')- 3 bad, 43 have 1..2 files with bad sectors.
> > 138 - (1.2/5'') - all good.
> > 80 - (720k/5'')- 3 have 1 file with bad sector.
> >
> > Maybe, just the hot climate of your land?
Mold and things. Deteriorating materials, for sure. CBS once shipped crates
of Phillips audio cassettes, without running them thru QC. Why no quality
control? Because in the hour it took to get them from the recorders to the
loaders, the glue holding the ferrite to the mylar rotted. One pass thru the
pinch rollers in a player would break all the ferrite off and you'd have clear
mylar left. I am not joking. If QC played the tapes to check them, they'd be
garbage. For recent high profile cases of people not caring, see: Bush being
elected president, the NASA disasters (including the Gemini and Apollo
fires), the Bophal disaster, the drunk driving the Exxon Valdez, the guy
shooting holes in the Alyeska oil pipeline for fun, the unpleasantness in Sri
Lanka, etc.
> Perhaps.
> If I had any software worth saving, I would try to write it to CDs.
> Does anyone yet have a good idea of how long CDs will remain
> readable?
There is a mold that eats the aluminum in CDs. It gets in along the rim, and
progressively eats it's way into the disk. Obviously, with no aluminum left,
there is no data left. At least the explaination i saw was that the mold eats
the aluminum, which i have a problem with.. i say the mold eats the
adhesives, and the mold byproducts, the oxygen or acids, eats the
aluminum. Rather like the copper mold on card-edge connectors. There's no
cure mentioned. There is a rule to the effect that as soon as the mass of
people switch to a specific data storage media, it will stop being made. How
many companies make mfm controller cards anymore? How many of you
still buy one mil cobalt tape on 10inch reels? Some things always change,
alas not always for the better. I still keep candles and a fire source nearby
for
when (not if) the power goes out.
> (Am I wrong in thinking that paper tape may be the best archival
> method? :)
Well, maybe, if you don't have termites? I calculated once that to archive
win95 on paper tape would take over a year to read back in. Gimme a year to
reboot the computer? I knew a company that still used paper tape in the mid
80's. Whatever you do, get rid of the olde acetate tapes you have!
Kat
9. Re: [OT] another floppy question
- Posted by irvm at ellijay.com
Jun 10, 2003
On Tuesday 10 June 2003 08:02 pm, Kat wrote:
> > I've pretty much given up on floppies, and now rely on ftp.
>
> I'm glad i am not the only one with this problem. I use zip disks now if i
> need removeable media, i've never had a zip fail.
Maybe it is a combination of factors:
Combine heaper disks, higher storage density, and dirt cheap drives,
and you get stuff that just barely works.
Irv - who can remember when 360k 8" drives cost $500.
10. Re: [OT] another floppy question
- Posted by irvm at ellijay.com
Jun 10, 2003
Kat wrote:
> I calculated once that to archive
> win95 on paper tape would take over a year to read back in.=20
Sudden vision of Mr. Gates arriving in Hell, and being surprised to=20
receive his very own brand new computer plus a full-time, Mircosoft=20
support person. Who, like all MS support, can only recommend=20
reloading Windows.
=46rom the paper tape.
Bwahahaha...
Irv
11. Re: [OT] another floppy question
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:41:34 +0200, Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de>
wrote:
>High-quality CDs and DVDs: 100-200 years (estimated).
>[Source (in German): http://www.monitor.co.at/story.cfm/storyid/4704]
No way. I can't read German, but that has to be stamped, factory made
gear, not the home-written stuff, or marketing blurb, not reality..
I've read some bad reviews on CDRs: just a few months, under heavy use
(especially if you leave a disk in the drive for any length of time),
and really only several years even when stored in optimal conditions.
I think Ricardo Forno recently had some bad experiences.
Pete
12. Re: [OT] another floppy question
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:02:28 -0500, gertie at visionsix.com wrote:
>I use zip disks now if i need=20
>removeable media, i've never had a zip fail.
Yes, I agree. However search the web for "click of death". No panic,
just something every zip drive owner should be aware of. I'm very
happy (so far, touch wood) with my zip drive.
Pete
13. Re: [OT] another floppy question
On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:22:45 -0500, gertie at visionsix.com wrote:
>I calculated once that to archive
>win95 on paper tape would take over a year to read back in.
He he. And win XP would be?
14. Re: [OT] another floppy question
Hi Pete, you wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 20:41:34 +0200, Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de>
> wrote:
>
>> High-quality CDs and DVDs: 100-200 years (estimated).
>> [Source (in German): http://www.monitor.co.at/story.cfm/storyid/4704]
> No way. I can't read German, but that has to be stamped, factory made
> gear, not the home-written stuff, or marketing blurb, not reality..
Here is a more comprehensive soure, in English:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cdrom/cd-recordable/part4/
See "Subject: [7-5] How long do CD-Rs and CD-RWs last?"
Of course, the lifetime of CD-Rs at least depends on the quality of the
CD-R disc, and on how the disc is handled and stored.
> I've read some bad reviews on CDRs: just a few months, under heavy use
> (especially if you leave a disk in the drive for any length of time),
> and really only several years even when stored in optimal conditions.
>
> I think Ricardo Forno recently had some bad experiences.
I don't believe, that there is any *guaranteed* lifetime.
> Pete
Best regards,
Juergen
--
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15. Re: [OT] another floppy question
Me wrote:
> Hi Irv, you wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday 10 June 2003 04:51 pm, Igor wrote:
<snip>
>>> Maybe, just the hot climate of your land?
>>
>> Perhaps.
>
> Also moisture is not good, I suppose.
I was meaning "humidity".
<snip>
Best regards,
Juergen
16. Re: [OT] another floppy question
On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:02:56 +0200, Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de>
wrote:
>Here is a more comprehensive soure, in English:
>
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cdrom/cd-recordable/part4/
>
> See "Subject: [7-5] How long do CD-Rs and CD-RWs last?"
>
Thanks, very informative. I think I can summarise it as:
1) Fairly obviously, always use full round labels, handle disks with
extreme care, and store somewhere cool, dark, and dust-free.
2) Experiment with different brands until you find the best for your
hardware, climate, and shoe size. What works for one person will not
necessarily work for someone else.
3) Quality/cost/reputation are unreliable factors. There is no real
option other than doing your own tests.
Pete
17. Re: [OT] another floppy question
Hi Pete, you wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 11:02:56 +0200, Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Here is a more comprehensive soure, in English:
>>
>> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cdrom/cd-recordable/part4/
>>
>> See "Subject: [7-5] How long do CD-Rs and CD-RWs last?"
>>
> Thanks, very informative. I think I can summarise it as:
> 1) Fairly obviously, always use full round labels, handle disks with
> extreme care, and store somewhere cool, dark, and dust-free.
> 2) Experiment with different brands until you find the best for your
> hardware, climate, and shoe size.
*LOL*
> What works for one person will not
> necessarily work for someone else.
> 3) Quality/cost/reputation are unreliable factors. There is no real
> option other than doing your own tests.
After buying my CD burner, I did some tests with different CD-R blanks.
I found a brand, that worked good with my CD burner, but some weeks
later, the factory cancelled the production of this brand!
This is, what we call "modern times", isn't it? 
There is also another pitfall:
Many of the "big name" media manufacturers don't actually make their own
media. Instead, they buy from other manufacturers and stamp their logo
on the discs. Generally speaking, this isn't a bad thing, but those
companies often buy from *different* manufacturers!!
CD-R blanks labelled "BASF", are for instance produced by Ritek, CMC
Magnetics, Taiyo Yuden, Kodak, or Pioneer (this list might not be
complete).
So maybe, someone thinks s/he is testing "BASF" CD-R blanks, but
actually is testing blanks, produced by say Taiyo Yuden. Then s/he
thinks: "This is a good brand for my CD burner", goes back to the same
store one week later, and buys 100 "BASF" CD-R blanks. But this time,
s/he actually bought CD-R blanks produced by say Ritek. This is just
juggling with names.
That's one reason, why I for instance can recommend "Verbatim Data Life
Plus" CD-R blanks. They are *always* produced by Mitsubishi Chemicals,
and they were rated good in several tests, that I read.
Anyway, one should first buy only a few blanks, and test them with one's
CD burner. But in any case beware of the pitfall of name juggling!
Best regards,
Juergen
PS: I don't hold shares of Mitsubishi Chemicals. 
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