1. Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
- 724 views
Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were Object-Oriented? Please take a survey at http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2
2. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by mistertrik at hotmail.com May 14, 2003
- 682 views
Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP In short: No. In long: Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code. It's not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't have any extras hanging around that could slow it down. Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the standard function libraries. What I think Euphoria should have: structures! This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some data in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to go. It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much faster than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to point to certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this last basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data system. I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria is wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs that came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof) in the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their data to stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up trying to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code -, structures should be allowed. As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have your dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also have the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This would in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete groups. This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from the community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it could/should/would be implemented. Alright, I've finished my rant. ===================================================== .______<-------------------\__ / _____<--------------------__|=== ||_ <-------------------/ \__| Mr Trick >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey. >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100 > > >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were >Object-Oriented? > >Please take a survey at >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > > > >TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
3. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
- 673 views
You, should post this as a comment of the poll at logicsoft. Anyway, have u taken time to look at MFC source(headers)? Have u looked at java's Swing toolkit? compare them to win32 libraries we have in euphoria... I mean you create a WND Class, then you can create other controls by simply extending that class....how many Cross-platform libraries are coded using structural programming? how far have they gone? ----- Original Message ----- From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP > > In short: > > No. > > In long: > > Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code. It's > not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't have > any extras hanging around that could slow it down. > Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the standard > function libraries. > > What I think Euphoria should have: > structures! > > This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some data > in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to go. > It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much faster > than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to point to > certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this last > basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data system. > > I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria is > wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs that > came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof) in > the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their data to > stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up trying > to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code -, > structures should be allowed. > > As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have your > dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also have > the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This would > in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly > environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete groups. > > This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from the > community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it > could/should/would be implemented. > > Alright, I've finished my rant. > ===================================================== > .______<-------------------\__ > / _____<--------------------__|=== > ||_ <-------------------/ > \__| Mr Trick > > > >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk > >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com > >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey. > >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100 > > > > > >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > >Object-Oriented? > > > >Please take a survey at > >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > > > > > >TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > > > > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
4. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
- 697 views
BTW, to post a comment to the poll go here http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&file=comments to view results of the poll go here http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollID =2&mode=&order=0&thold=0 ----- Original Message ----- From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP > > In short: > > No. > > In long: > > Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code. It's > not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't have > any extras hanging around that could slow it down. > Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the standard > function libraries. > > What I think Euphoria should have: > structures! > > This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some data > in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to go. > It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much faster > than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to point to > certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this last > basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data system. > > I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria is > wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs that > came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof) in > the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their data to > stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up trying > to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code -, > structures should be allowed. > > As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have your > dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also have > the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This would > in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly > environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete groups. > > This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from the > community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it > could/should/would be implemented. > > Alright, I've finished my rant. > ===================================================== > .______<-------------------\__ > / _____<--------------------__|=== > ||_ <-------------------/ > \__| Mr Trick > > > >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk > >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com > >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey. > >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100 > > > > > >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > >Object-Oriented? > > > >Please take a survey at > >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > > > > > >TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > > > > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
5. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by mistertrik at hotmail.com May 14, 2003
- 676 views
Interesting, I got a Fatal error: Call to undefined function: opentable() in /home/pcplay/public_html/logicsoft/modules/Surveys/comments.php on line 95 When I clicked on the first link. ===================================================== .______<-------------------\__ / _____<--------------------__|=== ||_ <-------------------/ \__| Mr Trick >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> >Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:30:30 +0100 > > >BTW, to post a comment to the poll go here > >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&file=comments > >to view results of the poll go here > >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollID >=2&mode=&order=0&thold=0 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com> >To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> >Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:30 PM >Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > > Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP > > > > In short: > > > > No. > > > > In long: > > > > Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code. >It's > > not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't >have > > any extras hanging around that could slow it down. > > Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the >standard > > function libraries. > > > > What I think Euphoria should have: > > >structures! > > > > This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some >data > > in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to go. > > It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much faster > > than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to >point >to > > certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this >last > > basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data system. > > > > I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria >is > > wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs >that > > came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof) >in > > the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their data >to > > stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up >trying > > to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code >-, > > structures should be allowed. > > > > As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have >your > > dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also >have > > the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This >would > > in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly > > environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete groups. > > > > This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from the > > community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it > > could/should/would be implemented. > > > > Alright, I've finished my rant. > > ===================================================== > > .______<-------------------\__ > > / _____<--------------------__|=== > > ||_ <-------------------/ > > \__| Mr Trick > > > > > > >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk > > >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com > > >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > > >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100 > > > > > > > > >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were <snip> > >
6. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by irvm at ellijay.com May 14, 2003
- 687 views
On Wednesday 14 May 2003 09:30 am, you wrote: > > BTW, to post a comment to the poll go here > > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=3DSurveys&file=3Dcom= ments > Fatal error: Call to undefined function: opentable() in=20 /home/pcplay/public_html/logicsoft/modules/Surveys/comments.php on line 9= 5 Anyway, is a survey going to do any good? "If wishes were fishes...."
7. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
- 670 views
hmmm, seems to be a bug in phpnuke 6.5. i think i'll report this to phpnuke.org. anyway, you could still access the comment section and result of polls from the main page. 1) Go to http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com 2)From survey block...click on results 3) when the window opens, scroll to the bottom right area and you'll see a btn for posting comments. Jordah ----- Original Message ----- From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > Interesting, I got a > Fatal error: Call to undefined function: opentable() in > /home/pcplay/public_html/logicsoft/modules/Surveys/comments.php on line 95 > > When I clicked on the first link. > > ===================================================== > .______<-------------------\__ > / _____<--------------------__|=== > ||_ <-------------------/ > \__| Mr Trick > > > >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk > >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com > >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > >Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:30:30 +0100 > > > > > >BTW, to post a comment to the poll go here > > > >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&file=comments > > > >to view results of the poll go here > > > >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollI D > >=2&mode=&order=0&thold=0 > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com> > >To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:30 PM > >Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > > > > > Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP > > > > > > In short: > > > > > > No. > > > > > > In long: > > > > > > Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code. > >It's > > > not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't > >have > > > any extras hanging around that could slow it down. > > > Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the > >standard > > > function libraries. > > > > > > What I think Euphoria should have: > > > > >structures! > > > > > > This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some > >data > > > in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to go. > > > It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much faster > > > than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to > >point > >to > > > certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this > >last > > > basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data system. > > > > > > I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria > >is > > > wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs > >that > > > came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof) > >in > > > the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their data > >to > > > stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up > >trying > > > to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code > >-, > > > structures should be allowed. > > > > > > As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have > >your > > > dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also > >have > > > the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This > >would > > > in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly > > > environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete groups. > > > > > > This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from the > > > community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it > > > could/should/would be implemented. > > > > > > Alright, I've finished my rant. > > > ===================================================== > > > .______<-------------------\__ > > > / _____<--------------------__|=== > > > ||_ <-------------------/ > > > \__| Mr Trick > > > > > > > > > >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk > > > >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com > > > >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com> > > > >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100 > > > > > > > > > > > >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > <snip> > > > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
8. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
- 690 views
> Anyway, is a survey going to do any good? > "If wishes were fishes...." Well, its better than nothing. Maybe it will give pple (Open Euphoria) or RDS some reason to add stuff to the language based on the polls. > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
9. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by gertie at visionsix.com May 14, 2003
- 713 views
On 14 May 2003, at 15:06, fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > > Anyway, is a survey going to do any good? > > "If wishes were fishes...." > > Well, its better than nothing. Maybe it will give pple (Open Euphoria) or > RDS some reason to add stuff to the language based on the polls. Polls have not added stuff to RDS before. This is why so many have left Eu. Kat
10. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
- 687 views
----- Original Message ----- From: <gertie at visionsix.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > On 14 May 2003, at 15:06, fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > Anyway, is a survey going to do any good? > > > "If wishes were fishes...." > > > > Well, its better than nothing. Maybe it will give pple (Open Euphoria) or > > RDS some reason to add stuff to the language based on the polls. > > Polls have not added stuff to RDS before. This is why so many have left Eu. I don't want to leave EU when i know i didn't try to get my points across or having done nothing out-standing. Eu was fun back in the days....NOW....change is needed. > > Kat > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
11. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by euman at bellsouth.net May 14, 2003
- 685 views
{{{ --- Original Message From: <fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk>
I don't want to leave EU when i know i didn't try to get my points across or
having done nothing out-standing. Eu was fun back in the
days....NOW....change is needed.
having done nothing out-standing. Eu was fun back in the
days....NOW....change is needed.
Thats why RDS named Euphoria, Euphoria!
Euphoria leads you into this warm place of sequences and garbage collection then once you've found out that you cant do something with it, it leaves you dead cold in your tracks.....EUPHORIA
definitions may vary! - mileage may also vary! Euman
12. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by jbrown1050 at hotpop.com May 15, 2003
- 700 views
fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > Object-Oriented? > > Please take a survey at > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > I think ALL of Euphoria should have support for OO, but not require it be used in ANY part of a program. Personally, I'd only use OO where it would save on typing or help with the readability of the source code. jbrown -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You too can spend five years in prison; just distribute this program once US Senator Hollings's CBDTPA bill is passed into law: perl -e 'while(<>) { print;}'
13. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by jbrown1050 at hotpop.com May 15, 2003
- 704 views
On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 09:31:57AM -0500, gertie at visionsix.com wrote: > > On 14 May 2003, at 15:06, fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > Anyway, is a survey going to do any good? > > > "If wishes were fishes...." > > > > Well, its better than nothing. Maybe it will give pple (Open Euphoria) or > > RDS some reason to add stuff to the language based on the polls. > > Polls have not added stuff to RDS before. This is why so many have left Eu. > > Kat > Of course, polls will have a much greater effect on OpenEuphoria ... the RFC itself will be based on a voting mechanism even. Why do we need RDS to agree? If people who want to keep using Euphoria but are fed up with lack of new features in RDS Euphoria want to be heard, they now have the option of using OE instead of accepting the current Euphoria or moving away from it altogether. (The best part, is that since the official interpreter/compiler/translator (not sure which quite yet) will probably be written in OE itself ... hence an unsatified user has the option of adding a new feature themself if needed.) Hence, I think the idea of polls are far from useless. jbrown -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME |
14. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> May 15, 2003
- 686 views
It would sure make it easier to extend and have add-ons. Currently, to do most new controls you have to know the library's internals etc... However, if Euphoria is not going to be OO, then to do so for win32 comes at quite an overhead. ---------------- cheers, Derek Parnell ----- Original Message ----- From: <fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > Object-Oriented? > > Please take a survey at > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
15. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> May 15, 2003
- 712 views
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Story" <jstory at edmc.net> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: RE: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > > Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > > Object-Oriented? > > > > Please take a survey at > > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > > > Here is a website that is devoted to criticism of OOP. > > http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm This man must be a polititian. He can argue a point without reasoning. This is a very sad example of humanity. His arguments seem to based on destroying "strawman" positions and hearsay! No real evidence is actually presented or clinically examined. Who are these nameless supporters of OO and where are their actual quotations? The author seems to place many words into many mouths. I found it mildly amusing that some of his rationale against OO could just as equally apply to non-OO programming too. ---------------- cheers, Derek Parnell
16. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> May 15, 2003
- 705 views
----- Original Message ----- From: "rudy toews" <rltoews at ilos.net> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: RE: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <gertie at visionsix.com> > > To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:31 PM > > Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > > > > > On 14 May 2003, at 15:06, fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, is a survey going to do any good? > > > > > "If wishes were fishes...." > > > > > > > > Well, its better than nothing. Maybe it will give pple (Open Euphoria) > > or > > > > RDS some reason to add stuff to the language based on the polls. > > > > > > Polls have not added stuff to RDS before. This is why so many have left > > Eu. > > > > I don't want to leave EU when i know i didn't try to get my points > > across or > > having done nothing out-standing. Eu was fun back in the > > days....NOW....change is needed. > > > > > > > > Kat > > > > > > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > > > > > > > HMMMM.. the phrase "CHANGE IS NEEDED" > > My point that i want to make today is that change should be > 'confined'(?) to libraries. then people can choose to accept/modify, > build on it or ignore. if it becomes very popular then add it the main > system. > > i appreciate the work that Derek and Judith have done. and Robert C. > without reading windows manuals i can get simpler things in windows > done. but i still prefer 'core' Euphoria. Unfortunately, some requested change can only be done at the 'core' level. You just can do it using libraries. We are talking about syntax enhancements rather than functionality changes. ---------------- cheers, Derek Parnell
17. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 15, 2003
- 678 views
Thank you Derek for your comments on the issue. It seems most people round here haven't bothered to code win32 libraries and get ugly code + had to extend.(bloated). I was recently looking at the java implementation of Swing and i thought that was great. I mean,....if you create a basic class eg JPanel...you could easily extend it my overiding the default methods for painting..etc then get an Edit Control. Pple had better try coding GUI libraries then they'll understand why its needed for cleaner syntax. Most pple will turn round and say why get OO inbuilt in EU when libraries can offer it?...Has anyone tried using any of them libraries? the libraries are well coded but the output code always has bad syntax. U can't blame the authors! I think it would be best if we have a PRO euphoria that supports OO or similar. Rob, Can't you notice how many times these discussions have been repeated? lets have some change...if we cannot get it from RDS, then lets team up and get the stones rollin'. OpenEuphoria, and if i could be any help, then send me an email.. Jordah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Parnell" <ddparnell at bigpond.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 4:17 AM Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > It would sure make it easier to extend and have add-ons. Currently, to do > most new controls you have to know the library's internals etc... > > However, if Euphoria is not going to be OO, then to do so for win32 comes at > quite an overhead. > > > ---------------- > cheers, > Derek Parnell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk> > To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:46 PM > Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > > Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > > Object-Oriented? > > > > Please take a survey at > > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > > > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > > > > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
18. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 15, 2003
- 684 views
Derek, You spoke the words out of my mouth. Thanx again :) Jordah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Parnell" <ddparnell at bigpond.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Story" <jstory at edmc.net> > To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:31 AM > Subject: RE: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > > > fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were > > > Object-Oriented? > > > > > > Please take a survey at > > > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2 > > > > > > Here is a website that is devoted to criticism of OOP. > > > > http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm > > This man must be a polititian. He can argue a point without reasoning. This > is a very sad example of humanity. > > His arguments seem to based on destroying "strawman" positions and hearsay! > No real evidence is actually presented or clinically examined. Who are these > nameless supporters of OO and where are their actual quotations? The author > seems to place many words into many mouths. > > I found it mildly amusing that some of his rationale against OO could just > as equally apply to non-OO programming too. > > ---------------- > cheers, > Derek Parnell > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
19. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by Mike Nelson <MichaelANelson at WORLDNET.ATT.NET> May 15, 2003
- 701 views
Jordah wrote: <snip> > I was recently looking at the java implementation of Swing and i thought > that was great. I mean,....if you create a basic class eg JPanel...you could > easily extend it my overiding the default methods for painting..etc then get > an Edit Control. > > Pple had better try coding GUI libraries then they'll understand why its > needed for cleaner syntax. Most pple > will turn round and say why get OO inbuilt in EU when libraries can offer > it?...Has anyone tried using any of them libraries? the libraries are well > coded but the output code always has bad syntax. U can't blame the authors! </snip> While x=myObject.myMethod(theParameter) is cleaner syntax than x=call_method(myObject,"myMethod",{theParameter}) as is correct Diamond syntax, the latter is hardly unusable. I am putting the finishing touches on Diamond 3.0, with many improvements. My next project will be a preprocessor enabling dot notation. I need to figure out a notation for events--in Diamond, events are not properties or methods, they are a third thing. x.y=z means set_property(x,"y",z) x=y.z means x=get_property(y,"z") x=y.z() means x=call_method(y,"z",{}) What would be good notation for link_handler(x,"y#1",z) and raise_event(x,"y",{z}) ? (The "y#1" in link_handler is because events can be overloaded based on the number of parameters--it is needed because x might also have a y#0 or y#2 event.) I'm leaning towards x!y(1)=z and x!y(z) Any suggestions? -- Mike Nelson
20. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 15, 2003
- 685 views
Matt wrote: > Fair enough. But that doesn't mean that there's not a different way to do > it. Of course, the only thing I know about Swing or JPanels is how to spell > them. It's not obvious to me why an OO implementation is necessarily better > or prettier than a non-OO implementation, though I do admit that GUI's tend > to lend themselves to OO. > > In fact, I'm writing one right now (wxEuphoria), which actually sits on top > of a ton of OO (C++) code, but I don't have your understanding, or perhaps > we don't share the same definition of cleaner syntax. One of the points in > the article was that the author thought problems were often best oriented > around tasks (verbs), as opposed to things (nouns). In general, this fits > my way of thinking. It's often clearer to me when a function sits on its > own than embedding within a class. Of course, this is probably a very > personal preference, but I prefer: > > do_it( to_this ) > > over: > > to_this.do_it() Matt, think of it this way. You are attempting to write a cross-platform GUI library. To make this library readily cross-platform you'll have to code your own widgets...eg lists,menus With time you go to look at all your widgets and see a lot of repeated code, then u have to clean it up. Clean up ends up introducing bugs, with time, u go to notice that it gets annoying trying to modularise your code as it grows bigger...etc. With OO, i would create simply a class with eg default properties,virtual functions,methods. Say, CWnd Class like in MFC, then to all other controls eg when coding the button class. i would simply create a class that inherits from the CWnd class, then overide certain methods and have a button control. I dunno how to explain it since i'm not an experienced OO user but i think u get what i'm getting at...(i think polymophism). Anyway, have u used MFC? See how easy it is? what is better, is that, coding ur custom controls is simply involves extending certain classes eg CWnd Another issue is when you have function names/proc names that are similar but different in function...eg Incase you look at win32lib, If you look at his setText() proc, u'll notice he uses the if switch lots to adjust for it to work for different controls eg If class=Menu then --code here elsif class = window then --code here end if wouldn't it be easier to do eg in java JFrame mw = new JFrame(); JMenu me = new JMenu(); mw.setText("blah"); me.setText("xxg"); mw.setVisible(1); > The frequency of discussions doesn't mean anything. The fact that there is > rarely a real conclusion or consensus reached says a lot more. Even your > own poll has 50% (one vote being mine) saying that OO should be left out of > Euphoria (and only 25% with a strong opinion in favor)--at the time I write > this, anyway. True,.....the votes speak for themselves...but i'm not convinced yet > If you're interested in OpenEuphoria, you can do a search for OpenEu on > Topica and on Sourceforge. > > Matt Lewis > > > > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! > >
21. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> May 15, 2003
- 710 views
--- Derek Parnell wrote: " It [OOP] would sure make it [Win32lib] easier to extend and have add-ons. Currently, to do most new controls you have to know the library's internals etc... " " However, if Euphoria is not going to be OO, then to do so for win32 comes at QUIET AN OVERHEAD. " ------------------- Considering that an entry level pc now runs with a 2gighz cpu and that the Eu2C translator is very economically priced - should the OOP "OVERHEAD" still be considered prohibitive? --- Mike Nelson <MichaelANelson at WORLDNET.ATT.NET> wrote: > > I am putting the finishing touches on Diamond 3.0, > with many improvements. What are some of the improvements, Mike? > My next project will be a preprocessor enabling dot > notation. > > I need to figure out a notation for events--in > Diamond, events are not > properties or methods, they are a third thing. > > x.y=z means set_property(x,"y",z) > x=y.z means x=get_property(y,"z") > x=y.z() means x=call_method(y,"z",{}) > > What would be good notation for > link_handler(x,"y#1",z) and raise_event(x,"y",{z}) ? > > (The "y#1" in link_handler is because events can be > overloaded based on the > number of parameters--it is needed because x might > also have a y#0 or y#2 > event.) > > I'm leaning towards > > x!y(1)=z and x!y(z) > > Any suggestions? > > -- Mike Nelson
22. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by Juergen Luethje <j.lue at gmx.de> May 15, 2003
- 696 views
Hello Ken, you wrote: > --- Derek Parnell wrote: > > " It [OOP] would sure make it [Win32lib] easier to > extend and have add-ons. Currently, to do > most new controls you have to know the library's > internals etc... " > > " However, if Euphoria is not going to be OO, then to > do so for win32 comes at QUIET AN OVERHEAD. " > ------------------- > > Considering that an entry level pc now runs with > a 2gighz cpu and that the Eu2C translator is very > economically priced - should the OOP "OVERHEAD" still > be considered prohibitive? The CPU of my computer runs with 400 MHz, and I don't like to buy a new computer every year. Other people have even slower machines. Best regards, Juergen -- /"\ ASCII ribbon campain | |\ _,,,---,,_ \ / against HTML in | /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ X e-mail and news, | |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' / \ and unneeded MIME | '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
23. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by andy at systemzone.freeserve.co.uk May 15, 2003
- 703 views
At 12:22 AM 5/16/03 +0200, you wrote: <snip> >The CPU of my computer runs with 400 MHz, and I don't like to buy >a new computer every year. Other people have even slower machines. </snip> How does an IBM 6576 / 35P running at 75Mhz sound? My most reliable machine (touch wood and it only cost me 10 pounds sterling second user. I have selected Euphoria for my current project because it runs quickly on old hardware and you can get the DOS32 version onto a boot floppy. The project is a disk wiping utility. All I have done is select an appropriate tool for the task in hand. The fact that I think it is great and have found several other uses (past and future) for it is a bonus. As the saying goes: Your milage may vary. Regards, Andy Cranston.
24. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by jbrown1050 at hotpop.com May 16, 2003
- 732 views
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 09:49:30AM -0700, Mike Nelson wrote: <snip> > > While > > x=myObject.myMethod(theParameter) > > is cleaner syntax than > > x=call_method(myObject,"myMethod",{theParameter}) > > as is correct Diamond syntax, the latter is hardly unusable. I do agree, but a cleaner syntax makes for easier time programming, and easier time reading the source code (for newbies at least ;]). > > I am putting the finishing touches on Diamond 3.0, with many improvements. > My next project will be a preprocessor enabling dot notation. Sounds great. > > I need to figure out a notation for events--in Diamond, events are not > properties or methods, they are a third thing. Hmm ... how many other OO languages have events? how many non-OO langs have it for that matter? and what syntax do they use? > > x.y=z means set_property(x,"y",z) > x=y.z means x=get_property(y,"z") > x=y.z() means x=call_method(y,"z",{}) > Sounds natural enough. ;] > What would be good notation for > link_handler(x,"y#1",z) and raise_event(x,"y",{z}) ? > > (The "y#1" in link_handler is because events can be overloaded based on the > number of parameters--it is needed because x might also have a y#0 or y#2 > event.) > > I'm leaning towards > > x!y(1)=z and x!y(z) > > Any suggestions? Why use special symbols? Perhaps these are more readable and more obvious: 1. link_handler(x, y(a), z) raise_event(x, y, z) this is basicly the above routines with some minor clean up in it. y(a) lists the number of parameters, y() is y#0, y(a) is y#1, y(a,b) is y#2, etc. and, raise_event() is meant to look like it has variable parameters. Naturally, the preprocessor would convert y(x) to "y#1" and raise_event(a, b, c, d, e) into raise_event(a, "b", {c, d, e}) 2. link handler z to x.y(a) raise event x.y(z) this is a more altered syntax, basicly removes the functions and instead adds new keywords. Looks more natural as wel. 3. x.link_handler(y(a), z) x.raise_event(y, z) this is basicly 1. but altered so that the functions look like methods of the object x. I'd prefer 2. myself, it seems the most natural of all 3 i've suggested and also more natural than the awkward 'x!y()' syntax you proposed. > > -- Mike Nelson > jbrown -- /"\ ASCII ribbon | http://www.geocities.com/jbrown1050/ \ / campain against | Linux User:190064 X HTML in e-mail and | Linux Machine:84163 /*\ news, and unneeded MIME |
25. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
- Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> May 18, 2003
- 759 views
----- Original Message ----- From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com> Subject: RE: Euphoria being OO Survey. > > One thing... > > OO explanations are always, ALWAYS demonstrated with things like "Vehicle", > and "Car" and "Truck" children.... > > Nobody makes programs about Trucks and Cars unless they are programming a > simulation, or a database with objects in it that may be one or t'other. And what, nobody does this? BZZZZTTT! Wrong answer. I used to work for a vehicle parts manufacturer and I did write programs for them. I also worked for other manufacturers such as Motorola. This was before the days of OO. But I can see now that OO techniques could have saved us heaps. >Can > anyone give an example of what sort of objects (one parent, 2 or more > children) would fit the bill for a *normal* sort of project... ie not one of > the above examples, and demonstrate the use of inheritance? The eaxmples above ARE normal. These are REAL LIFE WORKING EXAMPLES! Not contrived to make OO seem good. What it does show though is that OO is very well suited to simulations. For example, role-playing games and chemical bonding simulations. OO is a style of coding. This style does suit those problems that can be described in terms of things and they way they behave. True, this is not all programming problems. There are some types of situations that OO does not suit. > I don't see any advantage to using object oriented anything... That is a pity. OO is NOT evil. It is a style of coding that suits some situations better than others. >Even things > like making sure persistent variables stay private is easy... just put them > & their procedures into a separate include file - probably a good idea > anyway. This is one of the aspects of OO. Glad you agree its a neat idea. >And things like data protection are handled by default in Euphoria - > no pass-by-reference. What has PBR got to do with it? Scope is the issue. I can still 'accidently' effect data if all data is global, even if I only use Pass-By-Value. > I've heard plenty of theoretical situations where the paradigms of OO shine. > However, I'm yet to see a real-world (read: useful) example that could > demonstrate anything swaying me towards OO. Well you seem to believe that things like vehicles are not important/useful items to be the subject of programming, so I suspect that I'd have a hard time giving you anything that you'd see as useful OO examples. If I was writing a serious role-playing game, I would choose OO techniques for most of the system. Because it really would be useful to model things and behaviours. OO is a good world modelling techinque. BTW, notice that I have not referred to any OO Languages here. I see OO as a way of organising your code. Some programming language make that easier than others. ---------------- cheers, Derek Parnell