OpenEuphoria

1. Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
• 724 views

Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were
Object-Oriented?

Please take a survey at
http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2

3. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
• 673 views

You, should post this as a comment of the poll at logicsoft.
Anyway, have u taken time to look at MFC source(headers)? Have u looked at
java's Swing toolkit?
compare them to win32 libraries we have in euphoria...

I mean you create a WND Class, then you can create other controls by simply
extending that class....how many Cross-platform libraries are coded using
structural programming? how far have they gone?


----- Original Message -----
From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.


>
> Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP
>
> In short:
>
> No.
>
> In long:
>
> Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code. It's
> not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't have
> any extras hanging around that could slow it down.
> Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the standard
> function libraries.
>
> What I think Euphoria should have:
>
structures!
>
> This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some
data
> in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to go.
> It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much faster
> than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to point
to
> certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this last
> basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data system.
>
> I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria is
> wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs that
> came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof) in
> the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their data to
> stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up
trying
> to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code -,
> structures should be allowed.
>
> As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have your
> dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also
have
> the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This would
> in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly
> environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete groups.
>
> This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from the
> community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it
> could/should/would be implemented.
>
> Alright, I've finished my rant.
> =====================================================
> .______<-------------------\__
> / _____<--------------------__|===
> ||_    <-------------------/
> \__| Mr Trick
>
>
> >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk
> >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
> >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
> >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey.
> >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100
> >
> >
> >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were
> >Object-Oriented?
> >
> >Please take a survey at
> >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2
> >
> >
> >TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
> >
> >
>
>
> TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
>
>

5. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by mistertrik at hotmail.com May 14, 2003
• 676 views

Interesting, I got a
Fatal error: Call to undefined function: opentable() in 
/home/pcplay/public_html/logicsoft/modules/Surveys/comments.php on line 95

When I clicked on the first link.

=====================================================
.______<-------------------\__
/ _____<--------------------__|===
||_    <-------------------/
\__| Mr Trick





>From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk
>Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
>To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
>Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:30:30 +0100
>
>
>BTW, to post a comment to the poll go here
>
>http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&file=comments
>
>to view results of the poll go here
>
>http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollID
>=2&mode=&order=0&thold=0
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com>
>To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:30 PM
>Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
>
>
> > Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP
> >
> > In short:
> >
> > No.
> >
> > In long:
> >
> > Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code. 
>It's
> > not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't 
>have
> > any extras hanging around that could slow it down.
> > Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the 
>standard
> > function libraries.
> >
> > What I think Euphoria should have:
> >
>structures!
> >
> > This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some
>data
> > in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to go.
> > It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much faster
> > than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to 
>point
>to
> > certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this 
>last
> > basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data system.
> >
> > I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria 
>is
> > wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs 
>that
> > came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof) 
>in
> > the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their data 
>to
> > stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up
>trying
> > to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code 
>-,
> > structures should be allowed.
> >
> > As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have 
>your
> > dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also
>have
> > the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This 
>would
> > in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly
> > environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete groups.
> >
> > This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from the
> > community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it
> > could/should/would be implemented.
> >
> > Alright, I've finished my rant.
> > =====================================================
> > .______<-------------------\__
> > / _____<--------------------__|===
> > ||_    <-------------------/
> > \__| Mr Trick
> >
> >
> > >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk
> > >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
> > >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
> > >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey.
> > >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100
> > >
> > >
> > >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were
<snip>

>
>

7. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 14, 2003
• 670 views

hmmm,
seems to be a bug in phpnuke 6.5. i think i'll report this to phpnuke.org.
anyway, you could still access the comment section and result of polls from
the main page.

1) Go to http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com
2)From survey block...click on results
3) when the window opens, scroll to the bottom right area and you'll see a
btn for posting comments.

Jordah
----- Original Message -----
From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.


>
> Interesting, I got a
> Fatal error: Call to undefined function: opentable() in
> /home/pcplay/public_html/logicsoft/modules/Surveys/comments.php on line 95
>
> When I clicked on the first link.
>
> =====================================================
> .______<-------------------\__
> / _____<--------------------__|===
> ||_    <-------------------/
> \__| Mr Trick
>
>
> >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk
> >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
> >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
> >Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
> >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:30:30 +0100
> >
> >
> >BTW, to post a comment to the poll go here
> >
> >http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&file=comments
> >
> >to view results of the poll go here
> >
>
>http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&op=results&pollI
D
> >=2&mode=&order=0&thold=0
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com>
> >To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 1:30 PM
> >Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.
> >
> >
> > > Just to ignite some discussion on the list, I'll reply to this. :oP
> > >
> > > In short:
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > > In long:
> > >
> > > Not entirely. There is a simplicity in having code that is just code.
> >It's
> > > not instantiable, it's not a descendant of something, and it doesn't
> >have
> > > any extras hanging around that could slow it down.
> > > Personally I loathe the way that Java works. Especially with the
> >standard
> > > function libraries.
> > >
> > > What I think Euphoria should have:
> > >
> >structures!
> > >
> > > This allows for "pseudo" object orientedness. If you want to have some
> >data
> > > in easily recogniseable chunks, an array of structures is the way to
go.
> > > It's easily recognisable as a discrete entity, and could run much
faster
> > > than complicated multidimensional arrays with constants declared to
> >point
> >to
> > > certain objects in the array (What I have to do now :o(. ) With this
> >last
> > > basic data type, it would be complete euphoria's wonderful data
system.
> > >
> > > I know that the freedom to dynamically mess with sequences in euphoria
> >is
> > > wonderful, but the flip side to that is the introduction of odd bugs
> >that
> > > came about because of a pair of oddly placed curlies (or lack thereof)
> >in
> > > the depths of an algorithm. I think that for people who WANT their
data
> >to
> > > stay in fixed order - especially for the situations where you end up
> >trying
> > > to maintain it just as much as you are debugging the rest of your code
> >-,
> > > structures should be allowed.
> > >
> > > As far as I see it, you could even have the best of both worlds. Have
> >your
> > > dynamic sequences, with the ability to put anything anywhere, but also
> >have
> > > the ability to assign a structure to a member of that sequence. This
> >would
> > > in my mind make it far easier to implement a more object-friendly
> > > environment, and simplify managing data that belongs in discrete
groups.
> > >
> > > This of course, is just my opinion. I would love to hear debate from
the
> > > community about what their thoughts on this issue are, and how it
> > > could/should/would be implemented.
> > >
> > > Alright, I've finished my rant.
> > > =====================================================
> > > .______<-------------------\__
> > > / _____<--------------------__|===
> > > ||_    <-------------------/
> > > \__| Mr Trick
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk
> > > >Reply-To: EUforum at topica.com
> > > >To: EUforum <EUforum at topica.com>
> > > >Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey.
> > > >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:46:38 +0100
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were
> <snip>
>
> >
>
>
> TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
>
>

9. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by gertie at visionsix.com May 14, 2003
• 713 views

On 14 May 2003, at 15:06, fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote:

> 
> 
> > Anyway, is a survey going to do any good?
> > "If wishes were fishes...."
> 
> Well, its better than nothing. Maybe it will give pple (Open Euphoria) or
> RDS some reason to add stuff to the language based on the polls.

Polls have not added stuff to RDS before. This is why so many have left Eu.

Kat

11. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by euman at bellsouth.net May 14, 2003
• 685 views

{{{ --- Original Message From: <fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk>

Thats why RDS named Euphoria, Euphoria!

Euphoria leads you into this warm place of sequences and garbage collection then once you've found out that you cant do something with it, it leaves you dead cold in your tracks.....EUPHORIA

definitions may vary! - mileage may also vary! Euman

13. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by jbrown1050 at hotpop.com May 15, 2003
• 704 views

On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 09:31:57AM -0500, gertie at visionsix.com wrote:
> 
> On 14 May 2003, at 15:06, fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Anyway, is a survey going to do any good?
> > > "If wishes were fishes...."
> > 
> > Well, its better than nothing. Maybe it will give pple (Open Euphoria) or
> > RDS some reason to add stuff to the language based on the polls.
> 
> Polls have not added stuff to RDS before. This is why so many have left Eu.
> 
> Kat
> 

Of course, polls will have a much greater effect on OpenEuphoria ... the RFC
itself will be based on a voting mechanism even. Why do we need RDS to agree?
If people who want to keep using Euphoria but are fed up with lack of new
features in RDS Euphoria want to be heard, they now have the option of using
OE instead of accepting the current Euphoria or moving away from it altogether.
(The best part, is that since the official interpreter/compiler/translator (not
sure which quite yet) will probably be written in OE itself ... hence an
unsatified user has the option of adding a new feature themself if needed.)

Hence, I think the idea of polls are far from useless.

jbrown

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15. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> May 15, 2003
• 712 views

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Story" <jstory at edmc.net>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: RE: Euphoria being OO Survey.


>
>
> fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were
> > Object-Oriented?
> >
> > Please take a survey at
> > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2
>
>
>   Here is a website that is devoted to criticism of OOP.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/tablizer/oopbad.htm

This man must be a polititian. He can argue a point without reasoning. This
is a very sad example of humanity.

His arguments seem to based on destroying "strawman" positions and hearsay!
No real evidence is actually presented or clinically examined. Who are these
nameless supporters of OO and where are their actual quotations? The author
seems to place many words into many mouths.

I found it mildly amusing that some of his rationale against OO could just
as equally apply to non-OO programming too.

----------------
cheers,
Derek Parnell

17. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk May 15, 2003
• 678 views

Thank you Derek for your comments on the issue. It seems most people round
here haven't bothered to code win32 libraries and get ugly code + had to
extend.(bloated).

I was recently looking at the java implementation of Swing and i thought
that was great. I mean,....if you create a basic class eg JPanel...you could
easily extend it my overiding the default methods for painting..etc then get
an Edit Control.

Pple had better try coding GUI libraries then they'll understand why its
needed for cleaner syntax. Most pple
will turn round and say why get OO inbuilt in EU when libraries can offer
it?...Has anyone tried using any of them libraries? the libraries are well
coded but the output code always has bad syntax. U can't blame the authors!
I think it would be best if we have a PRO euphoria that supports OO or
similar. Rob, Can't you notice how many times these discussions have been
repeated? lets have some change...if we cannot get it from RDS, then lets
team up and get the stones rollin'. OpenEuphoria, and if i could be any
help, then send me an email..

Jordah
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Parnell" <ddparnell at bigpond.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.


>
> It would sure make it easier to extend and have add-ons. Currently, to do
> most new controls you have to know the library's internals etc...
>
> However, if Euphoria is not going to be OO, then to do so for win32 comes
at
> quite an overhead.
>
>
> ----------------
> cheers,
> Derek Parnell
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <fred at jordah.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:46 PM
> Subject: Euphoria being OO Survey.
>
>
> > Do you think euphoria for win32 would be better off if it were
> > Object-Oriented?
> >
> > Please take a survey at
> > http://logicsoft.pcplayground.com/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=2
> >
> >
> > TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
> >
> >
>
>
> TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE!
>
>

19. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by Mike Nelson <MichaelANelson at WORLDNET.ATT.NET> May 15, 2003
• 701 views

Jordah wrote:

<snip>

> I was recently looking at the java implementation of Swing and i thought
> that was great. I mean,....if you create a basic class eg JPanel...you
could
> easily extend it my overiding the default methods for painting..etc then
get
> an Edit Control.
>
> Pple had better try coding GUI libraries then they'll understand why its
> needed for cleaner syntax. Most pple
> will turn round and say why get OO inbuilt in EU when libraries can offer
> it?...Has anyone tried using any of them libraries? the libraries are well
> coded but the output code always has bad syntax. U can't blame the
authors!

</snip>

While

x=myObject.myMethod(theParameter)

is cleaner syntax than

x=call_method(myObject,"myMethod",{theParameter})

as is correct Diamond syntax, the latter is hardly unusable.

I am putting the finishing touches on Diamond 3.0, with many improvements.
My next project will be a preprocessor enabling dot notation.

I need to figure out a notation for events--in Diamond, events are not
properties or methods, they are a third thing.

x.y=z   means set_property(x,"y",z)
x=y.z   means x=get_property(y,"z")
x=y.z() means x=call_method(y,"z",{})

What would be good notation for
link_handler(x,"y#1",z) and raise_event(x,"y",{z}) ?

(The "y#1" in link_handler is because events can be overloaded based on the
number of parameters--it is needed because x might also have a y#0 or y#2
event.)

I'm leaning towards

x!y(1)=z   and   x!y(z)

Any suggestions?

-- Mike Nelson

21. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by Ken Rhodes <ken_rhodes30436 at yahoo.com> May 15, 2003
• 710 views

--- Derek Parnell wrote:

" It [OOP] would sure make it [Win32lib] easier to  
extend and have add-ons. Currently, to do
most new controls you have to know the library's
internals etc... "

" However, if Euphoria is not going to be OO, then to
do so for win32 comes at QUIET AN OVERHEAD.  "
-------------------

Considering that an entry level pc now runs with
a 2gighz cpu and that the Eu2C translator is very
economically priced - should the OOP "OVERHEAD" still
be considered prohibitive?


--- Mike Nelson <MichaelANelson at WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
wrote:
> 
> I am putting the finishing touches on Diamond 3.0,
> with many improvements.

What are some of the improvements, Mike?

> My next project will be a preprocessor enabling dot
> notation.
> 
> I need to figure out a notation for events--in
> Diamond, events are not
> properties or methods, they are a third thing.
> 
> x.y=z   means set_property(x,"y",z)
> x=y.z   means x=get_property(y,"z")
> x=y.z() means x=call_method(y,"z",{})
> 
> What would be good notation for
> link_handler(x,"y#1",z) and raise_event(x,"y",{z}) ?
> 
> (The "y#1" in link_handler is because events can be
> overloaded based on the
> number of parameters--it is needed because x might
> also have a y#0 or y#2
> event.)
> 
> I'm leaning towards
> 
> x!y(1)=z   and   x!y(z)
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -- Mike Nelson

23. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by andy at systemzone.freeserve.co.uk May 15, 2003
• 703 views

At 12:22 AM 5/16/03 +0200, you wrote:
<snip>
>The CPU of my computer runs with 400 MHz, and I don't like to buy
>a new computer every year. Other people have even slower machines.
</snip>

How does an IBM 6576 / 35P running at 75Mhz sound?  My most reliable
machine (touch wood  and it only cost me 10 pounds sterling second user.

I have selected Euphoria for my current project because it runs quickly on
old hardware and you can get the DOS32 version onto a boot floppy.  The
project is a disk wiping utility.

All I have done is select an appropriate tool for the task in hand.  The
fact that I think it is great and have found several other uses (past and
future) for it is a bonus.

As the saying goes: Your milage may vary.

Regards,

Andy Cranston.

25. Re: Euphoria being OO Survey.

• Posted by Derek Parnell <ddparnell at bigpond.com> May 18, 2003
• 759 views

----- Original Message -----
From: <mistertrik at hotmail.com>
To: "EUforum" <EUforum at topica.com>
Subject: RE: Euphoria being OO Survey.


>
> One thing...
>
> OO explanations are always, ALWAYS demonstrated with things like
"Vehicle",
> and "Car" and "Truck" children....
>
> Nobody makes programs about Trucks and Cars unless they are programming a
> simulation, or a database with objects in it that may be one or t'other.

And what, nobody does this? BZZZZTTT! Wrong answer. I used to work for a
vehicle parts manufacturer and I did write programs for them. I also worked
for other manufacturers such as Motorola. This was before the days of OO.
But I can see now that OO techniques could have saved us heaps.

>Can
> anyone give an example of what sort of objects (one parent, 2 or more
> children) would fit the bill for a *normal* sort of project... ie not one
of
> the above examples, and demonstrate the use of inheritance?


The eaxmples above ARE normal. These are REAL LIFE WORKING EXAMPLES! Not
contrived to make OO seem good.

What it does show though is that OO is very well suited to simulations. For
example, role-playing games and chemical bonding simulations.

OO is a style of coding. This style does suit those problems that can be
described in terms of things and they way they behave. True, this is not all
programming problems. There are some types of situations that OO does not
suit.

> I don't see any advantage to using object oriented anything...

That is a pity. OO is NOT evil. It is a style of coding that suits some
situations better than others.

>Even things
> like making sure persistent variables stay private is easy... just put
them
> & their procedures into a separate include file - probably a good idea
> anyway.

This is one of the aspects of OO. Glad you agree its a neat idea.

>And things like data protection are handled by default in Euphoria -
> no pass-by-reference.

What has PBR got to do with it? Scope is the issue. I can still 'accidently'
effect data if all data is global, even if I only use Pass-By-Value.

> I've heard plenty of theoretical situations where the paradigms of OO
shine.
> However, I'm yet to see a real-world (read: useful) example that could
> demonstrate anything swaying me towards OO.

Well you seem to believe that things like vehicles are not important/useful
items to be the subject of programming, so I suspect that I'd have a hard
time giving you anything that you'd see as useful OO examples.

If I was writing a serious role-playing game, I would choose OO techniques
for most of the system. Because it really would be useful to model things
and behaviours.

OO is a good world modelling techinque.

BTW, notice that I have not referred to any OO Languages here. I see OO as a
way of organising your code. Some programming language make that easier than
others.

----------------
cheers,
Derek Parnell