1. What's Holding Euphoria Back
Intrigued by references to an existing E language I fired up my Search
Engines and found that there were a lot of programming languagues out
there which I had never heard of.
I was more surprised by the number of 'established' languages I'd
forgotten about which are not commonly used; Modula, Coral, Ada etc.
All these are very credible languages with an established heritage but
they are just not commonly used; C / C++, lately Java, and Visual Basic
( from UK job ads it would appear ) are still the main languages in
commercial use.
So if those languages 'don't make the grade' what chance for Euphoria ?
Looking at it dispassionately; there is nothing holding Euphoria back.
What's stopping Euphoria being used along side C / C++ / Java / VB ?
The same things which have prevented Pascal, Delphi and many other good
languages from getting there as well.
Exactly what that is is difficult to say; undoubtedly big money from MS
and Sun have helped the languages they have backed, C itself is perhaps
a little more difficult to explain, it would seem to be legacy and
familiarity alone which has kept it rolling on - it's certainly not the
best language out there ( although it does get the job done ).
Unless there's some compelling reason to make the world's programmers
suddenly want to use Euphoria; it is likely to remain as just another
obscure language outside the mainstream.
PS : If we can't rename Euphoria as E++, can we call it !E ( Not E ) ?
<big grin>
2. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
Bown, John <John.Bown at UK.ORIGIN-IT.COM> wrote:
>Intrigued by references to an existing E language I fired up my Search
>Engines and found that there were a lot of programming languagues out
>there which I had never heard of.
>
Many of these are "specialized" languages for unique uses (ex: JCL). A few
have evolved into more general purpose usage despite this (ex: prolog).
Others have become more-or-less obsolete (ex: Dartmouth [the original]
BASIC).
Go to http://cuiwww.unige.ch/langlist to see a lot of these.
(**ROB: They need to update Euphoria there. **)
Also see http://www.byte.com/art/9509/sec7/art19.htm
>I was more surprised by the number of 'established' languages I'd
>forgotten about which are not commonly used; Modula, Coral, Ada etc.
>
ADA is still heavily used by the US gov/mil since it allows high levels of
"compartmentalization" on projects.
>All these are very credible languages with an established heritage but
>they are just not commonly used; C / C++, lately Java, and Visual Basic
>( from UK job ads it would appear ) are still the main languages in
>commercial use.
>
>So if those languages 'don't make the grade' what chance for Euphoria ?
>
[snip]
You might be surprised to know that APL (the "It's all Greek to me"
language) was once the industry leader. Its major competitor was COBOL and
we all know who won that battle. In fact, APL has a lot in common with
Euphoria when I think about it. Dynamic data structures are the heart & sole
of both languages and both started as interpreters only.
Rob, is there a theoretical link here ?
For the APL uninitiated a file of data could be sorted using a program of
about 150 **lines** of COBOL or about 7 **keystrokes** of APL!
In the past APL lost support for two reasons. The first was a practical
matter that APL was **very** memory hungry in a time when memory was very
expensive and VM did not yet exist (hadn't been invented yet). The second
was more political so to speak... MIS executives (most of whom couldn't even
write a BASIC program) looked at programs in COBOL and said "Looks like
English... Lots of details... This is a good language." The same execs
looked at APL and said "Its too simple... It can't be good because I can't
understand any of it." DOH!!
Euphoria has the same battle... It may become popular with programmers but
it is the MIS department heads that must begin to accept it for it to become
an "accepted" language. No small task. But APL is making a comeback and
REXX, another interpreted language is being heavily used in mainframe
environments so there is hope.
The one truly significant hurdle is that it only runs on a DOS/WIN platform.
I would bet that a lot of Macintosh programmers & OS/2 programmers would
like this language if they could try it on their native OS. The Linux port
is also a good step. If programs could be written in Euphoria instead of
PERL it could become very hot.
3. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
At 13:13 2/16/99 +0000, Bown, John wrote:
>Intrigued by references to an existing E language I fired up my Search
>Engines and found that there were a lot of programming languagues out
>there which I had never heard of.
There was a book on programming languages by Jean Sammet
that described something like 75 different languages and
it was written more than 30 years ago! The number of useful,
working, non-toy, programming languages nowadays must be huge.
It is a fascinating and highly creative subject. Are there any
of us who haven't secretly thought about designing our own
'perfect' language or operating system, or who are hoping that
someone else will change their language to suit us (wink,wink).
--
Don Groves
4. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
At 03:21 PM 16-02-1999 , you wrote:
>Euphoria has the same battle... It may become popular with programmers but
>it is the MIS department heads that must begin to accept it for it to become
>an "accepted" language. No small task. But APL is making a comeback and
>REXX, another interpreted language is being heavily used in mainframe
>environments so there is hope.
To me, what's holding Euphoria back is database connectivity. The day we
can (easily) connect to an ODBC data source we'll be welcome to the major
leagues.
Enterprise computing is oriented to the client/server & distributed
computing model, mainframes are dead ;)
My suggestions are:
a) Include in the documentation/examples how to use network resources
(under the supported platforms), winsock and other related technologies.
b) Develop a wrapper library for ODBC and TCP/IP communications.
Regards,
Daniel Berstein
daber at pair.com
5. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
Please tell me if you think im wrong but the only thing holding E back
is the people who use it.....
Grape
>
>Intrigued by references to an existing E language I fired up my Search
>Engines and found that there were a lot of programming languagues out
>there which I had never heard of.
>
>I was more surprised by the number of 'established' languages I'd
>forgotten about which are not commonly used; Modula, Coral, Ada etc.
>
>All these are very credible languages with an established heritage but
>they are just not commonly used; C / C++, lately Java, and Visual Basic
>( from UK job ads it would appear ) are still the main languages in
>commercial use.
>
>So if those languages 'don't make the grade' what chance for Euphoria ?
>
>Looking at it dispassionately; there is nothing holding Euphoria back.
>
>What's stopping Euphoria being used along side C / C++ / Java / VB ?
>
>The same things which have prevented Pascal, Delphi and many other good
>languages from getting there as well.
>
>Exactly what that is is difficult to say; undoubtedly big money from MS
>and Sun have helped the languages they have backed, C itself is perhaps
>a little more difficult to explain, it would seem to be legacy and
>familiarity alone which has kept it rolling on - it's certainly not the
>best language out there ( although it does get the job done ).
>
>Unless there's some compelling reason to make the world's programmers
>suddenly want to use Euphoria; it is likely to remain as just another
>obscure language outside the mainstream.
>
>PS : If we can't rename Euphoria as E++, can we call it !E ( Not E ) ?
><big grin>
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6. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
- Posted by Adam Weeden <theskaman at MINDSPRING.COM>
Feb 16, 1999
-
Last edited Feb 17, 1999
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charset="iso-8859-1"
>It is a fascinating and highly creative subject. Are there any
>of us who haven't secretly thought about designing our own
>'perfect' language or operating system, or who are hoping that
>someone else will change their language to suit us (wink,wink).
I myself have thought at length about this (even making a semi-working model
of my own OS. But the problem is instead of innovating you just
conglomerate what you know and in the end it feels uncomfortable or
unoriginal (the OS i was writing ended up looking exactly like Linux).
Granted some people are able to introduce innovative systems. (plaudits to
Rob on this one)
Adam Weeden
WeedenSoft Technologies
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BE5A06.DAC50080
name="Adam W Weeden.vcf"
7. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
- Posted by Adam Weeden <theskaman at MINDSPRING.COM>
Feb 16, 1999
-
Last edited Feb 17, 1999
------=_NextPart_000_0053_01BE5A07.8DE1A9C0
charset="iso-8859-1"
>Please tell me if you think im wrong but the only thing holding E back
>is the people who use it.....
>
>Grape
Wouldn't this make you part of the problem?
Adam Weeden
WeedenSoft Technologies
------=_NextPart_000_0053_01BE5A07.8DE1A9C0
name="Adam W Weeden.vcf"
8. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
- Posted by Grape Vine <chat_town at HOTMAIL.COM>
Feb 16, 1999
-
Last edited Feb 17, 1999
Yes it does...but i am trying to use E i na productive way... but then
we get in to whos idea of productiveness do we use? mine? yours? anyone
from RDS??? E will be a hit even if people dont make multi million
dollor program(but i think that that can be done)... Who decides that
something was held back or not? what scale are me/you/them/us using to
decide if it was a good program that helped or a bad one that failed? I
cant but help think that the people who say " Well it cant do this so
its not ass good as this laguage" are dumb people...Why not ask if some
one has not already fraced that problem? if so you can use there souce
and/or ask for there help...I asked if anyone has used UDP packets with
E...no one answerd...i am guessing no one has...its not a widly used
protocol but i figured i should try.. I am looking up all the info i can
on it in the RFC's...Ill do my best but im not sure just how to
proceed...if i decided to just go use C or something that would make
me(and thus E) a failure...not because i decided to use some thing else
but because i decided to give up...On me, the program, and the people
who i could have asked for help... I never clamed to be a great
programmer...i think that some of what i think to make is good..i have a
problem making it to the end..i change projects and put things on a back
burnner...i have 4 or 5 things going on at once..i do not know how to do
it any other way...I cant stand still for to long...i go nuts...yes i
know it may(and it might be) sound that i say one thing then turn around
and say some thing totaly differnt but i dont mean to...I have not
master the english language yet and things do not come out just as i
mean them...A) cuz i say them wrong and B) words no longer are used
correctly...
Grape
P.S....im a blaber mouth..=)
>>Please tell me if you think im wrong but the only thing holding E back
>>is the people who use it.....
>>
>>Grape
>
>
>Wouldn't this make you part of the problem?
>
>Adam Weeden
>WeedenSoft Technologies
>
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9. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
- Posted by Greg Phillips <i.shoot at REDNECKS.COM>
Feb 16, 1999
-
Last edited Feb 17, 1999
I don't know how much this will affect Euphoria in the wide scheme of
things, but I just convinced the computer studies teacher at my school
to use Euphoria as a basis for the course, instead of Pascal. Pascal
will also be used, as will be Java, because I also convinced him to buy
a good book on programming theory, not just programming, and to use a
few different languages to kind of enforce theory ideas.
Greg
--
Greg Phillips
i.shoot at rednecks.com
http://euphoria.server101.com
--
Useless fact of the day:
All 50 states are listed across the top of the Lincoln Memorial on the
back of the $5
bill.
10. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
>
>Please tell me if you think im wrong but the only thing holding E back
>is the people who use it.....
>
>Grape
>
Perhaps it would be fairer to say, "The people who *don't* use it" ?
11. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
>
>I don't know how much this will affect Euphoria in the wide scheme of
>things, but I just convinced the computer studies teacher at my school
>to use Euphoria as a basis for the course, instead of Pascal. Pascal
>will also be used, as will be Java, because I also convinced him to buy
>a good book on programming theory, not just programming, and to use a
>few different languages to kind of enforce theory ideas.
Excellent, award yourself at least two gold stars for initiative. This
is a fine example of how to spread The Word About Euphoria to a wider
audience.
I would also suggest that you include C ( or C++ ) in the course as well
( despite my hate of it ), simply because it is the main programming
language in use commercially, being able to contrast and compare would
reveal its ( and other languages ) strong and weak points. The choice
of language for a particular application depends on which have which
strengths / weaknesses [ Note the debate on Structures recently ].
All the best with the course.
12. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
I agree 100% too... let the most people have a chance to play with it, and
many of
them will try to keep the tool they find the most easy/clear/fast to use.
----------
From: Bown, John
To: EUPHORIA at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
Date: Wednesday 17 February 1999 11:40
>
>I don't know how much this will affect Euphoria in the wide scheme of
>things, but I just convinced the computer studies teacher at my school
>to use Euphoria as a basis for the course, instead of Pascal. Pascal
>will also be used, as will be Java, because I also convinced him to buy
>a good book on programming theory, not just programming, and to use a
>few different languages to kind of enforce theory ideas.
Excellent, award yourself at least two gold stars for initiative. This
is a fine example of how to spread The Word About Euphoria to a wider
audience.
I would also suggest that you include C ( or C++ ) in the course as well
( despite my hate of it ), simply because it is the main programming
language in use commercially, being able to contrast and compare would
reveal its ( and other languages ) strong and weak points. The choice
of language for a particular application depends on which have which
strengths / weaknesses [ Note the debate on Structures recently ].
All the best with the course.
13. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
If this is a first year comp-sci class that is really cool !
This prompts an interesting idea: RDS can steal a page from Apple Inc and
take Euphoria to the "Battle for the Hearts & Minds"... Most Mac enthusiasts
will admit that if not for falling in love with the little smiling cpu in
school they never would have pressed management for getting them at work.
Apple gave away thousands of Macs (and Apple][ units before that) to
schools. I think Apple called it their "First Love" strategy. :)
Rob: If you are interested in promoting Euphoria through schools contact me
via private email for a special distribution strategy that will protect your
interests while allowing you to give the software to schools freely.
PS: Greg, be sure your teacher touches on OOP design theory near the end of
the class. If he is teaching Pascal then Delphi would be a good way to
demonstrate as the syntax is obvious. Also "The Waite Group" publishes an
excellent text ["Object Oriented Programming in C++"] that is really a great
OOP tutorial first and a great C++ tutorial as well.
14. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
>Please tell me if you think im wrong but the only thing holding E back
>is the people who use it.....
>
>Grape
Without some explanation, this seems REALLY silly. It is like saying that
Jewish people are responsible for the holocaust or that racial minorities
are responsible for racial discrimination, or that Ralph Nader is
responsible for corporate evils. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the thrust
of your message (if there be one).
Additionally, constructive input would presumably give members of the list
some sort of concrete recommendation(s) to remedy perceived difficulties.
--W
15. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
What i mean when i said that is that if you think something is holding
you back then there is something holding you back...
Grape
>>
>>Please tell me if you think im wrong but the only thing holding E back
>>is the people who use it.....
>>
>>Grape
>>
>Perhaps it would be fairer to say, "The people who *don't* use it" ?
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16. Re: What's Holding Euphoria Back
Hi, I just had to reply to this.
This is a perfect example of "a failure to communicate".
I often notice the shortcommings of the English language, (maybe all
languages), to communicate a persons thoughts. On the Web, this problem
seems to be greater than in person. Many times it is just the reader
jumping to a fast conclusion. Much of what we write seems un-ambiguous but is.
I just downloaded Euphoria. I am excited by what I have seen so far.
-Somebody-
At 04:03 PM 2/17/99 PST, you wrote:
>What i mean when i said that is that if you think something is holding
>you back then there is something holding you back...
>
>Grape
>
>>>
>>>Please tell me if you think im wrong but the only thing holding E back
>>>is the people who use it.....
>>>
>>>Grape
>>>
>>Perhaps it would be fairer to say, "The people who *don't* use it" ?
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
